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Post by legendary on Jun 29, 2016 5:37:09 GMT
I'd say that Mindfang only really functions as a Sylph of Light if you consider her real role in the story: influencing Vriska. Of all the trolls, she sought to emulate her ancestor the most, and thus Mindfang didn't so much heal Vriska as foster qualities that are actually very negative.
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Post by vaiyt on Jun 29, 2016 14:41:29 GMT
In a topic switch, as the last message was posed ten days ago, have we discussed the Ancestor's classpect: Dancestors or Descendants yet? Like, are we all in agreement that they have the classpects of one or the other? And, on the off chance that everyone agrees they get it from the Dancestors, how does Mindfang fit with the Sylph of Light role of Aranea? They are an odd bunch when it comes to their pseudo-Titles that's for sure. Some of them, like The Condesce, the Signless very closely match their A1 Alt-selves, while others like Mindfang and The Grand Highblood appear to be more similar to their descendants. Others like The Summoner could arguably go either way. I don't there's ny particularly meaningful reason for this. I think either Hussie hadn't yet planned for the Beforans and their Titles at that point, or he knew that they would be very minor characters and didn't mind them being much looser with their Titles. .I prefer to put on my Doylist hat when dealing with inconsistencies, so I'll go with this. Maybe it's my experience with comics fandom, where inconsistencies are a constant hazard and the Watsonian approach leads to way more headache than is warranted.
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Post by heyitskane on Jun 30, 2016 12:49:41 GMT
Ok, so you know the theory about how davepeta is a knight of heart, knight of time, rogue of heart, and rogue of time all at once? Try applying that theory to lord English. He technically has sixteen titles! Some of the most prominent seem to be the various princes, especiall6 of void and heart. Any other titles that you think lord English features prominently.
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Post by vaiyt on Jun 30, 2016 14:47:07 GMT
Ok, so you know the theory about how davepeta is a knight of heart, knight of time, rogue of heart, and rogue of time all at once? Try applying that theory to lord English. He technically has sixteen titles! Some of the most prominent seem to be the various princes, especiall6 of void and heart. Any other titles that you think lord English features prominently. That English incorporates the classes and aspects of his components does make sense in a way. His main agent, Doc Scratch, indirectly spreads his work through deception (=Rage), as do Gamzee and Kurloz, who both have classes and aspects that match English's components. He has the ring of void to sneak up unnoticed in places where he has no business being (which is an ability both Equius and ARquiusprite also manifested). He's split between multiple instances across the timeline (familiar?). His final act is to shatter the Furthest Ring (=destroying Void). More parallels could be found.
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Post by Kinkykluts on Jul 1, 2016 8:02:01 GMT
I have been ttrying to figure out my homestuck aspect for like ever please help
I am a person who is very pessimistic half the time and is overly optimistic the other half
anytime i get hurt i change, alittle, gain a new quirk or so. or suffer from a new trauma, maybe fix an old one
i drive people away by pulling them to close, however when someone clings to me i drive them away or atleast want to badly
i wanna be noticed but constantly feel like im unimportant or invisible
i belive i am special and will rise to greatness half the time but the other half i feel like all my dreams are pointless
i am very emotional but in the presence of others i hide that emotion and think purley with intelect
i am very smart but unless im being observed i tend to think with my heart first anf can be impulsive.
i over think things
i over complicate things
i break deals after i get what i want often
i make deals often and always get my side of it
people tell me there secrets.
i keep almost everything secret about me
i am nocturnal
i am great with getting what i want
i am terrible at being restricted
i hate religion and such
i love science
i never give up on a few important dreams
i am bad at holding myself back from my guilty pleasures
i am good at using guilty pleasures of others to get my way
i feel guilty about my way
people always see me first as really sweet and innocent but later find out im very perverted and can be very evil.
despite me solo driving people away i keep groups of people from hating each other.
most tests make me a page, knight, or thief.
most tests make me a hope, doom, or void player.
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Post by heyitskane on Jul 1, 2016 11:33:55 GMT
Yeah, I personally think you might be a doom player. Don't quote me on that because I don't really know what I'm talking about when I comes to personalities of titles.
