|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 19, 2017 22:50:02 GMT
I've been reading Homestuck for a little while now and enjoying it immensely. Although I found that after the scratch, things just weren't as good. I finally got to Caliborn's "porn" demands of dirk, after which he kills Caliope. I was so disgusted I did a quick search to see how important he is to the story (in hopes of skipping pages that include him), and it turns out that not only is he one of THE most important characters in the story, he only ever gets worse. And worse. And worse. It also turns out Jade (my favorite character) goes bad and then kills herself, and the ending overall is confusing and unsatisfying.
I don't want to trudge through another 3K pages if it's going to be about Caliborn, following the cast of alpha kids I don't care about, just to see the characters I do care about meet unfortunate fates for an unhappy ending. I'm pretty much done. However, I would still like to participate in the community to celebrate acts 1-5, create fanventures and play games (MSPARP, Hivestuck, Overseer 2). I would also like to know how it ends, just to satisfy my own curiosity. There's a crapton of stuff left, so I was just hoping that maybe someone here could share with me the important bits.
I don't want to turn this into a discussion on my tastes or whether I'm a true fan or not, because I really do enjoy Homestuck and my tastes are quite fine, thank you. I've just kind of reached a point where I feel it won't be worth it to follow the story any further, because there'll be no entertainment in it. And that's the point of comics anyway, isn't it?
|
|
inspiredsimji
Gritty Midget
Posts: 263
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by inspiredsimji on Mar 19, 2017 22:57:13 GMT
Honestly, that's a fantastic question. The ending left basically everything unresolved vis-a-vis Lord English and most other conflicts. The surviving humans and trolls beat the alpha kids' session and pass through the door into the new universe, and that's basically it. It was very unsatisfactory.
But hey, on the bright side, there are a lot of people who also think Homestuck went to shit after act 5, including yours truly. So I don't think anyone is going to jump down your throat about it.
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 19, 2017 23:01:10 GMT
Cool. Thanks a whole lot.
Yeah, that's a really bummer ending, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who was unhappy with things post-scratch.
|
|
|
Post by ten 11 on Mar 19, 2017 23:25:40 GMT
Most people actually think Caliborn is a great character.
|
|
|
Post by melonlord on Mar 20, 2017 1:25:43 GMT
Well, not sure how much of this you already picked up (it's been a long time since I read act 6) but here's a basic crash course for the endgame:
-The kids arrive in the session at the end of three years, and are complete emotional wrecks for various reasons. The Condesce (former troll empress, now LE's slave) mind-controls Jade and Jane and sets up a bunch of stuff to get control of the new genesis frog for herself.
-Meanwhile, Vriska's ghost leads a team of troll ghosts on a mission to find Lord English's secret weakness in the dreambubbles. John joins them while asleep and ends up getting the power to change the comic itself from a glowy artifact thing.
-Game Over happens. The kids and a bunch of bad guys (Including Jack English, a version of Jack Noir possessed by lil cal; and Aranea, a pre-scratch ghost version of Mindfang who came back to life by convoluted means) all fight each other, and most of them die horribly. The only survivors are Roxy, John, and Terezi.
-John gets directions from Terezi on how to go back and fix the timeline with his new story changing powers (which are basically time travel that can't create doomed timelines). Terezi gives him a list of things to change, and then dies. The only significant one is that he prevents Terezi from killing Vriska on the meteor.
-John goes back to the "present" with roxy and finds the timeline drastically changed, mostly due to Vriska's influence. The big differences being that everybody is less dead and less emotionally wrecked. Everyone has a big reunion, then they go off to fight a bunch of bosses and win this time in another big flash.
-Meanwhile, Vriska steals the glowy artifact thing from her pre-retcon ghost self (it's...complicated) and goes to fight Lord English in the furthest ring.
-There's a big finale cutscene where we get some flashes of life on New Earth, Vriska does...something...with the artifact, and Caliborn gets his invincibility powers and starts on the path to becoming LE. (Caliborn is young Lord English, by the way.) The green sun is imploded into a black hole, but it doesn't really affect anything.
And, uh. That's it. We don't really see what the artifact did or what happened to LE. None of the character arcs really got finished off either except Dave's, which REALLY made that 500+ pages of awkward teenage romance feel worth it. Afterwards there's a not-epilogue epilogue credits sequence with more flashes of life on new earth. Rebuilding civilization, troll species rebirth, rose and kanaya getting married, general happy ending stuff.
