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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 8, 2017 2:38:23 GMT
Well yes, but that's a false dichotomy. The descriptions don't even purport to cover the Aspects, but the people who have them. They all begin with "Those bound to the aspect of ___ are..." rather than "The aspect of ___ is...". I find it unlikely that an Aspect would have such a focus on an idea yet those bound by it having no particular interest in that idea. After all, what exactly does "Bound by Aspect" even mean if it's not about having an interest/fixation/talent for the ideas and concepts behind that Aspect? Firstly, you didn't actually explain why we can assume this quick and dirty interest test is still suitable for testing titles given by an omniscient cosmic entity, despite the numerable factors suggesting it isn't. Secondly, don't you think this is all a presuppositional fallacy? You assume that these other factors exist in order to hand wave away the poor match rate, then use said match rate to prove the existence of those factors? Thirdly, what exactly is "accuracy" if it has no correlation to the match rate of known data points? Because I'm pretty sure that's what accuracy is supposed to mean. In any case, if you think the test is capable of becoming more accurate, does that not implicitly suggest that the test may not be perfect in its current state, which could explain the poor match rate? A thought: The concept of luck or fortune, particularly GOOD luck, could be parsed through the language of Knowledge. Or specifically, the known, versus the UNknown. The concept of luck deals with chance, which is random, or unpredictable. A million tiny influences that lead to one result, seemingly untraceable. But if you can control your fortune, you are subtracting the amount of truly random influence on circumstances around you, replacing it with a much more reliable, predictable outcome. In a sense, replacing the unknown with the Known. After all, if you can say reliably, and be right, that certain events will always occur in your favor, such as always winning a coin toss, it can't really be called "luck" at all, because it isn't. It's more like fact, written by you into the fabric of reality. A fact you happen to have Knowledge of. If that sounds like a bit of a stretch, I think Rose's navigation of the furthest ring helps connect the two themes nicely. Her Knowledge helps clear a route, reliable and steady, through the otherwise unfathomable timespace of the void. And while I obviously write this for the sake of Vriska, I have also considered lately that she is someone who clearly understands that Knowledge is power, and she amasses the former to obtain the latter in many ways. This line of thought has merit. However: the amount of knowledge required for someone to reliably win a dice roll is pretty vast. Not just the force, angle etc to throw it, but also knowing all the errors your clumsy organic hands will make during the motion and correct them on the fly as well as knowing all the environmental factors that'd influence the dice's movement. At that level of awareness a Hero of Light would be approaching Omniscience and could feasibly simulate a variety of other Hero's powers too, which they don't seem to be capable of. It could be that a Light Hero's knowledge is specifically geared towards probabilities, but that's just another, more roundabout way of saying that Light is about Luck.
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axolotlSushi
Scampermaster
Hi, my name is That Bastard
Posts: 215
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by axolotlSushi on Dec 8, 2017 15:59:15 GMT
Hey, uh, so I was going through some old logs for, purely educational purposes, and I found this little gem that I thought would be quite appropriate to share right about now...
"UU: and anyway, one can hardly draw many conclUsions aboUt a player by aspect alone."
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Post by Gab on Dec 8, 2017 22:57:51 GMT
This line of thought has merit. However: the amount of knowledge required for someone to reliably win a dice roll is pretty vast. Not just the force, angle etc to throw it, but also knowing all the errors your clumsy organic hands will make during the motion and correct them on the fly as well as knowing all the environmental factors that'd influence the dice's movement. At that level of awareness a Hero of Light would be approaching Omniscience and could feasibly simulate a variety of other Hero's powers too, which they don't seem to be capable of. It could be that a Light Hero's knowledge is specifically geared towards probabilities, but that's just another, more roundabout way of saying that Light is about Luck. Well, I didn't mean it in exactly that way. I doubt Vriska has intelligence anywhere near that level. If anything, it's something her subconscious does, but more likely in my opinion is it isn't really "her" that's doing anything per se, so much as the forces of Light acting on her behalf. Again, with the case of Rose, she doesn't actually personally deduce the information about where and when to depart on their trip. That knowledge manifests itself upon her ascension. She's subject to visions and glimpses of information otherwise apparently beyond her control, I imagine somewhat like the clouds of Skaia. In Vriska's case, rather than the aspect of Light giving her knowledge, it rewrites the world around her a little bit, changing the unpredictable or even the unlikely into a known outcome, a foregone certainty. If she supposed she could roll her dice and get the optimal result, Light would intervene to make this so. She doesn't need to personally control the result beyond willing it to occur.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 8, 2017 23:56:03 GMT