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Post by Neptz on Jul 1, 2016 19:01:28 GMT
You are pretty much the same as me with the exception of being 'very evil' (I am perverted, though ). I am also super depressed so I am almost never a optimist. I don't like using guilty pleasures or exploiting people to get my way, but I Do get my way pretty often and usually unintentionally. I'd say you're a doom player. Class is hard to decide though. You seem to have good intentions, but often exploit others, so I'd say you're a Thief.
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Post by Kinkykluts on Jul 2, 2016 8:17:01 GMT
my only issue with doom is i am not good at dealing with restrictions on myself aswell as me making sacrifices, i cling to everything. i never give up my parts of me. plus i was depressed when i wrote that and the good emotions i have didnt show how good i can be, it mostly showed my bad sides in it, i hide behind masks. i over exaggerate my bad traits. i am a bleeding heart and can be easily hurt emotionally. i believe everyone can change and can be good. i only hurt and use people to survive in the far more toxic environment i live in. in normal and calm environments i am benign, and sometimes beneficial. i get very anxious and depressed. but when happy and calm i am a dreamer.
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Post by Neptz on Jul 2, 2016 8:36:54 GMT
my only issue with doom is i am not good at dealing with restrictions on myself aswell as me making sacrifices, i cling to everything. i never give up my parts of me. plus i was depressed when i wrote that and the good emotions i have didnt show how good i can be, it mostly showed my bad sides in it, i hide behind masks. i over exaggerate my bad traits. i am a bleeding heart and can be easily hurt emotionally. i believe everyone can change and can be good. i only hurt and use people to survive in the far more toxic environment i live in. in normal and calm environments i am benign, and sometimes beneficial. i get very anxious and depressed. but when happy and calm i am a dreamer. I am in a state of actual depression. No joke, I am actually depressed, and have been for about a year now. Trust me, you do not become 'depressed' for like a day or so, you're just anxious, sad and not feeling well. I agree with some parts here. I over exaggerate my bad parts, yes. I do not believe in myself a whole lot. I can be easily hurt emotionally, but do not like to show it. I do not hide behind masks with the exception of REAL LIFE. I am a pessimist, but mostly when it comes to myself, what people think of me and what I do, and interactions with me. I am sometimes happy? Somewhat? I am always in a state of "not okay" and sometimes I enter a state of "okay" when things are calm aand slightly above average. I only become anxious when I am anticipating something (anticipatory anxiety). I hate rules soo much, but I follow them and I am quick to change if I am being... undesirable. I might sometimes make sacrifices, but not too often. I am lonely, but I do not consider myself a loner. I hate being lonely and wish I had more friends (which is why I don't call myself a loner) and I often accidentally push away people because I cannot take people's feelings and reasoning into consideration. I am a sucker for attention. That's pretty much it.
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Post by Kinkykluts on Jul 2, 2016 8:44:45 GMT
No like i understand that about depression. I have bpd and swing around alot.
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Post by manlystarman on Jul 4, 2016 13:42:34 GMT
I actually think it is entirely plausible for Mindfang to be a Sylph of Light! The way I view Classpect, is you can define them down to what the base of them are. But to me, there can be MANY different versions of a person with the same Classpect. Like their own path and potential is upon their own experiences. The fandom sometimes likes to give those who have Classpects shared with others in canon. Like if I were a Knight of Time, there are people who say take that as, oh, so are you saying you are Dave or something? Not at all. Cuz there are only 144 possible Classpects (or 168 if you count the Master Classes) and it just doesn't make sense to me that would translate to only being that number of individual personalities and people in the world. And it obviously isn't that way.
I guess my point is, there can be an infinite amount of any possible Classpect interpretation depending on the person. But this is just how I view and explain it.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 4, 2016 22:17:09 GMT
I actually think it is entirely plausible for Mindfang to be a Sylph of Light! The way I view Classpect, is you can define them down to what the base of them are. But to me, there can be MANY different versions of a person with the same Classpect. Like their own path and potential is upon their own experiences. The fandom sometimes likes to give those who have Classpects shared with others in canon. Like if I were a Knight of Time, there are people who say take that as, oh, so are you saying you are Dave or something? Not at all. Cuz there are only 144 possible Classpects (or 168 if you count the Master Classes) and it just doesn't make sense to me that would translate to only being that number of individual personalities and people in the world. And it obviously isn't that way. I guess my point is, there can be an infinite amount of any possible Classpect interpretation depending on the person. But this is just how I view and explain it. I think we all agree that there is a large amount of variety and flexibility within one specific title. But despite that, a Title still has to fit within a certain domain in order for the Title to have meaning. It's similar to how there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but despite the infinite amount of them, they all still fall within a short range of one another. So while there may be an infinite number of ways Mindfang can be/act to be a Sylph of Light, that doesn't mean she can be absolutely anything, there must still be some certain trait(s) that point to this specific title.
