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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 15:32:48 GMT
Ok, I'm creating this thread because now that Homestuck is over, we have additional insights into the whole retcon business; marked with [SPOILERS] because the fact that the post-retcon timeline is confirmed to actually be the True Alpha Timeline and no additional history rewriting is taking place is a spoiler in itself.
What new insights, you could ask? Well, the fact that THE RETCON WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO HAPPEN (at least from Paradox Space's point of view; this doesn't mean Hussie had it planned in advance, nor does this actually matter).
Proof: Caliborn is confirmed to be born in the new universe created by the post-retcon B2 session, which couldn't possibly have been created in the pre-retcon B2 session, which was completely screwed up; also, Gamzee was killed in [S] Game Over, so he couldn't be there to raise the young cherub. Additionally, Caliborn turns into Lord English during the Masterpiece, where all the eigth kids (plus Gamzee) are present; but in the pre-retcon timeline Dave, Rose, Jake and Jane (and Gamzee) were killed, so that's another reason why that timeline couldn't be the True One; however, this doesn't really matter, because the important thing here is the existence of Caliborn, not that of Lord English.
Why am I saying this? Because nobody actually ever interacted with Lord English before the retcon (apart from some destroyed ghosts), while instead several people interacted with Caliborn: the Alpha kids via chat, and John via fisticuffs. The fact that they interacted with him means that he had to exist in the first place, exactly like the fact that Jade interacted with Jake meant that the post-scratch universe was already in the plans of Paradox Space, and the Beta kids were always destined to scratch their session.
So, the retcon was definitely not a way to circumvent Paradox Space's plans and break causality and time loops; it was instead already accounted for, and indeed required, exactly like the scratches; it was, one could say, sort of a scratch^2: a mechanism used by Paradox Space when a whole continuum needs a hard reset, but more than a single universe and a single session are involved, so a "simple" scratch wouldn't be enough.
Anyway, this raises several interesting questions, because we now know that the post-retcon timeline is the True Alpha Timeline, and it clashes with several events mentioned in [S] Cascade and the Scratch intermission; most notably, Vriska's clock can't have been smashed by Spades Slick (alghough it could still have been destroyed in a middle position, which would make Vriska unconditionally immortal just like Caliborn), and Doc Scratch can't have gone on a lengthy tirade about her duel with Bec Noir, because she was knocked out by John and never had to fight it; also, of course, Gamzee wasn't able to talk with Doc Scratch during the Critical Moment, due to being locked in the fridge. However, these are all fairly minor modifications, and no one of them would probably result in enough differences to prevent the events in [S] Cascade from happening.
TL;DR: The retcon was already planned by Paradox Space, and no one ever managed to actually escape predestination.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 13, 2016 15:36:29 GMT
Caliborn's universe could've been created in some version of the pre-retcon reality; it's a common theory that in the so-called ringless Game Over timeline where John took the Ring of Life before Aranea could, the cherub universe was created. That would match up with Caliborn viewing the pre-retcon alpha session with talking about the alpha kids' sprites.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 15:40:47 GMT
Caliborn's universe could've been created in some version of the pre-retcon reality
Any other version of the reality would still have required some retconning. Without any retcon, the pre-retcon timeline would have reached its natural conclusion and Caliborn would have never existed at all (which, ironically, would have actually solved the whole Lord English issue).
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 13, 2016 15:41:51 GMT
Caliborn's universe could've been created in some version of the pre-retcon reality
Which version? Any other version would still have required some retconning. Without any retcon, the pre-retcon timeline would have reached its natural conclusion and Caliborn would have never existed at all (which, ironically, would have actually solved the whole Lord English issue).
I said, the ringless Game Over timeline.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 15:44:18 GMT
Which version? Any other version would still have required some retconning. Without any retcon, the pre-retcon timeline would have reached its natural conclusion and Caliborn would have never existed at all (which, ironically, would have actually solved the whole Lord English issue).
I said, the ringless Game Over timeline. And where would it come from, without John's retcons?
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 13, 2016 16:08:36 GMT
I said, the ringless Game Over timeline. And where would it come from, without John's retcons?
