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Post by TrickleJest on May 23, 2017 8:31:48 GMT
you should stop being spoiled and grow up I get where you're coming from but what you posted didn't count as an opinion/regular post, this thread is for Unpopular Opinions not for arguing on them. Other than that, yeah, I was being angry and hypocritical, let's just stop.
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Post by sigh on May 23, 2017 19:33:29 GMT
The problem is that pretty much all of the relationships later on suffer from what I like to call a "gay-heel-turn", aka a situation where someone seemed like they were going to be straight then out of nowhere we're slammed in the face with gayness like Dave being smothered in Smuppets. One brought up the best example IMO, that being Roxy, as the situation with her and John turning into the situation with her and Calliope not only came out of nowhere but simultaneously ruined the BFF relationship I loved between the two girls and was a big catalyst in making John all alone.
(Also I find the relationship with Calliope just plain weird considering how we know what the mating cycle/mentality of her species is like and it's 100% wholly incompatible with humans unless you cheat with ectobiology, and even then it's dubious at best.)
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Post by ashercrane on May 23, 2017 20:01:46 GMT
I liked the dancestors, and felt they contributed nicely to understanding classpects better.
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Post by princessfeffie on May 23, 2017 22:28:37 GMT
The One Guy cookiefonster u might guess im gonna disagree there! roxycallie was very, very well built up and a central piece of both of their character arcs, and has some wonderful and imo probably very deliberate parallels to rose and kanaya's relationship too! let's look at roxy first, n since you're using her crush on dirk as evidence for her being exclusively straight, her thoughts on it on her quest bed are particularly relevant here: TG: ok see this is just another embarrassing thing from my past
TG: when i was more out of control
TG: with dirk i was just
TG: waaay too aggressive
TG: i hassled him all the time
TG: pretty much every day just like he said
TG: about
TG: me and him
TG: like
TG: GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!
TG: U KNO LAST MALE & FEMALE ON EARTH OOH HES A HUNK! IS DREAMZ COME TRU TIME 4 REPOPULATE!!! this crush clearly wasn't healthy for her, n realizing that, like many of the realizations the alphas make finally talking stuff out on their quest beds, is super important to her growth! living alone, roxy had a fascination with old earth artifacts n culture bc it helped her feel closer to her mother n what she lost - this is even reflected in her handle, tipsyGnostalgic. some of this is sweet n helpful to her, like old video games and tech, but some of it, like her dependence on the alcohol her mother left behind, very much is not! one not-so-healthy item of old earth culture she takes to heart is her early feelings of loneliness and inadequacy and how much she centers them around the idea of having a boyfriend specifically: which, with the way she made dirk uncomfortable pursuing him when he wasn’t interested, is clearly shown as not being a healthy way to seek a relationship! the specific idea that she crushed on him because they’re the ‘last male and female on earth’ supports this reading too, with her feelings more relating to what she thinks she Should feel by cliche in their situation, not what her actual feelings and needs are. ROXY: wait wats goin on
ROXY: are we all talkin about how hot jane is???
DAVE: no!
DAVE: maybe
ROXY: cuz janey is a straightup sexual fox riding a red hot nuclear bombshell
ROXY: right toward the yowza plaza in the heart of babe city, assachusetts, U S A
ROXY: the last A just stands for more ass roxy deserves a happy relationship on her own terms, not just because she feels she has to have one to be complete in a heteronormative society, and that’s a big part of the personal growth it takes her to reach godtier - godtier itself being a metaphor for gnosis or the gaining of spiritual wisdom to escape a confining reality and personal growth after all! she’s later shown flirting happily with both boys and girls - john and jane specifically - in a way that’s clearly a whole lot healthier than her previous fixation on dirk. roxy is pretty much intended to be read as bi and as having struggled with that and grown because of it, and there’s quite an argument for her being polyamorous too! onto callie! i kno a few ppl in this thread have said she doesn’t have much of an arc or growth, n i’d definitely have to disagree w that too! the key concept to understand callie’s character arc with is biological determinism: the idea that someone has to be a certain way because of species, blood colour, gender, etc - and how homestuck specifically says that’s wrong! this is echoed in other character’s arcs, like karkat dealing with his mutation and where it places him in alternian society too, so how callie struggles with who she is as a cherub - and how her relationship with roxy specifically helps her overcome it - is a reflection of some pretty central themes of homestuck! UU: trolls are a remarkable and fascinating race.
