|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 11, 2017 23:47:37 GMT
For at least two reasons. For one, everything that happens in the masterpiece, which would suggest unless the time line split somewhere, everyone get's sucked into the Juju and Li'l Cal before Caliborn could perform a scratch. So either there's time line shenanigans or the B2 kids found a way to do it, and either possibility would be fun to explore. Ok, I conceede that that would make things interesting, but at the same time, it also acts as evidence against Caliborn's session being pre-scratch, as there's no indication of any such complications. How is it evidence against Caliborn being pre-scratch? If there was no scratch, that wouldn't change the fact that Caliborn's session was spawned from C1. (There's also the matter of a First Guardian. You're supposed to get a new one post-scratch. Does that still happen even though there apparently wasn't one for C1 earth?) That's actually a good point, and acts as evidence against the split being due to a scratch. It wouldn't be any more or less interesting based on who was pre- or post-scratch, though. The First Guardians have always been....well, on Lord English's side, but now that he's actually playing the game there are none to be found. That plus every one of them being made via some code that comes from a player's dreams and/or scribbles on the wall and the fact that we never did see Caliborn's side of the cherubs' room makes that whole question rather interesting to me, at least. For another, I've always liked the idea that the 'glitch' visited upon Universe A that Scratch described as LE's calling card was LE's calling card because it happened in his Universe. Something in C2 affecting C1 would be very interesting and very cool to see. Plus, even without that glitch, we haven't seen a Universe yet that didn't have some bleed over. B had it too in Jade and Jake's correspondences. It would be awesome if it turned out some of the things that wound up in C1 were actually sent from C2 like the Zilly weapons.....were supposed to be. I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Weren't the Zilly weapons created in B2, sent back in time in B2, then sent to B1 with the Bunny? Also, the glitch is all about the players being ectobiologised post-scratch. Given that the cherubs weren't ectobiologised at all, how could it possibly be present in the cherub session? It doesn't have to be ectobiology. If there's any contact between 1 and 2, then 2 has to happen and 1 must be scratched, because if it isn't, how is 2 interfering with 1 in the first place? By that I mean, once Jade and Jake started communicating, it meant (if there weren't other reasons it had to be done) B1 would absolutely have to be scratched, or it would cause a paradox, because if Jade never scratched, there'd be no Jake and they couldn't have communicated. But if ectobiology was involved with the cherubs being born, even in the tiniest and most indirect way, (my personal theory is that the parents were clones of themselves who were placed so they'd meet and procreate, which would explain why the hell Lord English and Condy thought keeping Jake and Jane from having kids would prevent Jade and John from being born) it'd have to take place post-scratch, seeing as how pre-scratch was a Dead Session.Here's what Calliope said about the Zilly weapons for the B1 kids: While they were Tricksters, the B2s clearly made the B1 kids' Zilly weapons, but we never saw them send them back in time. So Jake having them to send them to B1 is, as of now, a paradox. The Alpha trolls had a bomb that Meenah was careful to time as the scratch was happening to kill them all. (Even the God Tiers) Muse!Calliope was killed in Echidna's lair, and it's kind of hard picturing her running out to scratch the construct (which again, by all indications wouldn't be there if she started a Dead Session) and then have the time to run back to Echidna's lair to die. Plus the picture in my head of this happening spoils the hell out of the drama. There are many different options other than Calliope running back to Echidna's lair as fact as she could. If the scratch mechanism is different for dead sessions, it may be easier to complete near Echidna's lair. Echidna could have left her lair to kill her. She could have set up an automated system to initaite the scratch. Echidna could have initiated the scratch after killing her. I could go on. But we see no proof or even suggestion that any of that might be on the table. So until we do, I have to assume none of that stuff is an option. I don't care about open-endedness, and up until Act 7 neither did Hussie. Why is that more important than the planet that the kids worked almost the entire comic to get? If you destroy what our main characters have been questing for for literally years (both in and out of comic) I think it's not asking too much to know why, especially since they have everything they need to prevent it from happening. He didn't care about open-endedness until Act 7 because the story wasn't over yet. Of course what happens in the story is not open-ended because, well, it's part of the story. In a sense the story ends with Earth C; what happens to it after the end is no longer part of the story. But the story still isn't over yet. We still have the epilogue, Homestuck is still marked as [In Progress] on the website, and after seeing just how saturated Hiveswap is with nods to Homestuck I'm not entirely convinced the game won't end up tying into the comic in some way or another either. Not to mention, open endedness has never been Hussie's thing, not just in the vast chronicles of Homestuck that preceded John's last retcon, but in the only MSPA comic he managed to finish: Problem Sleuth. It's possible that despite being devoted to tying up every little loose end until the last quarter of the story Hussie decided abruptly that he didn't want to do that anymore, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me. It kind of just feels like the whole last couple of Acts are another, much longer and more trollish trickster arc, especially since that arc came with a huge rant from Hussie about how kids can't just magically resolve all their problems with the help of a Juju. I never saw any reason to trust Muse!Calliope implicitly. We just don't know all that much about her; just what she tells us, and that isn't very much at all. We don't know what her past was like, how she killed her brother, what her motives are....You asked to what end she'd want to trick our Calliope. To be fair, to what end would she want to undo the Green Sun? Did she want to? Did Echidna ask her to? We don't know. You didn't answer the question. You don't trust her, but you haven't actually given a reason why not to. I mean, aside from not knowing much about her, which is maybe debatable, but I mean a reason to actually find her suspicious. I did answer the question. There's a difference between not trusting someone and finding them suspicious or sinister. I don't see any reason to trust her implicitly because I don't know enough about her to judge whether she is suspicious or sinister or not. I have no information that verifies anything she said, so for all I know she could be lying about everything. We have no idea of her motives, so we don't know if her reasons for doing what she does are noble or sinister. If we were given something more concrete, say an objective glimpse into her life that was presented through any point of view other than hers, it'd be different. But all we have is her word, and we're given no indication of how much that is worth. There's no reason for me to trust someone I know so little about. That's just asking to get taken advantage of, both in real life and by trolling creators.
|
|
|
Post by keybounce on Oct 12, 2017 0:24:07 GMT
There's no indication that there was Ectobiology involved in Caliborn / Calliope. Just a single egg, normally laid, in the remains of a dead planet near a dying sun that will expand and warm the egg.
===
Loose ends: All loose ends must be tied up, even his. The exiles' job is to help tidy up the loops -- see Jade's messages to them as one such set of examples.
I want to see what happens on 11/11 this year.
EDIT: 11/11/17: 2x3 pitchfork with a bent prong. Hmm.
Oh, and I seem to be moving up the escheladder.
|
|
|
Post by ten 11 on Oct 12, 2017 3:34:55 GMT
Ok so, something I haven't seen mentioned so far is the exact difference between Alt-Calliope and Calliope's sessions. Whether they're pre-Scratch or a doomed timeline, something must have caused a change. I think that thing, is Gamzee bringing up the cherubs. I don't think its mentioned, but i got the implication that Gamzee was the reason the cherubs had computers and all that other stuff. Which is how Calliope reached out to the humans, and became "soft". In the timeline where that didn't happen, when they had no outside contact, Calliope managed to overpower Caliborn. Of course this doesn't really give any evidence either way of Alt-Calliope being pre-Scratch or a doomed timeline, but i think its an important point to mention.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Oct 12, 2017 4:37:05 GMT
Ok so, something I haven't seen mentioned so far is the exact difference between Alt-Calliope and Calliope's sessions. Whether they're pre-Scratch or a doomed timeline, something must have caused a change. I think that thing, is Gamzee bringing up the cherubs. I don't think its mentioned, but i got the implication that Gamzee was the reason the cherubs had computers and all that other stuff. Which is how Calliope reached out to the humans, and became "soft". In the timeline where that didn't happen, when they had no outside contact, Calliope managed to overpower Caliborn. Of course this doesn't really give any evidence either way of Alt-Calliope being pre-Scratch or a doomed timeline, but i think its an important point to mention. I think that's fairly likely. Muse-Calliope talks about loneliness a bit, so it's probable that she never had contact with the B2 kids. On the other hand though, if they're without Gamzee, then where did they get their hands on the Sburb software?
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 12, 2017 17:37:13 GMT
Ok, I conceede that that would make things interesting, but at the same time, it also acts as evidence against Caliborn's session being pre-scratch, as there's no indication of any such complications. How is it evidence against Caliborn being pre-scratch? If there was no scratch, that wouldn't change the fact that Caliborn's session was spawned from C1. ...Because Caliborn being pre-scratch would have caused the aforementioned complications, yet we see no evidence that such complications existed. That's actually a good point, and acts as evidence against the split being due to a scratch. It wouldn't be any more or less interesting based on who was pre- or post-scratch, though. The First Guardians have always been....well, on Lord English's side, but now that he's actually playing the game there are none to be found. That plus every one of them being made via some code that comes from a player's dreams and/or scribbles on the wall and the fact that we never did see Caliborn's side of the cherubs' room makes that whole question rather interesting to me, at least. Yes, taking the first guardian into account does make things more interesting, I get that. But you failed to address my question here: Why would Caliborn being first make the first guardian situation any more interesting than Calliope being first? I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Weren't the Zilly weapons created in B2, sent back in time in B2, then sent to B1 with the Bunny? Also, the glitch is all about the players being ectobiologised post-scratch. Given that the cherubs weren't ectobiologised at all, how could it possibly be present in the cherub session? It doesn't have to be ectobiology. If there's any contact between 1 and 2, then 2 has to happen and 1 must be scratched, because if it isn't, how is 2 interfering with 1 in the first place? By that I mean, once Jade and Jake started communicating, it meant (if there weren't other reasons it had to be done) B1 would absolutely have to be scratched, or it would cause a paradox, because if Jade never scratched, there'd be no Jake and they couldn't have communicated. I'm gonna post Doc Scratch's exact words: I'll give you that he calls it a symptom rather than the cause, but he also calls it the symptom, implying it's the only major symptom. Now, I'll give you that this is Doc Scratch, so maybe following implications rather than exact words is the wrong approach, but A. This is something he has no reason to mislead us about, and B. You said yourself Jade and Jake interacting with each other was a case of this, and yet Lord English never arrived in Universe B. [But if ectobiology was involved with the cherubs being born, even in the tiniest and most indirect way, (my personal theory is that the parents were clones of themselves who were placed so they'd meet and procreate, which would explain why the hell Lord English and Condy thought keeping Jake and Jane from having kids would prevent Jade and John from being born) it'd have to take place post-scratch, seeing as how pre-scratch was a Dead Session.But if their parents were clones of themselves, wouldn't post-scratch have them playing the game rather than Caliborn and Calliope? But regardless, even if we assume it is true, saying it has to be done post-scratch, as pre-scratch was a dead session is absurd. For one thing, all evidence suggests that both sessions were dead sessions and for another, even if Calliope's session wasn't a dead session, it likely came first anyway. The only way for your logic to work is if what you theorizing to be true about the sessions is exactly right, and basing a theory of another unproven (and dare I say, unlikely) theory does not help the credibility of your theory. And you definitely can't then use the second theory as evidence for the first, as that would be circular logic. And heck, we know nothing about the state of the veil in a dead session, for all we know ectobiology might be entirely possible there! Here's what Calliope said about the Zilly weapons for the B1 kids: While they were Tricksters, the B2s clearly made the B1 kids' Zilly weapons, but we never saw them send them back in time. So Jake having them to send them to B1 is, as of now, a paradox. Er, what? It's true that we never actually see them sending them back in time. You could consider that a loose end, but it's hardly a paradox. They just sent them back in time at some point off camera, then Jake gets them and sends them to B1 with the bunny. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. There are many different options other than Calliope running back to Echidna's lair as fact as she could. If the scratch mechanism is different for dead sessions, it may be easier to complete near Echidna's lair. Echidna could have left her lair to kill her. She could have set up an automated system to initaite the scratch. Echidna could have initiated the scratch after killing her. I could go on. But we see no proof or even suggestion that any of that might be on the table. So until we do, I have to assume none of that stuff is an option. Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen, whether it be running back to Echidna's lair like you said or one of the ideas I gave. We don't have any evidence for which one happened, but the evidence that one of them happened is inherent in the fact that the scratch happened, and your idea is no more likely than any of the others. And really, there's no proof or suggestion that Caliborn had any way of scratching the session while still participating in the events of the masterpiece (if anything, it's even harder to explain away), yet you somehow find that more believable than any of the entirely possible ways Calliope could have done it? He didn't care about open-endedness until Act 7 because the story wasn't over yet. Of course what happens in the story is not open-ended because, well, it's part of the story. In a sense the story ends with Earth C; what happens to it after the end is no longer part of the story. But the story still isn't over yet. We still have the epilogue, Homestuck is still marked as [In Progress] on the website, and after seeing just how saturated Hiveswap is with nods to Homestuck I'm not entirely convinced the game won't end up tying into the comic in some way or another either. Not to mention, open endedness has never been Hussie's thing, not just in the vast chronicles of Homestuck that preceded John's last retcon, but in the only MSPA comic he managed to finish: Problem Sleuth. It's possible that despite being devoted to tying up every little loose end until the last quarter of the story Hussie decided abruptly that he didn't want to do that anymore, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me. It kind of just feels like the whole last couple of Acts are another, much longer and more trollish trickster arc, especially since that arc came with a huge rant from Hussie about how kids can't just magically resolve all their problems with the help of a Juju. Yes there's still the epilogue, but consider this: If the epilogue doesn't address how the civilization fell, then Earth C acts as an open-ended ending of sorts, just like I said. And there'd be nothing wrong with that. And since you brought up Problem Sleuth, let me point out that the ending there was very open-ended: The main characters escaped their office and into an unknown future in the real world. Heck, it even ends with them getting called on some assignment the details of which are left unknown. And even in the world most of the story takes place in, we don't know what happens to it after what's shown in the epilogue.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 13, 2017 0:17:44 GMT
