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Post by Arashi500 on Jun 28, 2016 21:07:56 GMT
So am I the only one who's actually going to do the signature political party thing? I'mma doin' it.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 28, 2016 21:19:00 GMT
Tbh I don't mind the idea of divvying us up into parties like that. Maybe we could even design sig flags. ... o3o Ooh, I'm going to use that. Soon as I figure out how. Edit: Yay, I got it to work!
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 28, 2016 21:37:18 GMT
Yes, it is. His existence starts as a neverending stalemate with his counterpart, and his sole purpose is to lead the ever-evolving battle in Skaia. Once he wins or loses, there is no further point to being alive, and considering his sentience, he probably enjoys being alive. If he waged war for wars sake, then he wouldn't try to end the war would he? The fact that he defeats the White King shows that he wants the war to be over, and even under the most absurd traditions, the King's not going to sacrifice his citizens lives unnecessarily if there was a better way to win the war. The Prospitan Army may fight to heroically give the playeres enough time to come in and deal to stuff. Given that Lord English's soul was in Lil Cal's eyes, I think Jack was fully taken over by English and that Union Jack was literally another iteration of Lord English.
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The One Guy
Rust Maid
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Post by The One Guy on Jun 28, 2016 23:17:58 GMT
Ok, I've integrated my "party" into my signature!
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loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
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Post by loading on Jun 28, 2016 23:53:02 GMT
Regarding the jacks, I think it's safe to say that Lord Jack was in fact another Lord English. All of the jacks have been highly developed characters with a) "main character" screentime (as in, the reader bes them long enough to understand them) and b) clearly discernible goals. While CALIBORN meets condition a, LE doesn't really meet either. And when Jack got possessed, he stopped meeting those as well.
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cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
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Post by cookiefonster on Jun 29, 2016 1:43:57 GMT
So who else is with me in the salt party?
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
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Post by imglasses on Jun 29, 2016 1:50:55 GMT
So who else is with me in the salt party? I'm pretty salty. I should probably put that flag in my sig too.
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Post by yggdrasilsyeoman on Jun 29, 2016 2:13:57 GMT
So who else is with me in the salt party? I'm pretty salty. I should probably put that flag in my sig too. Ok, well I'm in the weird camp where I was sure right up until "THE END" that we had an unmistakable setup for both a "PSYCHE" aaaaand "LE WINS," and now I'm super salty about it. So I guess I'm salt, but it doesn't feel wholly accurate?
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
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Post by imglasses on Jun 29, 2016 2:23:44 GMT
I'm pretty salty. I should probably put that flag in my sig too. Ok, well I'm in the weird camp where I was sure right up until "THE END" that we had an unmistakable setup for both a "PSYCHE" aaaaand "LE WINS," and now I'm super salty about it. So I guess I'm salt, but it doesn't feel wholly accurate? That's how I originally felt, but I've given up on the psyche part by now. So now I just think LE wins and that's it. Which makes me salty. I also believe in the meta theory, sort of. I think the kids escaped the comic, but I think LE followed them out using the door that appeared on the juju when Vriska deployed it. But these are all just theories. I think we objectively were not given enough information to figure out what happened with a good amount of certainty. So I guess I should have four flags. Oh well.
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Post by [Meme Friend] TheOddISee on Jun 29, 2016 2:44:00 GMT
I need a "What about the Epilogue He promised us?" Party. I've been theorizing for th past few days (Like I have a habit of doing) and using the information provided, I feel the ending makes sense. Then again, Homestuck is all about mindless shenanigans and maybe we're all trying way too hard to come up with suitable reasonings. Who knows, maybe Hussie's gonna pull a Scott Cawthon and after the Epilogue we have to buy Hiveswap for more answers? From what I've seen, Joey has some relationship to the Condesce. (I'm using the Condesce as that seems to go back the farthest and connect the dots between John, Jade, Jane, Jake,etc. Maybe it's not and the sleepiness is getting to me ;P)
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by imglasses on Jun 29, 2016 3:00:32 GMT
I need a "What about the Epilogue He promised us?" Party. I've been theorizing for th past few days (Like I have a habit of doing) and using the information provided, I feel the ending makes sense. Then again, Homestuck is all about mindless shenanigans and maybe we're all trying way too hard to come up with suitable reasonings. Who knows, maybe Hussie's gonna pull a Scott Cawthon and after the Epilogue we have to buy Hiveswap for more answers? From what I've seen, Joey has some relationship to the Condesce. (I'm using the Condesce as that seems to go back the farthest and connect the dots between John, Jade, Jane, Jake,etc. Maybe it's not and the sleepiness is getting to me ;P) Expecting the epilogue to be the real resolution to the story seems similar enough to the "psyche" theory to me, I think. The only difference is that the epilogue isn't a surprise, though its contents might be. What's with the Condesce always trying to be the great-grandparent of black haired teens, anyway?