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Post by manlystarman on Jul 5, 2016 13:13:01 GMT
I actually think it is entirely plausible for Mindfang to be a Sylph of Light! The way I view Classpect, is you can define them down to what the base of them are. But to me, there can be MANY different versions of a person with the same Classpect. Like their own path and potential is upon their own experiences. The fandom sometimes likes to give those who have Classpects shared with others in canon. Like if I were a Knight of Time, there are people who say take that as, oh, so are you saying you are Dave or something? Not at all. Cuz there are only 144 possible Classpects (or 168 if you count the Master Classes) and it just doesn't make sense to me that would translate to only being that number of individual personalities and people in the world. And it obviously isn't that way. I guess my point is, there can be an infinite amount of any possible Classpect interpretation depending on the person. But this is just how I view and explain it. I think we all agree that there is a large amount of variety and flexibility within one specific title. But despite that, a Title still has to fit within a certain domain in order for the Title to have meaning. It's similar to how there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, but despite the infinite amount of them, they all still fall within a short range of one another. So while there may be an infinite number of ways Mindfang can be/act to be a Sylph of Light, that doesn't mean she can be absolutely anything, there must still be some certain trait(s) that point to this specific title. I agree with that. Sorry, I have a bit of trouble getting across what I'm saying. I think the issue is we just don't see them in the right scenario. Even if Aranea and Mindfang are the same person, despite the fact only Aranea actually played the game, she also grew up in a much different place and had many different experiences in her life. But just the way I view Classpect, I still think she'd be a Sylph of Light. Either if you side more on the idea your Title is meant to challenge you or be best suited Role for you (I use a mix of both, namely it being a sort of this is what you can become at your best and the challenge coming from working your way up like with anything to realize your Role) I see no reason to say otherwise that Mindfang would be different just because SHE grew up on Alternia. For example, just for my views on what a Sylph of Light is, I think no one would argue with the fact that notion of Mindfang being a Light player. Given her informative and self-importance nature. Just like how Aranea elaborated on the Pre-Scratch trolls at the end of the Meenahbound flashes, Mindfang did something similar in her journal. She shed light on many and almost all of the various Ancestors. Allowing us to view and understand them. Mindfang also had a certain knowledge on a lot of things, namely pertaining to herself or what she deemed as useful or important. Now, where she stems from Aranea there is from Aranea's plight to gather as much information as she could for the benefit of her team. Where Mindfang used what she had to her abilities for herself. Which she collected a fine deal of from one of Scratch's "seeds". But instead of using for another's benefit or "healing" she would shift through and anything that piqued her fancy she used for herself. Since I see the Sylph of being someone who heals (Aspect) or heals THROUGH (Aspect). So I think there are certainly common ground you can make between them, just that let's say if Mindfang were to have actually played the game, she'd have acted and used her powers differently. I hope I was able to explain my opinion better in this post.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 5, 2016 21:03:08 GMT
Now, where she stems from Aranea there is from Aranea's plight to gather as much information as she could for the benefit of her team. Where Mindfang used what she had to her abilities for herself. Which she collected a fine deal of from one of Scratch's "seeds". But instead of using for another's benefit or "healing" she would shift through and anything that piqued her fancy she used for herself. Since I see the Sylph of being someone who heals (Aspect) or heals THROUGH (Aspect). So I think there are certainly common ground you can make between them, just that let's say if Mindfang were to have actually played the game, she'd have acted and used her powers differently. I hope I was able to explain my opinion better in this post. This isn't necessarilly a difference if Sylph is an active class and we see active classes as being focused on the individuals who wield them and not the group at large. I don't necessarily want to argue about whether Sylph is active or not, but in the case that it was, that would make Mindfang and Aranea (and the way they used their abilities) not all that different. We did see Aranea use her powers for some pretty selfish reasons after all, even if they were technically 'helping' Jake and not her.
