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Post by spadesnoir1234 on Apr 5, 2016 18:08:36 GMT
You are probably gonna burn me in the stake for this, but I never reall liked the "romance that trascends quadrants" line. It sounds like something Hussie wrote without putting much thought into it and I don't think it really makes sense.
I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 18:12:36 GMT
You are probably gonna burn me in the stake for this, but I never reall liked the "romance that trascends quadrants" line. It sounds like something Hussie wrote without putting much thought into it and I don't think it really makes sense. I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me. Doc Scratch dismissed the concept of romance beyond quadrants as nonsense.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 18:14:46 GMT
I mean, like memento said previously, I don't think Hussie is going to use that line as a way to say that Davekat is some magical true love romance or whatever just that Karkat won't want to strictly define that romance by the troll quadrants because he may feel that it doesn't really fit any of them, yet all of them at once in some way or another. And it would make for a good development as he won't be so eager to define his relationships in such a quadrant-like way.
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Post by spadesnoir1234 on Apr 5, 2016 18:25:28 GMT
You are probably gonna burn me in the stake for this, but I never reall liked the "romance that trascends quadrants" line. It sounds like something Hussie wrote without putting much thought into it and I don't think it really makes sense. I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me. Doc Scratch dismissed the concept of romance beyond quadrants as nonsense....Huh. I had totally forgoten that, even though it's in the same page, and it's the very next line ::mspaface::
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Post by mementovivere on Apr 5, 2016 18:42:13 GMT
I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me. Pretty much all of the quadrants can already be used to describe different ways that humans interact with one another. In the past I also would have argued that stuff like black romance was a distinctly alien thing because "biology", but Karkat and Dave have both recently argued otherwise so now I think that's probably not really the case. JOHN: i didn't think we could feel the spade stuff, though. JOHN: i dunno, i just thought it was some screwy biological difference? DAVE: nah i disagree DAVE: both humans and trolls are emotionally versatile sentient beings that can feel many hells of different things As far as what a relationship that "transcends the quadrants" would look like in practice... probably like a lot of actual relationships! Real life emotions and relationships are usually much more complex than just "two people love each other and want to do physical things to each other, the end". You can love someone deeply but also find certain things about them aggravating, but also be the person to calm them down when they're upset, or know what pushes their buttons and try to step in and mediate when you can tell that someone else is pushing them towards anger. I'd argue that MOST of my long-term relationships have fit that bill at one time or another, and it seems overly simplistic to suggest that people are ONLY capable of interacting with other people in one of four distinct ways. Don't forget that quadrants aren't actually real things--they're fictional categories created by a human to describe alien relationships that, ultimately, look a lot like many real human relationships.
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Post by spadesnoir1234 on Apr 5, 2016 19:01:18 GMT
Edit: Ok I don't know why the quote's not showing. I quoted " Don't forget that quadrants aren't actually real things--they're fictional categories created by a human to describe alien relationships that, ultimately, look a lot like many real human relationships." This. This is precisely my problem with the "trascending quadrants" thing. If quadrants don't matter, what is the point?Like, take a matespritship between two trolls, ok? Picture two trolls being in a matespritship. They love each other romantically, but they can't possibly be always happy, right? Sometimes they'll have to argue and get angry at each other, just to make up a week later and talk about their feelings. That has to be the case, right? A matespritship can't be pure love, it has other stuff. So how would a relationship that trascends quadrants be differemt from that? I don't think that people can only interact with each other in four different ways. But the fact that Hussie wrote about a relationship that trascends quadrants seem to imply that that's the case. And the fact that a character sees this as nonsense may imply that Hussie realized how paradoxical all of this sounds. (Yes, I know it's only one line of text admist hundreds of thousands and that it didn't have any impact on the plot. It's just that it has been bothering me for a while and I wanted to explain why).
