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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 21, 2016 12:13:33 GMT
I don't think that the kids of Homestuck are anything but white, and I don't mean literally paper white. Caucasian is what I believe they are and have been referred to as so within the comic. Dave and Rose are very much white in my opinion. I will say that I'm not against people drawing them in whatever ethnicity they want for the fun of it. In fact, I have actually enjoyed their interpretations of the characters. It's their art and if they feel like it they can. But within the canon of the story, I have to say they're all white. I think Hussie just said that they're any ethnicity you want them to be just to pander to people so he wouldn't get backlash from the community. Eh. Hussie doesn't strike me as a pander type. More the 'I'll do whatever the hell I want and if bother's you, bonus points for me!' type, with some notable exceptions. I think it occurred to him after a while he made a comic where the only human characters we know who come from all over the country are most likely white and that's....yeah. Personally, if there was ever an adaptation, I'd like the hints at their whiteness edited out.
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Post by The One Guy on Jul 21, 2016 13:34:33 GMT
Eh, it'd be hard to take out all the hints at whiteness. I mean, Kanaya's comment about Rose and John's comment about Dave's Bro can be removed, sure, but Dave (and Bro) really wouldn't be the same without the inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers, and what about Jane being a believable heir to the Betty Crocker figure, or the racist Colonel Sassacre adopting two of the characters? I could go on.
I find it odd that people are saying thinking John is not a homosexual is unpopular. Maybe it's just because I don't get into the shipping part of the fandom, but most people I've seen either agree that he's not homosexual or haven't said anything about it at all.
Finally, I don't think any opinion on Vriska could ever be considered unpopular. Regardless of what you think of her, there's a sizeable number of people that agree with you.
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Post by Georgie on Jul 21, 2016 16:44:24 GMT
I don't think that the kids of Homestuck are anything but white, and I don't mean literally paper white. Caucasian is what I believe they are and have been referred to as so within the comic. Dave and Rose are very much white in my opinion. I will say that I'm not against people drawing them in whatever ethnicity they want for the fun of it. In fact, I have actually enjoyed their interpretations of the characters. It's their art and if they feel like it they can. But within the canon of the story, I have to say they're all white. I think Hussie just said that they're any ethnicity you want them to be just to pander to people so he wouldn't get backlash from the community. Agreed. "The characters are all canonically white, but you can imagine that they're whatever ethnicity you want them to be!" is certainly one of the more interesting ways I've seen of dismissing the lack of racial diversity in a work. Imagine if people applied that standard to everything. Eh, it'd be hard to take out all the hints at whiteness. I mean, Kanaya's comment about Rose and John's comment about Dave's Bro can be removed, sure, but Dave (and Bro) really wouldn't be the same without the inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers, and what about Jane being a believable heir to the Betty Crocker figure, or the racist Colonel Sassacre adopting two of the characters? I could go on. Hm… The whole "white rapper = lame" thing never actually occurred to me. Would that much really be lost if Dave and Bro weren't white? I mean, it's a pretty silly stereotype to begin with, and if one still wanted the Striders to be portrayed in a somewhat laughable fashion, that could easily be achieved regardless of their race. Also, concerning Jane: she could still very easily be a believable heir if she were mixed race. You'd be surprised. A large number of people in the shipping part of the fandom have taken John clearly stating that he is not a homosexual to be evidence that he is indeed a homosexual, albeit a closeted one. Now, I don't really care how people ship characters (it's fanon; you can play around with the sexualities of characters as much as you like), but it irks me when people claim that John is canonically gay.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Jul 21, 2016 18:03:37 GMT
Eh, it'd be hard to take out all the hints at whiteness. (1) I mean, Kanaya's comment about Rose and John's comment about Dave's Bro can be removed, sure, but (2) Dave (and Bro) really wouldn't be the same without the inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers, and (3) what about Jane being a believable heir to the Betty Crocker figure, or the (4) racist Colonel Sassacre adopting two of the characters? I could go on. 1. The trolls have skin colors ranging from a medium grey to pitch black (as seen with the Ancestors), "pale" for them could be anything from the common definition of pale in the west to including most of humanity. As well, "white" has ranged from just "Germanic" Europe (i.e. Only England, Germany, and Scandinavia) to including all of Europe, Latin America, Australia, North Africa and the Middle East. 2. The factor only matters if the "inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers" was something apparent to you. For me, it was not. 3. The Betty Crocker of Homestuck is very different entity than the real one (EDIT: which I just realized isn't actually a corporation but a brand) : its lead by an actual Betty Crocker and is a dominating figure in more parts of the world than just baking. I don't think the Condesce would actually care race, given that she just generally hates humanity. Many american corporations have non-white CEOs or non-white representative figures, and Betty Crocker doesn't even use the Betty Crocker character much. 4. There's always doublethink; Andrew Jackson had two adopted native american children, for instance, and there are a countless number of instances of similar things occurring in bigoted societies with bigoted people.