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Post by manlystarman on Jul 5, 2016 21:15:39 GMT
Now, where she stems from Aranea there is from Aranea's plight to gather as much information as she could for the benefit of her team. Where Mindfang used what she had to her abilities for herself. Which she collected a fine deal of from one of Scratch's "seeds". But instead of using for another's benefit or "healing" she would shift through and anything that piqued her fancy she used for herself. Since I see the Sylph of being someone who heals (Aspect) or heals THROUGH (Aspect). So I think there are certainly common ground you can make between them, just that let's say if Mindfang were to have actually played the game, she'd have acted and used her powers differently. I hope I was able to explain my opinion better in this post. This isn't necessarilly a difference if Sylph is an active class and we see active classes as being focused on the individuals who wield them and not the group at large. I don't necessarily want to argue about whether Sylph is active or not, but in the case that it was, that would make Mindfang and Aranea (and the way they used their abilities) not all that different. We did see Aranea use her powers for some pretty selfish reasons after all, even if they were technically 'helping' Jake and not her. I didn't say anything about Sylph being Active or Passive. And even still, being a Passive Class doesn't mean you can't do anything for yourself. Like as a small example Eridan as a Prince of Hope. He's what I would categorize as a "bad" Prince of Hope. Whereas you can have another Prince of Hope who is a better Prince int he style of Dirk and realizing these things about him and using his powers for the benefit of others. Note how I said benefit of others. Since the other way around that just because you're Active doesn't mean you can't do anything for anyone else. I suppose in the Mindfang example, she still is and has the abilities of a Sylph of Light, but instead of what Aranea would do, she'd potentially give the farce of her intentions. And could easily use that to manipulate others in HER favor. It just depends on the individual player.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 5, 2016 21:19:27 GMT
This isn't necessarilly a difference if Sylph is an active class and we see active classes as being focused on the individuals who wield them and not the group at large. I don't necessarily want to argue about whether Sylph is active or not, but in the case that it was, that would make Mindfang and Aranea (and the way they used their abilities) not all that different. We did see Aranea use her powers for some pretty selfish reasons after all, even if they were technically 'helping' Jake and not her. I didn't say anything about Sylph being Active or Passive. And even still, being a Passive Class doesn't mean you can't do anything for yourself. Like as a small example Eridan as a Prince of Hope. He's what I would categorize as a "bad" Prince of Hope. Whereas you can have another Prince of Hope who is a better Prince int he style of Dirk and realizing these things about him and using his powers for the benefit of others. Note how I said benefit of others. Since the other way around that just because you're Active doesn't mean you can't do anything for anyone else. I suppose in the Mindfang example, she still is and has the abilities of a Sylph of Light, but instead of what Aranea would do, she'd potentially give the farce of her intentions. And could easily use that to manipulate others in HER favor. It just depends on the individual player. But my point is that what Mindfang does and what Aranea would do isn't all that different from what we've seen of Aranea and how she used her powers. Sure Mindfang does some hideous things, but in terms of her classpect it's possible she was acting exactly how a Sylph of Light is supposed to act, albeit to an extreme degree.
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Post by vaiyt on Jul 6, 2016 5:28:53 GMT
I liked the "Apply Classpects to characters in other works" thread. It was pointless but really fun. I will totally remake it if anyone will actually plan to post in it. I know I would.