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Post by mementovivere on Apr 5, 2016 19:13:29 GMT
I don't think that people can only interact with each other in four different ways. But the fact that Hussie wrote about a relationship that trascends quadrants seem to imply that that's the case. And the fact that a character sees this as nonsense may imply that Hussie realized how paradoxical all of this sounds. Well, I think that is probably the case. OR, it will increasingly be implied that the quadrants are social constructs that, while occasionally useful, can also be somewhat limiting, just like a lot of human social constructs can be relating to sexuality and gender and whatnot. Sometimes humans find it useful to categorize their gender or sexuality in a strictly-defined way, but not everyone does. I mean, Karkat DOES get a lot of his knowledge of quadrants from romance movies and novels... even in human culture, those things are generally regarded as offering extremely unrealistic or idealistic portrayals of romance. One of the main reasons that the quadrants even matter in troll culture is because occasionally drones come by with heart and spade buckets, which you're expected to fill if you don't want to be killed. Presumably Beforus is more or less the same, but without the killing part. If trolls didn't have drones enforcing these strict distinctions between different kinds of romance, WOULD troll society care as much about strictly defined quadrants? It's hard to say. Personally I think it's sorta cool that Hussie has created a fictional culture, complete with alien social constructs, and is now deconstructing those constructs in in a somewhat realistic way after exposing it to alien social norms for three years.
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Post by mementovivere on Apr 5, 2016 19:46:19 GMT
...Actually, I think I'm onto something here. The question of "would the quadrants be as strictly enforced if not for the drones" makes me think that the "transcending the quadrants" thing in trolls is actually a much better parallel to non-heterosexuality in humans than anything relating to gender. Troll society historically places a lot of emphasis on the importance of relationships that fall into one of four quadrants, specifically for reproductive reasons... just like human society historically places a lot of emphasis on the importance of relationships with the opposite gender, specifically for reproductive reasons. We even got some early foreshadowing that not fitting neatly into quadrants is EXACTLY what has lead to Karkat's relationship failures in the past: FCG: YOU'VE BEEN SENDING HER AN ENDLESS STREAM OF MIXED SIGNALS FOR AS LONG AS YOU'VE KNOWN HER. CCG: OH BULLSHIT. FCG: LIKE FUCK IT'S BULLSHIT. FCG: IT'S ALL TOO CLEAR TO ME NOW. IT'S A CLASSIC CASE OF QUADRANT VACILLATION, AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT. FCG: NO WONDER SHE WAS FRUSTRATED AND GOT FED UP WITH YOU. .... FCG: YOU WANT HER IN EVERY QUADRANT LIKE A DESPERATE FOOL. FCG: DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU'VE BECOME? YOU ARE THE SAD JOKE CHARACTER IN THE ROMCOM, YOU KNOW THE GUY I'M TALKING ABOUT. FCG: WHO'S GREEDY AND INDISCRIMINATE ABOUT FILLING EVERY QUADRANT, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO IT, AND IN THE END HAS FUCKALL TO SHOW FOR IT. Troll society actively DEMONIZES people who want a relationship that fills every quadrant, even though by human standards we would consider a multifaceted relationship to be normal. Likewise, human society (traditionally) demonizes people who want a relationship that is non-heterosexual, even though trolls would consider being attracted to different genders normal. If the "transcending the quadrants" thing is accurate, Karkat is ACTUALLY the troll equivalent of an alternate sexuality, and maybe that's why none of his relationships in the past worked out--not because of incompatible genders, but because of incompatible needs relating to quadrants. In that sense, Karkat putting EXTRA emphasis on the importance of quadrants is pretty similar to Dave putting EXTRA emphasis on gay jokes and an ironic cool guy facade. Dave and Karkat are literally perfect for each other when you look at it that way, and their relationship arcs parallel each other. Karkat needed an alien to help him get over his complex about fitting neatly into society's ideals about quadrants... Dave needed an alien to help him get over his complex about fitting society's ideals about masculinity and gender. Both of them are happier for it. Goddammit. I can't believe this stupid comic is making me actually invested in shipping I didn't even like DaveKat that much as a pairing before, but either I'm reading way too much into it or there was a lot more depth there than we were giving it credit for.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 19:57:30 GMT
I never thought I'd say this, but you're raising some really decent arguments in favor of Davekat. I'm not going against your arguments, but I will stay this: I still think they make more sense as being best friends than being in a relationship.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 5, 2016 19:57:35 GMT
Goddammit. I can't believe this stupid comic is making me actually invested in shipping I didn't even like DaveKat that much as a pairing before, but either I'm reading way too much into it or there was a lot more depth there than we were giving it credit for. Well, suffice to say that I'm finding your posts about this issue to be totally worth some thinking. And I'm a totally non-shipper, I just don't care about shipping in any work and I've always thought of shipping as a very silly activity. Kudos to you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 19:57:55 GMT
You know, one of my favorite things about stories is guessing which subtextes are intended and which are coincidence. And here... I just don't know.