How is it evidence against Caliborn being pre-scratch? If there was no scratch, that wouldn't change the fact that Caliborn's session was spawned from C1. ...Because Caliborn being pre-scratch would have caused the aforementioned complications, yet we see no evidence that such complications existed. Are you suggesting the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session prove that his session is post-scratch? Because that would be completely wrong. The First Guardians have always been....well, on Lord English's side, but now that he's actually playing the game there are none to be found. That plus every one of them being made via some code that comes from a player's dreams and/or scribbles on the wall and the fact that we never did see Caliborn's side of the cherubs' room makes that whole question rather interesting to me, at least. Yes, taking the first guardian into account does make things more interesting, I get that. But you failed to address my question here: Why would Caliborn being first make the first guardian situation any more interesting than Calliope being first? Like I said, the irony of First Guardians always being on LE's side but him not having one is rather interesting to me at least. But whether it's more interesting or not is beside the larger point. The problem is that our cherubs being second would muddle exactly what the First Guardian situation on the Earth in Universe C would be. C1 not having one sort of makes sense because it technically already had one in the form of GCAT. C2 would be weirder. If our cherubs were post scratch, they should have a First Guardian, as you get a new one if you scratch. (see: aforementioned GCAT) So either they are not post-scratch, or there's some kind of heretofore unexplained exception here that the comic needed to address. It doesn't have to be ectobiology. If there's any contact between 1 and 2, then 2 has to happen and 1 must be scratched, because if it isn't, how is 2 interfering with 1 in the first place? By that I mean, once Jade and Jake started communicating, it meant (if there weren't other reasons it had to be done) B1 would absolutely have to be scratched, or it would cause a paradox, because if Jade never scratched, there'd be no Jake and they couldn't have communicated. I'm gonna post Doc Scratch's exact words: I'll give you that he calls it a symptom rather than the cause, but he also calls it the symptom, implying it's the only major symptom. Now, I'll give you that this is Doc Scratch, so maybe following implications rather than exact words is the wrong approach, but A. This is something he has no reason to mislead us about, and B. You said yourself Jade and Jake interacting with each other was a case of this, and yet Lord English never arrived in Universe B. It's obvious how they work the exact same way though, isn't it? While the ectobiology glitch is specifically referred to as English's calling card, the problem with it is it basically dooms the first iteration of a universe to failure and a scratch, or else there would be a paradox. Even though ectobiology in Universe B works the way it is supposed to, Jade and Jake's correspondence causes the same problem the ectobiology glitch would. Jake can't exist if the B1's don't fail to finish making a Universe and scratch their session, and if he doesn't exist he can't talk to Jade. [But if ectobiology was involved with the cherubs being born, even in the tiniest and most indirect way, (my personal theory is that the parents were clones of themselves who were placed so they'd meet and procreate, which would explain why the hell Lord English and Condy thought keeping Jake and Jane from having kids would prevent Jade and John from being born) it'd have to take place post-scratch, seeing as how pre-scratch was a Dead Session.But if their parents were clones of themselves, wouldn't post-scratch have them playing the game rather than Caliborn and Calliope? The thing with cherubs is that the coitus of the parents is essential to determine the alignment of the twins, so just cloning everybody and switching them like S***b has done with humans and trolls is not going to work. Plus, with one set of parents you have two potential combinations in the children who will play, but with more it gets way more complicated and harder to control. My theory is the normal way of doing business was chucked, and S***b just settled for what it could get done. Hell, it could turn out to be something even weirder, like the twins being their own parents or something. But whatever the case is, cherubs are very different from both trolls and humans, in that their birth can't be facilitated the same way the other players' births were. So what way did it happen? Was the cherub session different in that there was no ectobiology? (Which would seem out of character for S***b, which likes to control everything.) Or was there, but it was different than normal? Something else? *shrug* We never get to know for sure. But if ectobiology was involved at all, it would have to be from C2. But regardless, even if we assume it is true, saying it has to be done post-scratch, as pre-scratch was a dead session is absurd. For one thing, all evidence suggests that both sessions were dead sessions and for another, even if Calliope's session wasn't a dead session, it likely came first anyway. While everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive, it doesn't confirm beyond a doubt that's what she played, and there isn't even anything that suggests Muse!Calliope's session was pre-scratch and Caliborn's was post, and in fact there are quite a few things that make it incredibly unlikely. I mean, the idea that our cherubs are post-scratch was a misstatement of someone who, with all due respect, got just about everything they remembered about the comic wrong. The only way for your logic to work is if what you theorizing to be true about the sessions is exactly right, and basing a theory of another unproven (and dare I say, unlikely) theory does not help the credibility of your theory. And you definitely can't then use the second theory as evidence for the first, as that would be circular logic. And heck, we know nothing about the state of the veil in a dead session, for all we know ectobiology might be entirely possible there! All I'm saying is that if any ectobiology did occur in Universe C, the only place it could possibly happen is C2, because we've seen with our own eyes that C1 is out. And like I said, while everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is very suggestive, unlike Caliborn's session, we don't see it for ourselves. Here's what Calliope said about the Zilly weapons for the B1 kids: While they were Tricksters, the B2s clearly made the B1 kids' Zilly weapons, but we never saw them send them back in time. So Jake having them to send them to B1 is, as of now, a paradox. Er, what? It's true that we never actually see them sending them back in time. You could consider that a loose end, but it's hardly a paradox. They just sent them back in time at some point off camera, then Jake gets them and sends them to B1 with the bunny. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If they aren't shown doing it, or even saying they're doing it, then there's no reason for us to think that they did it. But we see no proof or even suggestion that any of that might be on the table. So until we do, I have to assume none of that stuff is an option. Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen, whether it be running back to Echidna's lair like you said or one of the ideas I gave. We don't have any evidence for which one happened, but the evidence that one of them happened is inherent in the fact that the scratch happened, and your idea is no more likely than any of the others. That would be coming up with a conclusion and then trying to come up with evidence to support it. And said evidence is still insufficient anyway. And really, there's no proof or suggestion that Caliborn had any way of scratching the session while still participating in the events of the masterpiece (if anything, it's even harder to explain away), yet you somehow find that more believable than any of the entirely possible ways Calliope could have done it? Yes. For one, there's a possibility that the Caliborn that watched the masterpiece and the Caliborn in it are not the same, due to masterpiece Caliborn being surprised by the kids' ambush. If that's the case, the one watching could've scratched out of frustration after having waited for a battle that would never come. For another, the B2 kids could've found a way to scratch. If Rose was fighting with a Zilly weapon, she could've taken that with her into the Juju and left Echidna's Quills behind for somebody to use. Or they could've used Dirk's sword, which Bro already proved could affect the scratch construct. Or hell, another Recton John could've shown up to help. None of this is in any way confirmed to have actually happened, but it is at least possible, however unlikely. By contrast, all evidence points to, if Muse!Calliope played a Dead Session, both her only having a Space player's planet and thus no scratch construct, that there is no way to scratch without one, and her having no time to both scratch and get killed by Echidna and thereby leave a ghost behind. There is also absolutely nothing to suggest she is pre-scratch and our cherubs are post. There are, in fact, things that suggest the exact opposite, like the cherubs' aforementioned lack of a First Guardian. But the story still isn't over yet. We still have the epilogue, Homestuck is still marked as [In Progress] on the website, and after seeing just how saturated Hiveswap is with nods to Homestuck I'm not entirely convinced the game won't end up tying into the comic in some way or another either. Not to mention, open endedness has never been Hussie's thing, not just in the vast chronicles of Homestuck that preceded John's last retcon, but in the only MSPA comic he managed to finish: Problem Sleuth. It's possible that despite being devoted to tying up every little loose end until the last quarter of the story Hussie decided abruptly that he didn't want to do that anymore, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me. It kind of just feels like the whole last couple of Acts are another, much longer and more trollish trickster arc, especially since that arc came with a huge rant from Hussie about how kids can't just magically resolve all their problems with the help of a Juju. Yes there's still the epilogue, but consider this: If the epilogue doesn't address how the civilization fell, then Earth C acts as an open-ended ending of sorts, just like I said. And there'd be nothing wrong with that. There's something wrong with that if you care about loose ends and plotholes. And since you brought up Problem Sleuth, let me point out that the ending there was very open-ended: The main characters escaped their office and into an unknown future in the real world. Heck, it even ends with them getting called on some assignment the details of which are left unknown. And even in the world most of the story takes place in, we don't know what happens to it after what's shown in the epilogue. See, that's the thing. Open ended ≠ loose ends and plotholes. An open ending can have those things, but they are not one and the same. You can have an open ending while still tying all the loose ends up. And that's exactly what Problem Sleuth does. You don't know exactly what's going to be up next for the Sleuths, but you do know they escaped their office, what happened with all the other characters, the state of the realm of the dead, the four kingdoms, the doll house, hell, etc. And before that, all the disparate elements that seemingly had no purpose eventually converged onto the boss battle and had some kind of reason to be there. The same cannot be said for Homestuck as it is right now. Hell, Homestuck is LESS open ended, because we have a pretty good idea of what happens to the kids next. The problem is, not only do we not know why, but there were a lot of plot threads that were unceremoniously dropped in the last bit of the story for no apparent reason.
|
|
|
Post by keybounce on Oct 13, 2017 3:15:44 GMT
As I think I posted above, all the things I found on further re-read indicate a dead timeline, not a scratch. So as far as I can tell, now, there is only one C, with planet(s) brought from elsewhere, to a new star, and long, long passage of time and the planet dying. The cherubs are a space faring species with territory measured in light years. And a loser had to lay an egg near a star that would grow and heat the egg (i.e., a star going red giant, with a planet close enough to get baked.)
Now, first guardians only come from scratching? ... I'll have to re-read that section. I remember Bec being a first guardian in a before-scratch world, but in fairness, that was a normal dog plus the Meow code.
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 13, 2017 3:54:31 GMT
...Because Caliborn being pre-scratch would have caused the aforementioned complications, yet we see no evidence that such complications existed. Are you suggesting the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session prove that his session is post-scratch? Because that would be completely wrong. Of course not, that'd be absurd! I'm saying the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session make it more likely that his session is post-scratch. Yes, taking the first guardian into account does make things more interesting, I get that. But you failed to address my question here: Why would Caliborn being first make the first guardian situation any more interesting than Calliope being first? Like I said, the irony of First Guardians always being on LE's side but him not having one is rather interesting to me at least. But whether it's more interesting or not is beside the larger point. The problem is that our cherubs being second would muddle exactly what the First Guardian situation on the Earth in Universe C would be. C1 not having one sort of makes sense because it technically already had one in the form of GCAT. C2 would be weirder. If our cherubs were post scratch, they should have a First Guardian, as you get a new one if you scratch. (see: aforementioned GCAT) So either they are not post-scratch, or there's some kind of heretofore unexplained exception here that the comic needed to address. But wouldn't the pre-scratch session also produce a first guardian? Or alternatively the post scratch session also not produce one if dead sessions are a special case. I see no reason why post- would get one but not pre-. I'm gonna post Doc Scratch's exact words: I'll give you that he calls it a symptom rather than the cause, but he also calls it the symptom, implying it's the only major symptom. Now, I'll give you that this is Doc Scratch, so maybe following implications rather than exact words is the wrong approach, but A. This is something he has no reason to mislead us about, and B. You said yourself Jade and Jake interacting with each other was a case of this, and yet Lord English never arrived in Universe B. It's obvious how they work the exact same way though, isn't it? While the ectobiology glitch is specifically referred to as English's calling card, the problem with it is it basically dooms the first iteration of a universe to failure and a scratch, or else there would be a paradox. Even though ectobiology in Universe B works the way it is supposed to, Jade and Jake's correspondence causes the same problem the ectobiology glitch would. Jake can't exist if the B1's don't fail to finish making a Universe and scratch their session, and if he doesn't exist he can't talk to Jade. Yes, it does cause the same problem, but Jade and Jake's case didn't summon Lord English, so if it is a glitch, it's not the same one. If you want to go more into it, though, I see things this way: it's ultimately predestined if a session scratches or not, so communications between the two sessions would not be problematic as the scratch is inevitable anyway. On the other hand, it's Skaia's job to set up the game and send out the meteors. If the ectobiology occurs in the post-scratch session, then Skaia is doing it's job wrong, hence, a glitch. But regardless, even if we assume it is true, saying it has to be done post-scratch, as pre-scratch was a dead session is absurd. For one thing, all evidence suggests that both sessions were dead sessions and for another, even if Calliope's session wasn't a dead session, it likely came first anyway. While everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive, it doesn't confirm beyond a doubt that's what she played, and there isn't even anything that suggests Muse!Calliope's session was pre-scratch and Caliborn's was post, and in fact there are quite a few things that make it incredibly unlikely. I mean, the idea that our cherubs are post-scratch was a misstatement of someone who, with all due respect, got just about everything they remembered about the comic wrong. You're right, nothing in the comic tells us with 100% certainty that Muse!Calliope's session was a dead session, but you said it yourself, "everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive" and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. So while the possibility exists that it wasn't a dead session, it's pretty darn likely that it was. As for evidence of her being pre-scratch, well, I have three reasons for thinking that: First of all, there's what I already mentioned about Caliborn being less able to do the scratch because of the events of the masterpiece. Secondly, Caliborn has no reason to scratch his session; why would he want to set things up so that his sister could potentially gain power and take him down? And finally, Caliborn won his session. You don't scratch a winning session; it might not even be possible. I admit that it's far less of a certainty, heck it's not even certain there was a scratch in the first place, but it is more likely than her being post-scratch. And even if you don't accept all that, there's still nothing making it any less likely for her to be pre-scratch than post-scratch. The only way for your logic to work is if what you theorizing to be true about the sessions is exactly right, and basing a theory of another unproven (and dare I say, unlikely) theory does not help the credibility of your theory. And you definitely can't then use the second theory as evidence for the first, as that would be circular logic. And heck, we know nothing about the state of the veil in a dead session, for all we know ectobiology might be entirely possible there! All I'm saying is that if any ectobiology did occur in Universe C, the only place it could possibly happen is C2, because we've seen with our own eyes that C1 is out. And like I said, while everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is very suggestive, unlike Caliborn's session, we don't see it for ourselves. Since when did we "[see] with our own eyes that [Caliborn's session] is out?" We barely got to see Caliborn's session at all! (Also you shouldn't really be calling Caliborn's session C1 since, as I've already mentioned, that's not necessarily the case). Er, what? It's true that we never actually see them sending them back in time. You could consider that a loose end, but it's hardly a paradox. They just sent them back in time at some point off camera, then Jake gets them and sends them to B1 with the bunny. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If they aren't shown doing it, or even saying they're doing it, then there's no reason for us to think that they did it. So by your logic, if you see someone being invited to a to a party, and the next time you see them they are already at the party, then they must have teleported in since you didn't notice them enter through the door? I mean when you have the options of "they did it off camera" and "it's a horrible glitch in spacetime that doesn't affect a single thing in the story" then can you really blame me for assuming the former? Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen, whether it be running back to Echidna's lair like you said or one of the ideas I gave. We don't have any evidence for which one happened, but the evidence that one of them happened is inherent in the fact that the scratch happened, and your idea is no more likely than any of the others. That would be coming up with a conclusion and then trying to come up with evidence to support it. And said evidence is still insufficient anyway. Er no? This evidence is how (part of) I came to my conclusion in the first place, not the other way around. And really, there's no proof or suggestion that Caliborn had any way of scratching the session while still participating in the events of the masterpiece (if anything, it's even harder to explain away), yet you somehow find that more believable than any of the entirely possible ways Calliope could have done it? Yes. For one, there's a possibility that the Caliborn that watched the masterpiece and the Caliborn in it are not the same, due to masterpiece Caliborn being surprised by the kids' ambush. If that's the case, the one watching could've scratched out of frustration after having waited for a battle that would never come. For another, the B2 kids could've found a way to scratch. If Rose was fighting with a Zilly weapon, she could've taken that with her into the Juju and left Echidna's Quills behind for somebody to use. Or they could've used Dirk's sword, which Bro already proved could affect the scratch construct. Or hell, another Recton John could've shown up to help. None of this is in any way confirmed to have actually happened, but it is at least possible, however unlikely. So you're telling me these are more likely to be true than the possible explanations I gave for Calliope doing it? By contrast, all evidence points to, if Muse!Calliope played a Dead Session, both her only having a Space player's planet and thus no scratch construct, that there is no way to scratch without one, and her having no time to both scratch and get killed by Echidna and thereby leave a ghost behind. There is also absolutely nothing to suggest she is pre-scratch and our cherubs are post. There are, in fact, things that suggest the exact opposite, like the cherubs' aforementioned lack of a First Guardian. Ok, let's pick apart this "evidence" bit by bit: I'll concede that Caliborn being a time player may be the one bit of evidence that supports your theory that he was first, but that said, he didn't get a special time player planet, he got Earth, just like Calliope did. The lack of time to be killed by Echidna after performing the scratch is a much smaller obstacle to overcome than having your soul trapped in a puppet before you can start the scratch (which I've been arguing heavily already). The fact that there is nothing to suggest Calliope came first is a meaningless assertion when there is also nothing to suggest Caliborn came first. You mention something you say suggests that, and yet: As I mentioned earlier but will elaborate more on now, the first guardian is made by a session for both pre- and post-scratch. If a dead session is a special case where one isn't created, then this would also be true both pre- and post-scratch. And if this is true and on the off chance Calliope didn't have a dead session, then she would have a first guardian and Caliborn wouldn't regardless of which came first. Yes there's still the epilogue, but consider this: If the epilogue doesn't address how the civilization fell, then Earth C acts as an open-ended ending of sorts, just like I said. And there'd be nothing wrong with that. There's something wrong with that if you care about loose ends and plotholes. Except it's not a lose end, it's an open end. And it's not a plot hole unless you assume that the players perfectly protect society for billions of years, which is a rather absurd assumption to make. And since you brought up Problem Sleuth, let me point out that the ending there was very open-ended: The main characters escaped their office and into an unknown future in the real world. Heck, it even ends with them getting called on some assignment the details of which are left unknown. And even in the world most of the story takes place in, we don't know what happens to it after what's shown in the epilogue. See, that's the thing. Open ended ≠ loose ends and plotholes. An open ending can have those things, but they are not one and the same. You can have an open ending while still tying all the loose ends up. And that's exactly what Problem Sleuth does. You don't know exactly what's going to be up next for the Sleuths, but you do know they escaped their office, what happened with all the other characters, the state of the realm of the dead, the four kingdoms, the doll house, hell, etc. And before that, all the disparate elements that seemingly had no purpose eventually converged onto the boss battle and had some kind of reason to be there. The same cannot be said for Homestuck as it is right now. Hell, Homestuck is LESS open ended, because we have a pretty good idea of what happens to the kids next. The problem is, not only do we not know why, but there were a lot of plot threads that were unceremoniously dropped in the last bit of the story for no apparent reason. What you say is entirely true about Homestuck as a whole, but what happens to Earth C is not one of these loose ends or plot holes.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 13, 2017 11:01:43 GMT
Are you suggesting the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session prove that his session is post-scratch? Because that would be completely wrong. Of course not, that'd be absurd! I'm saying the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session make it more likely that his session is post-scratch. Why? That doesn't seem much less absurd.Like I said, the irony of First Guardians always being on LE's side but him not having one is rather interesting to me at least. But whether it's more interesting or not is beside the larger point. The problem is that our cherubs being second would muddle exactly what the First Guardian situation on the Earth in Universe C would be. C1 not having one sort of makes sense because it technically already had one in the form of GCAT. C2 would be weirder. If our cherubs were post scratch, they should have a First Guardian, as you get a new one if you scratch. (see: aforementioned GCAT) So either they are not post-scratch, or there's some kind of heretofore unexplained exception here that the comic needed to address. But wouldn't the pre-scratch session also produce a first guardian? Or alternatively the post scratch session also not produce one if dead sessions are a special case. I see no reason why post- would get one but not pre-. In this particular case the pre-scratch session not getting a First Guardian technically makes sense, as those things are assigned to a particular planet, and the planet that the cherubs live on was already assigned a First Guardian in the form of GCAT. But so far as we've seen, post-scratch sessions always get new FGs. So the cherubs' planet, in all likelihood, would get a new one post-scratch. If not, via some exception to the rule, that exception needs to be explained to us, because it'd be contrary to everything we've seen so far. There's nothing to support that Dead Sessions don't issue First Guardians, as that would've come up when Aranea was telling us literally everything else about them. But it didn't come up there, or anywhere else. It's obvious how they work the exact same way though, isn't it? While the ectobiology glitch is specifically referred to as English's calling card, the problem with it is it basically dooms the first iteration of a universe to failure and a scratch, or else there would be a paradox. Even though ectobiology in Universe B works the way it is supposed to, Jade and Jake's correspondence causes the same problem the ectobiology glitch would. Jake can't exist if the B1's don't fail to finish making a Universe and scratch their session, and if he doesn't exist he can't talk to Jade. Yes, it does cause the same problem, but Jade and Jake's case didn't summon Lord English, so if it is a glitch, it's not the same one. Actually that glitch doesn't summon Lord English. It's being unfortunate enough to have Doc Scratch as your first Guardian that does that. The glitch is more of a marker. In any case, my main point was that while that glitch occurring in LE's home universe would be a great reason for that to be his calling card and it'd be an awesome callback, something more like Jake and Jade interacting between iterations of the universe would serve the same purpose, even if it would be less thematically awesome and just generally less cool. If you want to go more into it, though, I see things this way: it's ultimately predestined if a session scratches or not, so communications between the two sessions would not be problematic as the scratch is inevitable anyway. On the other hand, it's Skaia's job to set up the game and send out the meteors. If the ectobiology occurs in the post-scratch session, then Skaia is doing it's job wrong, hence, a glitch. Actually, both situations would be the same in this time line, due to Lord English being Already Here. By that I mean, on a microlevel its the glitch that makes it so the A1 trolls never had a chance, but on a macro level, A1 must beget A2 which must beget B1 which must beget B2 which must beget C so that the demon spawned from C can terrorize A2 and B1/B2 by proxy, so the glitch is just what facilitates what must be. The tool that gets the motor running, I guess. So Skaia's not exactly doing its job wrong there. In general I don't think a scratch would necessarily be predestined. In this particular case, though? Oh hell yeah. But again, that's due to English's all-consuming time loop. While everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive, it doesn't confirm beyond a doubt that's what she played, and there isn't even anything that suggests Muse!Calliope's session was pre-scratch and Caliborn's was post, and in fact there are quite a few things that make it incredibly unlikely. I mean, the idea that our cherubs are post-scratch was a misstatement of someone who, with all due respect, got just about everything they remembered about the comic wrong. You're right, nothing in the comic tells us with 100% certainty that Muse!Calliope's session was a dead session, but you said it yourself, "everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive" and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. So while the possibility exists that it wasn't a dead session, it's pretty darn likely that it was. As for evidence of her being pre-scratch, well, I have three reasons for thinking that: First of all, there's what I already mentioned about Caliborn being less able to do the scratch because of the events of the masterpiece. Secondly, Caliborn has no reason to scratch his session; why would he want to set things up so that his sister could potentially gain power and take him down? And finally, Caliborn won his session. You don't scratch a winning session; it might not even be possible. I admit that it's far less of a certainty, heck it's not even certain there was a scratch in the first place, but it is more likely than her being post-scratch. And even if you don't accept all that, there's still nothing making it any less likely for her to be pre-scratch than post-scratch. I do not see how any of that has anything to do with Caliborn being post-scratch. Caliborn deciding not to or not being able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so does not make him post-scratch. And I honestly have no idea why anyone would think that was the case. The two ideas are completely unrelated. All I'm saying is that if any ectobiology did occur in Universe C, the only place it could possibly happen is C2, because we've seen with our own eyes that C1 is out. And like I said, while everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is very suggestive, unlike Caliborn's session, we don't see it for ourselves. Since when did we "[see] with our own eyes that [Caliborn's session] is out?" We barely got to see Caliborn's session at all! (Also you shouldn't really be calling Caliborn's session C1 since, as I've already mentioned, that's not necessarily the case). Yes it is the case unless you can point me to some actual proof. And while we didn't see as much of Caliborn's session as we saw of, say, B1 and B2, we still saw a hell of a lot more of it than we did of Calliope's hypothetical Dead Session. By which I mean, we actually saw things from his session at all. If they aren't shown doing it, or even saying they're doing it, then there's no reason for us to think that they did it. So by your logic, if you see someone being invited to a to a party, and the next time you see them they are already at the party, then they must have teleported in since you didn't notice them enter through the door? I mean when you have the options of "they did it off camera" and "it's a horrible glitch in spacetime that doesn't affect a single thing in the story" then can you really blame me for assuming the former? When this story frequently features horrible glitches in space time that can affect more than a single thing in the story (*cough* paradox *cough* doomed time line *cough*) my answer is yes. Seriously if it's been set up that horrible things can happen when people forget to do stuff like that, then you can not just forget about that and expect us to not wonder about it. In real life? Yes it would be weird to wear garlic around your neck and carry a stake in case of vampires. In Dracula, or really any story with vampires? Not so much. After all, trying to do something as innocuous as retrieve Rose's journal got Dave nothing but a dead Dave for his trouble. I mean seriously, that frequently happens in this web comic. All the time.That would be coming up with a conclusion and then trying to come up with evidence to support it. And said evidence is still insufficient anyway. Er no? This evidence is how (part of) I came to my conclusion in the first place, not the other way around. What I quoted has you starting with Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch, and saying that means there must have been a way for her to scratch. (Quote: Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen,) That's completely backwards. Yes. For one, there's a possibility that the Caliborn that watched the masterpiece and the Caliborn in it are not the same, due to masterpiece Caliborn being surprised by the kids' ambush. If that's the case, the one watching could've scratched out of frustration after having waited for a battle that would never come. For another, the B2 kids could've found a way to scratch. If Rose was fighting with a Zilly weapon, she could've taken that with her into the Juju and left Echidna's Quills behind for somebody to use. Or they could've used Dirk's sword, which Bro already proved could affect the scratch construct. Or hell, another Recton John could've shown up to help. None of this is in any way confirmed to have actually happened, but it is at least possible, however unlikely. So you're telling me these are more likely to be true than the possible explanations I gave for Calliope doing it? Considering there's no proof at all that it's even possible and I see no way the story would benefit from this being the case and we know that a player from a different world or even a non-player can scratch a construct if they just have a sharp enough tool thanks to Bro and John....yes. By contrast, all evidence points to, if Muse!Calliope played a Dead Session, both her only having a Space player's planet and thus no scratch construct, that there is no way to scratch without one, and her having no time to both scratch and get killed by Echidna and thereby leave a ghost behind. There is also absolutely nothing to suggest she is pre-scratch and our cherubs are post. There are, in fact, things that suggest the exact opposite, like the cherubs' aforementioned lack of a First Guardian. Ok, let's pick apart this "evidence" bit by bit: I'll concede that Caliborn being a time player may be the one bit of evidence that supports your theory that he was first, but that said, he didn't get a special time player planet, he got Earth, just like Calliope did. Yes, Earth got dragged into the black hole, but Hussie tells Caliborn that everything on his planet has to be unlocked, including its name of Something and Something (this is eventually proven out when Caliborn reveals the name behind the scrambled letters to be LOCAM, or Land of Colors and Mayhem) a nd that on its travel to the Medium, Yaldabaoth became nestled in its core. So I think it's safe to say that it's not normal old earth anymore after its entry. And if you can add the goddamned self-proclaimed Lord of All Monsters to the center of a planet, a scratch construct would be relatively easy by comparison. The lack of time to be killed by Echidna after performing the scratch is a much smaller obstacle to overcome than having your soul trapped in a puppet before you can start the scratch (which I've been arguing heavily already). I did point out other ways Caliborn's session could be scratched besides masterpiece!Caliborn doing it himself. And again, even if Caliborn didn't scratch, that doesn't automatically make Muse!Calliope pre-scratch. I honestly don't know why anyone would think it would.
The fact that there is nothing to suggest Calliope came first is a meaningless assertion when there is also nothing to suggest Caliborn came first. How about what I keep mentioning how as far as the comic has told us you can't scratch without a scratch construct, which only shows up on Time players' planets? How about the fact that there would be no set up for it at all and it would serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the given explanation (a doomed time line) wouldn't? How about the fact that Hussie tells Caliborn that the planet was moved before the cherubs settled on it but doesn't so much as utter the tiniest suggestion that it was scratched before then? How about the fact that Muse!Calliope herself lays out her killing her brother, her entering the Medium and being killed by Echidna, but never mentions scratching. At all. When there is no conceivable reason for her not to. How about the fact that the comic, if it wanted to do that, would have to explain how that even works with cherubs, as S***b can't do the same switch around that it does with humans and trolls? How about the fact that Aranea never so much as mentions the possibility, even when she knew almost everything else about the cherubs' session? As I mentioned earlier but will elaborate more on now, the first guardian is made by a session for both pre- and post-scratch. If a dead session is a special case where one isn't created, then this would also be true both pre- and post-scratch. And if this is true and on the off chance Calliope didn't have a dead session, then she would have a first guardian and Caliborn wouldn't regardless of which came first. That if is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting there. There has been absolutely nothing that suggests that Dead Sessions are a special case and don't give out First Guardians. So a person couldn't rely on that possibility as evidence. See, that's the thing. Open ended ≠ loose ends and plotholes. An open ending can have those things, but they are not one and the same. You can have an open ending while still tying all the loose ends up. And that's exactly what Problem Sleuth does. You don't know exactly what's going to be up next for the Sleuths, but you do know they escaped their office, what happened with all the other characters, the state of the realm of the dead, the four kingdoms, the doll house, hell, etc. And before that, all the disparate elements that seemingly had no purpose eventually converged onto the boss battle and had some kind of reason to be there. The same cannot be said for Homestuck as it is right now. Hell, Homestuck is LESS open ended, because we have a pretty good idea of what happens to the kids next. The problem is, not only do we not know why, but there were a lot of plot threads that were unceremoniously dropped in the last bit of the story for no apparent reason. What you say is entirely true about Homestuck as a whole, but what happens to Earth C is not one of these loose ends or plot holes. It is a loose end, as we don't know how it happened. Did it fall to pieces without the kids because they got trapped in a Juju and/or in the future? Was it wiped out by one of English's agents or English himself and that's why the kids threw all reason to the wind and confronted him in the masterpiece? Were the masterpiece kids even the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C? If not, what happened to the Earth C kids? Why didn't the save the planet? Are all the inhabitants of earth dead? Or did they leave? In either case, why did this happen, and if they left, where did they go and why did they abandon the planet? As long as there at least this many questions about what happened there, it's incontrovertibly a loose end.
|
|
|
Post by keybounce on Oct 13, 2017 15:14:26 GMT
So I just wanted to toss out a quick "Am I remembering this correctly" after this page of ... scratch that.
Do I have this correct:
1. A2 had the ectobiology of the two troll sessions; A1, despite coming "first", never actually made the children for A2. 2. Jack, Dog-Jack, was made in B1, and terrorized what A2 by using the B1 scratch as an escape mechanism. 3. Lord English was made in C, send out to the farthest ring, where an ectobiology session plus skaia meteors sent him to B1. 4. From B1, plus his agents, plus his guardian (which in some sense was him???), he terrorized B1 and B2 throughout it's timeline, and ultimately into the farthest ring.
So C affects both B's, and B1 affects A2, and A2 affects A1, and even the "across scratch communication that identifies a scratch" is seen when Rufio (A1) is a spirit guide for Tavros (A2).
So all three of these are backwards, but Lord English never effects A; only his agent Doc Scratch does.
...
Assuming I have that all right, how in skaia did Doc Scratch get to A? For that matter, how do you go from Caliborn trapped in a puppet, said puppet being seen all over B, into Doc Scratch?