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Post by ashercrane on Jul 6, 2016 17:26:25 GMT
I will totally remake it if anyone will actually plan to post in it. I know I would. It shall be done.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Jul 8, 2016 21:35:13 GMT
But my point is that what Mindfang does and what Aranea would do isn't all that different from what we've seen of Aranea and how she used her powers. Sure Mindfang does some hideous things, but in terms of her classpect it's possible she was acting exactly how a Sylph of Light is supposed to act, albeit to an extreme degree. Is that actually the case? Let's consider the handful of places where Aranea describes, references, or employs her abilities. She explicitly calls herself a healer several times, says she has an unprecedented ability to heal because of her age and experience, and actually does heal pre-retcon Terezi's eyesight, "giving back Terezi's light" as it were.* Healing, in and of itself, is neither active nor passive--I've spent many words discussing the difference between active healing and passive healing, between causing health to improve and allowing health to improve--so this alone does not tell us much. It does, however, present a rather different take than Mindfang: other than Mindfang's luck, which is a predictable consequence of being associated with the aspect of Luck and Fortune, the only real 'powers' she uses are to take the will of others, which is something strongly associated with Vriska and anti-associated with Aranea before she started working with Vriska. There is more to it, though. In addition to the above stuff, we have Aranea's long dream-bubble conversation with Terezi, wherein she acts like a psychiatrist. Psychiatry is among the disciplines I would consider passive healing, because a psychotherapist cannot make your mental illness go away; a psychiatrist acts as a facilitator of healing, empowering and enabling the patient to solve their own problems and increase their own mental health. This is not to say that psychiatry is useless--far from it. Many people, even people I have personally known, have benefitted enormously from attending therapy--but the healing was fundamentally an action the patient had to take, however encouraged or assisted by others it might be. Aranea talks about how healing can be accelerated by honesty, but can't be forced, that there isn't a simple, cut-and-dried answer. And that that's what she did as a healer: helped people see things. That is fundamentally a passive construction: she isn't the actor, she is the facilitator of another's actions (seeing). In fact, in all but ONE time that Aranea has spoken of the effect of her abilities--not what she is, but how she does things--she uses passive-voice constructions. "Certain outcomes will 8e prone to 8r8king in my favor." She "helped people see things." "And if luck should conspire to make it a draw? :: " Each and every time, she isn't the actor--someone else, or Light itself, is the "actor" and she is an auxiliary, a facilitator. But as I said...there is one exception. That exception is when she talks about her plan to personally "heal" the relevance of the timeline that excludes Lord English, and become the eternal caretaker of all subsequent universes. Hell, even that exception is only half of one--the "outcomes will 8e prone..." bit comes from the start of that section, so even there she's relying on Light "acting" on her behalf ("...as though by the will of the aspect"). Homestuck passive vs. active is deeply related to grammatical passive vs. active: "I kill people" vs. "People are killed by me." "I destroy things with Light," vs. "Things are destroyed by Light because of me." The two probably aren't perfectly synonymous (Homestuck +/- is a slippery thing), but they have a substantial and significant degree of overlap. Ignoring a character's repeated passive-voice descriptions of themselves and their abilities seems very unwise, unless we have a very solid reason to dismiss that. I fundamentally don't see Aranea's "I'm tired of being unimportant!" shenanigans--what I would call an aberration, given her own statements about herself in relation to others and others' statements about her in relation to them--as a "very solid reason" to doubt this clear pattern. We shouldn't dismiss her entire life prior to those 15-20 minutes as the fluke, treating those few minutes as the real thing. Instead, I think we should look at it in precisely the same way people looked at John's bizarre temper-tantrum on the meteor: bottled-up emotions surging out in a wave of foolish behavior. Indeed, I think we should view it the same as we view (for example) Dave's repeated refusal to act as Knight of Time; it's not that Knight is a passive class and he's finally "come home," it's that he's broken up inside, full of doubt, which is preventing him from acting on his intuition and being the things he "needs" to be (for a given definition of "needs"). Certainly, it confuses me that so many dismiss Dave's clear pre-retcon passivity as merely a fluke while seeming to take precisely the reverse stance on Aranea. When active characters stumble and fall, it's almost always into inaction, especially if caused by intense doubt: it happened to Dave, Karkat, Dirk, Eridan, and arguably Sollux and Feferi. When passive characters stumble and fall, it's almost always into rash action, especially if caused by repressed feelings: it happened to John, Rose, Nepeta, Jake (lots and lots of times), Tavros, and arguably Terezi. What was Aranea's plan, and why did she do it? It was a huge risk, a major and personal undertaking for her alone--and by her own admission, she did it because she was sick and tired of being walked on, because she wanted to be Important and everyone kept pushing her into the shadows. *This is quite a common metaphor for gain or loss of sight. In the Wheel of Time books, Mat Cauthon has to "give up half the light of the world in order to save the world"--which he later realizes means he must give up one of his eyes in a bargain to save a critical person's life.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 8, 2016 23:14:36 GMT
