cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 1:53:32 GMT
I figure that all arguments relating to whether Dave and Karkat are a good pairing, a canon pairing, a hearts or diamonds or something else pairing, should go in their own thread because otherwise they will inevitably outcrowd other threads, even threads that are about any and all ships.
So debate about that ship here!
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wheals
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
Posts: 170
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Post by wheals on Apr 5, 2016 2:42:36 GMT
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 3:27:52 GMT
Man, I tried a billion times to get that working, yet I could not post the vine despite my best efforts. Also, Hussie is a lefie, which is something I didn't realize until just now.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 5, 2016 5:25:46 GMT
I don't necessarily dislike this pairing, just how it was handled. *shrug* Especially compared to how a potential pairing between Karkat and Terezi, Jade or even John was developed and/or hinted at.
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Post by BlackholeOU on Apr 5, 2016 9:28:07 GMT
DaveKat is Good™, Dave being bisexual and in a relationship with a dude is a thing I really appreciate.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 11:11:15 GMT
I'm debating with myself whether I should participate in this thread or leave everyone else to their own devices. After all, I recently said on the subreddit that all these debates like this are pretty unpleasant.
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Post by alexffs on Apr 5, 2016 14:35:59 GMT
I'm debating with myself whether I should participate in this thread or leave everyone else to their own devices. After all, I recently said on the subreddit that all these debates like this are pretty unpleasant. i can't see anyone acting nasty, so, why not? as long as people act sivil, man
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 5, 2016 14:53:26 GMT
I still don't get how people can be so polarized about two fictional characters' relationship status.
Oh, well, some people go around having actual fights because they like different sport teams... human beings sure are weird.
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lyla
Boy-Skylark
And if it's true, I will surround you and give life to a world that's our own.
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Post by lyla on Apr 5, 2016 15:34:16 GMT
DaveKat is Good™, Dave being bisexual and in a relationship with a dude is a thing I really appreciate. It wasn't handled too well, but this is all I'd have to say. Well not all, but I just don't care enough to make long posts about it in here. Plus, it would get kind of personal too, so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 15:40:24 GMT
I like the ship, not necessarily the handling of it.
The whole retcon seems rushed to me. Vriska should have made more things more different than she did.
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Post by ainara on Apr 5, 2016 15:43:07 GMT
Hussie has never really paid attention to developing romantic relationships. I'd say only Rose/Kanaya have a realistically handled and developed relationship. And that's fine with me! I agree with a lot of people (like evilJazzmaster) that I like the ship but the handling could be better. So yeah. Like the ship, love Dave being bi, very good feelings overall.
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lyla
Boy-Skylark
And if it's true, I will surround you and give life to a world that's our own.
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Post by lyla on Apr 5, 2016 15:46:55 GMT
I like the ship, not necessarily the handling of it. The whole retcon seems rushed to me. Vriska should have made more things more different than she did. I think that if she did, retcon haters would just be more pissed about the retcon than they already are, and retcon lovers would love it less. I love the retcon and I love Davekat, but I'm not sure how much I would have appreciated it if things were too different. This degree of different is alright, with only the characters slightly more happy and some things getting solved faster than they would have been in the GO timeline if no one had died horribly, the only things I'm still eagerly waiting to see addressed are the plot holes that came as a natural result of Vriska's involvement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 15:46:59 GMT
It certainly wasn't handled as badly as Vriska x Tavros.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 15:48:13 GMT
I like the ship, not necessarily the handling of it. The whole retcon seems rushed to me. Vriska should have made more things more different than she did. I think that if she did, retcon haters would just be more pissed about the retcon that they already are, and retcon lovers would love it less. I love the retcon and I love Davekat, but I'm not sure how much I would have appreciated it if things were too different. This degree of different is alright, with only the characters slightly more happy and some things getting solved faster than they would have been in the GO timeline if no one had died horribly, the only things I'm still eagerly waiting to see addressed are the plot holes that came as a natural result of Vriska's involvement. That is true. I sort of feel like the pre-retcon stuff is still more relevant than the post, maybe I'm not letting go enough.