Before retconning Vriska back to life, John zapped to the session to take the Ring of Life before it could get stolen; that created a separate timeline from both the one where Game Over happened and the current retconned timeline.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 16:21:40 GMT
And where would it come from, without John's retcons?
Before retconning Vriska back to life, John zapped to the session to take the Ring of Life before it could get stolen; that created a separate timeline from both the one where Game Over happened and the current retconned timeline. Yes, but that still required John to get his retcon powers in the first place and alter the timeline; that was still a retcon, although a shorter and simpler one and not directed by Terezi. The point is not how many timelines John created in the process: the point is, he was always meant to get those powers and change the timeline, because the original pre-retcon timeline wouldn't have resulted in the creation of Caliborn. So, even if it seems John got reality-altering powers not bound by usual time-travel rules, he was still following the rules and the plans of Paradox Space; he never actually went outside the tracks he was always meant to follow.
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Post by melonlord on Apr 15, 2016 4:46:23 GMT
If nothing else, the retcons were required to initiate the Masterpiece, without which Lord English never would have existed.
Narratively speaking, it seems that the retcons as a story idea just...did not work out at all. This is, practically play-by-play, the worst-case scenario laid out by the skeptics when this whole Vriska Timeline business started. The retcons were used as a magic "fix everything" button with no real consequence. (Lonely Jade doesn't count, because it never impacted her character or the plot in any meaningful way, and she seems to have gotten over it after meeting with another John.) Despite the ominous overtones of using a powerful wish-granting artifact that's already been accounted for by the villain, nothing ever comes of these implications; it's a deal with the devil, but with no devil. Vriska was able to somehow resolve/bury everyone's problems with her presence alone (except her own, which were simply ignored), and the arcs of the Game Over cast were abandoned completely. Her plan went off without a hitch, everyone (for certain values of "everyone") got a happy ending, and we are left with the poignant moral of "Fixing your personal problems with magic bullshit is A-OK and will have no true negative effect on your life."
Maybe if it were handled in a different way after Game Over, or even just during/after Collide, it could have been a neat thing about the consequences of cheating your way to victory, and of taking the easy way out. But, in its current incarnation, it just turned into a bad idea with little payoff.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 15, 2016 5:51:13 GMT
If nothing else, the retcons were required to initiate the Masterpiece, without which Lord English never would have existed. Strictly speaking, no. There's nothing to suggest that the humans couldn't have just used more mundane means to get to Caliborn's Session to pick a fight with him. I agree with all this. I would have been fine with this Retcon if it had all blown up in their faces like Hussie's Trickster/Mario speech foreshadowed. But even then, there were much better ways it could have gone down. Take for instance, the key Retcon of saving Vriska: For all of Act 6 Terezi's problem was her belief that she made the wrong choice in killing Vriska. When we see her Retcon Plan is to (not so)subtly influence Terezi in the time leading up that decision, the logical conclusion is that Terezi is giving herself a second chance to make the right choice. But Nope. Apparently the answer is to have some Windy Asshole blitz through and completely remove the decision from her. I'm sure that will solve Terezi's self-esteem issues about being unable to make good choices...