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 13, 2017 18:30:47 GMT
Of course not, that'd be absurd! I'm saying the things that could've prevented Caliborn from scratching his session make it more likely that his session is post-scratch. Why? That doesn't seem much less absurd.Because in one case your soul is trapped in a puppet, and in the in the other you have to get somewhere quickly. Which one is the bigger obstacle to overcome? But wouldn't the pre-scratch session also produce a first guardian? Or alternatively the post scratch session also not produce one if dead sessions are a special case. I see no reason why post- would get one but not pre-. In this particular case the pre-scratch session not getting a First Guardian technically makes sense, as those things are assigned to a particular planet, and the planet that the cherubs live on was already assigned a First Guardian in the form of GCAT. But so far as we've seen, post-scratch sessions always get new FGs. So the cherubs' planet, in all likelihood, would get a new one post-scratch. If not, via some exception to the rule, that exception needs to be explained to us, because it'd be contrary to everything we've seen so far. Except first guardians are assigned to a particular planet because of the session they spawn from. Add another first guardian producing session and you add another first guardian. There's nothing to support that Dead Sessions don't issue First Guardians, as that would've come up when Aranea was telling us literally everything else about them. But it didn't come up there, or anywhere else. Since when did we "[see] with our own eyes that [Caliborn's session] is out?" We barely got to see Caliborn's session at all! (Also you shouldn't really be calling Caliborn's session C1 since, as I've already mentioned, that's not necessarily the case). Yes it is the case unless you can point me to some actual proof. And while we didn't see as much of Caliborn's session as we saw of, say, B1 and B2, we still saw a hell of a lot more of it than we did of Calliope's hypothetical Dead Session. By which I mean, we actually saw things from his session at all. So let me get this straight: you're saying what we've seen of Caliborn's session is enough evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce ectobiology, yet at the same time it contains a lack of evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce a first guardian? I fail to see how one is any more likely than the other. Yes, it does cause the same problem, but Jade and Jake's case didn't summon Lord English, so if it is a glitch, it's not the same one. Actually that glitch doesn't summon Lord English. It's being unfortunate enough to have Doc Scratch as your first Guardian that does that. The glitch is more of a marker. Let me put the full quote from Doc scratch that I posted part of earlier, the relevant part bolded: If you want to go more into it, though, I see things this way: it's ultimately predestined if a session scratches or not, so communications between the two sessions would not be problematic as the scratch is inevitable anyway. On the other hand, it's Skaia's job to set up the game and send out the meteors. If the ectobiology occurs in the post-scratch session, then Skaia is doing it's job wrong, hence, a glitch. Actually, both situations would be the same in this time line, due to Lord English being Already Here. By that I mean, on a microlevel its the glitch that makes it so the A1 trolls never had a chance, but on a macro level, A1 must beget A2 which must beget B1 which must beget B2 which must beget C so that the demon spawned from C can terrorize A2 and B1/B2 by proxy, so the glitch is just what facilitates what must be. The tool that gets the motor running, I guess. So Skaia's not exactly doing its job wrong there. It is not Skaia's job to ensure the existence of Lord English, but rather, Lord English has hijacked the system to ensure his existence, including by glitching the system. You're right, nothing in the comic tells us with 100% certainty that Muse!Calliope's session was a dead session, but you said it yourself, "everything Muse!Calliope says about a Dead Session is highly suggestive" and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. So while the possibility exists that it wasn't a dead session, it's pretty darn likely that it was. As for evidence of her being pre-scratch, well, I have three reasons for thinking that: First of all, there's what I already mentioned about Caliborn being less able to do the scratch because of the events of the masterpiece. Secondly, Caliborn has no reason to scratch his session; why would he want to set things up so that his sister could potentially gain power and take him down? And finally, Caliborn won his session. You don't scratch a winning session; it might not even be possible. I admit that it's far less of a certainty, heck it's not even certain there was a scratch in the first place, but it is more likely than her being post-scratch. And even if you don't accept all that, there's still nothing making it any less likely for her to be pre-scratch than post-scratch. I do not see how any of that has anything to do with Caliborn being post-scratch. Caliborn deciding not to or not being able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so does not make him post-scratch. And I honestly have no idea why anyone would think that was the case. The two ideas are completely unrelated. If Caliborn decided not to or wasn't able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so, then that means he didn't complete the scratch. If he didn't complete the scratch and a scratch happened, then Calliope must have done the scratch, and if Calliope did the scratch, then Caliborn is post-scratch. You also failed to address the fact that Caliborn's session was won, and you might not be able to scratch a winning session (granted the possibility exists, but I'm arguing he was more likely post-scratch, not that it is without a doubt true). So by your logic, if you see someone being invited to a to a party, and the next time you see them they are already at the party, then they must have teleported in since you didn't notice them enter through the door? I mean when you have the options of "they did it off camera" and "it's a horrible glitch in spacetime that doesn't affect a single thing in the story" then can you really blame me for assuming the former? When this story frequently features horrible glitches in space time that can affect more than a single thing in the story (*cough* paradox *cough* doomed time line *cough*) my answer is yes. Seriously if it's been set up that horrible things can happen when people forget to do stuff like that, then you can not just forget about that and expect us to not wonder about it. In real life? Yes it would be weird to wear garlic around your neck and carry a stake in case of vampires. In Dracula, or really any story with vampires? Not so much. After all, trying to do something as innocuous as retrieve Rose's journal got Dave nothing but a dead Dave for his trouble. I mean seriously, that frequently happens in this web comic. All the time.Yes, this sort of thing happens, but we know it happens and see the effects. In the case where there's no indication of such a paradox, and there exists an easy, common sense explanation for how things happened an a way that doesn't cause a paradox, then that easy explanation is still the more likely option. Er no? This evidence is how (part of) I came to my conclusion in the first place, not the other way around. What I quoted has you starting with Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch, and saying that means there must have been a way for her to scratch. (Quote: Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen,) That's completely backwards. I said things that way as an implied comparison: If we assume Calliope scratched the session, then it's easy to come up with ways it might have happened, but if we assume Caliborn scratched the session, then it comparatively much harder to come up with an explanation. As such, the one that's easier to explain away is the more likely option. So you're telling me these are more likely to be true than the possible explanations I gave for Calliope doing it? Considering there's no proof at all that it's even possible and I see no way the story would benefit from this being the case and we know that a player from a different world or even a non-player can scratch a construct if they just have a sharp enough tool thanks to Bro and John....yes. I fail to see how that would make it more likely. Ok, let's pick apart this "evidence" bit by bit: I'll concede that Caliborn being a time player may be the one bit of evidence that supports your theory that he was first, but that said, he didn't get a special time player planet, he got Earth, just like Calliope did. Yes, Earth got dragged into the black hole, but Hussie tells Caliborn that everything on his planet has to be unlocked, including its name of Something and Something (this is eventually proven out when Caliborn reveals the name behind the scrambled letters to be LOCAM, or Land of Colors and Mayhem) a nd that on its travel to the Medium, Yaldabaoth became nestled in its core. So I think it's safe to say that it's not normal old earth anymore after its entry. And if you can add the goddamned self-proclaimed Lord of All Monsters to the center of a planet, a scratch construct would be relatively easy by comparison. Well, fair enough. I'll give you this one. I still think all other evidence implies otherwise, though. The lack of time to be killed by Echidna after performing the scratch is a much smaller obstacle to overcome than having your soul trapped in a puppet before you can start the scratch (which I've been arguing heavily already). I did point out other ways Caliborn's session could be scratched besides masterpiece!Caliborn doing it himself. And again, even if Caliborn didn't scratch, that doesn't automatically make Muse!Calliope pre-scratch. I honestly don't know why anyone would think it would....Except that if one of them scratched and it wasn't Caliborn then it would have to be Calliope... The fact that there is nothing to suggest Calliope came first is a meaningless assertion when there is also nothing to suggest Caliborn came first. How about what I keep mentioning how as far as the comic has told us you can't scratch without a scratch construct, which only shows up on Time players' planets? Fair enough, I already conceded this one. How about the fact that there would be no set up for it at all and it would serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the given explanation (a doomed time line) wouldn't? How about the fact that Hussie tells Caliborn that the planet was moved before the cherubs settled on it but doesn't so much as utter the tiniest suggestion that it was scratched before then? How about the fact that Muse!Calliope herself lays out her killing her brother, her entering the Medium and being killed by Echidna, but never mentions scratching. At all. When there is no conceivable reason for her not to. <line addessed later> How about the fact that Aranea never so much as mentions the possibility, even when she knew almost everything else about the cherubs' session? You say a bunch of places where the comic never mentions that Calliope's session is pre-scratch or Caliborn's post-scratch, but, I mean, it never says anything to imply the other way around either, and Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of a doomed time line wouldn't. If anything this is evidence against there being a scratch at all. How about the fact that the comic, if it wanted to do that, would have to explain how that even works with cherubs, as S***b can't do the same switch around that it does with humans and trolls? Wouldn't Caliborn coming first still have these same exact problems, though? Once again you're making a great case for there not being a scratch, but failing to say why Caliborn would have come first if there was one. As I mentioned earlier but will elaborate more on now, the first guardian is made by a session for both pre- and post-scratch. If a dead session is a special case where one isn't created, then this would also be true both pre- and post-scratch. And if this is true and on the off chance Calliope didn't have a dead session, then she would have a first guardian and Caliborn wouldn't regardless of which came first. That if is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting there. There has been absolutely nothing that suggests that Dead Sessions are a special case and don't give out First Guardians. So a person couldn't rely on that possibility as evidence. Except I'm not relying of the if to be true at all; I cover the case where it's not in my very first sentence. If you cannot accept the possibility of that if being true, that that initial sentence is all that matters: both the pre- and post-scratch session would create a first guardian. What you say is entirely true about Homestuck as a whole, but what happens to Earth C is not one of these loose ends or plot holes. It is a loose end, as we don't know how it happened. Did it fall to pieces without the kids because they got trapped in a Juju and/or in the future? Was it wiped out by one of English's agents or English himself and that's why the kids threw all reason to the wind and confronted him in the masterpiece? Were the masterpiece kids even the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C? If not, what happened to the Earth C kids? Why didn't the save the planet? Are all the inhabitants of earth dead? Or did they leave? In either case, why did this happen, and if they left, where did they go and why did they abandon the planet? As long as there at least this many questions about what happened there, it's incontrovertibly a loose end. I think the fact that I'm arguing otherwise proves that at the very least it's not incontrovertible. Regardless, I say it's not a loose end because there are many possible scenarios that could be true, and it doesn't matter which one happened. Whether the masterpiece kids were the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C is a loose end because it makes a difference to the story: it changes who the story showed us in the masterpiece. But if they were different than the ones in Earth C, then the fate of the ones on Earth C doesn't matter to the story (with the exception of potential aborted character arcs or foreshadowing) so it's not a lose end.
So I just wanted to toss out a quick "Am I remembering this correctly" after this page of ... scratch that. Do I have this correct: 1. A2 had the ectobiology of the two troll sessions; A1, despite coming "first", never actually made the children for A2. 2. Jack, Dog-Jack, was made in B1, and terrorized what A2 by using the B1 scratch as an escape mechanism. 3. Lord English was made in C, send out to the farthest ring, where an ectobiology session plus skaia meteors sent him to B1. 4. From B1, plus his agents, plus his guardian (which in some sense was him???), he terrorized B1 and B2 throughout it's timeline, and ultimately into the farthest ring. So C affects both B's, and B1 affects A2, and A2 affects A1, and even the "across scratch communication that identifies a scratch" is seen when Rufio (A1) is a spirit guide for Tavros (A2). So all three of these are backwards, but Lord English never effects A; only his agent Doc Scratch does. ... Assuming I have that all right, how in skaia did Doc Scratch get to A? For that matter, how do you go from Caliborn trapped in a puppet, said puppet being seen all over B, into Doc Scratch? 1. True 2. Sort of true. Though the characters believe it to be the case at first, the scratch isn't what sends Jack to A2; he does it through the an exile station. 3. False. The first part is true, Lord English was made in C, send out to the farthest ring, but from there you have it wrong. Gamzee summons Lil' Cal (containing Lord English's spirit) into Dave's dreams, where it goes through a complex series of events that I spelled out in my post here to be prototyped for Doc Scratch, whom Lord English emerges from into A2. He never shows up in B1 except as contained within Lil' Cal. 4. False. What we see of him doing any deliberate involvement, is done in A2 and later the furthest ring. He has no direct involvement in universe B, though there are plenty of indirect effects and he does send in the Condesce. The rest can be dismissed due to being based on a false assumptions in 3 and 4. Also the Rufio Tavros comes up with is a fake representation of Tavros's self-conficence. I doubt there's any actual connection there to A1 Rufioh.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 13, 2017 23:55:17 GMT
Why? That doesn't seem much less absurd.Because in one case your soul is trapped in a puppet, and in the in the other you have to get somewhere quickly. Which one is the bigger obstacle to overcome? ......I'll address this later in this post. In this particular case the pre-scratch session not getting a First Guardian technically makes sense, as those things are assigned to a particular planet, and the planet that the cherubs live on was already assigned a First Guardian in the form of GCAT. But so far as we've seen, post-scratch sessions always get new FGs. So the cherubs' planet, in all likelihood, would get a new one post-scratch. If not, via some exception to the rule, that exception needs to be explained to us, because it'd be contrary to everything we've seen so far. Except first guardians are assigned to a particular planet because of the session they spawn from. Add another first guardian producing session and you add another first guardian. Comic never says anything about sessions. On this page, a First Guardian is described thusly: And the planet in question already had such an entity assigned to protect it when the cherubs got there. There's nothing to support that Dead Sessions don't issue First Guardians, as that would've come up when Aranea was telling us literally everything else about them. But it didn't come up there, or anywhere else. Yes it is the case unless you can point me to some actual proof. And while we didn't see as much of Caliborn's session as we saw of, say, B1 and B2, we still saw a hell of a lot more of it than we did of Calliope's hypothetical Dead Session. By which I mean, we actually saw things from his session at all. So let me get this straight: you're saying what we've seen of Caliborn's session is enough evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce ectobiology, yet at the same time it contains a lack of evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce a first guardian? I fail to see how one is any more likely than the other. For one, because Skaias are needed for ectobiology meteor shenanigans, and Dead Sessions do not have them. For two, it's never explained how S***b can use the cherubs' biology to perform the meteor switch around the same way it does with the trolls and humans. For three, as I've said, this planet was already assigned a First Guardian. For four, neither Hussie nor Aranea so much as hint that First Guardians are not part of the package if the session is Dead. Actually that glitch doesn't summon Lord English. It's being unfortunate enough to have Doc Scratch as your first Guardian that does that. The glitch is more of a marker. Let me put the full quote from Doc scratch that I posted part of earlier, the relevant part bolded: This doesn't contradict what I said. No matter how Scratch phrases it, the glitch on its own doesn't actually do anything to get LE into the Universe. Actually, both situations would be the same in this time line, due to Lord English being Already Here. By that I mean, on a microlevel its the glitch that makes it so the A1 trolls never had a chance, but on a macro level, A1 must beget A2 which must beget B1 which must beget B2 which must beget C so that the demon spawned from C can terrorize A2 and B1/B2 by proxy, so the glitch is just what facilitates what must be. The tool that gets the motor running, I guess. So Skaia's not exactly doing its job wrong there. It is not Skaia's job to ensure the existence of Lord English, but rather, Lord English has hijacked the system to ensure his existence, including by glitching the system. Skaia's (or really Paradox Space's, Skaia itself isn't involved in much) job is to prevent paradoxes, and English just takes advantage of that, which is why he's nigh impossible to get rid of. I don't see that as a glitch so much as it is an exploitation of rules, quirks and loopholes. And there's a difference between a glitch and an exploitation of poorly constructed rules. I do not see how any of that has anything to do with Caliborn being post-scratch. Caliborn deciding not to or not being able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so does not make him post-scratch. And I honestly have no idea why anyone would think that was the case. The two ideas are completely unrelated. If Caliborn decided not to or wasn't able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so, then that means he didn't complete the scratch. If he didn't complete the scratch and a scratch happened, then Calliope must have done the scratch, and if Calliope did the scratch, then Caliborn is post-scratch. Okay one, we don't know that a scratch happened at all and I'm not arguing that it did. For two, if a scratch happened and Caliborn didn't do it, that doesn't automatically mean said scratch happened in a hypothetical pre-scratch session. If Caliborn is from C1 (and every single thing in the comic points to that being the case) that does not change, whether or not he scratches his session. You also failed to address the fact that Caliborn's session was won, and you might not be able to scratch a winning session (granted the possibility exists, but I'm arguing he was more likely post-scratch, not that it is without a doubt true). I didn't see a point in addressing something there's no evidence for. When this story frequently features horrible glitches in space time that can affect more than a single thing in the story (*cough* paradox *cough* doomed time line *cough*) my answer is yes. Seriously if it's been set up that horrible things can happen when people forget to do stuff like that, then you can not just forget about that and expect us to not wonder about it. In real life? Yes it would be weird to wear garlic around your neck and carry a stake in case of vampires. In Dracula, or really any story with vampires? Not so much. After all, trying to do something as innocuous as retrieve Rose's journal got Dave nothing but a dead Dave for his trouble. I mean seriously, that frequently happens in this web comic. All the time.Yes, this sort of thing happens, but we know it happens and see the effects. In the case where there's no indication of such a paradox, and there exists an easy, common sense explanation for how things happened an a way that doesn't cause a paradox, then that easy explanation is still the more likely option. If you set up a rule in a story you write and then have someone seemingly break that rule without the previously established consequences for doing so occurring, either you've failed to make it clear that they didn't actually break that rule or you've created an inconsistency. Either way it's a mistake. It's not my job to assume things to fill in the plotholes for Hussie. If I wanted to do that I'd write my own damn comic. What I quoted has you starting with Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch, and saying that means there must have been a way for her to scratch. (Quote: Well, I mean, if we assume Calliope scratched the session, then one of those explanations had to happen,) That's completely backwards. I said things that way as an implied comparison: If we assume Calliope scratched the session, then it's easy to come up with ways it might have happened, Okay. Tell me how she scratches without a scratch construct. Without using the word if. but if we assume Caliborn scratched the session, then it comparatively much harder to come up with an explanation. As such, the one that's easier to explain away is the more likely option. I gave you several explanations, all of which, while not particularly likely, are still more likely than Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch and scratching her session, given that how scratches have been shown to work throughout the rest of the comic has demonstrated why that would be impossible for her to do. Considering there's no proof at all that it's even possible and I see no way the story would benefit from this being the case and we know that a player from a different world or even a non-player can scratch a construct if they just have a sharp enough tool thanks to Bro and John....yes. I fail to see how that would make it more likely. You fail to see how no proof and no way for something to be possible makes it less likely to happen than something the comic has shown us can in fact be done? I did point out other ways Caliborn's session could be scratched besides masterpiece!Caliborn doing it himself. And again, even if Caliborn didn't scratch, that doesn't automatically make Muse!Calliope pre-scratch. I honestly don't know why anyone would think it would....Except that if one of them scratched and it wasn't Caliborn then it would have to be Calliope... 1) You believe Musie!Calliope played a Dead Session. 2) A Space player could not scratch a Dead Session. So if Caliborn didn't scratch and someone did, it couldn't have been Muse!Calliope in her Dead Session. Not to mention that even without a Space player not being able to scratch a Dead Session, that's an incredible leap in logic. I'm not arguing that a scratch definitely happened and I don't know anyone who is, so Caliborn not scratching doesn't mean someone else would've had to. And even if someone did have to, it could've just been someone other than Caliborn that scratched his session, the way John scratched the B1 session even though LOHAC wasn't his planet and he wasn't a Time player. How about the fact that there would be no set up for it at all and it would serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the given explanation (a doomed time line) wouldn't? How about the fact that Hussie tells Caliborn that the planet was moved before the cherubs settled on it but doesn't so much as utter the tiniest suggestion that it was scratched before then? How about the fact that Muse!Calliope herself lays out her killing her brother, her entering the Medium and being killed by Echidna, but never mentions scratching. At all. When there is no conceivable reason for her not to. <line addessed later> How about the fact that Aranea never so much as mentions the possibility, even when she knew almost everything else about the cherubs' session? You say a bunch of places where the comic never mentions that Calliope's session is pre-scratch or Caliborn's post-scratch, but, I mean, it never says anything to imply the other way around either, and Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of a doomed time line wouldn't. Please, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the story doesn't change if Caliborn's time line is a doomed one. Please don't, because there's shit I need to do, and if I'm reading you right I'll be laughing too long and too hard to ever get around to it. How about the fact that the comic, if it wanted to do that, would have to explain how that even works with cherubs, as S***b can't do the same switch around that it does with humans and trolls? Wouldn't Caliborn coming first still have these same exact problems, though? Once again you're making a great case for there not being a scratch, but failing to say why Caliborn would have come first if there was one. For one, no, not if he didn't scratch. If he doesn't scratch it doesn't come up. For another I've already given you reasons why Muse!Calliope couldn't have scratched even if she was from C1. And I didn't even have to, because if you want to assert that Caliborn is post-scratch, the burden of proof is on you. It is a loose end, as we don't know how it happened. Did it fall to pieces without the kids because they got trapped in a Juju and/or in the future? Was it wiped out by one of English's agents or English himself and that's why the kids threw all reason to the wind and confronted him in the masterpiece? Were the masterpiece kids even the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C? If not, what happened to the Earth C kids? Why didn't the save the planet? Are all the inhabitants of earth dead? Or did they leave? In either case, why did this happen, and if they left, where did they go and why did they abandon the planet? As long as there at least this many questions about what happened there, it's incontrovertibly a loose end. Regardless, I say it's not a loose end because there are many possible scenarios that could be true, and it doesn't matter which one happened. Whether the masterpiece kids were the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C is a loose end because it makes a difference to the story: it changes who the story showed us in the masterpiece. But if they were different than the ones in Earth C, then the fate of the ones on Earth C doesn't matter to the story (with the exception of potential aborted character arcs or foreshadowing) so it's not a lose end. Are you arguing that if the kids in the masterpiece aren't the same kids who placed Earth C they don't matter? And if they are they do? If so, then by your own logic, isn't it true you can't argue that they're irrelevant unless it's confirmed they're not the same kids?