I find it unlikely that an Aspect would have such a focus on an idea yet those bound by it having no particular interest in that idea. After all, what exactly does "Bound by Aspect" even mean if it's not about having an interest/fixation/talent for the ideas and concepts behind that Aspect. Presumably it's Hussies new equivalent for ___ player and hero of ___ for people who are niether heroes nor players. And besides, general interest in an Aspect is not listed in the descriptions due to its universality and perhaps to Hussie wanting to hang on to real Aspect definitions for a future work. You can see this when Calliope links Jade's interest in physics to her being a Space player, despite nothing of the sort being mentioned on the test. We don't have to assume anything. We can directly measure how suitable it is by comparing it to canon. We already know other factors which are no less important exist from canon. In fact, they were mentioned in canon earlier than anything to do with personality. First are actions. Per Calliope, Bards are defined as "one who invites destruction through their Aspect, or allows their Aspect to be destroyed." If you do neither of these things, you cannot, by definition, be a Bard. This is a problem for the idea that you always get the Aspect best suited to your personality, because as far as we know the game can only assign titles in whole chunks. It can't just refuse to give you a class and make you the Nothing of Breath. Thus, if you don't fit any of the 14+ statements describing ways to interact with the Aspect that you care most about and/or best fits your personality, the game will have to give you a different one. But classes have other conditions of their own. If you're a woman, but the only important thing you do with your best fitting Aspect is let it get destroyed, you still won't be able to get it, because even though the Bard class exists Sburb will refuse to let you have it. Leaning classes could also push you into another Aspect if, say, you could qualify as either a Thief of Blood or a Mage of Mind but not a Mage of Blood or a Thief of Mind. This is what's called the problem of "overfitting." A model that swerves wildly to perfectly include every data point is often worse than one that captures a general trend. An accurate model mapping features to groups is one that accurately captures how well the features predict a new data point's group. A model that perfectly sorts its training data into the correct groups even though the reality is that the given features alone aren't enough to predict that is a bad model, because it overstates the strength of the correlation between the features and the group classification. So sure, there may be more information about players of a given Aspect. And adding this new information could increase the accuracy a lot. But more likely is that it will only increase the accuracy moderately, and more likely than that is that it will increase the accuracy slightly or sort as many new people into the right Aspect as it sorts people who were in the right Aspect into a wrong one. And, just as likely, it could bring the accuracy down instead. I think that it's almost as likely that it could move down to 18% as it is to move up to 100%, with numbers near to the current 59% being far more likely.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 9, 2017 2:23:38 GMT
In Vriska's case, rather than the aspect of Light giving her knowledge, it rewrites the world around her a little bit, changing the unpredictable or even the unlikely into a known outcome, a foregone certainty. If she supposed she could roll her dice and get the optimal result, Light would intervene to make this so. She doesn't need to personally control the result beyond willing it to occur. So what you're saying is that Knowledge isn't involved in the process of manipulating probabilities, but rather the results of said process could be interpreted as bringing/creating Knowledge. It follows logically sure, but there are several other powers whose results produce Knowledge like that too, such as Time Travel and Seers in general. So this doesn't necessarily mean that Light's Luck powers are just an extension of the Knowledge facet because otherwise, half the other Titles would end up with "Knowledge" under their banner too. Presumably it's Hussies new equivalent for ___ player and hero of ___ for people who are niether heroes nor players. And besides, general interest in an Aspect is not listed in the descriptions due to its universality and perhaps to Hussie wanting to hang on to real Aspect definitions for a future work. You can see this when Calliope links Jade's interest in physics to her being a Space player, despite nothing of the sort being mentioned on the test. Yeah, but what does it actually mean though? If being "Bound by Aspect" is something completely different to "Being a Hero of Aspect" then that only reinforces, if not proves the idea that this test is completely inapplicable to the canon heroes. And when we do that we get only a 59% correlation, which isn't very good. Your original point was that this test's low correlation proves that there are other deciding factors to one's Classpect besides personality. Since Classes are a part of the Classpect, they don't count as one of these factors. It only re-states the obvious point that a test with Aspects, but not Classes isn't going to reliably assign Aspects to people with Classes because they so wildly vary the personality. A good point on the gender restrictions though. That is in fact definitive proof that Classpects have factors besides personality. So definitive in fact, we didn't even need this test to confirm that, rendering this whole discussion moot. (Well, actually I suppose it could be argued that since Skaia gets to control when and where baby!Players land, it controls the nurture side of one's being so it could deliberately ensure that all female players end up with personalities suitable for female titles and vice versa. The counter point is that the Cherubs weren't directed by Skaia but they were still expected to fall into gendered roles.)