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Post by melonlord on Apr 15, 2016 7:44:36 GMT
Strictly speaking, no. There's nothing to suggest that the humans couldn't have just used more mundane means to get to Caliborn's Session to pick a fight with him. This page www.mspaintadventures.com/ACT6ACT6.php?s=6&p=009318 seems to say it was in fact retcon power. Though, technically speaking, regular ol' time travel seems like it could have achieved the same thing, and I'm not even sure how canon the Masterpiece is at this point. This is another thing that really bothered me about the retcon arc. It says some pretty unhealthy things about Terezi's character and mindset that she honestly thought that isolating herself from the people who cared about her and glomming on to someone who she KNOWS is dangerous and toxic out of guilt and misplaced childhood nostalgia (?) was the best course of action. And we see the outcome of this when we get back to the session and she's completely insecure and tangled in an incredibly one-sided dependent relationship with Vriska, to the apparent exclusion of all else. We see first hand that magicking away one's issues does not work. It seems like Hussie actually TOOK PAINS to set up an interesting conflict where Terezi learns that clinging to her past, and attaching herself to someone who refuses to grow up, is an unhealthy thing, and that, painful as it is, she needs to let go of past guilt and trust her own agency. And then the other shoe never drops. There is no resolution for her. Her issues are buried for the sake of the plot, and we never hear of them again. And I'm left sitting here wondering where the hell the confident, self-motivated troll we met in Act 4 went. ...well that kind of got away from retcons, didn't it. But I guess that's my point; it wasn't an inherently terrible idea. It actually could have been an interesting and fulfilling one that taught the characters some good lessons. But he utterly failed to deliver the payoff for the setup. EDIT: Heck, we even had Terezi: Remem8er, a flash entirely composed of Vriska and Terezi being cute as kids. How cathartically painful, for Terezi and for us, would it be for her to reject Vriska after that, letting go of the past for the harsh reality of what Vriska's become? How many different 'growing up" themes would that fulfill? There's so much potential ALREADY THERE if he'd just delivered on it. It feels silly and presumptuous to make a wishlist of what should have happened, but I cannot fathom why he'd put this setup in place and then not do anything with it, unless he just ran out of time or energy or patience.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 15, 2016 8:51:34 GMT
Strictly speaking, no. There's nothing to suggest that the humans couldn't have just used more mundane means to get to Caliborn's Session to pick a fight with him. This page www.mspaintadventures.com/ACT6ACT6.php?s=6&p=009318 seems to say it was in fact retcon power. Though, technically speaking, regular ol' time travel seems like it could have achieved the same thing, and I'm not even sure how canon the Masterpiece is at this point. This is another thing that really bothered me about the retcon arc. It says some pretty unhealthy things about Terezi's character and mindset that she honestly thought that isolating herself from the people who cared about her and glomming on to someone who she KNOWS is dangerous and toxic out of guilt and misplaced childhood nostalgia (?) was the best course of action. And we see the outcome of this when we get back to the session and she's completely insecure and tangled in an incredibly one-sided dependent relationship with Vriska, to the apparent exclusion of all else. We see first hand that magicking away one's issues does not work. It seems like Hussie actually TOOK PAINS to set up an interesting conflict where Terezi learns that clinging to her past, and attaching herself to someone who refuses to grow up, is an unhealthy thing, and that, painful as it is, she needs to let go of past guilt and trust her own agency. And then the other shoe never drops. There is no resolution for her. Her issues are buried for the sake of the plot, and we never hear of them again. And I'm left sitting here wondering where the hell the confident, self-motivated troll we met in Act 4 went. ...well that kind of got away from retcons, didn't it. But I guess that's my point; it wasn't an inherently terrible idea. It actually could have been an interesting and fulfilling one that taught the characters some good lessons. But he utterly failed to deliver the payoff for the setup. EDIT: Heck, we even had Terezi: Remem8er, a flash entirely composed of Vriska and Terezi being cute as kids. How cathartically painful, for Terezi and for us, would it be for her to reject Vriska after that, letting go of the past for the harsh reality of what Vriska's become? How many different 'growing up" themes would that fulfill? There's so much potential ALREADY THERE if he'd just delivered on it. It feels silly and presumptuous to make a wishlist of what should have happened, but I cannot fathom why he'd put this setup in place and then not do anything with it, unless he just ran out of time or energy or patience. I agree with everything here. I have said a lot in the past on why I hate the retcon, a the major reason