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Post by [Meme Friend] TheOddISee on Jun 29, 2016 4:03:05 GMT
Beats me. Troll families can get weird. Basically John, Jade, Jane, and Jake are all part troll. So Karkat's mutant candy red blood is possibly related to this, or foreshadowing.
Anyway. I guess I'll update my Sig tomorrow with Psyche and The Everything's Fine endings.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Jun 29, 2016 4:25:14 GMT
Inspired by my House of Cards Party, I made this:
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Post by [Meme Friend] TheOddISee on Jun 29, 2016 5:00:52 GMT
Inspired by my House of Cards Party, I made this: It's BEAUTIFUL :^y
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Post by Blaperile on Jun 29, 2016 11:01:44 GMT
I'm in the everything's fine party. I guess with a smidgen of "everything is canon"? Though we do see the effects of his devestation and destruction, which is hundreds if not thousands of destroyed Dreambubbles and an entirely shattered Furthest Ring. Big philosophical question: If someone claims to have done something Evil, but no-one has any idea what they actually did, and no-one seems to be negatively affected by what they did, is it actually Evil? Because that's what the Destruction of the Furthest Ring really is. Yes it looks bad because of the crack-like appearance and the fact that it's English doing it. But beyond that, what is it? We've no idea what the Destruction of the Furthest Ring actually means, and the only people who could possibly be affected are the Ghosts who shouldn't have been around anyway. So this, to me, cannot serve to demonstrate the Evilness and Danger of Lord English, because without any Context or Explanation, it's all just pretty lights without meaning or consequence. Other than cracking the Furthest Ring and killing a bunch of ghosts, it also takes away the place for dreamers to dream in after they lose their dream self. Meaning that if there are no Dreambubbles left anymore, all dreamers will get to have horrible terrible dreams (pun intended) for the rest of eternity, dreaming with the Horrorterrors, such as Karkat and Jade's original horrifying experiences with it. Lord English is also killing the Horrorterrors, one of the primary sources of information for Derse Dreamers. If he keeps on going at that, soon in future SBURB sessions it would become very difficult for Derse Dreamers to gain any more advice while they're dreaming. The cracking of the Furthest Ring causes it to become more stable, meaning that it becomes a lot less impenetrable. Meaning people could easily go and leave their sessions and perhaps end up in different sessions, even though that's definitely not the purpose of the game, and could definitely cause some mayhem. Not to mention that while Lord English is causing all these cracks but hasn't destroyed all Dreambubbles yet, it apparently allows the remaining ghosts to exit their bubbles, something they're definitely not supposed to, re-entering the land of the living apparently. Lord English is bringing SBURB itself completely out of balance. Does he actually hate him, or did he simply recognise him as a threat, like anyone worthy of the title 'Big Bad' ought to have done? He specifically sought him out in his building and killed him even though Andrew did nothing but throw an empty gun at his head and basically surrender himself. Not to mention that in the Dreambubbles in one of the last scenes he seems to be specifically walking towards Andrew. I think he still just hates Andrew, because he writes the story and Lord English wants to be able to bend the story to how he wants it to go. We've no proof of this. His treatment of Alternia could've been A) A warped attempt to make them better, stronger or B) Simply the brutal means to make the semi-effective Sburb players he needed. The fact that The Condesce needs to be creating the Matriorb in secret, in defiance of Lord English, says enough to me that Lord English wants the Troll race completely wiped out and doesn't want it back. All things considered, Gamzee wasn't actually angry all that often. And for that matter, how do you know Lord English is? There's no way to read emotion of the guy. Just because he's breaking stuff doesn't necessarily mean he's angry. Well okay, I might have been exaggerating there. But he still looks very angry most of the time, just like Gamzee does when he completely flips his shit in the Game Over timeline. The aggressiveness he shows seems very similar to me. See again the point about Lord English supposedly being defeated by such a straightforward and hare-brained scheme. If you really believe this, then you ought to join us pessimists in the English-Wins party. But again, where did we see definitive proof of English actually being smart. As far as I can tell, the extent of English's planning was to instruct various minions to sort shit out. He instructs them in such a way that it paves the way to his arrival, and he influences events so that his creation can happen. He instructed the Handmaid to go to specific points in time to fuck shit up, and