There's also the Snapalogue, a side series of mini-stories on New Earth told through snapchat photos. It's in the middle of an arc about Jane and is on indefinite hiatus.
Supposedly a real epilogue's coming that people say will fix the holes in the ending. Supposedly.
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Mar 20, 2017 2:36:54 GMT
Hoo boy. Well, having just made a post celebrating that different parts of Homestuck could be appreciated individually of each other, I'm certainly not about to cast you out for having an opinion that, suffice it to say, is echoed by many around here, and opposed boisterously by myself. And per your request, I won't make any judgments or think less of you because we don't agree. But I would like to ask you a favor. I think it'd be cool if you didn't spend your time here agreeing with everyone about how much Act 6 sucks. I'm sorry it disturbed you so much you couldn't read through it anymore. But if you can find it in your heart, maybe give it a second chance some time. Open yourself up to the opinions of those who feel differently about Act 6, the B2 gang, and Caliborn, and see if your mind changes. If it doesn't that's fine, Homestuck just isn't going to be for everybody. But keep the door open, if at all possible. But that's future stuff, for when you've had time to think about it. About the ending, obviously the big stuff has been addressed already by others. Basically, the heroes succeed. All our remaining living protagonists meet up together in the flesh, bond with one another, then defeat the remaining obstacles to fulfill their purpose. Things do end pretty ambiguously, but..... well, maybe it's better not to say anything. Honestly, you can probably just skip to the end of Homestuck and see it for yourself. Say, maybe... around here or so. Or really, the last few flashes are all hosted on youtube, so you could just watch them there if you wanted. As you no doubt already know, everyone has thoughts on the nature of the ending. I think maybe it's better for you to see for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 20, 2017 3:14:47 GMT
Thank you, Babdit. I'll keep your advice in mind. I'm aware of the people who enjoy act 6, and especially Caliborn, and I will do my best not to duster sect them. My choice is entirely my own.
Also, I would like to say that I think the Alpha kids are pretty good characters. I just felt a bit tired of getting to know another main cast.
I might still try it in the future. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Mar 20, 2017 5:02:02 GMT
An important addition to melonLord's summary that they forgot: After the sequence in which John undoes Vriska's death, we switch to Caliborn's perspective again and he tells us of future events in which the 8 humans have the genius idea of trying to fight Caliborn after he's gained his invincibility powers(3 guesses as to how that turns out) So instead Dirk tries to use his Prince of Heart powers to destroy Caliborn's soul, but even that's too strong so he opts to imprison it in Lil Cal. In the process Gamzee and Arquiussprite(Dirk's sprite made from Equius' body and Dirk's AR Glasses) get in the way, so they go in Lil Cal too, and that fusion of souls is what Lord English actually is. Then Roxy tries to Void-obliterate the doll to kill English for good, but instead of being properly erased, that just put him in universal hammerspace, so whenever someone conjures/summons up a Lil Cal doll Ex Nihilo(such as what Gamzee did to Dave in late Act 5), Lord English's soul goes with it. That's why Lord English erupts from Doc Scratch whose made of Lil Cal, and that's why various characters talk about Lil Cal watching/talking to them, because Lord English was in there the whole time(and also explains English's 'already here' schtick since Lil Cal was there since the beginning of the story.) EDIT: Oh also, during the failed fight against Caliborn, he traps John, Rose, Dave and Jade in the House-JuJu-Retcon-thingy. So the fact that we don't get to see what the device does at the end is mad all the more annoying for the reason that the main cast's wellbeing, nay, their very existence depends on it.