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 14, 2017 5:56:05 GMT
Except first guardians are assigned to a particular planet because of the session they spawn from. Add another first guardian producing session and you add another first guardian. Comic never says anything about sessions. On this page, a First Guardian is described thusly: And the planet in question already had such an entity assigned to protect it when the cherubs got there. Except that both planets we've seen have had more than one first guardian; sure they're pre- and post-scratch, but that quote says every planet, not every iteration of a planet. And it's not like having multiple first guardians per planet contradicts that quote anyway; it doesn't say every planet has exclusively one first guardian. And for that matter, it does say something about sessions: it says they're there to facilitate the planet's ultimate purpose, the ultimate purpose being universal reproduction, aka the sessions. Actually this quote could act as evidence for the idea that dead sessions don't produce a first guardian: Since a dead session does not create a universe, it does not serve the planet's "ultimate purpose," and thus does not have need of a first guardian to guide it to that purpose. So let me get this straight: you're saying what we've seen of Caliborn's session is enough evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce ectobiology, yet at the same time it contains a lack of evidence to indicate that it couldn't produce a first guardian? I fail to see how one is any more likely than the other. For one, because Skaias are needed for ectobiology meteor shenanigans, and Dead Sessions do not have them. Well, according to your logic of "dead sessions are exactly like regular sessions unless otherwise stated in the comic" then we have no reason to believe dead sessions don't still have the portals. Besides, first guardians also arrive into the universe via meteor. For two, it's never explained how S***b can use the cherubs' biology to perform the meteor switch around the same way it does with the trolls and humans. true, but this is irrelevant to the argument of if ectobiology is possible in a dead session. For three, as I've said, this planet was already assigned a First Guardian. Already addressed above. For four, neither Hussie nor Aranea so much as hint that First Guardians are not part of the package if the session is Dead. They never hint that ectobiology is not part of the package if the session is Dead either. Let me put the full quote from Doc scratch that I posted part of earlier, the relevant part bolded: This doesn't contradict what I said. No matter how Scratch phrases it, the glitch on its own doesn't actually do anything to get LE into the Universe. The quote explicitly says that the glitch is how he prepares his arrival into the universe; how are you not getting that?! It is not Skaia's job to ensure the existence of Lord English, but rather, Lord English has hijacked the system to ensure his existence, including by glitching the system. Skaia's (or really Paradox Space's, Skaia itself isn't involved in much) job is to prevent paradoxes, and English just takes advantage of that, which is why he's nigh impossible to get rid of. I don't see that as a glitch so much as it is an exploitation of rules, quirks and loopholes. And there's a difference between a glitch and an exploitation of poorly constructed rules. It's Paradox Space's "job" to prevent paradoxes; it's Skaia's "job" to run the session. Maybe instead of calling it Skaia's job, I should have said something more like "how the game works." Regardless, the ectobiology happening post-scratch if the game not running like it should, but communication between pre- and post-scratch has nothing to do with how the game works, thus why the former is a glitch and the latter isn't. If Caliborn decided not to or wasn't able to scratch when given the opportunity to do so, then that means he didn't complete the scratch. If he didn't complete the scratch and a scratch happened, then Calliope must have done the scratch, and if Calliope did the scratch, then Caliborn is post-scratch. Okay one, we don't know that a scratch happened at all and I'm not arguing that it did. For two, if a scratch happened and Caliborn didn't do it, that doesn't automatically mean said scratch happened in a hypothetical pre-scratch session. If Caliborn is from C1 (and every single thing in the comic points to that being the case) that does not change, whether or not he scratches his session. If there was no scratch then the concept of who came "first" is meaningless, hence why I've been framing things within the context of a scratch. So with that said, assuming there was a scratch and Caliborn came first, then Caliborn's session must have been scratched, so if Caliborn didn't scratch his session then Calliope did. You also failed to address the fact that Caliborn's session was won, and you might not be able to scratch a winning session (granted the possibility exists, but I'm arguing he was more likely post-scratch, not that it is without a doubt true). I didn't see a point in addressing something there's no evidence for. In a normal session, when the game is won, the medium is transformed in a way such that it seems that a scratch is no longer possible. While it's possible a dead session does not change such that a scratch is no longer possible, aren't you the one who's arguing dead sessions are like normal sessions unless otherwise stated? Yes, this sort of thing happens, but we know it happens and see the effects. In the case where there's no indication of such a paradox, and there exists an easy, common sense explanation for how things happened an a way that doesn't cause a paradox, then that easy explanation is still the more likely option. If you set up a rule in a story you write and then have someone seemingly break that rule without the previously established consequences for doing so occurring, either you've failed to make it clear that they didn't actually break that rule or you've created an inconsistency. Either way it's a mistake. It's not my job to assume things to fill in the plotholes for Hussie. If I wanted to do that I'd write my own damn comic. Except that saying they didn't send the weapons back is also making an assumption. The only reason you're finding an inconsistency is because you're assuming they didn't do what was said they would do, which is a rather absurd assumption to make. I said things that way as an implied comparison: If we assume Calliope scratched the session, then it's easy to come up with ways it might have happened, Okay. Tell me how she scratches without a scratch construct. Without using the word if. Well the idea of her potentially not having a scratch construct because of being a space player was the one piece of evidence I already conceded to, but that was not what I was aguing against in what you're referring to here. You had argued that she was unlikely to have done the scratch because she would have to run back to Echidna's lair to be killed before the scratch happened, so I countered by stating many possible ways she could have solved or circumvented this problem, whereas Caliborn being trapped in a puppet was a much harder obstacle to overcome. I fail to see how that would make it more likely. You fail to see how no proof and no way for something to be possible makes it less likely to happen than something the comic has shown us can in fact be done? Sure, no proof against an alternative that also has no proof, and no way for something to be possible except the many valid was I already mentioned for it to be possible. ...Except that if one of them scratched and it wasn't Caliborn then it would have to be Calliope... 1) You believe Musie!Calliope played a Dead Session. 2) A Space player could not scratch a Dead Session. So if Caliborn didn't scratch and someone did, it couldn't have been Muse!Calliope in her Dead Session. Not to mention that even without a Space player not being able to scratch a Dead Session, that's an incredible leap in logic. I'm not arguing that a scratch definitely happened and I don't know anyone who is, so Caliborn not scratching doesn't mean someone else would've had to. And even if someone did have to, it could've just been someone other than Caliborn that scratched his session, the way John scratched the B1 session even though LOHAC wasn't his planet and he wasn't a Time player. As already mentioned, if Caliborn came first, then there has to be a concept of coming first, and thus a scratch must have happened. And a scratch having happened combined with Caliborn being first means that Caliborn's session must have preformed the scratch. I'll give you that someone else scratching his session is a possibility, albeit an unlikely one. You say a bunch of places where the comic never mentions that Calliope's session is pre-scratch or Caliborn's post-scratch, but, I mean, it never says anything to imply the other way around either, and Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of a doomed time line wouldn't. Please, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the story doesn't change if Caliborn's time line is a doomed one. Please don't, because there's shit I need to do, and if I'm reading you right I'll be laughing too long and too hard to ever get around to it. Er, what I intended to mean was "Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of an alpha/doomed split wouldn't," not specifying which one is doomed. Wouldn't Caliborn coming first still have these same exact problems, though? Once again you're making a great case for there not being a scratch, but failing to say why Caliborn would have come first if there was one. For one, no, not if he didn't scratch. If he doesn't scratch it doesn't come up. For another I've already given you reasons why Muse!Calliope couldn't have scratched even if she was from C1. And I didn't even have to, because if you want to assert that Caliborn is post-scratch, the burden of proof is on you. I fail to see why Caliborn being post-scratch would require burden of proof, yet Caliborn being pre-scratch somehow wouldn't. Regardless, I say it's not a loose end because there are many possible scenarios that could be true, and it doesn't matter which one happened. Whether the masterpiece kids were the same kids who placed the earth in Universe C is a loose end because it makes a difference to the story: it changes who the story showed us in the masterpiece. But if they were different than the ones in Earth C, then the fate of the ones on Earth C doesn't matter to the story (with the exception of potential aborted character arcs or foreshadowing) so it's not a lose end. Are you arguing that if the kids in the masterpiece aren't the same kids who placed Earth C they don't matter? And if they are they do? If so, then by your own logic, isn't it true you can't argue that they're irrelevant unless it's confirmed they're not the same kids? No, you've got it backwards. I'm arguing that the fate of the kids who placed Earth C doesn't matter if they're not the kids in the masterpiece, and does if they are; the kids in the masterpiece matter either way.
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Oct 14, 2017 20:30:20 GMT
I looked through as much of this as I could before I lost track of where the Calliope/Caliborn scratch discussion happened, but I’ve become interested now. I’m curious though, how would a scratch actually make a difference to Caliborn and Calliope’s session anyway? We know that the only thing a scratch does is send different meteors to different times, so how would that result in Calliope dominating vs Caliborn dominating, since they were both born to the same person, and both have the same body? What even alternate meteors would there be to send? Is the implication that, assuming ectobiology exists, their parents were the ectobiologised ones, and they were sent to two different points in time, different in each scratch, such that Calliope could contact the Alpha kids in one, and not in the other? Because otherwise, I don’t see how scratching would affect anything, if possible at all.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 15, 2017 3:40:23 GMT
Comic never says anything about sessions. On this page, a First Guardian is described thusly: And the planet in question already had such an entity assigned to protect it when the cherubs got there. Except that both planets we've seen have had more than one first guardian; sure they're pre- and post-scratch, but that quote says every planet, not every iteration of a planet. The reason it doesn't say iteration of the planet is because this page takes place before the scratch was revealed as a thing the kids could do. It's purposefully vague so that's it's technically true but is still leaving out some important details so as not to reveal anything too early. And it's not like having multiple first guardians per planet contradicts that quote anyway; it doesn't say every planet has exclusively one first guardian. No, but it doesn't have to. Not only does every S***b playing world we see only get one FG per iteration, but if you're supposed to get a new one for every session played on the world in question, earth should be swimming in the bastards, because unlike Alternia and Beforus, planets where only one session ever happened, a LOT more people played S***b than just our main characters. For one, because Skaias are needed for ectobiology meteor shenanigans, and Dead Sessions do not have them. Well, according to your logic of "dead sessions are exactly like regular sessions unless otherwise stated in the comic" then we have no reason to believe dead sessions don't still have the portals. Besides, first guardians also arrive into the universe via meteor. It's not about Dead Sessions having portals or not. It's the fact that the only thing Skaia does when a session is scratched is switch them around so that the meteors go to different places. No Skaia means the portals can't change. For two, it's never explained how S***b can use the cherubs' biology to perform the meteor switch around the same way it does with the trolls and humans. true, but this is irrelevant to the argument of if ectobiology is possible in a dead session. It's relevant to this particular Dead Session. If the story wanted to have a scratch happen in a cherubs' session, (Dead or otherwise) due to it previously establishing how different cherub biology is from that of trolls and humans, it can't just do it the same way it did in the previous universes, or if it does, it has to explain to us how that still works. For four, neither Hussie nor Aranea so much as hint that First Guardians are not part of the package if the session is Dead. They never hint that ectobiology is not part of the package if the session is Dead either. The problem with that is the session being Dead is not the only factor that makes potential ectobiology weird. The cherubs do that too. This doesn't contradict what I said. No matter how Scratch phrases it, the glitch on its own doesn't actually do anything to get LE into the Universe. The quote explicitly says that the glitch is how he prepares his arrival into the universe; how are you not getting that?! Because it doesn't have anything to do with how we know English enters a Universe. He does it through Scratch's death, which comes to pass via the destruction of the Universe he's trying to get into. Unless the glitch directly causes said Universe's destruction somehow, they are only related in so much as they both have a connection to English. Okay one, we don't know that a scratch happened at all and I'm not arguing that it did. For two, if a scratch happened and Caliborn didn't do it, that doesn't automatically mean said scratch happened in a hypothetical pre-scratch session. If Caliborn is from C1 (and every single thing in the comic points to that being the case) that does not change, whether or not he scratches his session. If there was no scratch then the concept of who came "first" is meaningless, hence why I've been framing things within the context of a scratch. If there was no scratch then you can just change first to "only" if you find the concept of "first" meaningless and so bothersome. There's no reason to construct this superfluous and baseless hypothetical just because of that. I didn't see a point in addressing something there's no evidence for. In a normal session, when the game is won, the medium is transformed in a way such that it seems that a scratch is no longer possible. While it's possible a dead session does not change such that a scratch is no longer possible, aren't you the one who's arguing dead sessions are like normal sessions unless otherwise stated? No, I'm saying that if two separate characters go to great lengths to tell us what makes a Dead Session different from a viable, null or void session but leave some things out, either those things aren't different and thus weren't worth mentioning, or, at the very least, there's no way to know those things are different, because they haven't been confirmed to be so. And in any case it's not stated anywhere that you can't scratch once you've won the game. We've only ever seen post-scratch sessions create a Universe, so what happens if you do that in a pre-scratch session and whether it still let's you scratch has never come up. If there was a reason you couldn't, it'd probably be because in a winning session, Skaia is now occupied by your new Universe. However, not only is this never confirmed one way or another, you cannot make a new Universe in a Dead Session under any circumstances anyway.