he instructed The Condesce what she needed to do in the B2 universe and session. I think he needs to be pretty smart to pull all that off. But the fact that he's smart doesn't mean that Lord English being surprised by the Plot Hole is impossible. Even Arquiusprite, who is clearly part supercomputer, can be surprised by things such as Davepetasprite^2's existence. Just the same way, Lord English might have been confident he'd be capable of handling what the juju throws at him. But the fact that he's too confident doesn't mean he's not smart. He believes things will always go his way, so he'd have assumed there was no way this juju could defeat him. Him enlisting others to do things for him honestly just makes him sound even more ineffectual. That's not to say that he's completely powerless, because he's clearly quite formidable, but the point still stands that many of his supposed underlings have managed to do far more awful things than he has, some of them of their own accord. It's like how it is with a criminal gang of mobsters. Sure you can take down the lowest agents who are doing the actual evil, but you're only fighting the symptoms and not the cause then, which is the guy who is leading that gang, who can just go and replace his agents with new ones. You need to take out the mastermind, the brains of the operation, the root of the troubles, even if that guy himself didn't do much other than tell his agents what to do. The fact that he himself doesn't do much, doesn't mean he's not important to take out. That's the way how I see it with Lord English too. And seeing as he even already has a LITERAL gang of mobsters, I personally think it's not too far off. I'd be hesitant to attribute the destruction of Universe A entirely to Spades Slick. Yes, he pulled the trigger, shot Snowman through the heart and caused the universe to go kaboom, but it wasn't the result of any powers or abilities that were unique to him, which I think is what's most important here. Doc Scratch tied the lifespan of the universe to Snowman, and Slick just happened to be in the right place at the right time. He could have been replaced by Matchsticks, Ms Paint, a shale imp, Rufio, Fefetasprite or Nanna Egbert, and the result would have been exactly the same. Sure, I agree that Spades Slick could have been replaced by someone else. I just wanted to point out that destroying a universe is quite a bit more devestation than anything The Condesce, Jade, John or B2 Jack ever did. The very first time Lord English was mentioned, it was stated that he is, in the comic's words, "rumored to be killable only through a number of glitches and exploits in spacetime". A magic chest is most certainly neither a glitch nor an exploit, and I don't think blowing up the sun counts either. It's just too straightforward to be a glitch or exploit or whatever. Actually killing him would probably require something like that yes. But if he gets sucked into The Green Sun's black hole, that's not killing him, that's banishing him to a place he can't get out of.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 13:24:43 GMT
The very first time Lord English was mentioned, it was stated that he is, in the comic's words, "rumored to be killable only through a number of glitches and exploits in spacetime". A magic chest is most certainly neither a glitch nor an exploit, and I don't think blowing up the sun counts either. It's just too straightforward to be a glitch or exploit or whatever. Actually killing him would probably require something like that yes. But if he gets sucked into The Green Sun's black hole, that's not killing him, that's banishing him to a place he can't get out of. except there's nothing that suggests him being unable to get out
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Post by legendary on Jun 29, 2016 16:35:05 GMT
Other than cracking the Furthest Ring and killing a bunch of ghosts, it also takes away the place for dreamers to dream in after they lose their dream self. Meaning that if there are no Dreambubbles left anymore, all dreamers will get to have horrible terrible dreams (pun intended) for the rest of eternity, dreaming with the Horrorterrors, such as Karkat and Jade's original horrifying experiences with it. So... he's bringing Sburb back into balance? Except there's no linear time in the FR. All the Horrorterrors have to die sooner or later, but their deaths don't mean that their twisted lifespans couldn't be spent helping an infinity of children - especially since there's got to be an infinite number of HTs out there in the void. How is this evil? A2/B1/B2 were all tangled together, supposedly for the better. We don't know what let Calliope exit her bubble. This is speculation. Well he sure failed at that since we know that they spread out to multiple planets in Universe C before he was even born. Doesn't he just have Doc Scratch to do that for him? The Handmaid was likely just sent back in time to him once she got cursed, and likely gave the Condesce her instructions per Doc Scratch's omniscience. Without the cue ball, LE seems to be as dumb as a sack of overused metaphors.