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 10, 2017 0:32:49 GMT
And when we do that we get only a 59% correlation, which isn't very good. I don't understand the objection to the number. Based on the rest of your post, you think that Aspects shouldn't line up with players if you don't take classes into account. But an Aspect only test that is only partially correct is what you would expect in that case. Like, surely if the test were 100% spot on even without classes, that would have just proved you wrong, wouldn't it? So the test's accuracy lines up with your theories just fine. I'm personally expecting the classes to have profiles in the same style as the Aspect ones we just got, and to map to canon characters roughly as well. Basically, I'd theorize they'll include at least: Witches are cheerful and energetic, Sylphs are meddlesome busybodies. Thieves are greedy and driven, Rogues have trouble going after their own desires instead of looking out for other people's feelings. Maids feel chained by responsibilities they don't want, Heirs are easily bossed around but are okay with it. Mages... ?, Seers are haughty and overconfident. Princes hate their aspect, Bards... ? Knights project a false personality to cover up their insecurities, Pages start off as pathetic and unable to fend for themselves.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 10, 2017 1:41:11 GMT
I don't understand the objection to the number. Based on the rest of your post, you think that Aspects shouldn't line up with players if you don't take classes into account. But an Aspect only test that is only partially correct is what you would expect in that case. Like, surely if the test were 100% spot on even without classes, that would have just proved you wrong, wouldn't it? So the test's accuracy lines up with your theories just fine. In theory, an Aspect only test could be 100% accurate to the canon characters. It'd just need to have a radically different way of describing the Aspects to how this test does so. Aspects aren't personalities, so trying to explain an Aspect in the form of a personality is always going to either A) lose nuance/scope in translation, and/or B) Contaminate the description with new elements. I don't think they should have similar profiles, because they're totally different types of things. It's the difference between a Noun and a Verb(Which is incidentally the format that all known titles follow), and these descriptions are like the example sentences dictionaries use. You couldn't take a verb's sentence like "He ran to the store." and just reuse it for a noun like "He table to the store."
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Post by Gab on Dec 10, 2017 3:48:02 GMT
So what you're saying is that Knowledge isn't involved in the process of manipulating probabilities, but rather the results of said process could be interpreted as bringing/creating Knowledge. It follows logically sure, but there are several other powers whose results produce Knowledge like that too, such as Time Travel and Seers in general. So this doesn't necessarily mean that Light's Luck powers are just an extension of the Knowledge facet because otherwise, half the other Titles would end up with "Knowledge" under their banner too. I don't think that's the case. Firstly, like I said, it's not so much that knowledge is the output of Light-based abilities or attributes, but the core of the Aspect, the source of power as well as the motivation that drives those bound by it, even Vriska in less obvious ways. For that matter, my point was to illustrate how Luck, in a sense, is closely related to the concept of Knowledge above all others (at least those relevant in aspects). Heart and Mind deal with identity and self. Life and Doom deal with humanity and emotion. Breath and Blood deal with societal bonds. Hope and Rage deal with the impact one has on the future. Well, more or less. In my opinion, anyway. Basically, they all deal with choices one makes during their life, and outlooks they have about themselves, each other, and their potential. In comparison, a concept like Luck really only comes into play with Space and Time, which sort of vaguely deals with one's outlook on life's challenges and their general temperament, and Light and Void, which deal with understanding the world around them. To be clear, I'm not trying to argue against or disparage you, I think luck is something fundamental that has to do with both Light and Void, since people bound by either aspect are driven by the same basic thing. As discussed, the Light-bound are driven to understand. The Void-bound, I think, already understand that not everything can be understood, at least not by lowly mortals of our caliber. To the Light-bound, like Vriska, luck is just another integer dictating the laws of reality. And to a power gamer like her, they're a statistic, a commodity that can be dispersed, amassed and put to use. Perhaps someone bound by Void would see it another way. A way I can't describe nearly as well because I don't identify nearly as closely with that Aspect as I do it's counterpart. But probably in a way copacetic with their outlook on the universe. That not everything has, or needs an answer. That some things are beyond comprehension, and perhaps better off that way. But I'm not one to say. The point is that these two Aspects are the one best suited to include a concept such as that.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 10, 2017 23:03:24 GMT
I don't think they should have similar profiles, because they're totally different types of things. It's the difference between a Noun and a Verb(Which is incidentally the format that all known titles follow), and these descriptions are like the example sentences dictionaries use. You couldn't take a verb's sentence like "He ran to the store." and just reuse it for a noun like "He table to the store." So how do you explain the commonalities between members of the same class, then? Some of them may be coincidence, but all of them? The Knight one is especially striking in how specific and obvious it is in all three Knights, and it stays constant regardless of the Knight's aspect.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 11, 2017 2:08:26 GMT