|
|
|
Post by Blaperile on Mar 20, 2017 9:39:35 GMT
I've been reading Homestuck for a little while now and enjoying it immensely. Although I found that after the scratch, things just weren't as good. I finally got to Caliborn's "porn" demands of dirk, after which he kills Caliope. I was so disgusted I did a quick search to see how important he is to the story (in hopes of skipping pages that include him), and it turns out that not only is he one of THE most important characters in the story, he only ever gets worse. And worse. And worse. To be honest, it really depends on what you mean by "worse". The first time we saw Caliborn I got pretty disgusted by his actions too and really didn't like his character either. But it's only after he's killed Calliope that he gets properly introduced and gets a lot of focus on him, and then we see a lot more interesting sides to him that aren't as disgusting. He gets hilarious at times, he shows admirable dedication to achieving what he wants despite many setbacks, he gets verbally smacked by Andrew's self-insert, and he gets a well-deserved beatdown by none other than John. His path is basically like the anti-version of the normal heroes. We follow him, and see him grow stronger and stronger, and eventually he receives his "happy ending" and completes his session while the other heroes do the same thing (except obviously he does it in an evil way instead of a good way). It also turns out Jade (my favorite character) goes bad and then kills herself, Errr, I'm not sure exactly what you heard, but Jade doesn't "kill herself". She goes bad and dies (in one timeline at least), but she doesn't actually kill herself. Also, in the reset timeline people mentioned before, we see a lot more of her while she's not evil. and the ending overall is confusing and unsatisfying. The very end is not really that confusing, in my opinion. Once the timeline has been reset, all the living heroes get together and have some much-needed face-to-face conversations, they discuss the strategy for the upcoming battles, they all split up in separate groups to fight their respective villains, they all win after a long and intense battle (with the music featuring some epic references to early Homestuck songs), and then they enter their new universe and enjoy their happy ending. Meanwhile for the characters out in the Furthest Ring, yes their fate is left ambiguous as to whether or not they survive after their confrontation with Lord English and the Green Sun explodes. But Andrew has said he'll work on an Epilogue and we've received snaps that are hinting to the aforementioned Caliborn confrontation happening at some point for them in the future, and Terezi's out to find out what happened in the Furthest Ring. So, it's pretty likely that somewhere in the future we'll get some more actual conclusions to the things that are still unresolved.
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 20, 2017 14:50:27 GMT
A whole lot of encouraging stuff about how I misinterpreted what happens in three thousand pages of comic via a five-minute Google search. Alright, I think I'll give it another shot. It's just that characters like Caliborn tend to make me cranky, and I don't want that. I'll finish the comic after I've had some time to cool off about him. Also, the fact that it's not finished is also rather encouraging. Thanks for clearing that stuff out with me.
|
|
|
Post by mementovivere on Mar 20, 2017 18:03:22 GMT
For what it's worth, I personally really enjoyed most of Act 6, which is full of a lot of really funny, entertaining, exciting, action-packed, and emotional moments from start to finish. I think part of the reason it left a bad taste in people's mouths is that a lot of people got burnt out from reading it serially over the course of several years and several long update pauses... also the tone is kinda different, and post-scratch there's a lot less reliance on convoluted time shenanigans and a lot more emphasis on personal issues. Caliborn's absolutely a terrible person, and he's a lot more loathsome in the beginning, but he becomes a very entertaining character despite his terribleness which is what makes him an effective villain. Jade and Jane getting mind-controlled was one of the biggest "OH SHIT" cool plot twists when that update first came out, and is mostly complained about in retrospect. And most of the main characters (or at least, the 8 humans and the more important trolls) do in fact get happy endings and some degree of closure to their personal issues by the end of the story, even if they face many challenges along the way.
Yeah, there are some plot holes and elements of the ending that are less than satisfying, but I really think people tend to dramatically over-exaggerate how bad it is. And anyway, there may actually be more story to come, since we've been promised an Epilogue and since there are a few "foreshadowed" moments that have yet to come to pass.
It's certainly your prerogative whether or not to continue, it's a looooong story that requires a lot of time to devote to it so I don't fault anyone for not wanting to put forth the effort, but I'd at least keep an open mind about the parts you haven't read yet. When people who are REALLY invested in a story end up being disappointed by it, they can get REALLY upset about it in a way that's maybe a bit disproportionate... but don't forget that many of the people who complain the most about Homestuck continue to be actively involved in its fandom a full year later rather than moving on to things they like more. If nothing else, it's a powerful story that continues to have a strong effect on people, for better or for worse.
|
|
|
Post by melonlord on Mar 20, 2017 20:40:15 GMT
I'm gonna somewhat second what these guys are saying, actually. As much as I found the ending dissapointing, my opinion on act 6 and homestuck as a whole is still...middling to positive. I wouldn't be complaining about plotholes and character arcs if I didn't think the plot and characters were pretty amazing. Those bullet-point plot threads I fired off leave out a lot of nuance and character between them.
It has more than its fair share of issues, yeah, but it also has a lot of interesting, exciting and heartfelt moments. I dislike that the ending went the way it did, but I don't regret reading it.