If you set up a rule in a story you write and then have someone seemingly break that rule without the previously established consequences for doing so occurring, either you've failed to make it clear that they didn't actually break that rule or you've created an inconsistency. Either way it's a mistake. It's not my job to assume things to fill in the plotholes for Hussie. If I wanted to do that I'd write my own damn comic. Except that saying they didn't send the weapons back is also making an assumption. The only reason you're finding an inconsistency is because you're assuming they didn't do what was said they would do, which is a rather absurd assumption to make. ......So I should assume something happens even if I don't see it? Just in general that makes no sense at all, but in a comic where inconsistencies are incredibly important because they doom time lines? In a comic that has had us follow characters and time lines only to reveal to us later, because of such an inconsistency, they were ultimately doomed? Yeah, no. Okay. Tell me how she scratches without a scratch construct. Without using the word if. Well the idea of her potentially not having a scratch construct because of being a space player was the one piece of evidence I already conceded to, but that was not what I was aguing against in what you're referring to here. You had argued that she was unlikely to have done the scratch because she would have to run back to Echidna's lair to be killed before the scratch happened, so I countered by stating many possible ways she could have solved or circumvented this problem, whereas Caliborn being trapped in a puppet was a much harder obstacle to overcome. It doesn't matter if she can make it back to Echidna in time to die if she doesn't have a construct. So until you can come up with a way she has one or a way she scratches without it (based on evidence and not what-ifs) then it doesn't matter how unlikely or likely it is that she can make her deal with her Denizen before her hypothetical session is wiped out. That would just be another problem if the first problem was solved, which it has not been. I'm not arguing it's unlikely Muse!Calliope was unable to scratch because she'd have to make it to Echidna before the scratch completed (although just that makes it incredibly unlikely and would've probably required more than one meeting with the Mother of All Monsters as even if Muse!Calliope knew about the scratch before talking with Echidna she'd still need her needles to do it) I'm arguing that it's impossible because absolutely everything we know about scratches tells us that her planet wouldn't have had a scratch construct, and she thusly wouldn't be able to scratch. You fail to see how no proof and no way for something to be possible makes it less likely to happen than something the comic has shown us can in fact be done? Sure, no proof against an alternative that also has no proof, and no way for something to be possible except the many valid was I already mentioned for it to be possible. You didn't explain how Muse!Calliope either has a scratch construct, or scratches without one. And there is proof of an alternative being possible. As I said, Bro was able to scratch Dave's construct with his sword, the same sword Dirk possesses when he's left on C1 with the other Alphas. They also could've still had Echidna's quills, which the Betas used to scratch their session. And while it's the least likely possibility of all, there's still a retcon John who could swing by the planet for whatever reason. 1) You believe Musie!Calliope played a Dead Session. 2) A Space player could not scratch a Dead Session. So if Caliborn didn't scratch and someone did, it couldn't have been Muse!Calliope in her Dead Session. Not to mention that even without a Space player not being able to scratch a Dead Session, that's an incredible leap in logic. I'm not arguing that a scratch definitely happened and I don't know anyone who is, so Caliborn not scratching doesn't mean someone else would've had to. And even if someone did have to, it could've just been someone other than Caliborn that scratched his session, the way John scratched the B1 session even though LOHAC wasn't his planet and he wasn't a Time player. As already mentioned, if Caliborn came first, then there has to be a concept of coming first, and thus a scratch must have happened. You make it sound a little like you can't keep pre-scratch and post-scratch straight in your head without there actually being a scratch. Well, I don't have any such problem, so I don't need a scratch to have happened to categorize the twins' Earth and session as first. If you earn a dollar and never earn anymore, it's still your first dollar, it's just your first and only dollar. Please, please don't tell me you're suggesting that the story doesn't change if Caliborn's time line is a doomed one. Please don't, because there's shit I need to do, and if I'm reading you right I'll be laughing too long and too hard to ever get around to it. Er, what I intended to mean was "Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of an alpha/doomed split wouldn't," not specifying which one is doomed. I really have to make sure I've got this crystal clear. What are you saying here about doomed time lines and Caliborn? For one, no, not if he didn't scratch. If he doesn't scratch it doesn't come up. For another I've already given you reasons why Muse!Calliope couldn't have scratched even if she was from C1. And I didn't even have to, because if you want to assert that Caliborn is post-scratch, the burden of proof is on you. I fail to see why Caliborn being post-scratch would require burden of proof, yet Caliborn being pre-scratch somehow wouldn't. You make a claim, you got to back it up. It's as simple as that. Are you arguing that if the kids in the masterpiece aren't the same kids who placed Earth C they don't matter? And if they are they do? If so, then by your own logic, isn't it true you can't argue that they're irrelevant unless it's confirmed they're not the same kids? No, you've got it backwards. I'm arguing that the fate of the kids who placed Earth C doesn't matter if they're not the kids in the masterpiece, and does if they are; the kids in the masterpiece matter either way. So wouldn't that mean I'd still be right to say that by that logic you can't brush off the Earth C kids if you don't know if they're the same as the kids who do matter? Not to mention, if characters matter, then it matters what ultimately happens to them, which we don't get to see. We don't know if the alphas ever make it off Caliborn's planet and we don't know if the Betas ever get out of the Juju, or what the Juju does with them, if anything.
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 15, 2017 16:40:35 GMT
Except that both planets we've seen have had more than one first guardian; sure they're pre- and post-scratch, but that quote says every planet, not every iteration of a planet. The reason it doesn't say iteration of the planet is because this page takes place before the scratch was revealed as a thing the kids could do. It's purposefully vague so that's it's technically true but is still leaving out some important details so as not to reveal anything too early. So you're using a strict interpretation of something that's purposefully vague as evidence. And it's not like having multiple first guardians per planet contradicts that quote anyway; it doesn't say every planet has exclusively one first guardian. No, but it doesn't have to. Not only does every S***b playing world we see only get one FG per iteration, but if you're supposed to get a new one for every session played on the world in question, earth should be swimming in the bastards, because unlike Alternia and Beforus, planets where only one session ever happened, a LOT more people played S***b than just our main characters. For one thing, it's possible there were more first guardians that we didn't see. I know, I know, I don't see that as likely either, but it's still a possibility to consider. Perhaps more likely is that all the other sessions were predestined to fail and thus not serve the "ultimate purpose" like the main one in B1 ... contributed to. Or maybe they shared the same first guardian since they all used the code from the same frog ruins. Whatever the case, the fact that, as you yourself said, the quote was purposefully vague, leaves it open to interpretation. But to bring up a different point, the reason post-scratch sessions need to make a new first guardian is because the pre-scratch session created the first one. If through your logic the first iteration of the session didn't need to make one, then scratching the session would not remove the first guardian as it exists without the events of the first session, so it still wouldn't need to make one either. Well, according to your logic of "dead sessions are exactly like regular sessions unless otherwise stated in the comic" then we have no reason to believe dead sessions don't still have the portals. Besides, first guardians also arrive into the universe via meteor. It's not about Dead Sessions having portals or not. It's the fact that the only thing Skaia does when a session is scratched is switch them around so that the meteors go to different places. No Skaia means the portals can't change. But Skaia does still exist. It may be a black hole now, but that's changing forms, not ceasing to exist. Besides, even if we assume it is gone, isn't that evidence against being able to scratch, not evidence against ectobiology being possible? true, but this is irrelevant to the argument of if ectobiology is possible in a dead session. It's relevant to this particular Dead Session. If the story wanted to have a scratch happen in a cherubs' session, (Dead or otherwise) due to it previously establishing how different cherub biology is from that of trolls and humans, it can't just do it the same way it did in the previous universes, or if it does, it has to explain to us how that still works. Again, evidence against a scratch happening, not evidence against ectobiology happening. They never hint that ectobiology is not part of the package if the session is Dead either. The problem with that is the session being Dead is not the only factor that makes potential ectobiology weird. The cherubs do that too. ...Ok, fair enough. I concede that first guardian creation is more likely than ectobiology happening in the cherub's session. I still don't think either happened, though. The quote explicitly says that the glitch is how he prepares his arrival into the universe; how are you not getting that?! Because it doesn't have anything to do with how we know English enters a Universe. He does it through Scratch's death, which comes to pass via the destruction of the Universe he's trying to get into. Unless the glitch directly causes said Universe's destruction somehow, they are only related in so much as they both have a connection to English. It states that such happenings are a symptom of the glitch, not the full glitch itself. I'd assume the glitch itself has to do with ensuring Lil' Cal gets used within the formula for creating the first guardian, but doubt we'll ever know the full details. And I'd say something like that is more likely than Doc Scratch's explicit words being wrong. If there was no scratch then the concept of who came "first" is meaningless, hence why I've been framing things within the context of a scratch. If there was no scratch then you can just change first to "only" if you find the concept of "first" meaningless and so bothersome. There's no reason to construct this superfluous and baseless hypothetical just because of that. Well without this hypothetical, then then this argument is pointless, as this entire part of the argument was about which one came "first." "First" and "only" are two entirely different concepts. Though with that said, of course Caliborn's session wasn't the only session. Even if it was on a doomed branch Calliope's session still happened. In a normal session, when the game is won, the medium is transformed in a way such that it seems that a scratch is no longer possible. While it's possible a dead session does not change such that a scratch is no longer possible, aren't you the one who's arguing dead sessions are like normal sessions unless otherwise stated? No, I'm saying that if two separate characters go to great lengths to tell us what makes a Dead Session different from a viable, null or void session but leave some things out, either those things aren't different and thus weren't worth mentioning, or, at the very least, there's no way to know those things are different, because they haven't been confirmed to be so. And in any case it's not stated anywhere that you can't scratch once you've won the game. We've only ever seen post-scratch sessions create a Universe, so what happens if you do that in a pre-scratch session and whether it still let's you scratch has never come up. If there was a reason you couldn't, it'd probably be because in a winning session, Skaia is now occupied by your new Universe. However, not only is this never confirmed one way or another, you cannot make a new Universe in a Dead Session under any circumstances anyway. I never said it was proof, only that it makes it more likely to be true. There is no definitive proof for either side of our argument. Except that saying they didn't send the weapons back is also making an assumption. The only reason you're finding an inconsistency is because you're assuming they didn't do what was said they would do, which is a rather absurd assumption to make. ......So I should assume something happens even if I don't see it? Just in general that makes no sense at all, but in a comic where inconsistencies are incredibly important because they doom time lines? In a comic that has had us follow characters and time lines only to reveal to us later, because of such an inconsistency, they were ultimately doomed? Yeah, no. You never see Rose give John the needles, are you assuming that to never have happened? What about Grimdark Rose losing her fight against Jack? You never see that happen either. But in both cases you are told it's going to happen (Rose being told to give the needles to John, Doc Scratch saying she wouldn't win) and the results of it happening (John having the needles to preform the scratch, John finding Rose's dead body next to him when she revives), so you'd have to go out of your way to assume these things never happened. The case of the alpha kids sending the weapons back in time is the same way. Well the idea of her potentially not having a scratch construct because of being a space player was the one piece of evidence I already conceded to, but that was not what I was aguing against in what you're referring to here. You had argued that she was unlikely to have done the scratch because she would have to run back to Echidna's lair to be killed before the scratch happened, so I countered by stating many possible ways she could have solved or circumvented this problem, whereas Caliborn being trapped in a puppet was a much harder obstacle to overcome. It doesn't matter if she can make it back to Echidna in time to die if she doesn't have a construct. So until you can come up with a way she has one or a way she scratches without it (based on evidence and not what-ifs) then it doesn't matter how unlikely or likely it is that she can make her deal with her Denizen before her hypothetical session is wiped out. That would just be another problem if the first problem was solved, which it has not been. I'm not arguing it's unlikely Muse!Calliope was unable to scratch because she'd have to make it to Echidna before the scratch completed (although just that makes it incredibly unlikely and would've probably required more than one meeting with the Mother of All Monsters as even if Muse!Calliope knew about the scratch before talking with Echidna she'd still need her needles to do it) I'm arguing that it's impossible because absolutely everything we know about scratches tells us that her planet wouldn't have had a scratch construct, and she thusly wouldn't be able to scratch. Sure, no proof against an alternative that also has no proof, and no way for something to be possible except the many valid was I already mentioned for it to be possible. You didn't explain how Muse!Calliope either has a scratch construct, or scratches without one. And there is proof of an alternative being possible. As I said, Bro was able to scratch Dave's construct with his sword, the same sword Dirk possesses when he's left on C1 with the other Alphas. They also could've still had Echidna's quills, which the Betas used to scratch their session. And while it's the least likely possibility of all, there's still a retcon John who could swing by the planet for whatever reason. Ok, this is my bad. When I read your initial post on the subject, I completely missed the part about her probably not having a scratch construct, so when you started bringing it up later, I thought you were adding it as new evidence to a stance you supported regardless. But going back and finding when you first mentioned this, I realize you were saying that from the beginning. I still think her being able to get back to Echidna is a non issue, but the lack of construct problem I've already conceded to. But now that I think of it, with dead sessions being based on pool, wouldn't it be perfectly fitting to have the scratch mechanism be to sink the 8th planet before the others? And this is possible regardless of player aspect. Just a hypothetical, and I don't know how likely it is, but still, something to think about. For my overall point, though, here's a concise version of my argument: Evidence for Caliborn doing the scratch: Calliope probably didn't have a scratch construct due to being a space player. Evidence for Calliope doing the scratch: Caliborn's soul was stick in a puppet before the potential scratch. Caliborn would have no reason to do the scratch. Caliborn won is session so a scratch may no longer be possible. While the first option had the stronger evidence, the second option has more evidence. Note that my argument was not that Calliope did the scratch, just that you can't discount the possibility of that being the case. As already mentioned, if Caliborn came first, then there has to be a concept of coming first, and thus a scratch must have happened. You make it sound a little like you can't keep pre-scratch and post-scratch straight in your head without there actually being a scratch. Well, I don't have any such problem, so I don't need a scratch to have happened to categorize the twins' Earth and session as first. If you earn a dollar and never earn anymore, it's still your first dollar, it's just your first and only dollar. Ok then, could you please explain to be how it's possible to have a pre- and post-scratch version of a session that never gets scratched? And I'm not sure what you're implying with the dollar thing. Er, what I intended to mean was "Caliborn being first would also serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of an alpha/doomed split wouldn't," not specifying which one is doomed. I really have to make sure I've got this crystal clear. What are you saying here about doomed time lines and Caliborn? Nothing. I'm saying that it makes no difference to the story whether Caliborn was the pre-scratch timeline of a scratched session, of if Caliborn and Calliope's timeline was split through other means, one potential alternative being that one of them is in an offshoot doomed timeline. Or perhaps more concisely: You were saying that Calliope being pre-scratch would add nothing to the story, and I was countering that by saying that Caliborn being pre-scratch wouldn't add anything to the story either. I fail to see why Caliborn being post-scratch would require burden of proof, yet Caliborn being pre-scratch somehow wouldn't. You make a claim, you got to back it up. It's as simple as that. You misunderstand my intentions. I am not arguing that Calliope came first, I am arguing against your assertion that Caliborn came first. I am simply stating that your claim is not necessarily true and that the possibility, not the certainty, of the other option still exists. Even if that wasn't the case, you also have a claim that needs to be backed up, so the burden of proof is on you too. No, you've got it backwards. I'm arguing that the fate of the kids who placed Earth C doesn't matter if they're not the kids in the masterpiece, and does if they are; the kids in the masterpiece matter either way. So wouldn't that mean I'd still be right to say that by that logic you can't brush off the Earth C kids if you don't know if they're the same as the kids who do matter? True, and that does make a difference in the fate of Earth C. But the fate of Earth C is still open-ended otherwise. Not to mention, if characters matter, then it matters what ultimately happens to them, which we don't get to see. We don't know if the alphas ever make it off Caliborn's planet and we don't know if the Betas ever get out of the Juju, or what the Juju does with them, if anything. First of all, the characters matter up to the point where they no longer appear in the story, have wrapped up their story arcs, and fulfilled all the non-red herring foreshadowing; they don't continue to matter forever (and even while they do matter, not everything that they do matters, things not shown in the story that don't have anything to do with foreshadowing or story arcs don't matter either). One could make the argument that, if all character acrs were completed and we learned who participated in the masterpiece, then everything you mentioned there would be an open ended without any loose ends for all the characters, albeit an unsatisfyingly. More importantly, though, is that none of the things you mentioned there have anything to do with the fate of Earth C.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Oct 17, 2017 7:25:53 GMT