I don't think they should have similar profiles, because they're totally different types of things. It's the difference between a Noun and a Verb(Which is incidentally the format that all known titles follow), and these descriptions are like the example sentences dictionaries use. You couldn't take a verb's sentence like "He ran to the store." and just reuse it for a noun like "He table to the store." So how do you explain the commonalities between members of the same class, then? Some of them may be coincidence, but all of them? The Knight one is especially striking in how specific and obvious it is in all three Knights, and it stays constant regardless of the Knight's aspect. I think that such things are emergent properties. If we take Page for instance(and assume they're some sort of Passive Server/Giver as most believe so) Skaia assigns Titles partly(perhaps mostly) on personality. So what sort of personality would we expect to selflessly provide Aspect? Someone who really appreciates the positives of an Aspect while neglecting/downplaying the negatives is an obvious option. What sort of person upsells the positives and downplays the negatives? A fanboy, to put it simply. So therefore, even though the Class is simply based on a single verb with no other traits being necessary, it ends up with many Pages naively adoring their Aspects anyway. EDIT: Plus, Calliope does say UU: in this case, a rogUe or a thief is "one who steals." qUite simple, really!So to ascribe anything more than a verb to a class would seem to be going against canon exposition about what a Class entails.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 11, 2017 23:57:08 GMT
So how do you explain the commonalities between members of the same class, then? Some of them may be coincidence, but all of them? The Knight one is especially striking in how specific and obvious it is in all three Knights, and it stays constant regardless of the Knight's aspect. I think that such things are emergent properties. If we take Page for instance(and assume they're some sort of Passive Server/Giver as most believe so) Skaia assigns Titles partly(perhaps mostly) on personality. So what sort of personality would we expect to selflessly provide Aspect? Someone who really appreciates the positives of an Aspect while neglecting/downplaying the negatives is an obvious option. What sort of person upsells the positives and downplays the negatives? A fanboy, to put it simply. So therefore, even though the Class is simply based on a single verb with no other traits being necessary, it ends up with many Pages naively adoring their Aspects anyway. EDIT: Plus, Calliope does say UU: in this case, a rogUe or a thief is "one who steals." qUite simple, really!So to ascribe anything more than a verb to a class would seem to be going against canon exposition about what a Class entails. Yeah, but that can't explain the many personality traits members of a Class have in common which do not change regardless of what Aspect they have, which is most of the ones I listed. Calliope also immediately follows that up by explaining that there is more to Rogues and Thieves that separates them. She also states that Bards are a "wildcard role" and that they often have "spontaneoUs and dramatic story-altering inflUence on the fate of a party", proving that there is more that is incidentally true about members of a Class beyond just the definition.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 12, 2017 5:26:21 GMT
Yeah, but that can't explain the many personality traits members of a Class have in common which do not change regardless of what Aspect they have, which is most of the ones I listed. Well, okay then. Let's go through them. "Witches are cheerful and energetic" I would disagree with this one. Feferi is cheerful. Damara and Jade are not. Jade can be cheerful at times, but she's just as often either frustrated or just getting down to business. She's more polite than anything. "Heirs are easily bossed around but are okay with it." It may be that Heirs are one of the more Passive classes, and thus are inclined to roll with the will of others. It could also be linked to the Verb if it is something like Shape/Transform, so that they allow themselves to be shaped by others. "Maids feel chained by responsibilities they don't want" I don't think Jane or Aradia had many issues with their responsibilities. Jane seemed pretty keen to take on Crocker Corp, and Aradia took to her shepherding glee with perturbing glee. "Sylphs are meddlesome busybodies." If Sylphs are Passive healers as evidence suggests, then of course they'd have a tendency to concern themselves with the well being of others. "Thieves are greedy and driven" Kind of a given for someone who steals "Rogues have trouble going after their own desires instead of looking out for other people's feelings." They are a Passive Class, a focus on others over themselves is more-or-less required. Also, Roxy subverts the trend by hitting on Dirk for her own fantasies, so not sure if this even counts as a trait anyway. "Knights project a false personality to cover up their insecurities" Knights are most likely Active, and a feeling of inadequacy can be a good motive to kick yourself into action to get things done.* "Seers are haughty and overconfident." A great motivation for such a Class: If you find yourself perpetually overconfident, the best thing to do may be to just back it up with the actual competence to justify that confidence, thus they are driven to better themselves through learning. "Princes hate their aspect" An obvious motive for someone who destroys. So much so, that a Prince that doesn't hate/fear their Aspect doesn't even really make sense to me. "Pages start off as pathetic and unable to fend for themselves." Somewhat expected for people who put too much stock in the Aspect they don't actually have a firm grasp on. Delegating all their agency to an entity that fails to reciprocate. This is all in line with what I'm saying: The Class, at it's very core, can be described by just a Verb and is Active/Passive sway. But through consequence, extrapolation and a need for such people to have motives for the role, many other likely/common traits can be derived. *A secondary note about the Knights' facades: If you are taking this test as canon and accurate, it's worth mentioning that between the Mind-bound being identity-fluid and not caring about presenting their true self, Blood-bound being a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do type, which could easily lead them to hide their shortcomings, and Derse dreamers in general prone to having masks, all 3 Knights have potential explanations for their facades from sources other than the fact that they're Knights.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 13, 2017 2:46:49 GMT
An obvious motive for someone who destroys. So much so, that a Prince that doesn't hate/fear their Aspect doesn't even really make sense to me. Kurloz seems mostly okay to positive about his Aspect, though admittedly we don't have the full story on what Rage is yet. Fair enough, but I'm highly doubtful we'll even get verbs for the classes on their test. At best they'll be laid out in a line at the top of the page and we'll be able to justify that as the active/passive ordering scale.