When active characters stumble and fall, it's almost always into inaction, especially if caused by intense doubt: it happened to Dave, Karkat, Dirk, Eridan, and arguably Sollux and Feferi. I'm not sure that Dirk and Eridan's problems were based on inaction. Their problem was more to do with getting carried away with their function, failing to consider if it was appropriate or 'right'. But other than that, I agree with all of this. This combined with Legendary's point about Mindfang's main role in the story not being her piracy, but actually as the inspiration to Vriska and wealth of exposition to her and us about the Ancestors all very strongly points to a Passive Sylph whose function lies somewhere in the neighborhood of Healing, Nurturing, Growing etc.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Jul 9, 2016 5:17:41 GMT
When active characters stumble and fall, it's almost always into inaction, especially if caused by intense doubt: it happened to Dave, Karkat, Dirk, Eridan, and arguably Sollux and Feferi. I'm not sure that Dirk and Eridan's problems were based on inaction. Their problem was more to do with getting carried away with their function, failing to consider if it was appropriate or 'right'. But other than that, I agree with all of this. This combined with Legendary's point about Mindfang's main role in the story not being her piracy, but actually as the inspiration to Vriska and wealth of exposition to her and us about the Ancestors all very strongly points to a Passive Sylph whose function lies somewhere in the neighborhood of Healing, Nurturing, Growing etc. I suppose, for Dirk, it was sort of a matter of having enforced inactivity that caused problems. But I stand by my statement overall, and with Eridan. What did Eridan accomplish, during all the weeks of wining and complaining? Nothing. He constantly looked for other people to solve his problems, to act the part he wanted them to act. Even before the game, his quest against the land-dwellers was self-sabotaging. And in it, his land was unfit for exploration, and he kept himself apart from essentially everyone else, particularly during his little crusade against the "angels." But he contributed to the group's overall success against the Black King, a rare moment where he actually got to ACT as he saw fit (more or less). And yeah, I definitely see Mindfang as being supportive--just in very "narrative" way rather than in her "practice" if that makes sense. If we were able to hear the details of her story, rather than just the highlights? We'd probably find plenty that was HS active. But her role and function in the story of Homestuck is facilitative--acting as a beacon, a guidepost for Vriska, filling Vriska with ideas and passion and direction, "purpose" for lack of a better term. Meaning. Yet another thing often associated with Light. As Hussie said, "classes suggest a little more about a hero’s path and role in the greater quest than what their battle capabilities are." Mindfang was a combat badass and a pirate queen, but her role in the greater quest was "inspirational mentor"--and such inspirational teaching is pretty clearly passive.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 10, 2016 6:40:03 GMT
But my point is that what Mindfang does and what Aranea would do isn't all that different from what we've seen of Aranea and how she used her powers. Sure Mindfang does some hideous things, but in terms of her classpect it's possible she was acting exactly how a Sylph of Light is supposed to act, albeit to an extreme degree. -snip- My main point was I don't think Aranea and Mindfang are that dissimilar at all, which is something that can be argued even putting Active/Passive talk aside.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Jul 11, 2016 12:12:24 GMT
My main point was I don't think Aranea and Mindfang are that dissimilar at all, which is something that can be argued even putting Active/Passive talk aside. Well, I disagree with that point as well. Not meaning to be contrary--I really do see some pretty significant differences between the two characters. Meenah was Aranea's best friend, and she didn't think Aranea had it in her to be unscrupulous. To the point that it nearly gave her tears of joy at watching Aranea change, like a parent watching their child learn to play violin. We also get an implication, albeit a strong one, that Aranea is highly non-confrontational; she could have instigated a meeting with someone from B2 or A1/A2, but instead she waited for them to come to her. Quite a bit different from the boldness of Mindfang, whose bravado was both what made her a pirate queen, and what lost her all she had gained. There's also the "respecting boundaries" stuff, which Aranea initially did...until she started mind-melding with Vriska and picking up her bad habits! And we are quite explicitly told that Mindfang never had that--her mental and physical rape of the Dolorosa being all the demonstration we need. Long story short, Aranea seems far too much "bookish dweeb" than "badass pirate queen." She's a little shy, doesn't know how to tell a story, but loves telling stories anyway, and is too tentative and standoffish. Mindfang took what she wanted--and wound the will of others around her little finger, making them dance like puppets. Aranea can barely even tell people what she wants, let alone take it, up until the point that her frustration explodes into the idiotic, ill-conceived plan that created Game Over. Prior to her "freakout," I appreciated, even to a certain extent identified with Aranea. I talk too much. I tell stories and don't give them good, punchy endings. I obsess over details for bloody ever, long after everyone else has lost interest. I'm an easy target for jokes at my expense. But I don't respond to these things by flipping everyone else the bird and launching off on my own plan that relies purely on me being too awesome for anyone else to handle.