The reason it doesn't say iteration of the planet is because this page takes place before the scratch was revealed as a thing the kids could do. It's purposefully vague so that's it's technically true but is still leaving out some important details so as not to reveal anything too early. So you're using a strict interpretation of something that's purposefully vague as evidence. That and the following argument. Not to mention that without knowing about the scratch (or possibly even after knowing about it) the audience could interpret a word like 'iterations' to mean doomed time lines, and that would just be wrong and confusing for everyone. No, but it doesn't have to. Not only does every S***b playing world we see only get one FG per iteration, but if you're supposed to get a new one for every session played on the world in question, earth should be swimming in the bastards, because unlike Alternia and Beforus, planets where only one session ever happened, a LOT more people played S***b than just our main characters. For one thing, it's possible there were more first guardians that we didn't see. I know, I know, I don't see that as likely either, but it's still a possibility to consider. Nah. I could point out that every First Guardian and their machinations have been super, super obvious, (In Bec, this was of course to draw our attention to a FG's unique traits so it'd be easy to recognize similar attributes in Scratch and GCAT.) and I could point out that every one of their creations has been rather involved (the whole thing with the unconscious code and requiring someone from the Derse kingdom finding them and using them to make FGs) and I could point out that handling the codes for the FG of every single session on earth would probably leave the Dersite Crew with no time to do any of the other shit they do, (and they weren't even paying attention enough to see the kids' code without Vriska) but I think what's most telling is Bec's destroying the ectobiology lab as he was being born, as seen in Descend. That shows that the lab cannot handle making more than one of the things. And all that's without pointing out there's not so much as a shred of evidence for the possibility that there's ever more than one FG per planet. But to bring up a different point, the reason post-scratch sessions need to make a new first guardian is because the pre-scratch session created the first one. If through your logic the first iteration of the session didn't need to make one, then scratching the session would not remove the first guardian as it exists without the events of the first session, so it still wouldn't need to make one either. What? It's not about Dead Sessions having portals or not. It's the fact that the only thing Skaia does when a session is scratched is switch them around so that the meteors go to different places. No Skaia means the portals can't change. But Skaia does still exist. It may be a black hole now, but that's changing forms, not ceasing to exist. Besides, even if we assume it is gone, isn't that evidence against being able to scratch, not evidence against ectobiology being possible? I didn't say anything about ectobiology being possible or impossible, I said it'd make ectobiology meteor shenanigans impossible. It's relevant to this particular Dead Session. If the story wanted to have a scratch happen in a cherubs' session, (Dead or otherwise) due to it previously establishing how different cherub biology is from that of trolls and humans, it can't just do it the same way it did in the previous universes, or if it does, it has to explain to us how that still works. Again, evidence against a scratch happening, not evidence against ectobiology happening. Actually no, because the alignments and sexes of the cherub offspring are determined via coitus, and ectobiology employs none whatsoever. If there's any way for the labs to simulate that or make up for its lack, it's never been shown or explained to us. Because it doesn't have anything to do with how we know English enters a Universe. He does it through Scratch's death, which comes to pass via the destruction of the Universe he's trying to get into. Unless the glitch directly causes said Universe's destruction somehow, they are only related in so much as they both have a connection to English. It states that such happenings are a symptom of the glitch, not the full glitch itself. I'd assume the glitch itself has to do with ensuring Lil' Cal gets used within the formula for creating the first guardian, but doubt we'll ever know the full details. And I'd say something like that is more likely than Doc Scratch's explicit words being wrong. Or it could be that interpretation of those words is just not correct. *shrug* There's no direct connection between English entering the Universe and the Universe A glitch. That's just a fact. If there was no scratch then you can just change first to "only" if you find the concept of "first" meaningless and so bothersome. There's no reason to construct this superfluous and baseless hypothetical just because of that. Well without this hypothetical, then then this argument is pointless, as this entire part of the argument was about which one came "first." The idea of Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch was never a legitimate idea worth arguing. It was a completely erroneous idea that was introduced onto this board because someone made a mistake. I haven't been arguing over who came first like some kind of Abbot and Costello routine from hell, I've been arguing that the idea of Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch has no basis and is ridiculous on its face. If you wanted to argue its veracity there are a million problems that you'd have to address, but you couldn't, because the comic itself never gave us enough information to do so. "First" and "only" are two entirely different concepts. Not if you're talking about a pre-scratch session that never scratches. Then it's kind of both. Though with that said, of course Caliborn's session wasn't the only session. Even if it was on a doomed branch Calliope's session still happened. Unless Muse!Calliope is on the other side of a scratch from Caliborn it's pretty much the same session, just doomed. The way Doomed!Dave and Doomed!Rose were still playing their worlds and their session even with Jade and John gone. No, I'm saying that if two separate characters go to great lengths to tell us what makes a Dead Session different from a viable, null or void session but leave some things out, either those things aren't different and thus weren't worth mentioning, or, at the very least, there's no way to know those things are different, because they haven't been confirmed to be so. And in any case it's not stated anywhere that you can't scratch once you've won the game. We've only ever seen post-scratch sessions create a Universe, so what happens if you do that in a pre-scratch session and whether it still let's you scratch has never come up. If there was a reason you couldn't, it'd probably be because in a winning session, Skaia is now occupied by your new Universe. However, not only is this never confirmed one way or another, you cannot make a new Universe in a Dead Session under any circumstances anyway. I never said it was proof, only that it makes it more likely to be true. There is no definitive proof for either side of our argument. My side of the argument is that we don't know, and have no hard evidence that you can't scratch after winning. ......So I should assume something happens even if I don't see it? Just in general that makes no sense at all, but in a comic where inconsistencies are incredibly important because they doom time lines? In a comic that has had us follow characters and time lines only to reveal to us later, because of such an inconsistency, they were ultimately doomed? Yeah, no. You never see Rose give John the needles, are you assuming that to never have happened? You mean Jade. I'm not going to assume that never happened because we have evidence that it did, in John receiving the needles and Jade meeting with Echidna. What about Grimdark Rose losing her fight against Jack? Again, shit load of evidence for that, including a fight were she's shown to be losing progressively more health as time goes on, a dead Rose, and a Jack that's still alive. The case of the alpha kids sending the weapons back in time is the same way. No it's not because unlike those other cases, there's no evidence that they ever sent the weapons back. It would be like if John received the needles from Jade but she was never shown to have met with her Denizen. It doesn't matter if she can make it back to Echidna in time to die if she doesn't have a construct. So until you can come up with a way she has one or a way she scratches without it (based on evidence and not what-ifs) then it doesn't matter how unlikely or likely it is that she can make her deal with her Denizen before her hypothetical session is wiped out. That would just be another problem if the first problem was solved, which it has not been. I'm not arguing it's unlikely Muse!Calliope was unable to scratch because she'd have to make it to Echidna before the scratch completed (although just that makes it incredibly unlikely and would've probably required more than one meeting with the Mother of All Monsters as even if Muse!Calliope knew about the scratch before talking with Echidna she'd still need her needles to do it) I'm arguing that it's impossible because absolutely everything we know about scratches tells us that her planet wouldn't have had a scratch construct, and she thusly wouldn't be able to scratch. You didn't explain how Muse!Calliope either has a scratch construct, or scratches without one. And there is proof of an alternative being possible. As I said, Bro was able to scratch Dave's construct with his sword, the same sword Dirk possesses when he's left on C1 with the other Alphas. They also could've still had Echidna's quills, which the Betas used to scratch their session. And while it's the least likely possibility of all, there's still a retcon John who could swing by the planet for whatever reason. Ok, this is my bad. When I read your initial post on the subject, I completely missed the part about her probably not having a scratch construct, so when you started bringing it up later, I thought you were adding it as new evidence to a stance you supported regardless. But going back and finding when you first mentioned this, I realize you were saying that from the beginning. I still think her being able to get back to Echidna is a non issue, but the lack of construct problem I've already conceded to. Yeah, I was just trying to be clear. To make it even more clear, for the record, it is confirmed that the constructs only show up on Time players' planets, at least according to Scratch. But now that I think of it, with dead sessions being based on pool, wouldn't it be perfectly fitting to have the scratch mechanism be to sink the 8th planet before the others? And this is possible regardless of player aspect. Just a hypothetical, and I don't know how likely it is, but still, something to think about. I've actually thought this myself, (and blabbered on about it at length) as scratching the game, a scratch in billiards, billiards in general, Lord English, Caliborn and Dead Sessions have all been thematically intertwined. (And it's why I love the idea of Caliborn's session being scratched so much.) But if that was how a scratch in a Dead Session worked, it could be that you're meant to toss the construct or even the player's planet in the black hole, (as it's the player that functions as the cue ball in this session) but it'd only work if it was a Time player's planet. This would mirror how the Scratch construct is sent into Skaia in other sessions. But, unless the epilogue or any other Homestuck thing wants to confirm how a scratch works with Dead Sessions and/or cherubs, that would still leave a lot of shit unanswered. I'm not arguing one way or another for this notion here because we simply can't know, but I've always thought it was plausible and I'm just stating it because I really like it. For my overall point, though, here's a concise version of my argument: Evidence for Caliborn doing the scratch: Calliope probably didn't have a scratch construct due to being a space player. Evidence for Calliope doing the scratch: Caliborn's soul was stick in a puppet before the potential scratch. Caliborn would have no reason to do the scratch. Caliborn won is session so a scratch may no longer be possible. For one, again, no one's arguing a scratch happened at all, so one of these two doesn't have to have done it. So the 'evidence' that one didn't do it isn't evidence for the other doing it. So the fact that Muse!Calliope couldn't have done it is not undercut by Caliborn supposedly not being able to do it. Not to mention, as I've said, there are other ways that Caliborn's session could be scratched besides the Caliborn from the masterpiece doing it anyway, so even if there had to have been a scratch, that would mean that of the two it had to be done in Caliborn's time line, because his would've at least been possible, if unlikely. Unlike in Muse!Calliope's. You make it sound a little like you can't keep pre-scratch and post-scratch straight in your head without there actually being a scratch. Well, I don't have any such problem, so I don't need a scratch to have happened to categorize the twins' Earth and session as first. If you earn a dollar and never earn anymore, it's still your first dollar, it's just your first and only dollar. Ok then, could you please explain to be how it's possible to have a pre- and post-scratch version of a session that never gets scratched? And I'm not sure what you're implying with the dollar thing. I'm not saying it's possible to have a pre-scratch and post-scratch session without a scratch. I'm saying that a pre-scratch session that doesn't scratch is still pre-scratch. C1 is still C1 even if there's never a scratch. A Universe has one certain iteration and one potential iteration. The certain one is always first, even if it never scratches and the potential, second one never comes into being. I really have to make sure I've got this crystal clear. What are you saying here about doomed time lines and Caliborn? Nothing. I'm saying that it makes no difference to the story whether Caliborn was the pre-scratch timeline of a scratched session, of if Caliborn and Calliope's timeline was split through other means, one potential alternative being that one of them is in an offshoot doomed timeline. See, that right there is what I wanted to be sure of. Caliborn cannot be in a doomed time line unless you want to argue that masterpiece!Caliborn and the one watching it weren't the same. And even then, it that'd make his ghost a loose end, unless he scratched. The whole point of Caliborn and Lord English's story is that their existence is what makes the alpha the alpha because he's ingratiated himself into all the folds and crannies of time that came before he was even born. Him being from a doomed time line would make no sense based on what we know as of now. You make a claim, you got to back it up. It's as simple as that. You misunderstand my intentions. I am not arguing that Calliope came first, I am arguing against your assertion that Caliborn came first. As I said earlier in this post, my argument is mainly that the idea that Muse!Calliope is pre-scratch is baseless. So wouldn't that mean I'd still be right to say that by that logic you can't brush off the Earth C kids if you don't know if they're the same as the kids who do matter? True, and that does make a difference in the fate of Earth C. But the fate of Earth C is still open-ended otherwise. Whether it's open ended or not is not the point. The point is whether that's a loose end. And by your logic, if the Earth C kids and the masterpiece kids are the same, then what happens to Earth C is a loose end. Not to mention, if characters matter, then it matters what ultimately happens to them, which we don't get to see. We don't know if the alphas ever make it off Caliborn's planet and we don't know if the Betas ever get out of the Juju, or what the Juju does with them, if anything. First of all, the characters matter up to the point where they no longer appear in the story, have wrapped up their story arcs, and fulfilled all the non-red herring foreshadowing; they don't continue to matter forever (and even while they do matter, not everything that they do matters, things not shown in the story that don't have anything to do with foreshadowing or story arcs don't matter either). One could make the argument that, if all character acrs were completed and we learned who participated in the masterpiece, then everything you mentioned there would be an open ended without any loose ends for all the characters, albeit an unsatisfyingly. I'd like to point out that's it's arguable any more than three characters managed to wrap up a story arc, there is a ton of foreshadowing that has not been fulfilled but was instead unceremoniously dropped, and a character leaving a story doesn't necessarily automatically make them not important anymore. There are a ton of stories where a character's death triggers a whole bunch of plot, meaning that the character and what happened to them is still important even if they're not around anymore. Actually, because they're not around anymore.