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Post by ashercrane on Jul 2, 2018 21:10:03 GMT
I'm not sure if anybody is even around who was on here anymore, but have we ever discussed the possibility of active classes act from their own desires, while passive classes react to others, as opposed to being acted upon or anything?
Like how Eridan said during his breakup with Federi that he knew what was going to happen, implying he destroyed his own hope before he could even be rejected, while Cronus destroyed his own hope as a reaction having been rejected.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 3, 2018 5:18:53 GMT
It's possible. The Active/Passive dichotomy has that Self vs. Others axis, and since any action needs a motivation behind it, it could certainly be that the motivations come from the Self for Active Classes while Passive Classes act on/for the motivations of others.
But with the Active/Passive sway having so many different facets, I doubt this rule would hold true at all times. But it is an interesting avenue to explore.
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Post by ashercrane on Jul 15, 2018 23:43:28 GMT
So, I’ve been looking at the extended Zodiac definitions, and despite how off Light seems, every other canonically defined and applied classes in homestuck work pretty well with them.
“Those bound to the aspect of Heart are very concerned with their favorite subject: themselves. It wouldn't be a stretch to call them 'self-obsessed', but not necessarily in a negative way. They simply want to understand the one thing we all are stuck with for our entire lives, i.e. our own minds. Forging an identity is extremely important to the Heart-bound, and every decision and action goes toward building a coherent narrative of their own story. That isn't to say Heart-bound don't care deeply for their friends and allies; they just have a tendency to assume that everyone is as concerned with identity as they are. They are excellent at putting on and taking off masks as the situation calls for them. At their best, they are competent, imaginative, and steady. At their worst they can be overbearing, inflexible, and cold.”
Dirk fits this pretty well. He was clearly pretty obsessed with his own identity, particularly with how destructive it could be. His whole conversation with Lil’ Hal on the roof in the primary example of this. He also says at a different point that Roxy is everything he wishes he could be in a person, but can’t because he’s in his own way, and that the main reason he couldn’t be with he is that he needs to stay true to himself. At the same time, he realizes how destructive his possessive, domineering nature can be, and does his best to be logical and thoughtful in a lot of cases.
Nepeta is a bit of a weird one, but one way I was looking at is that clearly Rufioh only really does breathy things is when someone else is supporting him, so I looked at Nepeta in the same light. A lot of her actions are based on what other people say she can do, and a lot of her actions (Romantically, in particularly) are based on what other people might feel. She plays on the blue team because Equius says has to, and part of the reason she never confessed to Karkat was because she worried she’d hurt someone else, or that Karkat would reject her. So she is really focused on her own identity and toward building a coherent narrative of her story, she’s just more focused on building an identity based on what others think of her, therefore, she allows herself to “steal” (or just take on) the heart or identity that others give her, and she invites others to take things from her based on the more submissive and socially anxious personality she’s build based on that.
Hope: Those bound to the aspect of Hope are driven first and foremost by their convictions. They do right for right's sake, and are quick to come to the aid of anyone they deem to be experiencing injustice. That said, their views of the world can be quite black and white, so what they see as the "right" thing may not always be the universally accepted view. They put great value in the power of the imagination, the ability to dream up a better and more beautiful future. If anyone could dream a better world into existence, it would be one of the Hope-bound. They may sound like all sunshine and rainbows, but they aren't adverse to a little destruction, especially if they think they can replace it with something better and more just. At their best, Hope-bound are positive, caring, and warm. At their worst they can be narrow-minded and selfish.
Eridan is clearly very focused on his own convictions and his desire to fix things, which are immediately clearly very destructive. He believes land dwellers need to die for the good of all, and therefore intends to kill them all. He also has a great imagination, and dreams of himself being a great general. However, he’s also perfectly able to destroy his own convictions and imagination, as proven by how he is dedicated to no letting himself imagine the possibility that magic might exist, and he implies that he never really expected Feferi to love him, even though he intended to confess, not truly believing he had a good future with her. Feferi even suggests that his doomsday devices fail because deep down he knows destroying all the lad dwellers is wrong, meaning that by creating the doomsday devices, he is trying to destroy his more deeply held conviction that it’s wrong, while that same more deeply held conviction that it’s wrong keeps sabotaging his more surface conviction that all land dwellers need to die. He also ends up actively destroying his own convictions when he believes that there’s no choice to survive unless they join up with jack, and destroys the possibility of a “better and more beautiful future” when he destroys the matriorb and kills Feferi.