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Post by legendary on Jul 21, 2016 18:42:25 GMT
John refers to all eight of the humans as "little pink monkeys" when talking to Karkat about them, as does the command prompt. They might not all be caucasian (babies are weird and frequently don't have the phenotypes they'll grow into), but they're definitely all on the light end of the spectrum going by the text. Like I said before, Hussie did a really bad job of actually making the kids aracial and clearly pictured them all as white.
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Post by The One Guy on Jul 21, 2016 19:37:07 GMT
Spoilered due to getting a bit long and being slightly off topic (though keeping the final, most important point revealed). 1. The trolls have skin colors ranging from a medium grey to pitch black (as seen with the Ancestors), "pale" for them could be anything from the common definition of pale in the west to including most of humanity. As well, "white" has ranged from just "Germanic" Europe (i.e. Only England, Germany, and Scandinavia) to including all of Europe, Latin America, Australia, North Africa and the Middle East. I was under the impression that the "black" skin of the ancestors was just a stylistic thing, not their actual skin color. But that hardly matters because Kanaya didn't say "pale," she said " Skin as white as a ghost!" 2. The factor only matters if the "inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers" was something apparent to you. For me, it was not. I guess I thought that was a more commonly held belief than it is. Maybe it's becoming an outdated stereotype given that I'm older than most homestuck fans. Nonetheless, I can't help but think John's comment on the subject builds off of the concept (" that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion, i am just saying that being a white guy who is a rapper with a ventriloquist doll is not cool by any stretch of the imagination or by any definition of word cool, ironic or otherwise. that's all i'm saying."). 3. The Betty Crocker of Homestuck is very different entity than the real one (EDIT: which I just realized isn't actually a corporation but a brand) : its lead by an actual Betty Crocker and is a dominating figure in more parts of the world than just baking. I don't think the Condesce would actually care race, given that she just generally hates humanity. Many american corporations have non-white CEOs or non-white representative figures, and Betty Crocker doesn't even use the Betty Crocker character much. Well, in the comic it's said that Jane is believed to be Betty Crocker's heir, something Jane finds ridiculous as she believes Betty Crocker doesn't exist, which would imply that she's believed to be the descendant of the Betty Crocker figure. While it's possible that in the Homestuck universe, due to the Condesce being in charge, the Betty Crocker figure is non-white, Occam's razor would suggest Jane is white (or at least mixed race) and be done with it. 4. There's always doublethink; Andrew Jackson had two adopted native american children, for instance, and there are a countless number of instances of similar things occurring in bigoted societies with bigoted people. Well, fair enough there, really. Also a couple other things: Grandpa Harley is described as a "world renowned explorer-naturalist-treasure hunter-archeologist-scientist-adventurer-big game hunter-billionaire extraordinaire." While this certainly doesn't mean he has to be white, given the time period when he likely gained such fame, it seems likely. In a similar vein Poppop Crocker became famous in about the same era as Grandpa Harley. While he still could be of another race, his appearance seems to be that of a white comedian of that time. Rose's mom's visual design is largely based off as a stereotypical rich, aristocratic mother, another stereotype implying being white. Finally, I'm not saying any of this proves that the characters are white (well, John's comment about Dave's bro is pretty straightforward, but that's something that can be easily removed). Of course you can come up with ways to explain all of these away, and a headcanon of them being all non-white is perfectly fine and valid. But the fact that you have to explain them away in the first place shows that they do at least imply that the characters are white, and removing all such implications would change a lot.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Jul 21, 2016 20:08:22 GMT
Finally, I'm not saying any of this proves that the characters are white (well, John's comment about Dave's bro is pretty straightforward, but that's something that can be easily removed). Of course you can come up with ways to explain all of these away, and a headcanon of them being all non-white is perfectly fine and valid. But the fact that you have to explain them away in the first place shows that they do at least imply that the characters are white, and removing all such implications would change a lot. You're points are good and and these factors do make it seem like Hussie (intentionally or not) worked under the assumption they were caucasian at points in the comic. I've just been personally unsettled by some related discourse on other forms of social media.
