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Post by jacquerel on Apr 19, 2016 11:29:50 GMT
The source of his power was destroyed, a black hole was eating the place he was in, and he was facing an entire army + the mysterious power of the same artifact he used himself, any single one of which things makes him no threat to the other characters. So... yes?
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 19, 2016 11:48:34 GMT
The source of his power was destroyed *One of his many sources. He was still far from powerless at that point They're in the furthest ring where Time and Space breaks down, we've no idea if a Black Hole would even work in any meaningful sense out there. We did see him just standing there without issue. We saw the army in effect earlier: They accomplished jack shit I don't think you can say both that it's mysterious in function while also declaring that it worked at the same time. Besides, assuming Vriska's guess was correct(and why wouldn't it be, she apparently gained omniscience in the end), then all it does is release the B1 Kids, and what are they gonna do? They could barely handle a clusterfuck of goons, let alone the big bad himself. None of these things by themselves appear to properly destroy/nullify him. Even all together I'm doubtful that it'd stop him. Plus you're still forgetting one of Lord English's main tricks: Lil Cal with it's soul cargo still exists in the Void. Just as we saw two iterations of Lord English emerge in the story, there's nothing to say that more iterations won't also come about. Don't forget about all the Kurlozs out there, who serve Lord ENglish, and have the same Chucklevoodoos that Gamzee used to manifest the first Lil Cal. We were even told by DOc Scratch that other iterations can and have turned up in other universes.
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Post by jacquerel on Apr 19, 2016 12:26:22 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers.
It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2016 13:18:44 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers. It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had. his cueball powers some from godtier clock that caliborn consumed though
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Post by The Paradoxical Insurgent on Apr 19, 2016 13:42:35 GMT
Shouldn't there be a Caliborn ghost somewhere from Alt!Calliope's timeline? I think that could have been an interesting view to take during the end, from a defeayed Caliborn.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Apr 19, 2016 14:51:46 GMT
I like Act 6, but the pacing was definitely far less tight in it than it was in Acts 1-5. Does anyone actually remember Act 1? The pacing was terrible, and very little, if anything, made sense. It was still good, but it definitely was nowhere near as good as Act 6. This is why, when you try to get someone to read Homestuck, you have to say "just keep going, it gets better". Act 1 is, well, Act 1. Sure it's slow, but it's the starting point to build off of. Furthermore, Act 1 is less then 10% the size of Act 6, and while, as a whole, it's slower than Act 6, it also starts to pick up the pace by the end of the act and this trend continues through later acts. Act 6 on the other hand takes up an entire half of the comic and has slow pacing throughout. This is not to excuse Act 1; taken on it's own, it is a worse act than Act 6, but taking their respective sizes and positions in the story, Act 6 is the bigger blemish on the story.
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Post by Shadow of the Lotus on Apr 19, 2016 17:36:26 GMT
I personally loved Acts 1 and 2; they're my favorite acts. But even while they were originally being posted, there were a lot of complaints that the story was too boring. WV: Ascend always seems to be an acceleration point.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 19, 2016 20:20:49 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers. It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had. The eight balls don't indicate a loss of powers: He also had them when he killed Hussie. And as has been said, the Green Sun is not his main source of power. It's just one of his many sources. Without it, he still has the Clockwork Magyks, Gamzee's Clown-psuedo-immortaility, Equius' Strength, AR's Super Intelligence(and possibly soul destroying powers), and Caliborn's own Lord of Time powers. I'm not 'assuming' that there are other Lord Englishs, we are explicitly told that Doc Scratch like beings exist in countless universes, all aspiring(and succeeding), in making way for Lord English(s), and that the glitch that affected the A1 Session also affects many other sessions out there, showing his influence across many universes.
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cookiefonster
Dead
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 19, 2016 20:26:55 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers. It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had. The eight balls don't indicate a loss of powers: He also had them when he killed Hussie. And as has been said, the Green Sun is not his main source of power. It's just one of his many sources. Without it, he still has the Clockwork Magyks, Gamzee's Clown-psuedo-immortaility, Equius' Strength, AR's Super Intelligence(and possibly soul destroying powers), and Caliborn's own Lord of Time powers. I'm not 'assuming' that there are other Lord Englishs, we are explicitly told that Doc Scratch like beings exist in countless universes, all aspiring(and succeeding), in making way for Lord English(s), and that the glitch that affected the A1 Session also affects many other sessions out there, showing his influence across many universes. Obvious thing I missed.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 19, 2016 20:33:03 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers. It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had. Lord English's powers do not depend on the existence of the Green Sun, the army has no effect on LE and only ever meant to serve as a distaction, the effect of the juju was left ambiguous, and it's a canon fact that even if LE is destroyed now, there will still be many, many iterations of him in the "future".