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Post by mementovivere on Apr 5, 2016 15:57:53 GMT
Hussie has never really paid attention to developing romantic relationships. I'd say only Rose/Kanaya have a realistically handled and developed relationship. And that's fine with me! I agree with a lot of people (like evilJazzmaster) that I like the ship but the handling could be better. So yeah. Like the ship, love Dave being bi, very good feelings overall. Yeah, I think people overstate how much time Hussie spends developing the romantic relationships of a lot of the other characters, so I personally don't feel like DaveKat is all THAT underdeveloped compared to many of the other ships in the comic. That's especially true if you're willing to take lateral character development into consideration instead of strictly linear... the pre-retcon timeline had different versions of Dave and Karkat, sure, but it still basically showed how those two individuals might have the potential to bond (going from HATING each other during the meteor trip to gradually becoming best bros by the end of it) which lets us fill in the gaps of the post-retcon meteor trip that we were shown less of. I got into this in a bit more detail in the general comic discussion, but I personally think that DaveKat is a relationship that will NEVER fit firmly into any one quadrant, which will be an extension of Karkat's Blood/bonds stuff, as well as his character development as the character who started out obsessed with how quadrants work (in a similar way to how it's an extension of Dave's character development about getting over his hangups about masculinity/heroism/Bro). The "transcending the quadrants" thing isn't because they are MAGICAL STAR-CROSSED LOVERS or anything, but because they're two aliens who overanalyze everything at length, and who gradually come to view their social constructions about sexuality/relationships to be somewhat artificial, and end up happier for it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 15:59:47 GMT
I like your view of it a lot.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 5, 2016 16:07:19 GMT
Just a side note: while trolls attribute a great deal of importance to the distinction between and , and also for humans this is a lot meaningful, at the end the main difference comes from whether reproduction (i.e. sex) is involved; the actual feelings are very similar, but one relationship is related to reproduction, while the other is not. However, in the case of Dave and Karkat, reproduction is of course impossible, and probably sex too (at least in the way it's usually done between humans or between trolls (whatever the latter is)). So I think the whole vs. debate is basically meaningless when two different species are involved. Not that this would prevent shippers from discussing it ad nauseam, of course.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 16:12:53 GMT
That is a good point. However, I think, most people would say unequivocably that rosemary is a flushed relationship, despite the lack of implied or explict sexual undertones. Granted, there was that one time when Kanaya saw Rose get dunked on by a bucket over her door and for trolls, that is a definately sexual thing, so...
Regardless, I do think that Davekat being revealed as a relationship that is quadrantless would be a pretty fitting development and also a cool callback to the whole "transcending the quadrant system" thing.
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Post by ainara on Apr 5, 2016 16:14:08 GMT
Hussie has never really paid attention to developing romantic relationships. I'd say only Rose/Kanaya have a realistically handled and developed relationship. And that's fine with me! I agree with a lot of people (like evilJazzmaster) that I like the ship but the handling could be better. So yeah. Like the ship, love Dave being bi, very good feelings overall. Yeah, I think people overstate how much time Hussie spends developing the romantic relationships of a lot of the other characters, so I personally don't feel like DaveKat is all THAT underdeveloped compared to many of the other ships in the comic. That's especially true if you're willing to take lateral character development into consideration instead of strictly linear... the pre-retcon timeline had different versions of Dave and Karkat, sure, but it still basically showed how those two individuals might have the potential to bond (going from HATING each other during the meteor trip to gradually becoming best bros by the end of it) which lets us fill in the gaps of the post-retcon meteor trip that we were shown less of. Yep! Maybe it's because I'm one of those fans who does nothing but think about character analysis, but I really have no trouble connecting pre-retcon characterizations with their current ones at all. There ARE some things about the retcon trip that bother me (Rose being bullied out of her alcoholism by Vriska, presumably), but not because we weren't shown. Really agree with you there, constantTroublemaker. I think trying to say "Davekat could be pale" is meaningless. Maybe I'm biased because I never cared about applying quadrants to humans? Dunno. Though Jasprose did say Karkat had someone in the flushed quadrant, so eh. I just think they're regular ol' boyfriends, looking at it from a troll perspective doesn't really make sense to me. EDIT: Yes, what anklebiter said about trascending the quadrants. I think of Rose and Kanaya as "regular ol' girlfriends" too.