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Post by imglasses on Jul 21, 2016 20:08:30 GMT
"i consider the kids a-racial.
the only race they obviously definitely arent is black.
which is very racist of me."
-Hussie, on his Formspring
Not sure if that was brought up or not.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 22, 2016 6:20:49 GMT
Eh, it'd be hard to take out all the hints at whiteness. I mean, Kanaya's comment about Rose and John's comment about Dave's Bro can be removed, sure, but Dave (and Bro) really wouldn't be the same without the inherent "lameness" society associates with white rappers, and what about Jane being a believable heir to the Betty Crocker figure, or the racist Colonel Sassacre adopting two of the characters? I could go on. I find it odd that people are saying thinking John is not a homosexual is unpopular. Maybe it's just because I don't get into the shipping part of the fandom, but most people I've seen either agree that he's not homosexual or haven't said anything about it at all. Finally, I don't think any opinion on Vriska could ever be considered unpopular. Regardless of what you think of her, there's a sizeable number of people that agree with you. Did we ever actually see what the Betty Crocker mascot looks like in this universe? One more thing, it occurred to me that it's ridiculous to call having non-white characters in your story pandering, since no one calls it pandering when the whole cast is white. Just wanted to say that.
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Post by Georgie on Jul 22, 2016 12:12:18 GMT
One more thing, it occurred to me that it's ridiculous to call having non-white characters in your story pandering, since no one calls it pandering when the whole cast is white. Just wanted to say that. Okay, in this instance, the problem isn't simply having non-white characters; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The actual problem is establishing characters as white and then trying to explain it away once you realise that your cast is homogeneous as hell, as opposed to simply admitting your work's faults. (A-racial? Really?) It comes across as a desperate and disingenuous attempt to try to appease people without actually having to go through the effort of writing non-white characters. Hussie noticed that racial diversity is a positive thing (good), so he tried to find a way to somehow incorporate it into the comic mid-story without changing a thing about the comic itself (bad), which doesn't constitute actual representation. (Oh, and the only reason that all-white casts aren't considered pandering—in most of the West, at least; they easily can be elsewhere—is because being white is the norm, and you can't exactly "pander" by doing what's generally expected of you in society.) So yeah, I'm pretty confident in my decision to refer to what Hussie's done as pandering. It was a shallow move that only serves to satisfy certain members of his fanbase and make himself look good.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 22, 2016 13:20:27 GMT
One more thing, it occurred to me that it's ridiculous to call having non-white characters in your story pandering, since no one calls it pandering when the whole cast is white. Just wanted to say that. Okay, in this instance, the problem isn't simply having non-white characters; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The actual problem is establishing characters as white and then trying to explain it away once you realise that your cast is homogeneous as hell, as opposed to simply admitting your work's faults. (A-racial? Really?) It comes across as a desperate and disingenuous attempt to try to appease people without actually having to go through the effort of writing non-white characters. Hussie noticed that racial diversity is a positive thing (good), so he tried to find a way to somehow incorporate it into the comic mid-story without changing a thing about the comic itself (bad), which doesn't constitute actual representation. There were problems with the Strilonde's, (Well, Rose and Dirk anyway. They're both described as white, but if Roxy wasn't and Dave took after her...) but the Harleyberts were fair game. And if he'd committed to the edit (heh, he could've actually had John edit some of the old stuff out in one of his zaps for some extra meta-ness) I would've accepted it. (Oh, and the only reason that all-white casts aren't considered pandering—in most of the West, at least; they easily can be elsewhere—is because being white is the norm, and you can't exactly "pander" by doing what's generally expected of you in society.) Being white is the norm, huh? That depends on where you live. Dave lived in Houston and Rose lived just outside NYC, both highly populous and diverse cities, so it wouldn't have been unlikely for either of them to be of color. And the suburbs are not completely devoid of color either depending on where you go. Even with the family lines being what they are, there's nothing particularly unlikely about the cast not all being white. And pandering is still pandering even if everybody does it or it's deemed by peers to be socially acceptable. To claim otherwise is to fall for the framing used by people who get uncomfortable when, for once, it's their race that's outnumbered in a cast of characters.