being that it threw a lot of character arcs out the window for shallower ones and it ditched relationships that were around since the beginning of the comic. Life doesn't work like that. You can't fix your problems; you have to overcome them. The majority of character arcs went backwards, with Vriska, Terezi and Gamzee being the most affected. Karkat's arc got affected quite a bit too because he never became Moirails with Gamzee and didn't spend the first 2 years completely alone on the meteor. And the fact that everything went down so well in the retcon doesn't help ether. Gamzee at least should have escaped from the fridge and caused a bit of trouble rather than losing his character arc completely. I would have greatly preferred something similar to Dirk: Unite Synchronization that brings everyone back to life rather than a retcon that fixes everything and making a lot of Act 6 a huge waste of time in the process. Homestuck has in the past been about characters getting into rather horrid situations which include death and Hussie solving them all by being a genius. This has happened to the Alpha kids and Cascade. The fact that Hussie decided to take the easy route this time doesn't make sense. I know that he can do better than this. He has proved it many times before. And as for Terezi, I honestly never really liked her relationship with Vriska. We never saw what they were like when they were good friends. We have only seem them on bad terms. Terezi seemed far more closer with other characters like Dave, Karkat and even Nepeta and Sollux. And I honestly didn't like how she decided to ditch those relationships in favour of one person who is rather toxic to hang around with and stuck to her like glue until the end of the comic. When Terezi started becoming obsessive over Vriska it just didn't make sense to me because I could never see their chemistry like what she had with other characters. So basically I just cannot like the post-retcon characters because of the fact that their character arcs went backwards, especially Terezi's, Vriska's and Gamzee's. All the post-retcon character's problems got resolved. They didn't go through as much shit as the pre-retcon characters did and their plan to defeat all the villains went far too well. And they didn't even earn this happy ending; another cast went through hell and made it happy for them. I honestly think the pre-retcon characters deserved to live their lives in the new universe a lot more than the post-retcon characters, and this is what bugs me. The fact that there's a possibility that they're double dead too doesn't help ether. Pre-retcon Karkat's last thoughts were that he failed to save Terezi probably.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 15, 2016 11:23:19 GMT
The retcon was another one of those things that I hoped would be addressed in the ending but wasn't. I've been hoping a lot of stuff for the epilogue, including addressing the retcon—do you guys think such hopes are too high?
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 15, 2016 13:09:16 GMT
If nothing else, the retcons were required to initiate the Masterpiece, without which Lord English never would have existed. Everyone seems to be missing the point I raised in my first post in this thread: in the original Game Over timeline there was no way to possibly complete the session, thus Caliborn couldn'have ever existed, because his existence started on future Earth; also, all 8 kids are required for the Masterpiece, while instead several of them were dead. All of the character stuff is interesting, and I agree with many considerations; but the point is, the retcons were always meant to happen, and they never actually allowed anyone to escape predestination, just like a scratch seems to be a way out from an unwinnable session but was always instead already accounted for, and indeed required. John didn't get some sort of crazy "escape the narrative" power; he still followed a pre-established path, exactly like everyone else.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 15, 2016 14:50:01 GMT
I don't fully understand what sort of point you're trying to make. You claim that with the ending, it's confirmed that the retcon was just as predestined as other paradox space stuff as if it's a new revelation that wasn't already quite clear.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 15, 2016 15:12:04 GMT
I don't fully understand what sort of point you're trying to make. You claim that with the ending, it's confirmed that the retcon was just as predestined as other paradox space stuff as if it's a new revelation that wasn't already quite clear. Well, it wasn't; lots of people assumed the retcon was the ultimate "f**k off" to Paradox Space and predestination... while instead it only served to fulfill another, bigger timeloop.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 15, 2016 15:18:37 GMT
I don't fully understand what sort of point you're trying to make. You claim that with the ending, it's confirmed that the retcon was just as predestined as other paradox space stuff as if it's a new revelation that wasn't already quite clear. Well, it wasn't; lots of people assumed the retcon was the ultimate "f**k off" to Paradox Space and predestination... while instead it only served to fulfill another, bigger timeloop. What loop does it fulfill exactly?