Cronus, as opposed to Eridan, seems pretty optimistic right up until someone ends up rejecting him, and only turns bitter and angry after he gets rejected (or messes up and assumes he’ll be rejected). Cronus’s backstory lays out his bard personality pretty well. He started out believing that he was destined to defeat an evil wizard as a result of that evil wizard attacking him as a youth, but it deflected and sealed the magician’s power away. This could pretty easily be defined as Cronus basically inviting the wizard to come face him and be destroyed by his convictions. At the same time, it’s also explained how he allowed his convictions and imagination to be destroyed because “perhaps” a close friend talked him out of it. Someone who was in league with the magician. Cronus also almost lets his conviction about being Humankin get destroyed simply because Meenah accused him of using it to get attention.
Orphaner Dualscar: Orphaner Dualscar allowed Mindfang to destroy his imagination in a better future (for him) with her by seeing her with the Dolorosa, and he invited his own destruction as well as mindfang’s by going to the highblood in the conviction that the hemospectrum should be upheld (since he was disgusted by Mindfang’s blatant disregard for it) and his apparently belief that the world would be better off without her, and then he failed the joke.
Rage: Those bound to the aspect of Rage are bringers of chaos. They posses great contempt for lies or false ideas, including the stability that false ideas can impart. To them, the true is far more important than the good; they would tear down a system just to destabilize it if, by their reckoning, it is built on faulty premises. Often the Rage-bound prefer anarchy to any of the alternate forms of civilization, which they believe to be riddled with lies and foolishness and obedient masses. They are bringers of confusion and doubt, and they can be frustratingly difficult to convince otherwise when they have attached themselves to an idea. If they sound dangerous, they are. The Rage-bound tend to be most volatile and unpredictable of the aspects. At their best they are original, revolutionary, and fearless. At their worst they are cruel, uncompromising, and vicious.
Gamzee: Gamzee clearly initially let his rage get destroyed by the sopor slime pie, and people have argued that it was because his father was gone or that his friends dismissed him. Either way, when he lost it, he becomes a great example of a Bard of Rage. He began to systematically tear down a lot of what kept the meteor stable, under the idea that he now knew the truth of what was going on. However, he never quite killed anyone unprovoked. His was simply so angry that it basically invited people to do things that made him want to kill them. For example, by telling Equius to kneel so quietly, Gamzee was basically just begging Equius to not hear him so that Gamzee could get angry and kill him. Gamzee killing Equius was destined to make anyone watching nearby angry, inviting Nepeta to attack him and get killed. At the same time, Equius also destroyed people’s knowledge of the truth. He allowed Terezi to think that Vriska had killed Nepeta and Equius, destroying her knowledge of the truth of the situation (Rage) letting Terezi’s convictions (Hope) force her to go confront Vriska.
Kurloz: Kurloz may seem like he’s opposite his aspect, and Kurloz is working off what he knows to be true. He’s just (similar to Gamzee), destroying it in others in order to keep everyone placid and complacent. Part of Kurloz’s whole role in the Alpha party seemed to be in order to keep everyone complacent, honestly. Mituna’s backstory says that Kurloz was the only one there when Mituna burnt himself out, implying he may have been part of the reason. Mituna tried to tell people the truth, destabilize things, help people to move, and Kurloz shut it down. Similarly, Kurloz is a servant of Lord English, and as an Alpha troll, could theoretically be considered friend to Cronus, meaning he could have been the one to convince Cronus the Wizard backstory and magic were false. Cronus believed it was his destiny to defeat lord english, had the potential to shake things up, and Kurloz shot him down. Kurloz also had his own outburst, and deafened Meulin. He was the one who made things different, shook things up, etc., and he was horrified by whatever truth his nightmare had shown him. So, he destroyed any ability for the truth to harm anyone else taking a vow of silence, chewing off his tongue and sowing his mouth shut.
The Grand Highblood: The Grand Highblood was clearly dedicated to keeping the lowbloods in the dark about their true power, destroying the truth that the lowbloods were capable of revolting and destabilizing the whole system. At the same time, he apparently had enough of temper that one bad joke resulted in murder.
Void: Those bound to the aspect of Void are the universe's secret-keepers. The unknown doesn't scare them-where others might see emptiness, they see potential. A blank page, an empty canvas, that's what the Void-bound live for. They value mystery and the unexplained, and are not particularly bothered by not having all the answers. Where others might be compelled to go out and seek answers, the Void-bound lean more toward casting doubt on what is already considered fully understood. They don't take much on faith and would rather live in a state of confusion than believe something that might be untrue or bow to intellectual authority. After all, in order for something new to be built, the old, rotting foundation must often be razed. At their best, Void-bound are wise, intuitive, and vibrant. At their worst they can be dismissive, indecisive, and apathetic.