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Oct 17, 2017 18:23:50 GMT
So you're using a strict interpretation of something that's purposefully vague as evidence. That and the following argument. Not to mention that without knowing about the scratch (or possibly even after knowing about it) the audience could interpret a word like 'iterations' to mean doomed time lines, and that would just be wrong and confusing for everyone. It is true that it was likely left vague to avoid confusion regarding a concept we didn't know about yet, but for all we know, the cherub's session was another case we didn't know about where the strict interpretation of it doesn't apply. For one thing, it's possible there were more first guardians that we didn't see. I know, I know, I don't see that as likely either, but it's still a possibility to consider. Nah. I could point out that every First Guardian and their machinations have been super, super obvious, (In Bec, this was of course to draw our attention to a FG's unique traits so it'd be easy to recognize similar attributes in Scratch and GCAT.) and I could point out that every one of their creations has been rather involved (the whole thing with the unconscious code and requiring someone from the Derse kingdom finding them and using them to make FGs) and I could point out that handling the codes for the FG of every single session on earth would probably leave the Dersite Crew with no time to do any of the other shit they do, (and they weren't even paying attention enough to see the kids' code without Vriska) but I think what's most telling is Bec's destroying the ectobiology lab as he was being born, as seen in Descend. That shows that the lab cannot handle making more than one of the things. But you see, all that is in reference to one session. If there are more first guardians for eash session, then they would be created in their respective sessions and irrelevant to the session we see. But, as I said, it's only a possibility, and I don't think it's likely either, mainly because, as you say: And all that's without pointing out there's not so much as a shred of evidence for the possibility that there's ever more than one FG per planet. But to bring up a different point, the reason post-scratch sessions need to make a new first guardian is because the pre-scratch session created the first one. If through your logic the first iteration of the session didn't need to make one, then scratching the session would not remove the first guardian as it exists without the events of the first session, so it still wouldn't need to make one either. What? Ok, I'll try to be as clear as possible about this: In a normal session, the (pre-scratch) session creates a first guardian, sends it back in time, and that becomes the first guardian for the planet. If the session is scratched, the effects of the session are erased for the post-scratch universe, including the first guardian, thus, it's up to the post-scratch session to create a new first guardian to replace the old one. If, however, by some means the planet already has a first guardian, and because of your logic the session doesn't create a first guardian because of the existing one already being present, then if the session gets scratched, the effects of the pre-scratch session are erased, but the creation of the first guardian was not done by the session this time, so the existing first guardian would not get erased, and thus the post-scratch session would be in the same position as the pre-scratch one: There already is a first guardian, so it doesn't need to make a new one. But Skaia does still exist. It may be a black hole now, but that's changing forms, not ceasing to exist. Besides, even if we assume it is gone, isn't that evidence against being able to scratch, not evidence against ectobiology being possible? I didn't say anything about ectobiology being possible or impossible, I said it'd make ectobiology meteor shenanigans impossible. Except in your own words "It's not about Dead Sessions having portals or not." If it has portals, then ectobiologised babies can still be sent through them. If Skaia's not there, it can't switch up the portal destinations to do a scratch, but the babies sent through them still have to end up somewhere. Again, evidence against a scratch happening, not evidence against ectobiology happening. Actually no, because the alignments and sexes of the cherub offspring are determined via coitus, and ectobiology employs none whatsoever. If there's any way for the labs to simulate that or make up for its lack, it's never been shown or explained to us. True, but that's a different argument than the one I quoted there. Anyway, I should just drop the subject, I've already conceded this point. It states that such happenings are a symptom of the glitch, not the full glitch itself. I'd assume the glitch itself has to do with ensuring Lil' Cal gets used within the formula for creating the first guardian, but doubt we'll ever know the full details. And I'd say something like that is more likely than Doc Scratch's explicit words being wrong. Or it could be that interpretation of those words is just not correct. *shrug* There's no direct connection between English entering the Universe and the Universe A glitch. That's just a fact. Literally the only instance where we're explicitly told the glitch is present is one where we know Lord English enters the universe, and we're told it's part of how he marks a universe to be visited. It's my turn to tell you that if you want to argue otherwise, the burden of proof is on you. Well without this hypothetical, then then this argument is pointless, as this entire part of the argument was about which one came "first." The idea of Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch was never a legitimate idea worth arguing. It was a completely erroneous idea that was introduced onto this board because someone made a mistake. I haven't been arguing over who came first like some kind of Abbot and Costello routine from hell, I've been arguing that the idea of Muse!Calliope being pre-scratch has no basis and is ridiculous on its face. If you wanted to argue its veracity there are a million problems that you'd have to address, but you couldn't, because the comic itself never gave us enough information to do so. Except I have addressed those problems many times already, and pointed out how there are also a million problems that you'd have to address if you want to claim she's post-scratch. "First" and "only" are two entirely different concepts. Not if you're talking about a pre-scratch session that never scratches. Then it's kind of both. Though with that said, of course Caliborn's session wasn't the only session. Even if it was on a doomed branch Calliope's session still happened. Unless Muse!Calliope is on the other side of a scratch from Caliborn it's pretty much the same session, just doomed. The way Doomed!Dave and Doomed!Rose were still playing their worlds and their session even with Jade and John gone. <joining together because they are on the same topic> Ok then, could you please explain to be how it's possible to have a pre- and post-scratch version of a session that never gets scratched? And I'm not sure what you're implying with the dollar thing. I'm not saying it's possible to have a pre-scratch and post-scratch session without a scratch. I'm saying that a pre-scratch session that doesn't scratch is still pre-scratch. C1 is still C1 even if there's never a scratch. A Universe has one certain iteration and one potential iteration. The certain one is always first, even if it never scratches and the potential, second one never comes into being. Ok, that's fair. If no scratch occurred then Caliborn is pre-scratch and thus "first." But wouldn't that also mean Muse!Calliope is pre-scratch and thus "first" as well? What's the point of even arguing who came first when they came at the same time, so to speak? I never said it was proof, only that it makes it more likely to be true. There is no definitive proof for either side of our argument. My side of the argument is that we don't know, and have no hard evidence that you can't scratch after winning. And when you don't know something, the best you can do is look at the probabilities. Yes, we don't know that you can't scratch after winning, but it is more likely to be the case. You never see Rose give John the needles, are you assuming that to never have happened? You mean Jade. I'm not going to assume that never happened because we have evidence that it did, in John receiving the needles and Jade meeting with Echidna. What about Grimdark Rose losing her fight against Jack? Again, shit load of evidence for that, including a fight were she's shown to be losing progressively more health as time goes on, a dead Rose, and a Jack that's still alive. The case of the alpha kids sending the weapons back in time is the same way. No it's not because unlike those other cases, there's no evidence that they ever sent the weapons back. It would be like if John received the needles from Jade but she was never shown to have met with her Denizen. Why is it unlike the other cases? You cited John receiving the needles as evidence, yet somehow Jake receiving the weapons is not evidence? And there is no evidence that they didn't send the weapons. But now that I think of it, with dead sessions being based on pool, wouldn't it be perfectly fitting to have the scratch mechanism be to sink the 8th planet before the others? And this is possible regardless of player aspect. Just a hypothetical, and I don't know how likely it is, but still, something to think about. I've actually thought this myself, (and blabbered on about it at length) as scratching the game, a scratch in billiards, billiards in general, Lord English, Caliborn and Dead Sessions have all been thematically intertwined. (And it's why I love the idea of Caliborn's session being scratched so much.) But if that was how a scratch in a Dead Session worked, it could be that you're meant to toss the construct or even the player's planet in the black hole, (as it's the player that functions as the cue ball in this session) but it'd only work if it was a Time player's planet. This would mirror how the Scratch construct is sent into Skaia in other sessions. Fair enough, except why would sinking a non-time player's planet not work? The reason you need a time player to scratch normally is because the construct only exists on their planet, but if the idea is to sink the planet, the player will have a planet to sink regardless of if they're a time player or not. For my overall point, though, here's a concise version of my argument: Evidence for Caliborn doing the scratch: Calliope probably didn't have a scratch construct due to being a space player. Evidence for Calliope doing the scratch: Caliborn's soul was stick in a puppet before the potential scratch. Caliborn would have no reason to do the scratch. Caliborn won is session so a scratch may no longer be possible. For one, again, no one's arguing a scratch happened at all, so one of these two doesn't have to have done it. So the 'evidence' that one didn't do it isn't evidence for the other doing it. So the fact that Muse!Calliope couldn't have done it is not undercut by Caliborn supposedly not being able to do it. I am not arguing that Calliborn could come second in the case of there not being a scratch, and never was. In the case of there not being a scratch then there is no concept of one of them coming before the other and my entire argument is moot. All I'm saying is that if a scratch happened, then the possibility of him being post-scratch is no less likely than him being pre-scratch, and as such, there is an entirely valid possibility where he did not, if fact, come first. Not to mention, as I've said, there are other ways that Caliborn's session could be scratched besides the Caliborn from the masterpiece doing it anyway, so even if there had to have been a scratch, that would mean that of the two it had to be done in Caliborn's time line, because his would've at least been possible, if unlikely. Unlike in Muse!Calliope's. Except that there are also ways Muse!Calliope could have done it (such as the pocket the player's planet idea), so it's not impossible for her to have done it. Unlikely, perhaps, but not any more unlikely than Caliborn doing it. Nothing. I'm saying that it makes no difference to the story whether Caliborn was the pre-scratch timeline of a scratched session, of if Caliborn and Calliope's timeline was split through other means, one potential alternative being that one of them is in an offshoot doomed timeline. See, that right there is what I wanted to be sure of. Caliborn cannot be in a doomed time line unless you want to argue that masterpiece!Caliborn and the one watching it weren't the same. And even then, it that'd make his ghost a loose end, unless he scratched. The whole point of Caliborn and Lord English's story is that their existence is what makes the alpha the alpha because he's ingratiated himself into all the folds and crannies of time that came before he was even born. Him being from a doomed time line would make no sense based on what we know as of now. Look, how are you not getting that I'M NOT IMPLYING CALIBORN'S TIMELINE WAS DOOMED. I'm saying that the idea of Caliborn being the pre-scratch branch of a scratched session would serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of the timeline being split by other means wouldn't, thus countering you saying the same thing about Calliope. That's it. The only reason I brought up doomed timelines at all is because that's the most likely alternative, and I agree that if that's the case then Calliope's is probably the doomed one. You misunderstand my intentions. I am not arguing that Calliope came first, I am arguing against your assertion that Caliborn came first. As I said earlier in this post, my argument is mainly that the idea that Muse!Calliope is pre-scratch is baseless. And my argument is mainly that the idea that Caliborn is pre-scratch is also baseless. True, and that does make a difference in the fate of Earth C. But the fate of Earth C is still open-ended otherwise. Whether it's open ended or not is not the point. The point is whether that's a loose end. And by your logic, if the Earth C kids and the masterpiece kids are the same, then what happens to Earth C is a loose end. What I'm saying is that the particular part where we don't know if the Earth C kids stick around or not is a loose end, but the part about how it ends up barron by the time the Cherubs arrive is not. First of all, the characters matter up to the point where they no longer appear in the story, have wrapped up their story arcs, and fulfilled all the non-red herring foreshadowing; they don't continue to matter forever (and even while they do matter, not everything that they do matters, things not shown in the story that don't have anything to do with foreshadowing or story arcs don't matter either). One could make the argument that, if all character acrs were completed and we learned who participated in the masterpiece, then everything you mentioned there would be an open ended without any loose ends for all the characters, albeit an unsatisfyingly. I'd like to point out that's it's arguable any more than three characters managed to wrap up a story arc, there is a ton of foreshadowing that has not been fulfilled but was instead unceremoniously dropped... True, but none of this stuff has to do with the fate of Earth C. ...and a character leaving a story doesn't necessarily automatically make them not important anymore. There are a ton of stories where a character's death triggers a whole bunch of plot, meaning that the character and what happened to them is still important even if they're not around anymore. Actually, because they're not around anymore. Except that's not what happened here. A character that went on to live their life and no longer has an effect on the story is not a loose end (at least, not for that reason; other reasons are still possible).
|
|
|
Post by ten 11 on Oct 19, 2017 22:57:03 GMT
See, that right there is what I wanted to be sure of. Caliborn cannot be in a doomed time line unless you want to argue that masterpiece!Caliborn and the one watching it weren't the same. And even then, it that'd make his ghost a loose end, unless he scratched. The whole point of Caliborn and Lord English's story is that their existence is what makes the alpha the alpha because he's ingratiated himself into all the folds and crannies of time that came before he was even born. Him being from a doomed time line would make no sense based on what we know as of now. Look, how are you not getting that I'M NOT IMPLYING CALIBORN'S TIMELINE WAS DOOMED. I'm saying that the idea of Caliborn being the pre-scratch branch of a scratched session would serve absolutely no purpose in the story that the explanation of the timeline being split by other means wouldn't, thus countering you saying the same thing about Calliope. That's it. The only reason I brought up doomed timelines at all is because that's the most likely alternative, and I agree that if that's the case then Calliope's is probably the doomed one. Well, it would give a reason to have the Alpha kids there. And actually, I think that would be a very nice time-loop fulfillment, if after the masterpiece, the Alpha kids decided to scratch Caliborn's session and created Calliope's in the process. I'd find that really cool, it would add to the theme of inevitability and everything being the cause of everything else. Calliope being pre-Scratch wouldn't be nearly as interesting, at least in the "time shenanigans" department.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Dec 13, 2017 22:38:53 GMT
What do you think would happen if we took the gene sequence for the First Guardian powers, and plugged that into the Genesis Tadpole's genome? What are the implications and consequences of a whole Universe itself having Green Sun powers?
|
|
|
Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Jan 9, 2018 4:58:11 GMT
I really want Creeper and The One Guy to meet up in real life and get coffee or something. I've spent the last year and a half now reading them arguing back and forth and possibly longer (if they've been going at it that long) without being aware. And it's neat how the conversation slowly evolves (VERY slowly evolves) until it's reached it's natural stalemate, when luckily for me obsidalicious/ten11/new people come to stir the pot and rile them up again.
My hype for Homestuck's Epilogue is no longer implicit to the comic but rather entirely based around my excitement for how these debates will continue to play out.
|
|
thatAnon
Greentike
what do people put in here anyway??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 9
Pronouns: she/her/hers
|
Post by thatAnon on Feb 10, 2018 11:53:21 GMT
What do you think would happen if we took the gene sequence for the First Guardian powers, and plugged that into the Genesis Tadpole's genome? What are the implications and consequences of a whole Universe itself having Green Sun powers? Well, it depends on what a Genesis frog actually does with all the time it has. Does it just like, ribbit and hop around in Paradox Space while all the stuff happens inside it? But I think that while it's completely against the nature of a benevolent Genesis frog to attack things, it could actually attack things like horrorterrors or other universes if they wanted to. Basically just a huge first guardian frog in a huge world. But inside it, maybe everything would be green and white? Maybe everyone inside will have first guardian powers? That would be interesting.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Feb 10, 2018 21:16:21 GMT
What do you think would happen if we took the gene sequence for the First Guardian powers, and plugged that into the Genesis Tadpole's genome? What are the implications and consequences of a whole Universe itself having Green Sun powers? Well, it depends on what a Genesis frog actually does with all the time it has. Does it just like, ribbit and hop around in Paradox Space while all the stuff happens inside it? But I think that while it's completely against the nature of a benevolent Genesis frog to attack things, it could actually attack things like horrorterrors or other universes if they wanted to. Basically just a huge first guardian frog in a huge world. But inside it, maybe everything would be green and white? Maybe everyone inside will have first guardian powers? That would be interesting. I don't think the frogs themselves typically do anything. I think they just sit in the session they spawned in and just ... exist, just be a physical representation of the universe. Then again, the only universe we've seen was born already dying, so who knows what the typical behaviour actually is. Speaking of dying however, Calliope does say that all universes are mortal and eventually perish, so I wonder if having the Green Sun power makes it fully immortal. As for the inhabitants I also have to wonder if it's not just the people, but the space-time itself that gets power boosted. Maybe the fundamental forces like gravity etc. get turned up to 11, and so while the beings are powerful, they appear to be normal in relation to their native habitat, like Kryptonians on Krypton. Then again, if the Green Sun is the power of two whole universes, but you're applying it to one whole universe, it may be that at that scale, the Universe is only three times it base power level because maths. Side thought: If the Green Sun power is about tapping into the potential power of cosmic carcasses, does that technically make it a type of necromancy?
|
|
|
Post by badatnames on Feb 12, 2018 22:59:42 GMT
Side thought: If the Green Sun power is about tapping into the potential power of cosmic carcasses, does that technically make it a type of necromancy? In as much as setting two cadavers on fire is necromancy.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Feb 13, 2018 1:03:21 GMT
Side thought: If the Green Sun power is about tapping into the potential power of cosmic carcasses, does that technically make it a type of necromancy? In as much as setting two cadavers on fire is necromancy. You're also utilising that fire as a power source. Necromancy is full of sacrificing lives/blood/souls/whatever for its dark magics.
|
|