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Post by Blaperile on Sept 9, 2016 17:14:28 GMT
Did anyone actually "love" Griska though? There were people who had a touch of pity for her. There are people who felt she was a slightly less shitty person if only because she was unlikely to kill anymore people. But I don't really recall anyone actually liking Griska. Especially not if you're trying to compare her to her polarisation in the Fandom: Griska is most definitely not a manifestation of the parts of Vriska people liked. She really just served to demonstrate how psychologically fragile she is, to show us how much she relies on ego and power to be a person who actually accomplishes things. Which is a fact that really didn't need to be pointed out to us. Sure people did. I remember plenty of people liking where she was going with first having been abandoned by her friends and seeing someone make the same mistakes as her, and then finally learning to be actually happy. I mean, I remember some negative reactions from when she kissed Meenah, but in general I remember people being mostly positive about how her character was developing. And also when the other Vriska completely tore her down, other than people becoming more angry at that Vriska I mostly remember a lot of people growing much more sympathy for Griska (though with some exceptions feeling the opposite way). That's not to say she was perfect, far from it. She still had plenty of flaws, including new ones, and probably needed to become more of a balance between her old and new self instead, but she'd made great improvements towards becoming a better person anyway.
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Post by ashercrane on Sept 9, 2016 17:20:01 GMT
I liked where she seemed to be going when she saw her mistakes and all, but when she started becoming way to dependent on Meenah, and especially how she acted when Vriska tore her down... Griska had stopped really feeling like Vriska anymore. Like Meenah said, she had changed. I wouldn't honestly even necessarily say she was even a better person as much. Like, in relative terms, yes, she was nicer and all, but actually becoming better as a person, and developing positively as a character, she just seemed to have traded one set of flaws for another set of flaws.
Also, it's weird knowing people actually liked Griska, this is the first I've heard of anyone who liked her at all.
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Post by obsidalicious on Sept 10, 2016 7:51:58 GMT
Here's the thing about that, I think. Homestuck has definitely never been traditional. It's never approached anything the way a typical story or even webcomic would, in the interest of parodying video game format. It has also been particularly delighted to play hard ball with the plot, jumping frenetically back and forth in time, creating convoluted time loops, etc. you know how it goes. And that's just the thing. Homestuck never did things in a way that made it easy to understand, and that's exactly what brought so many people on board to begin with. People were interested in solving the Homestuck puzzle. Which is why it makes no sense to me that things would change just because the story has dragged out a few years or that it's become radically more popular. I mean, I'm sure these facts have resulted in modifications to the approach. But no story Andrew has ever told was about appealing to the lowest common denominator or doing what people wanted him to do. And I think he as an artist probably finds it more rewarding and compelling to create an ending for such a popular series that not everyone is happy with, that they all have to sit down and discuss and think about, or even just thumbs down and walk away from. I think that is the reaction he prefers than if he just wrapped everything up in a nice bow and the audience essentially goes "yep, that sure is a story that ended correctly. good work." Keep in mind that 'Story' and 'Storytelling' are not the same thing. Homestuck's way(s) of presenting the story are certainly unusual for the reasons you listed, but that doesn't make the story itself unconventional. Once we unravel the tangled perspectives, once we smooth out the format changes, the actual Story, on the underlying thematic levels is pretty standard stuff: Heroes confronted with a vast challenge, becoming better people in the process, Bad Guys are afoot and need to be stopped, friendship is good etc. etc.. At least it was up until the the Retcon, but using the retcon as an example of Homestuck's unconventional story in response to people complaining about the retcon is a null argument for obvious reasons.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Sept 10, 2016 14:31:17 GMT
I liked where she seemed to be going when she saw her mistakes and all, but when she started becoming way to dependent on Meenah, and especially how she acted when Vriska tore her down... Griska had stopped really feeling like Vriska anymore. Like Meenah said, she had changed. I wouldn't honestly even necessarily say she was even a better person as much. Like, in relative terms, yes, she was nicer and all, but actually becoming better as a person, and developing positively as a character, she just seemed to have traded one set of flaws for another set of flaws. Also, it's weird knowing people actually liked Griska, this is the first I've heard of anyone who liked her at all. I agree a lot regarding the opinion that (Vriska) became a better person when she really traded sets of flaws.