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lyla
Boy-Skylark
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Post by lyla on Apr 5, 2016 16:26:59 GMT
I think that if she did, retcon haters would just be more pissed about the retcon that they already are, and retcon lovers would love it less. I love the retcon and I love Davekat, but I'm not sure how much I would have appreciated it if things were too different. This degree of different is alright, with only the characters slightly more happy and some things getting solved faster than they would have been in the GO timeline if no one had died horribly, the only things I'm still eagerly waiting to see addressed are the plot holes that came as a natural result of Vriska's involvement. That is true. I sort of feel like the pre-retcon stuff is still more relevant than the post, maybe I'm not letting go enough. No, you're supposed to feel like it's relevant and feel some sort of grief for the pre-retcon crew. Every version of every character is important, it's a Homestuck core theme that gets abudantly repeated all the time! You feel like it's more relevant because you've spent more time reading about that crew, and the fact that you feel like this just means that it's working on you. It also worked on me. It's like Davesprite being as important as "regular" Dave all over again, even though from a certain point on they have different experiences. It feels more like a natural progression to me, if you will. Because, assuming an arc should end well, Rose should have had to quit with alcohol regardless at some point. Dave should have had to come to terms with his sexuality. And Karkat and Terezi had to have their self-worth/confidence problems be addressed. But everyone died in that timeline, because that's how things were going to go, also given how messed up everyone still was during an important fight. I'm not saying Dave and Karkat's romantic relationship is necessarily a "natural" progression though, just some kind of progression that could or could not have occurred. I think their character arcs work well together. How well it was handled, I can't say. I'm inclined to think a possible romantic development could have been more obvious previously to Game Over, because Dave name-dropping Karkat constantly and Karkat freaking out over his friendship with Dave getting slowly wiped out is not really enough to point to something significantly bigger than a good friendship. Even though I feel like people forget that this time they had three whole years to actually get closer instead of one and a half, and yet they think JohnRoxy is alright and makes more sense even if it happened literally in a day, lol. Anyway, I'm waiting for Homestuck to end and read it again in one go to have a full picture.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 16:50:45 GMT
The thing about the Dave sexuality arc is that it never was a thing from the start. Sure, he has been teased about homoerotic stuff but that stuff could've just as well been regarded as a joke. As far as I know, few people thought "god when is Dave going to come out of the closet and come to terms with sexuality?" before Vriskagram, in contrast to many other character arcs. And now the sexuality thing is a super big deal and was retroactively made so it always was one, which I don't think makes all that much sense. Besides this guy already had a hell of a lot more arc complication stuff than other characters.
I'm not going to post in this thread much but here's some two cents regarding the debated ship.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 17:00:51 GMT
The thing about the Dave sexuality arc is that it never was a thing from the start. Sure, he has been teased about homoerotic stuff but that stuff could've just as well been regarded as a joke. As far as I know, few people thought "god when is Dave going to come out of the closet and come to terms with sexuality?" before Vriskagram, in contrast to many other character arcs. And now the sexuality thing is a super big deal and was retroactively made so it always was one, which I don't think makes all that much sense. Besides this guy already had a hell of a lot more arc complication stuff than other characters. I'm not going to post in this thread much but here's some two cents regarding the debated ship. To be fair, there are probably a lot of things in Homestuck that Hussie thought about later on, and then decided to make it so retroactively. When you are making something over a long period of time, the way you initially planned for things to pan out probably won't be the way they actually pan out. Hussie had even said before that he hadn't even conceived of the idea of the Alpha kids untill at least well into Act 2, so you could argue that the guardians were only made major characters retroactively speaking. Granted, your arguement is a sentiment lots of people share, but it's not something that hasn't worked before in other aspects of the comic.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 17:02:25 GMT
The thing about the Dave sexuality arc is that it never was a thing from the start. Sure, he has been teased about homoerotic stuff but that stuff could've just as well been regarded as a joke. As far as I know, few people thought "god when is Dave going to come out of the closet and come to terms with sexuality?" before Vriskagram, in contrast to many other character arcs. And now the sexuality thing is a super big deal and was retroactively made so it always was one, which I don't think makes all that much sense. Besides this guy already had a hell of a lot more arc complication stuff than other characters. I'm not going to post in this thread much but here's some two cents regarding the debated ship. To be fair, there are probably a lot of things in Homestuck that Hussie thought about later on, and then decided to make it so retroactively. When you are making something over a long period of time, the way you initially planned for things to pan out probably won't be the way they actually pan out. Hussie had even said before that he hadn't even conceived of the idea of the Alpha kids untill at least well into Act 2, so you could argue that the guardians were only made major characters retroactively speaking. Granted, your arguement is a sentiment lots of people share, but it's not something that hasn't worked before in other aspects of the comic. I see your point, but character arc stuff is kinda different, especially when it's now a super big deal.