UU: hUmans are too, please don't get me wrong!
UU: bUt i am oUt and oUt smitten with trolls and their history and ways.
UU: they have sUch amazing, coloUrfUl social dynamics that soUnd like so mUch fUn to be a part of.
UU: and they are so beaUtifUl.
UU: i wish i coUld be that pretty.
UU: UnfortUnately, i am not very attractive at all.
UU: sad to say, no one woUld kiss the corpse i will leave behind.
UU: even if there were someone aroUnd to revive me, i doUbt they woUld be inclined to bother.
UU: for, er... several reasons, actUally.
UU: bUt really, it was always for the best that i cannot have fUlly flUshed feelings.
UU: no one coUld ever love me. callie starts out very bound by rules and restrictions, both in the sense of the cherub superstitions she follows, and her beliefs about herself due to being a cherub too - that she’s ugly and incapable of love, and nobody could love anyone like her anyway. it’s clear this is wrong though, and the progression of her character involves breaking free of this - learning to, as her alt self told her, live, and be herself without need for the arbitrary restrictions placed on her. and the person who helps her come to these conclusions most? UU: yes, as a matter of fact.
UU: that is actUally the reason i am contacting yoU.
UU: it is one rUle i have decided to break.
TG: oh fuck!
TG: what is it!!!!!!!
UU: my name is calliope.
TG:
TG: .....
TG: ilike it roxy’s been there with her every step of the way as she starts to leave these beliefs behind, even being the first person she reveals her name to, which is incredibly symbolic of callie’s first steps away from being trapped. they’re both so very supportive of each other in a way they don’t get from anyone else - roxy encouraging callie without forcing her into anything at every turn, and scenes like roxy seeing callie’s fanart of her emphasising just how much callie and her love means to roxy when she’s feeling lost and alone! whether or not the start of their relationship is romantic, they’re clearly intimate and important to each other, and this comes to a head when callie’s in danger- TG: ok
TG: you are right
TG: la siiiiiigh
TG: im worried 4 you
TG: but optimistic
TG: i will call ur name like a million times
TG: and shout it in 2 the void every chance i get
TG: til u come back
and callie and roxy become each other’s motivations to keep going - callie staying hidden in the dark of the furthest ring to wait for roxy, and roxy eventually overcoming her own entrapment in the game over timeline to get the ring of life to calliope and save all her friends - both of them notably escaping situations engineered to caliborn/LE’s will by their love for each other. from this scenario come some of the most meaningful and intimate romantic scenes in homestuck, all relying on the specific symbolism of void. there's four specific later scenes i wanna talk abt here that set roxycallie up as a definitively romantic relationship, as well as the way they deliberately parallel rose and kanaya, so ill cut this post off for now n get to writing abt those!
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on May 24, 2017 1:34:47 GMT
I think your arguments would make more sense if you actually gave examples of Calliope overcoming cherub customs. If you think accepting that she has friends who care about her counts as that, she very clearly wanted the alpha kids to be her friends from the start so that doesn't mean much. Bonus points if you cite examples of her overcoming customs that aren't the maybe-romantic Snapchat scenes that came out of nowhere.