Definitely try it, at least. Act 6 is over half the comic, you can't possibly hate all of it. And maybe the epilogue actually will do the ending some good, who knows. Or if not, there are a bunch of decent fan-endings, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by TrickleJest on Mar 21, 2017 9:08:28 GMT
Uhm... I actually like Caliborn. Honestly, the porn thing was pretty bad but it was actually pretty funny. And the whole Calliope death thing? Dude, he had to kill her. It's a Cherub thing. It's not like he could've left her there. All Cherubs do that, even if they cooperate, one of them eventually gives way to the other one. But yeah, I can agree that the Alpha cast are boring as fuck. But please keep reading. There are one or two flashes that are absolutely worth it (won't spoil them). Although I may just like it because I'm sort of a sadist (y'all know what flash I'm talking about), but I think you may enjoy them
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Mar 21, 2017 18:04:58 GMT
Regarding Caliborn...
In a lot of ways he reminds me of Vriska. I mean, the two sure don't have similar arcs or anything, but they do similarly terrible things. To me, Vriska was actually tougher to deal with in Act 5 because I kept wanting her to be better, to not do that terrible shit and be a better human being. When I was first introduced to undyingUmbrage, I was sure he was in for a fairly predictable "brat learns to cooperate" arc. Right around when you stopped was when I realized he was not in for that at all. On the one hand that made him more interesting for defying his chance at redemption, and easier to swallow his villainous actions. Arguably unlike certain other characters, he's at his best when he's doing evil. And besides, in a story like this we know one little death is never the end of it.
|
|
|
Post by TrickleJest on Mar 21, 2017 21:06:27 GMT
Regarding Caliborn... In a lot of ways he reminds me of Vriska. I mean, the two sure don't have similar arcs or anything, but they do similarly terrible things. To me, Vriska was actually tougher to deal with in Act 5 because I kept wanting her to be better, to not do that terrible shit and be a better human being. When I was first introduced to undyingUmbrage, I was sure he was in for a fairly predictable "brat learns to cooperate" arc. Right around when you stopped was when I realized he was not in for that at all. On the one hand that made him more interesting for defying his chance at redemption, and easier to swallow his villainous actions. Arguably unlike certain other characters, he's at his best when he's doing evil. And besides, in a story like this we know one little death is never the end of it. Yeah, he's similar to Vriska. Except for the fact that I hated Vriska in Act 5 and loved Caliborn in Act 6 but that was just how I felt about it. They also kill one likable innocent character each, which is most likely why they're hated. (Well, partially hated).
|
|
|
Post by Sharkalien on Mar 21, 2017 21:11:20 GMT
To me, Vriska was actually tougher to deal with in Act 5 because I kept wanting her to be better, to not do that terrible shit and be a better human being.Heh, well she's not exactly human
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Mar 21, 2017 23:22:19 GMT
oops >.>;;; I meant like a kinder person in general I see 'better human' is a loaded phrase in this context.....
|
|
|
Post by scalemate on Mar 22, 2017 18:35:28 GMT
New to this forum, hi everyone!
OP, get ready to see a loooot of Caliborn. A lot of the back half of Act 6, especially, is Caliborn-heavy. Nothing really happens with the kids (the characters we're actually supposed to root on and care about) in the start of Act 6, and the Beta kids are put on the back burner in favor of the new Alpha kids, whom are suddenly a whole second cast of main characters, apparently. Unless you care a whole ton about Caliborn and/or the Alpha kids, a large part of the beginning as well as the end of Act 6 is going to be somewhat insufferable.
|
|
|
Post by TrickleJest on Mar 22, 2017 19:55:35 GMT
New to this forum, hi everyone! OP, get ready to see a loooot of Caliborn. A lot of the back half of Act 6, especially, is Caliborn-heavy. Nothing really happens with the kids (the characters we're actually supposed to root on and care about) in the start of Act 6, and the Beta kids are put on the back burner in favor of the new Alpha kids, whom are suddenly a whole second cast of main characters, apparently. Unless you care a whole ton about Caliborn and/or the Alpha kids, a large part of the beginning as well as the end of Act 6 is going to be somewhat insufferable. Sup, welcome to our forum! Hope you enjoy your stay here!
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 24, 2017 18:56:34 GMT
Thanks for the encouraging words, everybody! I've decided to continue Homestuck after hearing that things aren't completely hopeless and some really neat things happen between the characters. However, I will be skipping or, at best, skimming, most parts with Caliborn. He gives me some RL issues that a fictitious Shitwad* should not have power over, though I eagerly await his ass-handing.
Also, Scalemate, welcome to the forums! I'm excited to see more of you.
*Edit: I like that name. That's his name, now, since he hijacked the narrative like the little SW that he is. How long does that last, btw?