Roxy is a little bit weird applying to this definition, but she was definitely willing to let herself take other people’s lack of knowledge. There’s a specific part where Dirk mentions that Roxy willingly pushed all of her problems out of the spotlight, never making anything about her, She just focused on trying to help everyone else and keep everyone together. So she herself took on everyone else’s lack of knowledge, keeping herself in the background leaving her own problems secret. She wasn’t bothered that nobody knew anything about her problems.
Breath Those bound to the aspect of Breath are, above all, expansive. Flexible and driven, they leave an impact wherever they go. Like the breeze itself, they are able to sweep others up to carry along in their wake, but also like the breeze, they can be difficult to catch hold of or tie down. Although Breath-bound do make very good leaders, breath tends to be a very personal aspect. Often, heroism comes along as an offshoot of them pursuing their own personal stories. They lead by example, and will routinely be surprised that others look up to or feel inspired by them. They have a tendency to underestimate themselves, and not always out of poor self-esteem. They were just doing their own thing. At their best Breath-bound are motivated, adaptable, and forward thinking, but at their worst they can be volatile, avoidant, and gullible.
Rufioh was certainly all of those things and more, but as I said earlier, only after he had support of others. Initially he was self-conscious about his wings and the way others looked at him, so he left the city. Then, when he found the lost weaboos, people who enjoyed the same things he did, he did a bunch of great things. He was “8ane to the enemies of hijinks, scourge of the seafaring classes… (he) threw down a daggerlance to challenge the guild’s high seme for dominance…” etc. Once he had others to support him, he was able to do everything that the breath paragraph explains. He even allowed the breath they had given him to drive him to take their leadership, which based on the paragraph above seems to be under breath. Once he lost all of those people, he had no one to support him, so he was a lot more self conscious, and stopped being a lot of what the breath paragraph describes. He allowed Horuss to take away all of his autonomy and direction, and the only person he could really take inspiration and confidence from was Tinkerbull.
The Summoner: The summoner was significantly better on this. The Cavalreapers were inspired by his wings, and so allowed himself to take the inspiration and leadership that they were giving him to command the cavalreapers. When he started his rebellion, he used that breath to invite the lowbloods to take back the things that the highbloods had taken from them, and to rise up.
Life: Those bound to the aspect of Life are the universe's healers. They are concerned with the betterment of themselves and those around them, as well as the onward march of positive progress. Deeply empathetic, they have an intuitive understanding of other's suffering and the best way of righting those wrongs. If you're poisoned, chances are the Life-bound have something for what ails ya. This applies to both physical and mental suffering, though it might not be a cure you'll like. They also have the tendency to put other's needs before their own, which never ends well for anyone, because the Life-bound can grow bitter if they feel their own self-care has had to be shunted aside. At their best, they are great listeners, caretakers, and nurturers. At their worst, the Life-bound are passive aggressive, and pushy-they're certain they know best.
Apart from Light and Vriska, this is about the only one I really struggled with.
Meenah was being raised to be the princess who was designed to go help everyone else. She didn’t want to do that, so she took all the help she was supposed to give to everyone else, dedicating it to her own problem. This… sort of works semanticall by saying that she took he healing rightfully belonging to others and focused it on herself. Bit of a stretch, but it technically works. She took any way she should have helped other people, and helped herself with it instead. She begged John not to let her take the ring that would have fixed her problem of being dead, because she was worried that she was destined to take that chance to fix death from someone else. She was definitely bitter that other’s needs went before her own. You could also argue that she took any progressive action that she could have taken as an empress to fix the whole patronizing culture of beforus, and by running away, took it for herself rather than anyone else. She took any concern for the betterment of those around her, and focused it squarely on herself.
It the same for the Condesce, since she focused any desire for making things better into a desire to make things better for her. She was completely focused on immediately fixing any problems that she had, and leaving society to rot as long as she got all of her whims catered to.
So, really, a lot of these do seem to apply to the aspect quiz's paragraphs... and then you hit Vriska. I went through the rest of the classes as I was thinking I understood them (Which I wasn't doing very thoroughly) and Vriska is literally the only person that fit's her aspect paragraph as badly as she does.