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lyla
Boy-Skylark
And if it's true, I will surround you and give life to a world that's our own.
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Post by lyla on Apr 5, 2016 17:15:18 GMT
Hussie has never really paid attention to developing romantic relationships. I'd say only Rose/Kanaya have a realistically handled and developed relationship. And that's fine with me! I agree with a lot of people (like evilJazzmaster) that I like the ship but the handling could be better. So yeah. Like the ship, love Dave being bi, very good feelings overall. Yeah, I think people overstate how much time Hussie spends developing the romantic relationships of a lot of the other characters, so I personally don't feel like DaveKat is all THAT underdeveloped compared to many of the other ships in the comic. That's especially true if you're willing to take lateral character development into consideration instead of strictly linear... the pre-retcon timeline had different versions of Dave and Karkat, sure, but it still basically showed how those two individuals might have the potential to bond (going from HATING each other during the meteor trip to gradually becoming best bros by the end of it) which lets us fill in the gaps of the post-retcon meteor trip that we were shown less of. I got into this in a bit more detail in the general comic discussion, but I personally think that DaveKat is a relationship that will NEVER fit firmly into any one quadrant, which will be an extension of Karkat's Blood/bonds stuff, as well as his character development as the character who started out obsessed with how quadrants work (in a similar way to how it's an extension of Dave's character development about getting over his hangups about masculinity/heroism/Bro). The "transcending the quadrants" thing isn't because they are MAGICAL STAR-CROSSED LOVERS or anything, but because they're two aliens who overanalyze everything at length, and who gradually come to view their social constructions about sexuality/relationships to be somewhat artificial, and end up happier for it.I'm sad I missed this post before, because I'd have quoted it word by word. I've always been especially attached to the part I bolded. It just seems a little too perfect for me to ignore it. And I used to be a hardcore Karezi shipper, before looking into other ships with good potential for them, such as this one. To be fair, there are probably a lot of things in Homestuck that Hussie thought about later on, and then decided to make it so retroactively. When you are making something over a long period of time, the way you initially planned for things to pan out probably won't be the way they actually pan out. Hussie had even said before that he hadn't even conceived of the idea of the Alpha kids untill at least well into Act 2, so you could argue that the guardians were only made major characters retroactively speaking. Granted, your arguement is a sentiment lots of people share, but it's not something that hasn't worked before in other aspects of the comic. I see your point, but character arc stuff is kinda different, especially when it's now a super big deal. Well... I don't see how that's any different. If anything, it's way less of a big deal than the Alpha Kids being important. But since Dave and Karkat are major characters and are very well received by the fandom, they have a buttload of relatively famous ships, and with both of them being off-limits to one other, too many ships were automatically sunk. Therefore, hell had to happen, lol.
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Post by karkat on Apr 5, 2016 17:53:35 GMT
karkat commented on how much he likes dave's lips at least 2 times in act 5
like this came out of left field for me completely (johnkat 4 lyfe), but there's tons of evidence for it regardless of retcons and all that shit
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