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Post by cookiefonster on Jul 22, 2016 13:58:46 GMT
(Oh, and the only reason that all-white casts aren't considered pandering—in most of the West, at least; they easily can be elsewhere—is because being white is the norm, and you can't exactly "pander" by doing what's generally expected of you in society.) Being white is the norm, huh? That depends on where you live. Dave lived in Houston and Rose lived just outside NYC, both highly populous and diverse cities, so it wouldn't have been unlikely for either of them to be of color. And the suburbs are not completely devoid of color either depending on where you go. Even with the family lines being what they are, there's nothing particularly unlikely about the cast not all being white. And pandering is still pandering even if everybody does it or it's deemed by peers to be socially acceptable. To claim otherwise is to fall for the framing used by people who get uncomfortable when, for once, it's their race that's outnumbered in a cast of characters. Actually, Rose lives far from NYC, in the woods of upstate New York.
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Post by imglasses on Jul 22, 2016 14:01:38 GMT
I never saw how people can interpret the Strilalondes as black, when we know their hair is genetically white or light blonde. Is it possible for people with dark skin to have light hair naturally?
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Jul 22, 2016 15:50:00 GMT
I never saw how people can interpret the Strilalondes as black, when we know their hair is genetically white or light blonde. Is it possible for people with dark skin to have light hair naturally? Yes. While blonde hair is generally uncommon (partially since it developed quite recently), the trait can be found in a couple of different communities, such as in the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia, who have dark skin but naturally have light hair, especially among children.
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Post by aquilus3 on Jul 22, 2016 17:26:26 GMT
I don't know. Some people interpret Jade and John as being a darker complexion. I could see that since Jade lives in the Pacific. Not specific if it's Hawaii or not. Some people even made them out to be black. But I don't think it's that.
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Post by The One Guy on Jul 22, 2016 19:36:37 GMT
I don't know. Some people interpret Jade and John as being a darker complexion. I could see that since Jade lives in the Pacific. Not specific if it's Hawaii or not. Some people even made them out to be black. But I don't think it's that. We're given the coordinates of Jade's house and it's clearly not Hawaii. It doesn't correspond to any real life island and if I recall correctly, Hussie picked a spot on Google maps he felt looked like it could have been intentionally smudged out. But regardless, it has no bearing on her skintone as she moved there and didn't have a pacific islander ancestry (or any ancestry for that matter). Unless you mean she has a tan.