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cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
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Post by cookiefonster on Jun 29, 2016 18:24:47 GMT
I am now also in the "I don't fucking know" party as indicated by my signature.
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Post by Gab on Jun 29, 2016 19:50:57 GMT
So am I the only one who's actually going to do the signature political party thing? You know what they say about that question. Assuming the maximum number of flags is implicitly two by the examples I've seen, I've opted for a particularly confusing and apparently contradictory couple. Maybe it's a tad disingenuous, because I don't know if I actually believe that he wins. At the least, I do believe things have gone as he's wanted up to this point, except for the green sun exploding. Given that Lord English's soul was in Lil Cal's eyes, I think Jack was fully taken over by English and that Union Jack was literally another iteration of Lord English. Like I said. Some people go for this interpretation, I personally do not. It doesn't quite line up for me. Plus, how B2 Jack fights and how English fights in Collide are very different. except there's nothing that suggests him being unable to get out Nothing to suggest he's capable of escaping either.
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Post by drifloon on Jun 29, 2016 21:40:09 GMT
What if I completely believe the ending is terrible but I'm not actually all that angry about it any more at this point
Does that make me like a fringe member of the salt party or what
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cookiefonster
Dead
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Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by cookiefonster on Jun 29, 2016 21:42:51 GMT
What if I completely believe the ending is terrible but I'm not actually all that angry about it any more at this point Does that make me like a fringe member of the salt party or what I thnk that would still put you in the salt party.
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Post by BookwyrmBOTPH on Jun 29, 2016 21:46:45 GMT
So am I the only one who's actually going to do the signature political party thing? I just added one. It might help to have the flag link to the post ( [url=http://omegaupdate.freeforums.net/post/21092][img]FLAG URL[/img][/url] ) so that people know where to find them and so people know what each flag means, since this post will be buried in a day or two and I don't really know if it warrants its own thread. You know, I think a thread might actually be a cool thing to do, since the little signature flags/flairs can be used for more than just End Party affiliation. I made one for my fanventure, and I think they could be a fun addition to forum life. People could do them for all sorts of things, like fan projects, fan adventures, ship parties, etc. Maybe I'll put up a thread in the Artbound forum section.
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Post by Neptz on Jun 29, 2016 23:09:48 GMT
might as well join the dumb signature party lmao
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 29, 2016 23:30:38 GMT
He specifically sought him out in his building and killed him even though Andrew did nothing but throw an empty gun at his head and basically surrender himself. Not to mention that in the Dreambubbles in one of the last scenes he seems to be specifically walking towards Andrew. I think he still just hates Andrew, because he writes the story and Lord English wants to be able to bend the story to how he wants it to go. What do you mean 'all Hussie did was throw a gun'. You said it yourself: Hussie, as the author, has an incredible amount of power over Lord English. Power which any up-and-coming villain would try to mitigate/eliminate. And the fact that Hussie was a Threat doesn't necessarily mean he actually hates him. If Lord English had said "Nothing personal" right before shooting him, neither the content nor the tone of the scene would've changed. Just look at how he dealt to Ms. Paint: With the strength in those arms of his, if he really were angry, his blow could've shattered her little head like an egg. But instead he went for a (comparatively)much softer blow to just get her out of the way while he dealt to business. Creating oneself via a time loop isn't actually that complex. As Dave said, all you really need to be is not retarded. While you are right that Smart and Sensible aren't always the same thing, we know that Caliborn knew that the JuJu was a threat to him, so why didn't English? The way he dispatched Hussie without fanfare shows us that he's not one for gloating and bragging and other cartoonishly villainous cliches. So even if he thought he could handle the JuJu, why wait for it like he was taunting/challenging them? Why not take the opportunity to have another go at the ghosts now that they're all lined up and moving slowly? The other possibility was that the JuJu was threat to him(and he was paralysed with fear or whatever), in which case, how would someone that smart so obviously lead them to it? Like I said, either way you spin it, if you think Lord English is Lil Hal Smart, then he wanted/intended Vriska to bring him the JuJu. Of course, another possibility is that any smarts you see from Lord English is a result of the Cue Ball rather than Lil Hal, casting further doubts on what English Personality is, if he even has one. As for all other points, I'm in agreement with Legendary here: Everything Lord English was doing to the Furthest Ring was either A) Undoing the changes that the HorrorTerrors made or B) Actually improving the bullshit mechanics/limits of Sburb.