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Post by Blaperile on Sept 10, 2016 16:01:25 GMT
Here's the thing about that, I think. Homestuck has definitely never been traditional. It's never approached anything the way a typical story or even webcomic would, in the interest of parodying video game format. It has also been particularly delighted to play hard ball with the plot, jumping frenetically back and forth in time, creating convoluted time loops, etc. you know how it goes. And that's just the thing. Homestuck never did things in a way that made it easy to understand, and that's exactly what brought so many people on board to begin with. People were interested in solving the Homestuck puzzle. Which is why it makes no sense to me that things would change just because the story has dragged out a few years or that it's become radically more popular. I mean, I'm sure these facts have resulted in modifications to the approach. But no story Andrew has ever told was about appealing to the lowest common denominator or doing what people wanted him to do. And I think he as an artist probably finds it more rewarding and compelling to create an ending for such a popular series that not everyone is happy with, that they all have to sit down and discuss and think about, or even just thumbs down and walk away from. I think that is the reaction he prefers than if he just wrapped everything up in a nice bow and the audience essentially goes "yep, that sure is a story that ended correctly. good work." Keep in mind that 'Story' and 'Storytelling' are not the same thing. Homestuck's way(s) of presenting the story are certainly unusual for the reasons you listed, but that doesn't make the story itself unconventional. Once we unravel the tangled perspectives, once we smooth out the format changes, the actual Story, on the underlying thematic levels is pretty standard stuff: Heroes confronted with a vast challenge, becoming better people in the process, Bad Guys are afoot and need to be stopped, friendship is good etc. etc.. At least it was up until the the Retcon, but using the retcon as an example of Homestuck's unconventional story in response to people complaining about the retcon is a null argument for obvious reasons. I wouldn't really say the retcon is the only "unconventional" part of Homestuck's story. How about the influence that the fandom has had on the story? I can't think of any other story out there (other than the other MSPA adventures) that would have looked so different if it weren't for the fandom. We were the ones to give the main characters their names. The commands we gave them lead them to taking certain actions. Theories and fan-art and music and cosplays we made got referenced in the story. The behaviour of the fandom (and anti-fandom or whatever you call it) shaped the Cherubs. Due to the fandom's beliefs PM turned out to be a female if I'm not mistaken. The characters of Jack Noir, CD, DD and HB all originated from a fan-donation for Problem Sleuth. The fandom's interpretations of A2 Trolls shaped entire personalities for some of the A1 Trolls. And I'm pretty sure there's still a bunch of things I'm missing here.
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Post by obsidalicious on Sept 10, 2016 21:25:47 GMT
I wouldn't really say the retcon is the only "unconventional" part of Homestuck's story. How about the influence that the fandom has had on the story? I can't think of any other story out there (other than the other MSPA adventures) that would have looked so different if it weren't for the fandom. We were the ones to give the main characters their names. The commands we gave them lead them to taking certain actions. Theories and fan-art and music and cosplays we made got referenced in the story. The behaviour of the fandom (and anti-fandom or whatever you call it) shaped the Cherubs. Due to the fandom's beliefs PM turned out to be a female if I'm not mistaken. The characters of Jack Noir, CD, DD and HB all originated from a fan-donation for Problem Sleuth. The fandom's interpretations of A2 Trolls shaped entire personalities for some of the A1 Trolls. And I'm pretty sure there's still a bunch of things I'm missing here. But none of those things have an effect on the Story's structure itself though do they? March Madness Eridan didn't subvert the Monomyth did he(she?)? The most amount of actual influence on the story the fandom had was through the commands, and given how early in the stroy Hussie ended that, it's probably more accurate to say that, more-orless, all we got to do was set up the world, while Hussie was the one who actually ran the coherent narrative. So while Homestuck may be Unconventional in this sense, it doesn't exactly debunk my argument does it? I can't imagine anyone would say "Why were you expecting normal character arcs in a story that uses the fandom's music?" as any sort of sensible rebuttal to those people complaining about the Retcon's direction.
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Post by Blaperile on Sept 11, 2016 9:08:31 GMT
But none of those things have an effect on the Story's structure itself though do they? March Madness Eridan didn't subvert the Monomyth did he(she?)? The most amount of actual influence on the story the fandom had was through the commands, and given how early in the stroy Hussie ended that, it's probably more accurate to say that, more-orless, all we got to do was set up the world, while Hussie was the one who actually ran the coherent narrative. So while Homestuck may be Unconventional in this sense, it doesn't exactly debunk my argument does it? I can't imagine anyone would say "Why were you expecting normal character arcs in a story that uses the fandom's music?" as any sort of sensible rebuttal to those people complaining about the Retcon's direction. I didn't mean what I said to be any sort of rebuttal to the retcon's direction and the character arcs thing, I just wanted to give examples to prove that the retcon is not the only unconvential thing about Homestuck's story. For actual structure of the story I find it harder to find arguments for so I'm keeping out of that part of the discussion.