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 15, 2016 15:38:11 GMT
Well, it wasn't; lots of people assumed the retcon was the ultimate "f**k off" to Paradox Space and predestination... while instead it only served to fulfill another, bigger timeloop. What loop does it fulfill exactly? The one of creating Caliborn and Lord English, which would not have existed in the original Game Over timeline.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 15, 2016 15:40:43 GMT
What loop does it fulfill exactly? The one of creating Caliborn and Lord English, which would not have existed in the original Game Over timeline. Yeah, but you're acting like that is a SUPER NEW ASTOUNDING REVELATION which it isn't. The new universe was obviously going to be created and it was already pretty strongly implied for a while that the cherubs grew up in the universe the kids created. Even now it's still only strongly implied that that's the case.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 15, 2016 15:57:51 GMT
The one of creating Caliborn and Lord English, which would not have existed in the original Game Over timeline. Yeah, but you're acting like that is a SUPER NEW ASTOUNDING REVELATION which it isn't. The new universe was obviously going to be created and it was already pretty strongly implied for a while that the cherubs grew up in the universe the kids created. Even now it's still only strongly implied that that's the case. People have been theorizing for a while that the timeline we have been looking at since the retcon could possibly be doomed, or just a vision, or anyway prone to be rewritten again, to prevent the creation of Lord English altogether (that was the most common hypothesis about how to get rid of him: prevent him from existing in the first place); instead, we have now confirmation that the current timeline is the Real Alpha, that no additional rewriting will take place and that it will indeed lead to the creation of Lord English. We have confirmation that the retcon was part of a greater time loop, that it was always meant to happen, and that John's powers never actually defied Paradox Space's predestination.
This is quite a revelation, because we had been directed to believe that John's powers were extra-canon and were able to rewrite reality itself, without being costrained by the standard timeloop bullshit which locks down Time players; if that was the case, he COULD have actually killed Caliborn before he became Lord English (or just could have prevented him from being born at all), without causing a paradox and dooming the timeline. Instead, this is not the case and John remained firmly on track just like everyone else, even when he was retconning things like crazy.
So, the Big Revelation is that there's actually no escape from predestination: even crazy retcon powers won't allow you to escape your destiny, because the path you're bound to follow already includes them.
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Post by imglasses on Apr 16, 2016 3:32:26 GMT
If nothing else, the retcons were required to initiate the Masterpiece, without which Lord English never would have existed. Everyone seems to be missing the point I raised in my first post in this thread: in the original Game Over timeline there was no way to possibly complete the session, thus Caliborn couldn'have ever existed, because his existence started on future Earth; also, all 8 kids are required for the Masterpiece, while instead several of them were dead. We know that there's a pre-retcon version of Caliborn and a post-retcon version of Caliborn, because we've seen at least one conversation where Caliborn had a pre-retcon conversation which differed from his post-retcon conversation. The pre-retcon timeline still had a new battlefield in Skaia, it had a genesis tadpole in the volcano, and Earth had already been retrieved in time. The Condesce was still alive in the pre-retcon timeline, and she's not the kind of person to give up after millions of years of planning. She had the Ring of Life, and she could have used it to revive Jane, who could have revived everyone else the Condesce needed. Then she could have finished the session herself. I don't think it's impossible for the pre-scratch session to have been completed; arguably, it must have been somehow completed. There's a theory that the pre-retcon Caliborn is the artist, and post-retcon Caliborn is Lord English. I'm not saying the retcons aren't already accounted for, though. John's "stable retcon loop" shows that. I just think the pre-retcon session may have actually been completed.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 16, 2016 3:48:32 GMT
I think one of the things I'm annoyed with is that we never saw the outcome of the game being completed pre-retcon. I really wanted to see what would have happened if it got completed. It could have worked, since all deaths would have been prevented if Aranea didn't get the ring. Plus if the glitches weren't happening that would have helped the characters a lot. The Masterpiece may have happened in that timeline, but it never got addressed.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 16, 2016 16:32:40 GMT
The pre-retcon timeline still had a new battlefield in Skaia, it had a genesis tadpole in the volcano, and Earth had already been retrieved in time. The Condesce was still alive in the pre-retcon timeline, and she's not the kind of person to give up after millions of years of planning. She had the Ring of Life, and she could have used it to revive Jane, who could have revived everyone else the Condesce needed. Then she could have finished the session herself. I don't think it's impossible for the pre-scratch session to have been completed What about the planets wrecked in the fight between Condy and Aranea? I think four wrecked Lands are more than enough to stop the Ultimate Alchemy from happening, even if all players got somehow revived. No, that's exactly my point; there is no need for the pre-retcon timeline to lead to the creation of the new universe, if the retcon was already planned by Paradox Space all along; just like there is no need for a pre-scratch session to be won (and it must indeed not be won) when a scratch is scheduled to take place.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 16, 2016 16:33:52 GMT
I think one of the things I'm annoyed with is that we never saw the outcome of the game being completed pre-retcon. I really wanted to see what would have happened if it got completed. It could have worked, since all deaths would have been prevented if Aranea didn't get the ring. Plus if the glitches weren't happening that would have helped the characters a lot. The Masterpiece may have happened in that timeline, but it never got addressed. Aranea not getting the ring would still require a retcon, although a minimal one; in the original timeline she just got the ring, period (and havoc ensued).