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Post by Blaperile on Jun 30, 2016 13:22:10 GMT
except there's nothing that suggests him being unable to get out How can you escape a black hole after you've been sucked in? I mean, not that I'm an expert on the matter in any way, but one of the general things I've heard about black holes is that you can't get out once you've entered it. So... he's bringing Sburb back into balance? In any case, it's definitely for the worst for any future SBURB players. Except there's no linear time in the FR. All the Horrorterrors have to die sooner or later, but their deaths don't mean that their twisted lifespans couldn't be spent helping an infinity of children - especially since there's got to be an infinite number of HTs out there in the void. Except the cracking of the Furthest Ring is stabilizing all the aspects out there, including Time. This suggests to me that from this point on, time will progress in a linear way meaning that all future SBURB sessions will be without the Green Sun, a stabilized Furthest Ring, and a decreasing amount of Horrorterrors and Dreambubbles. How is this evil? A2/B1/B2 were all tangled together, supposedly for the better. That was an extraordinary group of sessions though, and it required a lot of complex circumstances for them to tangle together like that though. With a stabilized Furthest Ring it suddenly becomes very easy to travel through it, for anyone. I'm not saying that this particular thing is evil, just that it can cause chaos. We don't know what let Calliope exit her bubble. This is speculation. Not just Calliope, but Jade too. One being dead, and the other a dreamer, both in a state that would normally prohibit them from leaving their bubble. And Calliope herself said she was waiting for her other self to arrive as a signal that the Furthest Ring was becoming navigable, suggesting this is what allowed her to leave her bubble. Doesn't he just have Doc Scratch to do that for him? The Handmaid was likely just sent back in time to him once she got cursed, and likely gave the Condesce her instructions per Doc Scratch's omniscience. Without the cue ball, LE seems to be as dumb as a sack of overused metaphors. Doc Scratch suggests Lord English and the Handmaid worked together much closer than that: He also specifically states that those are Lord English's orders and not his own. What do you mean 'all Hussie did was throw a gun'. You said it yourself: Hussie, as the author, has an incredible amount of power over Lord English. Power which any up-and-coming villain would try to mitigate/eliminate. And the fact that Hussie was a Threat doesn't necessarily mean he actually hates him. If Lord English had said "Nothing personal" right before shooting him, neither the content nor the tone of the scene would've changed. Just look at how he dealt to Ms. Paint: With the strength in those arms of his, if he really were angry, his blow could've shattered her little head like an egg. But instead he went for a (comparatively)much softer blow to just get her out of the way while he dealt to business. All I'm saying is, I don't think it mattered at all what Andrew did there. Lord English just decided to follow up on the hate Caliborn used to have for Andrew, and kill him like he promised he would. By that point in his chronological timeline, both Caliborn and Doc Scratch could easily take over the narration and bend it to show what they wanted to show while Lord English himself had inevitability at his side, so that Andrew's power by that point was way inferior to his own. Andrew definitely wasn't a threat for him anymore, not since Caliborn gained complete control over the narrative. So there was no reason for him to take Andrew out anymore, except if it was for personal reasons like Caliborn's original hatred for him. While you are right that Smart and Sensible aren't always the same thing, we know that Caliborn knew that the JuJu was a threat to him, so why didn't English? I think Caliborn / Lord English simply always assumed the Plot Hole would release the B1 Kids. Caliborn would have been incapable of handling them in a fight (which is the reason why he captured them in the first place), while Lord English is infintely stronger and would see no reason why he wouldn't be capable of handling them in a fight. In fact, perhaps he deliberately 'helped' Vriska get the Plot Hole juju so that she would use it against him, so that he could finally take out the B1 Kids for good. So even if he thought he could handle the JuJu, why wait for it like he was taunting/challenging them? Why not take the opportunity to have another go at the ghosts now that they're all lined up and moving slowly? Perhaps because he personally wanted to crush their hopes of ever defeating him, by making them all watch as he takes out the B1 Kids.
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