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Post by princessfeffie on May 24, 2017 1:36:04 GMT
well, her whole 'live' thing with alt callie is pretty much entirely that? not to even mention the explicit canonicity of her friendships with humans, and specifically looking up to roxy, being the reason she developed the way she did and didn't become altcallie! a main facet of the thing i'm about to write relates to her log on the lilypad with roxy, specifically roxy telling her it's okay that she didn't do that, and she can still be who she is - roxy specifically empowering callie with void-related concepts, that not being the hyper-relevant self sacrifice or any great destiny and just Living is okay!
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Post by obsidalicious on May 24, 2017 3:58:17 GMT
Where's the romance though? You've shown how Roxy and Calliope good friends, but then you seem to have just jumped straight to romance without evidence. I also don't think Roxy complimenting Jane is an indication that she's suddenly accepted being a bisexual. If anything, it reads to me like Roxy is trying to wingman for her, knowing that Jane's struggling in the romance department.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on May 24, 2017 11:25:40 GMT
Alright, we want unpopular opinions? I have Homestuck HERESY right here. Karkat is the only troll I feel any kind of genuine affection for. All the others are horrible, except probably Kanaya, who's mostly just boring until she becomes a hip piece to Rose. Vriska is also an outright evil person and the fact that she was abused by her mother does NOT excuse her from being an abusive, manipulative bitch. I'll go hide in my bomb shelter, now. I actually got to agree with that. I personally think in the end all the trolls apart from Karkat ending up being rather badly written after act 5, so I ended up only caring for Karkat (and Kanaya a little bit). I still love Terezi and Vriska, but they got handled terribly after act 5 to the point I didn't even wanted to care. :\
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Post by mementovivere on May 24, 2017 14:05:20 GMT
Alright y'all, a liiiittle bit of debating and questioning each others' opinions is fine, but the debates over how detrimental gay characters are or the merits of Calliope/Roxy are getting a bit drawn out at this point. If you'd like to continue the conversation, there are more shipping-oriented threads that are better for it, including whole quarantine threads for Roxy's ships. Also just in general, tread lightly with stuff that veers close to violating the "no prejudicial attitudes" rule, even in the unpopular opinions thread.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on May 24, 2017 15:29:21 GMT
What's wrong with this discussion? We're all debating in a very civil manner, making sure to avoid stepping on toes about the subjects we feel for. I haven't noticed any offensive prejudice, and I don't think anyone in here is offended. I've been enjoying the discussion, don't put a filter on it because you disagree.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on May 24, 2017 17:05:49 GMT
Edit: I wrote all this before reading mementovivere's post. I ultimately agree with staircaseofkneecaps, but I'll still spoiler it in case people don't want to see it: let's look at roxy first, n since you're using her crush on dirk as evidence for her being exclusively straight, her thoughts on it on her quest bed are particularly relevant here: Hey now, don't take what I said out of context. Her crush on Dirk is meant to be combined with her also crushing on Jake, but not Jane. On its own, it does not tell us anything about her being straight (though it does tell us she's not asexual or exclusively gay), but when you look at the overall facts of her crushing on both males she knows, but not the female, it does give the implication that she's straight, or at least leans straight. I should also mention that how healthy her crushes were is irrelevant in this; they still have to conform to her alignment. Do you have examples of that? Granted, its been a while since I read the comic, but I don't recall her ever flirting with Jane. Regarding Calliope, I do see her growing from having a good friendship with Roxy, but aside from her viewing herself as a monster (something an truly isolated Cherub wouldn't do anyway), I don't see her really struggling with Cherub customs. Granted, the part about he being incapable of flushed feelings is a Cherubic restriction, but I see no evidence of her "overcoming" this until randomly she's in a relationship with Roxy. And for that matter is it really something she needs to overcome? It's not like Humans have any need for caliginous relationships (and John developing caliginous feelings for Terezi is another ending annoyance, but I'm not gonna get into that). Overall, though, I think the most major thing is that you mention how a relationship between them works thematically, but never mention anything about how a relationship between them would work realistically. In Rose and Kanaya's relationship (the one ending gay relationship that did work, though you could argue it stagnated after they hooked up), there was shown to be attraction between them and romantic chemistry even before they hooked up, but as mentioned before, Roxy and Calliope were just shown to be BFFs without any romantic feelings developing from such.