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 5, 2016 20:51:12 GMT
I didn't even like DaveKat that much as a pairing before, but either I'm reading way too much into it or there was a lot more depth there than we were giving it credit for. I think there's often a lot more depth to the comic than we give it credit for, even though as a fandom we get crazy detailed with our analyzing and theorizing. That's one of the things I love about Homestuck most. People always joke about English teachers injecting meaning and symbolism into literature where there wasn't intended to be any, but in Homestuck that symbolism is almost always actually there and intentional, even if it was injected retroactively. I agree with cookiefonster that most of Dave's dialogue prior to the retcon came off to me as just your standard stereotypical teenage boy "gay jokes" with the exception of a couple of lines that were just strange ( TG: i love him ), and I was for sure surprised to see him and Karkat together post-retcon. Somehow it just never occurred to me--despite the fact that I've been an avid AU Davekat fanfic reader for years--that it could ever happen in-comic. But I don't think there's anything less valid about this new interpretation of Dave's personality we've been given. People argue the same issue with Bro's treatment of Dave being retroactively interpreted as abusive within the context of the comic--and I'd be interested to hear your opinions on that subject, cookiefonster. But remember, we've also experienced characters being redefined when we learned the truth about Dad being a Legitimate Businessman and Mom honestly being 100% into wizards. Yes, it's hard to cope with change. The thing is, we've been reading this comic over the course of seven years, and we had five+ of those years to cement our internal concepts of who these characters were before the retcon came. But the characters aren't static, just like we're not static, and Andrew isn't static either. He's grown and learned with us (count the number of instances of "retard" before and after EOA5--33 vs 2) and it's his prerogative if his own interpretation of who the characters are changes over time as well. That's not all--the first five Acts minus Hivebent took place over the course of one day when they were thirteen years old. As John put it, ( JOHN: but the point is, when all was said and done, that was just some stuff that happened over one day, which was a whole year ago already.) Even though it feels like we've seen far less of them in the three comic years since--and a laughably small amount since the retcon--I don't think it's accurate to say that any developments that happened offscreen during that time are "out of left field". Three years is quite a long time to grow when you're a teenager. For those of you who got into the comic after the retcon, was Davekat any less surprising to you than it was to us serial readers?
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 21:05:08 GMT
Memento, your post has really been making me thinking about some other things, and now I wanna bring up the conversation Karkat and Dave have with John, because some previous aspects of this conversation really bugged me when I first read it. Dave's cageiness and him trying to come out to John but not finding the right words is understandable. But why is Karkat so cagey and nervous in this discussion. Throughout the conversation, he is embarrassed and wants it to stop, but there really isn't any reason, if we assume this is your run-of-the-mill flushed romance. When i first read this sequence, I figured Karkat was just suffering from second-hand embarrassment, but even then it was suspicious. And this second-hand embarrassment doesn't make sense with the rest of the trolls either. Everyone else knows they are in some kind of romantic relationship but they don't know what quadrant. So, there's also no reason for Karkat to have the same second-hand embarrassment when Dave has already "come out" as it were. So then, why is Karkat reacting the way he is? If we look at this conversation assuming Dave and Karkat are in a quadrantless relationship, his reluctance to talk about him and Dave's relationship even to John is understandable. And if he were to outright tell others that he and Dave were in a relationship than his troll friends would want to know what quadrant, and telling them that there is no quadrant would be super scandalous.