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 19, 2016 22:17:23 GMT
He's lost the main source of his powers (as you could see, his eyes stopped flashing, which was what gave him the abilities he was using to destroy the army), the army doesn't appear to have taken much of a dent either and now he no longer has the abilities he was using to fight them, and as the black hole could destroy the green sun (the source of his powers) I don't know why you'd go "there's no knowing if it could destroy him". The Green Sun existed in all times/places at once and was also destroyed in the same way, even if there were other Lord Englishes (frankly I think the only reason to assume there would be is if you intentionally want it to be a bad ending) they would similarly have lost their super cueball powers. It's enough for me. You want to hate it that's fine, but it gave me enough tools to clear up any terribly pressing doubts I had. Lord English's powers do not depend on the existence of the Green Sun, the army has no effect on LE and only ever meant to serve as a distaction, the effect of the juju was left ambiguous, and it's a canon fact that even if LE is destroyed now, there will still be many, many iterations of him in the "future". I don't think so. I am pretty sure this is the last Lord English. Why? He is the Iteration of Lord English that came from Universe A, no Lord English Iterations originated from Universe B, and Lord English came from Universe C. He has reached the end of the infinite cycle of universes, and now he has nowhere else to go.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 19, 2016 22:23:08 GMT
Lord English's powers do not depend on the existence of the Green Sun, the army has no effect on LE and only ever meant to serve as a distaction, the effect of the juju was left ambiguous, and it's a canon fact that even if LE is destroyed now, there will still be many, many iterations of him in the "future". I don't think so. I am pretty sure this is the last Lord English. Why? He is the Iteration of Lord English that came from Universe A, no Lord English Iterations originated from Universe B, and Lord English came from Universe C. He has reached the end of the infinite cycle of universes, and now he has nowhere else to go. There are other Universes.
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 19, 2016 22:33:22 GMT
I don't think so. I am pretty sure this is the last Lord English. Why? He is the Iteration of Lord English that came from Universe A, no Lord English Iterations originated from Universe B, and Lord English came from Universe C. He has reached the end of the infinite cycle of universes, and now he has nowhere else to go. There are other Universes. Yes, but think of it this way, he started in C, so, since A is his last pre-C appearance, it has to be his last appearance, because otherwise he would start doubling-up, which would be weird. To get to A from C, he had to appear in all the infinite universes after C and before A. Admittedly, this assumes he moves through the cycle of the game, but that seems to make sense to me.
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Post by Arashi500 on Apr 19, 2016 22:34:17 GMT
The circle of destruction made around the Green Sun with the cracks ensured that everything within the circle would be pulled into the black hole, but everything outside it would be safe. So while there may have been LE Hosts in universes or bubbles outside the reach of the black hole, they may never be able to "bear fruit" without influence from universes with a more concentrated or stable source. Of course, it's also possible that they would still form LE even if he was destroyed/trapped by the black hole. No real concrete way to know, but I'm inclined to believe the former.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 19, 2016 22:39:23 GMT
Lord English's powers do not depend on the existence of the Green Sun, the army has no effect on LE and only ever meant to serve as a distaction, the effect of the juju was left ambiguous, and it's a canon fact that even if LE is destroyed now, there will still be many, many iterations of him in the "future". I don't think so. I am pretty sure this is the last Lord English. Why? He is the Iteration of Lord English that came from Universe A, no Lord English Iterations originated from Universe B, and Lord English came from Universe C. He has reached the end of the infinite cycle of universes, and now he has nowhere else to go. This is just one dead end, though. Most universes have many Sburb players, and so many universes are created; it's an exponential increase. Each dot representing a universe, from which many more universes are created via S***b. The new universe / cherub universe [the green dot] does not produce a new universe, presumably, but that doesn't mean the entire cycle of universe creation ends. The story just hasn't focused on all the "irrelevant" universes. Due to time travel, and the fact that different universes aren't really temporally connected, he will be able to arrive in any of these universes at any time even if we've seen his defeat in the narrative.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 19, 2016 22:50:30 GMT