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Post by ashercrane on Jul 11, 2016 12:42:21 GMT
Another argument for Mindfang being a Sylph which works for those who think it's a creation class, and... I guess one definition of "fix", but not really of heal, Mindfang allowed her future to be dictated by what she saw int he cue ball. Like, at the end of her journal she said "The sense of infalli8ility his oracle 8rought me was superficial, and in hindsight weakened my readiness. Knowing my f8 so far in advance, I took Redglare's threat lightly. The gr8est mistake I have ever made was asking the or8 when I would die." So her Sylph of Lightness was in the fact that she let the cue ball create, or fix, or whatever you think a Sylph's deal is (as long as you don't think it's heal specifically, because that specific word does not work.). Her whole fortune was guided by the thing, from stealing other's treasure, to seeing who the highbloods would send after her, to knowing by whom she would die. She only stops allowing it to make her fortune when she realizes she had been allowing it to set her future. Which, amusingly, as he fleet was destroyed and she was going on to affect some rebellion, may be where she stopped acting as much like a thief as well.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 12, 2016 4:38:52 GMT
My main point was I don't think Aranea and Mindfang are that dissimilar at all, which is something that can be argued even putting Active/Passive talk aside. Well, I disagree with that point as well. Not meaning to be contrary--I really do see some pretty significant differences between the two characters. Meenah was Aranea's best friend, and she didn't think Aranea had it in her to be unscrupulous. To the point that it nearly gave her tears of joy at watching Aranea change, like a parent watching their child learn to play violin. We also get an implication, albeit a strong one, that Aranea is highly non-confrontational; she could have instigated a meeting with someone from B2 or A1/A2, but instead she waited for them to come to her. Quite a bit different from the boldness of Mindfang, whose bravado was both what made her a pirate queen, and what lost her all she had gained. There's also the "respecting boundaries" stuff, which Aranea initially did...until she started mind-melding with Vriska and picking up her bad habits! And we are quite explicitly told that Mindfang never had that--her mental and physical rape of the Dolorosa being all the demonstration we need. We met Mindfang after she'd been a grown-up for sweeps. Aranea was still a kid, and for all we know, could've grown up into a very similar woman. And it should go without saying that Aranea grew up on a completely different world than her Alternian counterpart; a world which would discourage that kind of behavior. But that didn't stop Aranea from actually doing stuff like that when push came to shove. It's an exploration of nature vs. nurture. Mindfang and Aranea's nurture was completely different, but that only served to highlight that their natures were very similar.Actually, if you want proof of the whole 'ultimate self' concept, that works pretty well.Long story short, Aranea seems far too much "bookish dweeb" than "badass pirate queen." She's a little shy, doesn't know how to tell a story, but loves telling stories anyway, and is too tentative and standoffish. Mindfang took what she wanted--and wound the will of others around her little finger, making them dance like puppets. Aranea can barely even tell people what she wants, let alone take it, up until the point that her frustration explodes into the idiotic, ill-conceived plan that created Game Over. Prior to her "freakout," I appreciated, even to a certain extent identified with Aranea. I talk too much. I tell stories and don't give them good, punchy endings. I obsess over details for bloody ever, long after everyone else has lost interest. I'm an easy target for jokes at my expense. But I don't respond to these things by flipping everyone else the bird and launching off on my own plan that relies purely on me being too awesome for anyone else to handle. Those are rather shallow differences though. Mindfang and Aranea both have an ego that pushed them to be their world's equivalent of an exposition fairy. Mindfang wrote her journal and, like Aranea, informs another character (and the audience) about the Alpha trolls, albeit with the exception of the Sufferer's group. And Aranea is shown to be as unscrupulous and her successor in procuring what she desired. It might even be possible that Mindfang had a 'good' reason for some of her exploits, as she could've been a part of the Summoners rebellion, which would fit as a parallel to Aranea killing everyone to try to save the time line from Lord English's birth. In essence both of them doing horrible things to procure 'good' outcomes but really for the sake of self-aggrandizement anyway. As I said, their superficial differences can be chalked up both to one of them never growing up and to their different childhoods, but if they were really that different, Aranea wouldn't have been capable of committing the mayhem she did before and during Game Over, no matter how much of a bad influence Vriska was.
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