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Post by Blaperile on Apr 5, 2016 21:07:38 GMT
...Actually, I think I'm onto something here. The question of "would the quadrants be as strictly enforced if not for the drones" makes me think that the "transcending the quadrants" thing in trolls is actually a much better parallel to non-heterosexuality in humans than anything relating to gender. Troll society historically places a lot of emphasis on the importance of relationships that fall into one of four quadrants, specifically for reproductive reasons... just like human society historically places a lot of emphasis on the importance of relationships with the opposite gender, specifically for reproductive reasons. We even got some early foreshadowing that not fitting neatly into quadrants is EXACTLY what has lead to Karkat's relationship failures in the past: FCG: YOU'VE BEEN SENDING HER AN ENDLESS STREAM OF MIXED SIGNALS FOR AS LONG AS YOU'VE KNOWN HER. CCG: OH BULLSHIT. FCG: LIKE FUCK IT'S BULLSHIT. FCG: IT'S ALL TOO CLEAR TO ME NOW. IT'S A CLASSIC CASE OF QUADRANT VACILLATION, AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW IT. FCG: NO WONDER SHE WAS FRUSTRATED AND GOT FED UP WITH YOU. .... FCG: YOU WANT HER IN EVERY QUADRANT LIKE A DESPERATE FOOL. FCG: DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU'VE BECOME? YOU ARE THE SAD JOKE CHARACTER IN THE ROMCOM, YOU KNOW THE GUY I'M TALKING ABOUT. FCG: WHO'S GREEDY AND INDISCRIMINATE ABOUT FILLING EVERY QUADRANT, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO IT, AND IN THE END HAS FUCKALL TO SHOW FOR IT. Troll society actively DEMONIZES people who want a relationship that fills every quadrant, even though by human standards we would consider a multifaceted relationship to be normal. Likewise, human society (traditionally) demonizes people who want a relationship that is non-heterosexual, even though trolls would consider being attracted to different genders normal. If the "transcending the quadrants" thing is accurate, Karkat is ACTUALLY the troll equivalent of an alternate sexuality, and maybe that's why none of his relationships in the past worked out--not because of incompatible genders, but because of incompatible needs relating to quadrants. In that sense, Karkat putting EXTRA emphasis on the importance of quadrants is pretty similar to Dave putting EXTRA emphasis on gay jokes and an ironic cool guy facade. Dave and Karkat are literally perfect for each other when you look at it that way, and their relationship arcs parallel each other. Karkat needed an alien to help him get over his complex about fitting neatly into society's ideals about quadrants... Dave needed an alien to help him get over his complex about fitting society's ideals about masculinity and gender. Both of them are happier for it. Goddammit. I can't believe this stupid comic is making me actually invested in shipping I didn't even like DaveKat that much as a pairing before, but either I'm reading way too much into it or there was a lot more depth there than we were giving it credit for. Goddamn a few days ago I was still neutral about Davekat but if you keep going like this you're going to make me an active Davekat shipper before Act 6 has even ended
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 5, 2016 21:14:07 GMT
So then, why is Karkat reacting the way he is? I just assumed he is as much shy about his intimate feelings as he is usually vocal about anything else; apart from the "interspecies" part, there is nothing really strange in a relationship between him and Dave (in whatever quadrant)... and all characters have already shown multiple times to just not give a f**k about the "interspecies" part. Karkat really has no reason to feel ashamed of anything... he just doesn't want his feelings talked about so openly by other people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 21:17:04 GMT
WELL... I find it INCREDIBLY hard to be surprised by ships because I never try to anticipate them coming. I did not see it coming. At all. But when it did happen (Vriskagram!) I didn't do anything with my surprise but smile approvingly and start to ship it. I wasn't floored, I didn't try to make sense of it, I didn't try to piece it into character... Well, I thought about how it would AFFECT them, not what factors made it reasonable to spring forth in the first place. I'm not good at continuity and predictions and what is and isn't "in character" - I thought Dave x DD was perfectly plausible, up until Cascade. Memento, your post has really been making me thinking about some other things, and now I wanna bring up the conversation Karkat and Dave have with John, because some previous aspects of this conversation really bugged me when I first read it. Dave's cageiness and him trying to come out to John but not finding the right words is understandable. But why is Karkat so cagey and nervous in this discussion. Throughout the conversation, he is embarrassed and wants it to stop, but there really isn't any reason, if we assume