There are other Universes. Yes, but think of it this way, he started in C, so, since A is his last pre-C appearance, it has to be his last appearance, because otherwise he would start doubling-up, which would be weird. To get to A from C, he had to appear in all the infinite universes after C and before A. Admittedly, this assumes he moves through the cycle of the game, but that seems to make sense to me. You say that as if he's the one and only Lord English when we've straight up witnessed a second iteration coming about through entirely different means. Any where a Lil Cal doll can appear is potentially a new Lord English and there are multiple ways that can happen: -A malevolent/incompetent Void hero could pull another copy from the Void -Certain mind powers wherever abstracted thought and material reality mesh together works as a conjuration, such as Chucklevoodoos in a Dream Bedroom -Ecto-cloning another existing Lil Cal. Noe of these require the presence or influence of the 'Prime' Lord English, countless iterations can spawn entirely independently without ever interacting with one another, each going forth to forge their own path of destruction.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Apr 21, 2016 12:17:01 GMT
Due to time travel, and the fact that different universes aren't really temporally connected, he will be able to arrive in any of these universes at any time even if we've seen his defeat in the narrative. Although it's hardly a sure thing, Calliope seemed to be of the opinion that Universe C would beget other universe-progeny that were beyond Lord English's reach (disconnected from the "coloUrs and mayhem" of the Green Sun). Since every universe can have multiple instances of Sburb--one for every planet inhabited by a sentient race, potentially even sentients descended from carapacians--it's entirely possible that, while Caliborn's session never bears fruit (which we know to be the case), some OTHER planet completes its own successful session. I mean, we already know that trolls go off and colonize at least one other world, where Nektan and Mierfa got obliterated by Cal-daddy's rage beams or whatever. For all we know, that coincidentally happened to be when a group of those trolls decided to play the game, so they escaped the destruction of their home! Similarly, we have every reason to believe humans will survive and proliferate (the paradoxification equipment for the frog breeding has enough extra power for exactly this effect, as Kanaya told us), and with potential access to parts of the old Alternian and Earth networks, they could quickly rebuild society into one of a similar stage of advancement (especially since the human kids won't die of old age, and can thus help guide more than a single generation). So humanity could easily spread to multiple planets as well, with the help of some troll psionics for FTL travel. And every settled world could spawn its own successful session (or, MAYBE, session s--we don't know if it's possible for a single world to have more than one "winnable" game of Sburb).
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 21, 2016 21:30:02 GMT
Similarly, we have every reason to believe humans will survive and proliferate (the paradoxification equipment for the frog breeding has enough extra power for exactly this effect, as Kanaya told us), and with potential access to parts of the old Alternian and Earth networks, they could quickly rebuild society into one of a similar stage of advancement (especially since the human kids won't die of old age, and can thus help guide more than a single generation). So humanity could easily spread to multiple planets as well, with the help of some troll psionics for FTL travel. And every settled world could spawn its own successful session (or, MAYBE, session s--we don't know if it's possible for a single world to have more than one "winnable" game of Sburb). In addition, the infastructure and machines )(IC had in place as part of her reign on B2 are probably still largely there. If so, you'd probably be able to find the facilities where she first tried to reclone the Troll Race, and later the Human artificial breeding program, so there'd be two species worth of DNA on file for them already.