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Post by mementovivere on May 24, 2017 17:27:16 GMT
What's wrong with this discussion? We're all debating in a very civil manner, making sure to avoid stepping on toes about the subjects we feel for. I haven't noticed any offensive prejudice, and I don't think anyone in here is offended. I've been enjoying the discussion, don't put a filter on it because you disagree. I'm just reiterating what I said on the very first page of this thread: Hmmmm. I'm thinking that maybe this shouldn't be a thread to DEBATE each other's opinions, since the inherent controversy of "unpopular opinions" would otherwise result in this thread mostly being flooded with arguments before too long. Feel free to debate something someone said in a PM though, or relocate the conversation to one of the main MSPA discussion threads! It's not my intent to silence the discussion, and a certain degree of it in this thread is to be expected... I'm just saying that once a discussion starts going on for more than a few posts, it may be a better idea to move it to a thread that's more meant for extended discussion than this one is. Some posters have expressed that they like the forums having some semblance of structure, and that they like this thread not being full of negativity and arguing. But if multiple people want to make this more of a debate thread then I suppose that can change if you want, it's really up to y'all. As for "putting a filter on it", I'm not preventing anyone from having this discussion outside of what the rules specify, and I haven't even put warnings on posts or anything like that. By "tread lightly" I'm just saying to continue to "avoid stepping on toes" as you said... it's not a chastisement of rule-breaking, it's just a friendly reminder to be conscious of how your words and attitudes can affect other posters and continue to keep it respectful and within the bounds of the rules, especially when talking about something that's kind of delicate and close to home for a lot of posters. I would say the same thing if the debate was something more like "is the abundance of straight characters in Homestuck detrimental to the quality of the work as a whole?"
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 24, 2017 21:11:05 GMT
I would say, arguably, that Kanaya, the Striders, and Roxy ended up with something sort of resembling a conclusive arc. I can't see it with anyone else.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on May 25, 2017 2:05:35 GMT
What's wrong with this discussion? We're all debating in a very civil manner, making sure to avoid stepping on toes about the subjects we feel for. I haven't noticed any offensive prejudice, and I don't think anyone in here is offended. I've been enjoying the discussion, don't put a filter on it because you disagree. I'm just reiterating what I said on the very first page of this thread: Hmmmm. I'm thinking that maybe this shouldn't be a thread to DEBATE each other's opinions, since the inherent controversy of "unpopular opinions" would otherwise result in this thread mostly being flooded with arguments before too long. Feel free to debate something someone said in a PM though, or relocate the conversation to one of the main MSPA discussion threads! It's not my intent to silence the discussion, and a certain degree of it in this thread is to be expected... I'm just saying that once a discussion starts going on for more than a few posts, it may be a better idea to move it to a thread that's more meant for extended discussion than this one is. Some posters have expressed that they like the forums having some semblance of structure, and that they like this thread not being full of negativity and arguing. But if multiple people want to make this more of a debate thread then I suppose that can change if you want, it's really up to y'all. As for "putting a filter on it", I'm not preventing anyone from having this discussion outside of what the rules specify, and I haven't even put warnings on posts or anything like that. By "tread lightly" I'm just saying to continue to "avoid stepping on toes" as you said... it's not a chastisement of rule-breaking, it's just a friendly reminder to be conscious of how your words and attitudes can affect other posters and continue to keep it respectful and within the bounds of the rules, especially when talking about something that's kind of delicate and close to home for a lot of posters. I would say the same thing if the debate was something more like "is the abundance of straight characters in Homestuck detrimental to the quality of the work as a whole?" Alright if you've been stating it since the beginning that's fair, I haven't read the early pages since they first went up. But no one's been complaining yet, and so I think that's a good indicator the thread hasn't starting to go in circles. It's when a debate is offensive or terribly beaten into the ground that people start to get sick of it, but you're right this thread wasn't made fir debates. I say let the people do what they please until they start complaining. That seems to work fine.