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Post by Gab on Jul 21, 2018 20:26:15 GMT
Vriska's sign, Scorpio, is also known as the Sign of the Conqueror. It's also Aranea's sign. The aspect of Light is interpreted not just through her class, but also her caste disposition. This helps understand how Light plays a role in Vriska's life. This one's pretty easy, Vriska already fits both descriptions. This one also fits her pretty well. She's a natural-born power gamer after all. As above, we know Vriska is driven and will go after whatever she wants no matter how much she has to sacrifice to get it. It's the second half that takes a little looking closer to understand. A lot of what Vriska (or (Vriska)) does in Act 6 can easily be parsed as seeking knowledge at great consequence. Sacrificing ghosts to create cracks that fill out a map to an ultimate treasure. And after the retcon, the mysterious reconnaissance she embarks on upon arriving at the B2 session. This I think is the lynchpin to understanding how Light makes itself relevant(hehe) to Vriska. It feels like a no-brainer to diagnose Aranea as a knowitall bookworm, a shoe-in for Light-bound poster child. To someone like Vriska, though, knowledge is power. Understanding of the bigger picture, of enemy tactics and weaknesses. Knowing shortcuts and loopholes and what you can get away with. Discerning the location of a powerful endgame weapon. And so on. But we know the things that really define Vriska's arc and character are luck and relevance, things that I think aren't terribly difficult to tie into the broad concept of knowledge. Luck is another way of describing random chance or unknown quantities. But knowledge is certain and precise. Manipulating luck is the same as determining an uncertain outcome, controlling the world around you by turning the unknown or unlikely into known certainties. As for relevance, hmm... well all Light-bound seem to crave attention? Um, I guess this kind of plays with the definitions of "known" and "unknown," interplaying with the Void's domain of secrecy and irrelevance. Maybe Light-bound want to be known and acknowledged as solemnly as they themselves seek for knowledge, to have the opportunity to put their knowledge to use, and rewarded for it? That's kind of just improvised theorizing, what do you think about that? I feel like there could be a more concrete connection than that, but I can't think of it just now. EDIT: This theory post by optimisticDuelist, among other things, I think paints a pretty compelling picture tying the other aspects (hah... hah?) of Light to relevance.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 22, 2018 6:32:18 GMT
But we know the things that really define Vriska's arc and character are luck and relevance, things that I think aren't terribly difficult to tie into the broad concept of knowledge. Luck is another way of describing random chance or unknown quantities. But knowledge is certain and precise. Manipulating luck is the same as determining an uncertain outcome, controlling the world around you by turning the unknown or unlikely into known certainties. I never was a fan of this argument. For one thing, it pitches Luck and Knowledge as being opposite things, which would logically mean one should belong to Void, instead of both being Light. For another thing, while the base logic is sound in that, yes, knowledge and making unknowns known can be used to 'fix' outcomes that would normally be up to luck, I think we should consider how that would be implemented. Take Dice Rolls for instance: This train of thought posits that the reason Vriska can get 8 8s is not through manipulating Luck itself, but because she has the exact knowledge on how the throw the dice, the exact angle, direction, spin etc. to get the result she wants(not to mention the precision of motor control to actually pull off such a specific hand motion in the heat of the moment). That's a considerable amount of Knowledge to be able to summon at will, and has an extraordinary range of applications outside of Dice throwing that would make such a Hero of Light pretty OP. Some might argue that the nature of Title powers ensures that such a Knowledge-Summon can only ever be done for Luck-themed actions such as Dice, and while I can't say that's wrong, I personally don't like such arbitrary limits on Title powers. Plus, this line of thought has some other implications, such as how it seems to play off of Terezi's "Luck doesn't matter" even though the implication is that this line is the Mind attitude, not Light's and also implies the world(of Homestuck at least) is fully deterministic, which is a whole other can of worms. That's not to say I think this connection is totally trash. I do think Light and Void both have common themes in both Information(or lack thereof) and also Potential(which covers Light's probability and Void's Blank-Canvas-thingy). And I think this line of thinking is a good way to tie them together. I just don't think one has to be an emergent property of the other. I think that within Homestuck's sometimes-literal-sometimes-metaphorical physics, Knowledge and Luck are both 'Forces' that can be independently manipulated without having to involve the other as a cause.
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Post by Gab on Jul 25, 2018 16:26:07 GMT
That's not to say I think this connection is totally trash. I do think Light and Void both have common themes in both Information(or lack thereof) and also Potential(which covers Light's probability and Void's Blank-Canvas-thingy). And I think this line of thinking is a good way to tie them together. I just don't think one has to be an emergent property of the other. I think that within Homestuck's sometimes-literal-sometimes-metaphorical physics, Knowledge and Luck are both 'Forces' that can be independently manipulated without having to involve the other as a cause. It was my basic point to unite the themes together in a way that seems logical, so that's fine. There's plenty of ways Vriska uses her powers that have nothing at all to do with knowledge in any literal way, such as making the floor collapse from under a large monster. Actually, Potential is a pretty good way of putting it now that you mention it.
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Post by ashercrane on Dec 28, 2019 22:03:54 GMT
Well, while this is technically a necro, most things in this part of the forums are anyway. Anyone have any thoughts on Aradia's route in pesterchum? I dunno if people care about spoilers, but I'll tag them anyway. How to phrase Aradia's fixing MC's timelines as "creation", or perhaps what MC's Class and aspect are, since Aradia alluded to him/her having one? Also, while no one will read this, as it's a dead thread, and I can't make a new post without double posting or deleting this and making it look double necro'd, the Heir class is confirmed passive in Book 6 commentary.
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