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 16, 2016 16:38:14 GMT
I still don't think the retcon itself was a bad idea.
But now that Homestuck is over and we have learned the retcon was Hussie's idea of what the comic's final climax should be, I'm less satisfied about it.
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Post by yggdrasilsyeoman on Apr 16, 2016 19:22:35 GMT
Strictly speaking, no. There's nothing to suggest that the humans couldn't have just used more mundane means to get to Caliborn's Session to pick a fight with him. This page www.mspaintadventures.com/ACT6ACT6.php?s=6&p=009318 seems to say it was in fact retcon power. Though, technically speaking, regular ol' time travel seems like it could have achieved the same thing, and I'm not even sure how canon the Masterpiece is at this point. This is another thing that really bothered me about the retcon arc. It says some pretty unhealthy things about Terezi's character and mindset that she honestly thought that isolating herself from the people who cared about her and glomming on to someone who she KNOWS is dangerous and toxic out of guilt and misplaced childhood nostalgia (?) was the best course of action. And we see the outcome of this when we get back to the session and she's completely insecure and tangled in an incredibly one-sided dependent relationship with Vriska, to the apparent exclusion of all else. We see first hand that magicking away one's issues does not work. It seems like Hussie actually TOOK PAINS to set up an interesting conflict where Terezi learns that clinging to her past, and attaching herself to someone who refuses to grow up, is an unhealthy thing, and that, painful as it is, she needs to let go of past guilt and trust her own agency. And then the other shoe never drops. There is no resolution for her. Her issues are buried for the sake of the plot, and we never hear of them again. And I'm left sitting here wondering where the hell the confident, self-motivated troll we met in Act 4 went. ...well that kind of got away from retcons, didn't it. But I guess that's my point; it wasn't an inherently terrible idea. It actually could have been an interesting and fulfilling one that taught the characters some good lessons. But he utterly failed to deliver the payoff for the setup. EDIT: Heck, we even had Terezi: Remem8er, a flash entirely composed of Vriska and Terezi being cute as kids. How cathartically painful, for Terezi and for us, would it be for her to reject Vriska after that, letting go of the past for the harsh reality of what Vriska's become? How many different 'growing up" themes would that fulfill? There's so much potential ALREADY THERE if he'd just delivered on it. It feels silly and presumptuous to make a wishlist of what should have happened, but I cannot fathom why he'd put this setup in place and then not do anything with it, unless he just ran out of time or energy or patience. Wow. You nailed it for me here. It's comforting to know that others out there were just as invested in and mislead by this narrative trajectory - y'know? Because right know, I dunno about you, but I just feel so... Poisoned. By the retcon, and its interplay with the ending. I keep thinking about Homosuck... First, of how goddamned hilarious it was. But second, of the message it seemed to send. "Caliborn hates Homestuck. Or, at least, he hates how it's told. Complex imagery, bait-and-switch narrative mindfucks, bizarre random antics, relevance for each and every one of the thousands of characters and sentences in this beautiful mess... He can't stand that stuff. "Caliborn doesn't have the patience for Homestuck, just like he doesn't have the patience to Grow Up without magicking himself into, in his view, the ultimate Mary Sue. He doesn't understand this story, he doesn't understand humanity, and he always never will. "But YOU, dear readers... YOU like Homestuck. Because after all this, YOU are still reading. And that doesn't necessarily make you 'better' than anyone else. It just means you will be rewarded." I firmly believed this to be The Point, up til the moment Act 7 ended and the retcon was revealed as The Only Way Out, Exactly The Way It Went. Now I'm so confused. The style and theme of HS was utterly reversed in its final moments. Readers like me are punished, like LE, for being "stuck in the story." Which, as I said... Just tastes like poison. Please, someone, tell me I'm wrong.
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