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Post by imglasses on Jul 22, 2016 19:46:47 GMT
I mean, theoretically, they could have rainbow skin or something. They're not related to the rest of the human race, so there's no guarantee that they're actually even human. But presumably they at least look close enough to human that they haven't been experimented on or anything.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 22, 2016 20:56:51 GMT
Being white is the norm, huh? That depends on where you live. Dave lived in Houston and Rose lived just outside NYC, both highly populous and diverse cities, so it wouldn't have been unlikely for either of them to be of color. And the suburbs are not completely devoid of color either depending on where you go. Even with the family lines being what they are, there's nothing particularly unlikely about the cast not all being white. And pandering is still pandering even if everybody does it or it's deemed by peers to be socially acceptable. To claim otherwise is to fall for the framing used by people who get uncomfortable when, for once, it's their race that's outnumbered in a cast of characters. Actually, Rose lives far from NYC, in the woods of upstate New York. Yes, in the Adirondacks, that's why I said outside NYC. Even if it's not next door, just the state brings to mind the city for a reader. It's what the it's most famous for. I never saw how people can interpret the Strilalondes as black, when we know their hair is genetically white or light blonde. Is it possible for people with dark skin to have light hair naturally? Yes. While blonde hair is generally uncommon (partially since it developed quite recently), the trait can be found in a couple of different communities, such as in the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia, who have dark skin but naturally have light hair, especially among children. And remember the Strilonde's weird colored eyes. Blonde hair on dark skinned peeps wouldn't be that much of a stretch when you take into account their red, orange, pink and purple eyes.
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Post by legendary on Jul 22, 2016 22:51:15 GMT
You said "just outside NYC", which to most people implies "next door", hence cookiefonster's correction.
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Post by Georgie on Jul 23, 2016 2:08:00 GMT
Okay, in this instance, the problem isn't simply having non-white characters; there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The actual problem is establishing characters as white and then trying to explain it away once you realise that your cast is homogeneous as hell, as opposed to simply admitting your work's faults. (A-racial? Really?) It comes across as a desperate and disingenuous attempt to try to appease people without actually having to go through the effort of writing non-white characters. Hussie noticed that racial diversity is a positive thing (good), so he tried to find a way to somehow incorporate it into the comic mid-story without changing a thing about the comic itself (bad), which doesn't constitute actual representation. There were problems with the Strilonde's, (Well, Rose and Dirk anyway. They're both described as white, but if Roxy wasn't and Dave took after her...) but the Harleyberts were fair game. And if he'd committed to the edit (heh, he could've actually had John edit some of the old stuff out in one of his zaps for some extra meta-ness) I would've accepted it. Fair enough. I still can't accept it. When I first read through the comic, I thought it was quite clear that the kids (or the Strilondes, at least) were all white, and, though I was slightly disappointed, I could deal with it. When I read Hussie's statement on the matter, however, I found it pretty cringe-worthy and honestly kind of patronising. I suppose I'm just frustrated by how many people seem to shower him with praise for what's clearly him just covering his tracks. (Oh, and the only reason that all-white casts aren't considered pandering—in most of the West, at least; they easily can be elsewhere—is because being white is the norm, and you can't exactly "pander" by doing what's generally expected of you in society.) Being white is the norm, huh? That depends on where you live. Dave lived in Houston and Rose lived just outside NYC, both highly populous and diverse cities, so it wouldn't have been unlikely for either of them to be of color. And the suburbs are not completely devoid of color either depending on where you go. Even with the family lines being what they are, there's nothing particularly unlikely about the cast not all being white. And pandering is still pandering even if everybody does it or it's deemed by peers to be socially acceptable. Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear here. Let's forget about the characters of Homestuck for a moment; my statement here was a bit of a tangent and is not related to them. When I say "being white is the norm", I refer to the fact that white people are the largest racial group in many Western countries on national scales, and they dominate the vast majority of Western media. Those are facts. I'm perfectly aware of how demographics can vary from location to location. I don't exactly live in a particularly white area. My point was that all-white casts don't usually count as pandering because, in the majority of cases, no thought goes into the race of the characters. Being white is seen by many as being "ordinary" (for obvious reasons), so many people don't even bat an eyelid when every character in a work is white. It has to be pointed out to them. People don't actively come up with all-white casts in order to appeal to white people (well, they sometimes do, but not often). In order to pander, one must make a conscious effort to… well, pander. You can't pander accidentally or subconsciously. That doesn't make any sense. However, people—particularly white people—can and will make half-arsed, piss-poor attempts to incorporate non-white characters into their works in an effort to either show off how progressive they are or tap into non-white demographics, who, let's be honest, will often have to be happy with whatever they're given. This is pandering. Oftentimes, a lot of the people who actually fall for this are other white people who want to be seen as progressive; non-white people gain nothing. To claim otherwise is to fall for the framing used by people who get uncomfortable when, for once, it's their race that's outnumbered in a cast of characters. No. No, it really isn't. Yes, some irrational white people do get touchy when they suddenly become the minority in something, but pointing out that most cases of all-white casts are unintentional and thus not pandering does not somehow condone them.