this is your run-of-the-mill flushed romance. When i first read this sequence, I figured Karkat was just suffering from second-hand embarrassment, but even then it was suspicious. And this second-hand embarrassment doesn't make sense with the rest of the trolls either. Everyone else knows they are in some kind of romantic relationship but they don't know what quadrant. So, there's also no reason for Karkat to have the same second-hand embarrassment when Dave has already "come out" as it were. So then, why is Karkat reacting the way he is? If we look at this conversation assuming Dave and Karkat are in a quadrantless relationship, his reluctance to talk about him and Dave's relationship even to John is understandable. And if he were to outright tell others that he and Dave were in a relationship than his troll friends would want to know what quadrant, and telling them that there is no quadrant would be super scandalous. This really could fit. Especially with how Vriska doesn't even know what quadrant they settled down in.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 21:23:07 GMT
As for Bro retroactively being abusive—it's really subjective and kind of depends on the reader's view. It's totally possible to read the sections featuring Bro's treatment of Dave as anywhere from "haha so hilariously weird" to "oh god he's a seriously abusive guy". The last part is especially important because if you take those sections seriously enough, you can definitely see Bro as an abusive guy, doing all the nightmare shit Dave described. And I know this first-hand through my third read, finding parts of those sections legitimately creepy. I guess for the sake of drama Hussie eventually came to draw readers to the "super-abusive" end of the Bro interpretation spectrum. Some argue it's abruptly making him retroactively much much worse, but early in Act 6 Dave makes it obvious he'd rather not meet his teen bro. He says: From page 6/006608, [A6I2] ==> DAVE: but i dont even know what to think about... ROSE: What? ROSE: Meeting a deceased figure of authority as a peer? DAVE: lets not even talk about it ok DAVE: can we slow down this meteor DAVE: delay the meetup DAVE: maybe fight jack for a little while
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Post by Octa21 on Apr 5, 2016 21:37:37 GMT
For those of you who got into the comic after the retcon, was Davekat any less surprising to you than it was to us serial readers? I caught up to Homestuck during the Gigapause so whilst technically not post retcon it was close enough to the end of the pre retcon section of the webcomic that I feel justified in answering. Whilst I tend not to anticipate what ships will occur DaveKat certainly seemed to flow naturally to me. I certainly wasn't expecting DaveKat (but then again I don't really expect any ship), but when it happened I was like 'Oh cool, I approve' and kind of left it at that.
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Post by badatnames on Apr 5, 2016 22:01:42 GMT
I don't contest that Davekat is canon, and I don't want to enter an argument on its merits, I find it weird that while everyone who works with Hussie is screaming about how it's so obviously canon, the story itself skirted around the issue. Is it just Hussie teasing the shippers, or am I imagining things?
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Post by The One Guy on Apr 5, 2016 22:10:29 GMT
Personally, I don't like Davekat, but it has nothing to do with the ship itself. I can see how they might go well together and I'm really not much of a shipper, so if they happen to form a relationship with each other, I don't particularly care one way or another. But it's the circumstances surrounding the pairing that have made me dislike it. In short, I feel like it's being shoved in my face, by both the fans and the author that it's a thing. When I watched Vriskagram, I did not see any hint of romance. In fact, I interpreted it as pretty clearly a Dave/Karkat/WV three way BFF situation. Yet Dave's rambling about it (which almost seemed anvilicious to me), the fandom saying it's obviously a thing, and the recent thing with Hussie signing the receipt feels like no one is even accepting of the possibility that it could be interpreted any other way, and it instinctively makes me want to push back.
As for "transcending the quadrants," well, mementovivere's long post did make me think that actually makes a lot of sense, but when you think about Dave's speech, he was not cagy about possibly being in a homosexual relationship, in fact he seemed to have come to terms with that. Rather, he was cagey about what sort of relationship it was. If indeed transcending the quadrants is a more multifaceted relationship like a human one, then why would Dave, a human, not recognize it as a human relationship? While mementovivere's idea is interesting, it doesn't seem to be what Hussie is going for. And if it's not that, then what? If it doesn't fall into line with what defines romance, then why are we calling it romance?