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Mar 24, 2017 23:48:21 GMT
Feel free to keep us posted on your progress. We love liveblogs and will be curious to see how your perspective changes or doesn't change as you continue. Glad you hopefully feel a little better about Homestuck than you did when you came here
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 24, 2017 23:51:53 GMT
Ooh. A live blog sounds like fun. I think I'll do that, then. Thanks for talking this over with me.
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 25, 2017 1:42:07 GMT
Yeah, I'm doing this liveblog thing, and this is my first post. I will be reading slowly, because SW is an SW. See 3 posts up.
In other news, the Alpha kids are growing on me, now. It's neat to see them working together, now. Roxy's my favorite.
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Mar 26, 2017 21:20:32 GMT
-grabs the popcorn- :B
Roxy is everyone's favorite. It's not without good reason, but I think all the B2s are really great.
I look forward to this.
|
|
|
Post by mistertorchwick on Mar 27, 2017 20:05:28 GMT
Alright. I did a good bit of reading, now. And I am loving the character stuff to death, seriously. Beware my literary snobbery will show here:
The Rose and Kanaya relationship is pretty cute, and it's interesting to see the Lalonde alcohol problem turning up again. Especially considering Rose's relationship with her mother, I want to see how she develops through this. I was a little blindsighted by her suddenly hooking up with Kanaya of all people, though. Considering she was kind of a flirt with Dave, I wasn't expecting her to suddenly go with an alien girl, as appropriate as it seems in hindsight. The thing is, I've always seen Kanaya as the most generic of all the trolls. Half the time I forgot about her completely, and then she'd show up in the background of a panel somewhere and I was all "Oh yeah, she exists."
I get that might piss some people off, but I'm not a huge fan of any of the trolls except Karkat (because he's slightly less horrible than everyone else), Terezi (because she's flippin' hilarious) and Sollux (because he looks really cool, despite being pretty insignificant). Act 5 Act 1 was perhaps the hardest part of the entire comic for me to read. I also skipped the rather long flash games with Pre-Scratch Fish Lady wandering around amassing her army to fight Lord English. I hope nothing too important happens here, but based on what I've gathered it pretty much just introduces ANOTHER ten (or twenty-two, I'm not sure) trolls who proceed to do jack-all for the rest of the story. I did "play" the bit where she goes up against Vriska, and that was pretty funny. Though I have a hard time believing Hussie bobbing around in the background for that was some insignificant joke. I'm ready to see where that goes.
Speaking of Vriska, Tavros is planning on proposing to her, which is cool. But he really could do better. Honestly, she was horrible to him in life and continues to be as such in death. And on top of it John stole his ring why? Because that was also a pretty nasty thing to do to someone he just met, which really doesn't seem to be the Egbert way to me. Was it just to heap misfortune onto Tavros, or was it part of John's previous freak out?
We also saw poor Jane flip out when Jake forgot her birthday. That was really sad, especially considering how difficult things have been for them. I would say she could have been more mature, but I had a similar breakdown on my own 16th, so whatevs. I'm a little worried about what lies ahead for Jane, but ready regardless. SW has been talking to her, so that probably means she's going to be manipulated into doing something stupid.
John had a similar tantrum to toward Davesprite dumping Jade. The relationship itself sounds weird to me, but I guess it makes sense. It's also probs as close to my OTP as I'm going to get. I want to know more about what was going on, because something tells me Jade was at least partially responsible for the failure of the relationship. But John was too busy screaming at the sky for her to explain.
Another thing: HOLY CRAP Erixsprite, or Solidansprite or whatever. Sollux + Eridan Kernalsprite. He's a awesome fusion of two minor characters given a nice little bit of spotlight in one of the a rare example of well-done macabre humor. He's so hilariously depressing, and Jake's grating cheerfulness at his misery had me holding back chuckles. I particularly enjoyed Jake's "There it is, your favorite finger." I want more of this guy. He's like Marvin from Hitchhiker's Guide. I would feel bad for him if he weren't so darn funny.
In other news, SW got OWNED by Hussie. It was quite satisfying to watch him self-destruct like that, even I know he'll survive it. I still have John's smackdown to look forward to, but is it true that he's actually killed off-screen? Or is that going to be shown in the upcoming epilogue or what? Eh, I guess I'll figure it out when I get there. But considering he's 1) The main villain of the work, 2) has been built up to more than SAURON by sheer word-count and 3) So utterly vile I would expect him to have meet a satisfying doom where we can see him.
|
|