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Post by cookiefonster on Jul 23, 2016 2:53:10 GMT
Uh, I created this thread, and I'd rather not have it turn into a debate on the kids' races. Why don't we get back on topic.
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Post by imglasses on Jul 23, 2016 3:14:01 GMT
Why don't we get back on topic. Is that your unpopular opinionThe retcon wasn't that bad. It was only bad because Hussie decided to end the comic pretty much immediately after it happened, making it so even more things were left unresolved. Actually most problems I have with Homestuck boil down to "the ending came prematurely".
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Post by Georgie on Jul 23, 2016 13:26:49 GMT
Uh, I created this thread, and I'd rather not have it turn into a debate on the kids' races. Why don't we get back on topic. Apologies. These sorts of discussion always tend to get me a bit riled up. If anyone wishes to respond to my previous post, they can PM me. The retcon wasn't that bad. It was only bad because Hussie decided to end the comic pretty much immediately after it happened, making it so even more things were left unresolved. Actually most problems I have with Homestuck boil down to "the ending came prematurely". I concur. The retcon was a decent idea in theory, but so little came of it, and it left so much unanswered. Given more time, I'm sure it could have led to a more satisfying ending.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 24, 2016 10:10:28 GMT
To claim otherwise is to fall for the framing used by people who get uncomfortable when, for once, it's their race that's outnumbered in a cast of characters. No. No, it really isn't. Yes, some irrational white people do get touchy when they suddenly become the minority in something, but pointing out that most cases of all-white casts are unintentional and thus not pandering does not somehow condone them. I know we want to get off this topic, but I think it's important to say just one more thing. Even if HUSSIE didn't make all the kids white to pander to white people, (because it doesn't seem very likely at all that he did) that does not mean that's not a thing that happens. There are studios that, in order to sell movies to international markets, cast primarily white people or erase people of color from international posters. A lot of tv shows cast primarily white casts or people of color in old stereotypes to appeal to that demographic. So it annoys me when people talk about pandering to people of color when that happens far less often and is thereby much easier to spot as something unusual. ANYWAY....maybe this is only unpopular depending on the fans you talk to, but I still have zero sympathy for Vriska. I couldn't care less what happens to her (any version of her) and I feel like all the time we spent on her post-Cascade has been a pretty big waste of time I would've loved for Hussie to have used on anything or anyone else.
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Post by thedude3445 on Jul 26, 2016 6:56:45 GMT
While the conversation is mostly dead, my two cents is that the characters were obviously created as white, but then Hussie decided they'd be better off as racially ambiguous (though Dave and Rose never got that chance unless they're like Aboriginal or something lol). I always thought he did the motif of old black men being in most of the obscure pop culture references partly to make up for the all-white main cast, but I have no real evidence towards that.
My unpopular opinion related to pandering is that I do think Hussie ended up pandering quite a bit towards "progressive" stuff (whatever that term actually means varies from person to person), though not in a super cynical way like a lot of recent comic makers. The comic was already incredibly good with having a very diverse cast in a lot of different ways, which is one of the reasons it attracted its massive Tumblr audience in 2011 and 2012. But I think it went a little into pandering territory later on especially with a couple of the ships, though I will decline to say which so no flame wars break out. That's mostly a symptom of fan pandering and not "progressive" pandering I'm sure, but it ended up looking that way. I probably wouldn't categorize Davepetasprite^2 as pandering via making a non-binary character, but I think I skimmed over all their pesterlogs because they made my eyes hurt so I don't remember much about how that situation was handled. Was that one done well?
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