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Post by spadesnoir1234 on Aug 9, 2017 11:39:31 GMT
(Not related to the above)
I think the problem with some of thes unpopular opinions threads is that what constitutes an "unpopular opinion" can actually be kind of subjective, and it depends on what part of the fandom you interact with. For example, if you only talk to people who hate a ship, you get the feeling that said ship is hated by a lot of people... but maybe in another website folks are okay with it.
I used to see this all the time when I frequented a subreddit about this stuff: sometimes two different people would submit completely opposite "unpopular opinions".
That being said, here are mine:
—I love most of the interactions between the alpha kids. People tend to dismiss the romantic subplots as "teen drama" that derailed the plot, but I loved the part where they are on their quests slabs and they are just... talking. About their feelings. It felt very real, and I know most folks don't read Homestuck for the drama, but I thought it was very well writen and didn't have a problem with it.
—The ending was okay. It wasn't perfect, and I wish we had seen the kids fight Lord English, but I found it to be acceptable. Maybe after so many years I just wanted it to end.
—I never bought the whole "cherubs can't experience red romance" stuff. I mean, Calliope seems pretty sure of it, but she's also just plain wrong about a lot of stuff, and I'm surprised so many people took that information at face value.
—On the same vein, I don't think humans are unable of feeling kismesistude. In fact, while the word itself was made up by Hussie, the idea itself is old as heck, and some writers (fanfic writers, specially) have been exploring it since before Homestuck's a thing. An example of mainstream blackrom would be Lee and Claire, from Broadchurch.
—Davekat didn't really feel forced to me.
—As a ship, Roxygen is boring as hell. I never got why it was so popular.
—I never gave a damm if people shipped incest ships, and I still don't.
Edit: Lol didn't realize this thread was moribund.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 9, 2017 15:41:21 GMT
—On the same vein, I don't think humans are unable of feeling kismesistude. In fact, while the word itself was made up by Hussie, the idea itself is old as heck, and some writers (fanfic writers, specially) have been exploring it since before Homestuck's a thing. An example of mainstream blackrom would be Lee and Claire, from Broadchurch. I don't know the specific example of Lee and Claire, but I do know that when people claim to find black romance in other works of fiction, it's usually due to a misunderstanding of what black romance is. A kismesis is not a situation where people fall in love despite (or even because of) hating each other, because love is not involved in blackrom at all. Kismesistude is when one experiances the same sexual and romantic attraction to someone, but through feelings of hate rather than love. Like I said, I don't know the specific example you said, but I'm willing to bet that's not what's going on there.