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Post by Neptz on Apr 21, 2016 22:41:57 GMT
I don't think so. I am pretty sure this is the last Lord English. Why? He is the Iteration of Lord English that came from Universe A, no Lord English Iterations originated from Universe B, and Lord English came from Universe C. He has reached the end of the infinite cycle of universes, and now he has nowhere else to go. This is just one dead end, though. Most universes have many Sburb players, and so many universes are created; it's an exponential increase. Each dot representing a universe, from which many more universes are created via S***b. The new universe / cherub universe [the green dot] does not produce a new universe, presumably, but that doesn't mean the entire cycle of universe creation ends. The story just hasn't focused on all the "irrelevant" universes. Due to time travel, and the fact that different universes aren't really temporally connected, he will be able to arrive in any of these universes at any time even if we've seen his defeat in the narrative. Actually... I'm wondering... Is S___b some weird variation on a juju?(technically it isn't one, since it has many versions of itself) There's multiple versions of it, it's a constant in every universe and it has no set origin.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 21, 2016 22:48:51 GMT
This is just one dead end, though. Most universes have many Sburb players, and so many universes are created; it's an exponential increase. Each dot representing a universe, from which many more universes are created via S***b. The new universe / cherub universe [the green dot] does not produce a new universe, presumably, but that doesn't mean the entire cycle of universe creation ends. The story just hasn't focused on all the "irrelevant" universes. Due to time travel, and the fact that different universes aren't really temporally connected, he will be able to arrive in any of these universes at any time even if we've seen his defeat in the narrative. Actually... I'm wondering... Is S___b some weird variation on a juju?(technically it isn't one, since it has many versions of itself) There's multiple versions of it, it's a constant in every universe and it has no set origin. That's...actually a really legit idea. I always had a feeling that it was going to be revealed that Sburb was originally created by the cherub race or some weirdness like that, but....I mena, i never really thought much about it.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 21, 2016 22:53:30 GMT
Actually... I'm wondering... Is S___b some weird variation on a juju?(technically it isn't one, since it has many versions of itself) There's multiple versions of it, it's a constant in every universe and it has no set origin. That's...actually a really legit idea. I always had a feeling that it was going to be revealed that Sburb was originally created by the cherub race or some weirdness like that, but....I mena, i never really thought much about it. I'd wondered how Sburb originated as well. Although, it probably doesn't really have a true origin, and operates on a circular time frame like everything else in Homestuck. But if I had to speculate, I think maybe it would "begin" by entities that inhabited the "first" universe ever created, and they built it in order to preserve some kind of continuation of reality and life, assuming they knew that their universe would disappear one day. Eventually, there would be a point in the cycle that creates their own universe, and they build sburb all over again.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 21, 2016 23:12:58 GMT
This is just one dead end, though. Most universes have many Sburb players, and so many universes are created; it's an exponential increase. Each dot representing a universe, from which many more universes are created via S***b. The new universe / cherub universe [the green dot] does not produce a new universe, presumably, but that doesn't mean the entire cycle of universe creation ends. The story just hasn't focused on all the "irrelevant" universes. Due to time travel, and the fact that different universes aren't really temporally connected, he will be able to arrive in any of these universes at any time even if we've seen his defeat in the narrative. Actually... I'm wondering... Is S___b some weird variation on a juju?(technically it isn't one, since it has many versions of itself) There's multiple versions of it, it's a constant in every universe and it has no set origin. Jujus don't have origins. S___b does have an origin. The Incipisphere has a frog temple with hieroglyphs that can be deciphered to make the code for the game. That's how Grandpa, Sollux, and the Condesce created the game after finding the frog temple. S___b does cause itself to exist, but it doesn't go back in time to become itself; it's more like a paradox clone. S___b exists because S___b exists, literally. Once it exists, it goes on to cause itself to exist in the first place. Presumably all universes have these S___b loops because it's what allows them to reproduce. It's like the time loop itself is a part of genesis frog biology.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 21, 2016 23:33:13 GMT
Jujus don't have origins. S___b does have an origin. The Incipisphere has a frog temple with hieroglyphs that can be deciphered to make the code for the game. But what about the code?
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Post by Neptz on Apr 21, 2016 23:49:53 GMT
Actually... I'm wondering... Is S___b some weird variation on a juju?(technically it isn't one, since it has many versions of itself) There's multiple versions of it, it's a constant in every universe and it has no set origin. Jujus don't have origins. S___b does have an origin. The Incipisphere has a frog temple with hieroglyphs that can be deciphered to make the code for the game. That's how Grandpa, Sollux, and the Condesce created the game after finding the frog temple. S___b does cause itself to exist, but it doesn't go back in time to become itself; it's more like a paradox clone. S___b exists because S___b exists, literally. Once it exists, it goes on to cause itself to exist in the first place. Presumably all universes have these S___b loops because it's what allows them to reproduce. It's like the time loop itself is a part of genesis frog biology. I suppose that makes sense, but it does kind of make you wonder if there was only one, original universe. If that's the case, then S___b's instance in that was the very first instance of sburb ever. If there has never been the first universe, a central point to branch off, then S___b never had a state of not-existing.
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Acamaeda
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Post by Acamaeda on Apr 22, 2016 1:14:55 GMT
The origin of Paradox Space (wouldn't you like to know what that is? ) happens in such a way that it's unlikely that there's any one "first universe". And that's not how time shenanigans tend to work.
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