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 22:12:17 GMT
The story is skirting around its "canon-ness" because, according to memento's theory, Dave and Karkat don't want to talk about it because from both of their perspectives, it is a scandalous relationship in terms of the culture they both came from. From Dave's point of view, he has to come out to his friends as gay, specifically friends who may not understand that. From Karkat's point of view, he would have to reveal that his relationship is not in any one quadrant, which would go against the troll culture quadrant system. The important thing to note here is the quadrantless nature of the whole thing. If this theory is true, than that would explain why the story has not "revealed" their quadrant yet, becuase, in reality, Davekat doesn't fit into any of the quadrants neatly.
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 22:20:56 GMT
But it's the circumstances surrounding the pairing that have made me dislike it. In short, I feel like it's being shoved in my face, by both the fans and the author that it's a thing. When I watched Vriskagram, I did not see any hint of romance. In fact, I interpreted it as pretty clearly a Dave/Karkat/WV three way BFF situation. Yet Dave's rambling about it (which almost seemed anvilicious to me), the fandom saying it's obviously a thing, and the recent thing with Hussie signing the receipt feels like no one is even accepting of the possibility that it could be interpreted any other way, and it instinctively makes me want to push back. Yes yes yes yes. Shoved in my face is exactly what I see here, how people are refusing to acknowledge other interpretations, instead saying "DAVE AND KARKAT ARE CURRENTLY IN A RED RELATIONSHIP AND ARE IN NO POSITION TO BREAK UP DO NOT DENY IT", ignoring the various possibilities of a vacillating or diamond relationship, a former relationship, being on the verge of breaking up, whatever. To me it borders on an an informed relationship; not only that, but a loudly informed relationship. Unlike with other relationships, no character has questioned them, which kinda irks me. Even the less polarizing pairings have been questioned in-comic; it's pointed out that if John gets together with Roxy he would be dating his best friend's mom, and that Rose and Kanaya spend too much time together. Not to mention the dysfunctional relationships like Dirk and Jake. With Davekat nobody says much questioning about it. There is stuff worth questioning about it, evidence that it's at the very least a flawed relationship; for example, Karkat apparently never told Dave in all three years about his old black crush on John who was Dave's longtime best friend. I did not see any hint of romance in Vriskagram's Dave and Karkat scenes either, but that's arguably my tendency not to get stuff in fiction.
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 5, 2016 22:40:42 GMT
As for "transcending the quadrants," well, mementovivere's long post did make me think that actually makes a lot of sense, but when you think about Dave's speech, he was not cagy about possibly being in a homosexual relationship, in fact he seemed to have come to terms with that. Rather, he was cagey about what sort of relationship it was. You don't think it was cagey of him to back down before he confirmed to John whether he'd ever dated a boy in light of him asking Dirk how to come out later without actually using any of the words "gay," "bi," "pan," or "come out"?
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Post by The One Guy on Apr 5, 2016 22:54:33 GMT
As for "transcending the quadrants," well, mementovivere's long post did make me think that actually makes a lot of sense, but when you think about Dave's speech, he was not cagy about possibly being in a homosexual relationship, in fact he seemed to have come to terms with that. Rather, he was cagey about what sort of relationship it was. You don't think it was cagey of him to back down before he confirmed to John whether he'd ever dated a boy in light of him asking Dirk how to come out later without actually using any of the words "gay," "bi," "pan," or "come out"? Well, I based my statement on how I remember things, but it's been a while since I read that part; maybe I should look it over again.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 5, 2016 23:21:19 GMT
When I was speaking about Dave's caginess, I was indeed using his conversation with Dirk about coming out. Sorry if the reference wasn't clear. Obviously, both Karkat and Dave, by being in this relationship, are happier with who they are. it is more of the fear of their peer's reactions that is preventing them from being clear about the whole debacle.
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