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Ancient
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Post by Ancient on Aug 9, 2017 20:49:25 GMT
I don't really care about the sprite^2's.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 13, 2017 20:20:23 GMT
—On the same vein, I don't think humans are unable of feeling kismesistude. In fact, while the word itself was made up by Hussie, the idea itself is old as heck, and some writers (fanfic writers, specially) have been exploring it since before Homestuck's a thing. An example of mainstream blackrom would be Lee and Claire, from Broadchurch. I don't know the specific example of Lee and Claire, but I do know that when people claim to find black romance in other works of fiction, it's usually due to a misunderstanding of what black romance is. A kismesis is not a situation where people fall in love despite (or even because of) hating each other, because love is not involved in blackrom at all. Kismesistude is when one experiances the same sexual and romantic attraction to someone, but through feelings of hate rather than love. Like I said, I don't know the specific example you said, but I'm willing to bet that's not what's going on there. How does romance ≠ love? And if there's no love at all involved, then what makes it sexual and not just platonic hatred? If you completely hate someone how would you find anything attractive about them? And how would vacillating be possible, if there is love in red but none in black? Karkat told himself he wanted Terezi in every quadrant, which means it was possible for him to feel both for her. Hell, I think Terezi and Vriska would make fine Kismessises, but it seems clear the two don't hate each other to the point where they don't like each other, or don't admire things about each other, or care about each other in their own fucked up way. The idea that there's no love in black makes no sense to me. You could argue it's an incredibly dysfunctional kind of love, but everything points to it being a kind of love to me.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 14, 2017 15:09:47 GMT
How does romance ≠ love? And if there's no love at all involved, then what makes it sexual and not just platonic hatred? If you completely hate someone how would you find anything attractive about them? Because trolls feel attraction that way, it's only absurd to us because we're human. That's kind of my point really. I didn't say it wasn't possible for one to feel both love and hate for someone, but if there is love, it's irrelevant to the blackrom side of things. The reason I think vacillation is common is because of confusion from sexual attraction. Think of it this way: Even as humans, sexual and romantic attraction are different, yet they're strongly connected; if you're sexually attracted to someone, you're more likely to feel romantically attracted to them and vise versa. Trolls have four forms of romantic attraction, and two of them are connected to sexual attraction, thus being sexually attracted to someone makes them more disposed to feeling both forms of sexually connected romantic attraction to them, leading to the possibility of vacillation. And I'd argue that part of the reason Terezi and Vriska blackrom doesn't work is because they like each other too much.
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Post by mementovivere on Aug 15, 2017 13:22:34 GMT
I don't know the specific example of Lee and Claire, but I do know that when people claim to find black romance in other works of fiction, it's usually due to a misunderstanding of what black romance is. A kismesis is not a situation where people fall in love despite (or even because of) hating each other, because love is not involved in blackrom at all. Kismesistude is when one experiances the same sexual and romantic attraction to someone, but through feelings of hate rather than love. Like I said, I don't know the specific example you said, but I'm willing to bet that's not what's going on there. How does romance ≠ love? And if there's no love at all involved, then what makes it sexual and not just platonic hatred? If you completely hate someone how would you find anything attractive about them? And how would vacillating be possible, if there is love in red but none in black? Karkat told himself he wanted Terezi in every quadrant, which means it was possible for him to feel both for her. Hell, I think Terezi and Vriska would make fine Kismessises, but it seems clear the two don't hate each other to the point where they don't like each other, or don't admire things about each other, or care about each other in their own fucked up way. The idea that there's no love in black makes no sense to me. You could argue it's an incredibly dysfunctional kind of love, but everything points to it being a kind of love to me. Well, I've seen people outside of Homestuck circles make the argument that hatred IS its own kind of love. The opposite of love isn't really hate, it's complete apathy... but if you HATE someone on an interpersonal level, you're still singling them out and obsessing over them as a person, but in a way that focuses on their negatives rather than their positives. I also feel like sexual attraction doesn't necessarily have to be tied to positive feelings towards someone... many people are capable of thinking someone is hot on a purely aesthetic level, but not actually liking them as a person. It's a pretty common trope in fiction: two mortal enemies or rivals who can't STAND each other, but there's still undeniable sexual tension, which just makes them even MORE annoyed with the other person for making them feel a way they're not comfortable with. Queue the cliche "heated argument that ends in a makeout session". Sometimes that just turns into "they actually secretly love each other and can't admit it!" but it doesn't always. I've had situations in my life that were at least SIMILAR to having someone I couldn't stand but had physical chemistry with, so it's not that absurd of a concept to me. I think vacillation is kind of trickier, but people's feelings change over time in the real world too. Unfortunately, many people who were once madly in love eventually get to a point where everything about the other person annoys the shit out of them. Or vice versa! But also, I think Karkat's kind of a weirdo for his species, and his "I want her in every quadrant" thing is basically the equivalent of troll queerness. He talks about it being socially taboo, so it's probably not actually the norm for most trolls to feel MULTIPLE different ways about someone else.
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finepoint
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Post by finepoint on Aug 15, 2017 19:21:11 GMT
unpopular opinion: fantrolls are better than canon.
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Post by ten 11 on Aug 16, 2017 4:25:31 GMT
That's a bit of a generalisation. Some are. Not all, and I would say not most.
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finepoint
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Post by finepoint on Aug 16, 2017 12:51:19 GMT
my bad, thought this was the unpopular opinions thread. i like fantrolls more because you yourself get to participate in the homestuck lore almost like a dnd game.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 18, 2017 0:27:09 GMT
How does romance ≠ love? And if there's no love at all involved, then what makes it sexual and not just platonic hatred? If you completely hate someone how would you find anything attractive about them? Because trolls feel attraction that way, it's only absurd to us because we're human. That's kind of my point really. And that would mean John and Terezi...? I mean, whether you like that ship or not, it was basically the comic proving that yes, humans could feel hate love too. I didn't say it wasn't possible for one to feel both love and hate for someone, but if there is love, it's irrelevant to the blackrom side of things. The reason I think vacillation is common is because of confusion from sexual attraction. Think of it this way: Even as humans, sexual and romantic attraction are different, yet they're strongly connected; if you're sexually attracted to someone, you're more likely to feel romantically attracted to them and vise versa. Trolls have four forms of romantic attraction, and two of them are connected to sexual attraction, thus being sexually attracted to someone makes them more disposed to feeling both forms of sexually connected romantic attraction to them, leading to the possibility of vacillation. Eh, I just can't see it that way. The story treats blackroms as legitimate relationships as opposed to hookups or fuckbuddies. And I'd argue that part of the reason Terezi and Vriska blackrom doesn't work is because they like each other too much. My interpretation was always that they felt strongly for each other, but could never figure out what it was they felt so strongly. And it's foreshadowed in more than one place. Nepeta has them in that quadrant on her wall and during Terezi's confrontation with Vriska where their ancestor's confrontation is used for compare, contrast, and as part of the theme of never ending cycles and history repeating, Mindfang writes that she and Red Glare would've made magnificent rivals.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 18, 2017 7:01:13 GMT
Because trolls feel attraction that way, it's only absurd to us because we're human. That's kind of my point really. And that would mean John and Terezi...? ...are fictional characters. Their experiences and actions can't be used as evidence for what real life humans are capable of. But besides that, what Karkat actually says is that John is feeling the precursor emotions that lead to Black-Rom, not Black-Rom itself. But besides that, part of the problem with this whole topic is that the definition of Black-rom seems to have drifted over the course of the story. When first described in Act 5, it's presented as like an intense arch-rivalry, where the romantic passion is derived from the thrill of the confrontation with one's kismet, and also explicitly said to be unable to be put in human terms properly. But in late Act 6, with John and Terezi, Karkat describes the feeling as simply liking someone in a positive/red way, while finding some particular quirks of theirs annoying. So the question of "Can humans experience Blackrom?" will never have a clear answer, because the question itself isn't clearly defined. Now, for the sake of staying on the thread's topic(while also partially continuing this conversation): Unpopular Opinion: Troll Culture isn't that greatly written. I don't think Hussie did a very good job of making an alien culture that is both fantastical while also being believable. Not that I blame him, its a very difficult task by definition and many other works of fiction have similarly failed. In this case, I think Troll Culture isn't nearly as alien as it seems. Underneath the obfuscated terminology, and obvious parallels of general life(e.g. Parents vs. Lusii) most of Troll culture translates pretty directly into human experiences. But despite that, I feel like half of Act 5's word count was just the humans and trolls saying "Gee, you're weird" to one another, which mildly annoys me. Black-rom was about the only really alien thing going for them, but because it's incomprehensible to humans, it makes for a bad plot device, for obvious reasons, which is possibly why Hussie never bothered to have a proper Black relationship feature in the story.
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