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Post by Gab on Sept 11, 2016 16:48:59 GMT
I liked where she seemed to be going when she saw her mistakes and all, but when she started becoming way to dependent on Meenah, and especially how she acted when Vriska tore her down... Griska had stopped really feeling like Vriska anymore. Like Meenah said, she had changed. I wouldn't honestly even necessarily say she was even a better person as much. Like, in relative terms, yes, she was nicer and all, but actually becoming better as a person, and developing positively as a character, she just seemed to have traded one set of flaws for another set of flaws. You're not wrong. It WAS a step in the right direction, but a long way from being truly for the better. Honestly, I think this was a pretty logical second step for her to get stuck on for a while. If she's not trying to stroke her ego by doing dynamic incredible actions, then she's latching on for dear life to her matesprit. She was in the relationship because of how good it made her feel about herself more than anything. Once that bubble popped and she reunited with Terezi, she might have been in a position to move on from that and closer towards a more wholesale positive change. She even would have become more like her more outgoing former self again, but with the self-awareness and sensitivity of her later self. It's really a shame the story ended before that could become a reality. Well that's internet culture for you. Keep in mind that 'Story' and 'Storytelling' are not the same thing. Homestuck's way(s) of presenting the story are certainly unusual for the reasons you listed, but that doesn't make the story itself unconventional. Once we unravel the tangled perspectives, once we smooth out the format changes, the actual Story, on the underlying thematic levels is pretty standard stuff: Heroes confronted with a vast challenge, becoming better people in the process, Bad Guys are afoot and need to be stopped, friendship is good etc. etc.. At least it was up until the the Retcon, but using the retcon as an example of Homestuck's unconventional story in response to people complaining about the retcon is a null argument for obvious reasons. That's a good point. And it's definitely for the better that it's a mostly conventional story deep down. I think if it had been an unconventional story told in an unconventional way, that might have been a little too odd and repelling of the story-reading masses. Even if it ends a little vaguely and does whatever the retcon qualifies as (I guess deus ex machina? sure), it's ultimately still a pretty standard story, once you put the pieces in the right order. But thinking of it in those terms is also a little too limiting. What a story is about and how it is told inform one another. Like, a lot of your standard Hero's Journey check marks are tallied by Sburb, a mass-produced entity which does this regularly and rather dispassionately, when you break it down. It even boils down certain cinematic tropes to abusable game mechanics that are almost never dwelled upon by the people who use them. Kiss a corpse to save their dream self. Willingly dying to become a god, who then can only die if it makes a good story. That kind of thing. A more conventional story you'd think would try to make the circumstances of the hero's journey somewhat more unique and emotional, and while Homestuck focuses on a very unique session, the circumstances that make it that way are far from poignant to the kids. Responsibility is constantly taken from them in regards to the bigger picture, returned only in spirit seemingly only to wrap up a nice neat little story bow. Creating Bec Noir was a freak accident. Creating the green sun was planned by an outside orchestrator who otherwise barely had anything to do with them. Lord English, though their creation by default, took hold of his own destiny and traveled a journey far vaster than any other character. The characters we focus on are constantly in over their heads, united only by mutual helplessness. The only thing that has ever motivated them to take action has been to get clear of the vast swirling shitstorm and live in peace, only ever obligated to actually face true villainy out of practical reasons or a lackluster sense of duty. Except of course for Vriska, who as we just discussed was not exactly in it for your standard heroic reasons. I would say Homestuck at its core tells a somewhat conventional story about kids growing up. It shows them faced with adversity and not really knowing who they are or who they're supposed to be. They meet peers with whom they are first at odds with but soon become close friends, and together make an effort to rise beyond the chaotic medley they've been trapped in and start fresh. You could perhaps look at it as an extended metaphor for teenage years. Pretty much the entire plot sums up the confusing feelings you go through as you're becoming an adult. The ending represents a new beginning, one where the kids are actually in a state of control over their future, and ACTUALLY accountable for the things that happen from that point on. That's a bit of a loose theory though. In that case, all the plot stuff and villains kind of lose focus as obstacles not very relevant to the kid, and walking away from them is as much success as is defeating them outright. I would say much of that has more to do with the other kind of story Homestuck tells, the elaborate creation myth centering around Sburb. Lord English and his adventures in that case become something like a mythological figure you'd read about in the epic tales of a religion, like the devil in christianity, or the ragnarok event in norse mythology. All of which falls somewhat askew of a more standard story about heroes and their journeys, but such is the point of all the worldbuilding throughout the comic. Anyway, I somehow doubt you're actually talking about any of that. To me it sounds like you're more concerned with defending your right to be angry about something. Which is not a thing I can really take from you. If you don't like a direction the plot took, then that's all their is to it. Don't be surprised if bringing the subject up invites opinions you don't agree with, and don't let me give you the impression the voicing of those opinions invalidates your own.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Sept 14, 2016 19:37:52 GMT
What I said was that the sessions involved in LE's creation are, (A/B/C) but everybody else whose sessions are not directly involved with that don't have to worry about that particular loop because they don't have to do much (if anything) to contribute to it. So they'd be on another branch. (But on the same tree, as if Li'l Cal made his way there...) Plus, time is not linear in Homestuck. Even if the scratch destroys the earth, that destruction doesn't necessarily have to catch up to everyone on it until after they've left, which is why Jade and Jake are able to communicate, and Roxy is able to kidnap Jaspers, and the trolls are able to communicate with future and past versions of themselves. So what happens if one of them scratches? How can they destroy what's already been destroyed? If by them you mean other players, again, time is not linear. There's no 'already destroyed' because if that were the case, Jade and Jake wouldn't have been able to communicate because Jade should've already have left Earth before Jake was born. All outside are left ambiguous because there are far, far less loops outside the game sessions than inside them. Which makes sense, as even the time lines inside the games aren't all explored to their ends. (Aranea's time line, Gamzee goes beserk time line, for example.) But the fact that there are even loops that need to be fulfilled by people before they entered the game suggests the same rules apply. Otherwise, what's the point of their being any loop there at all? Timelines in the Intermission are handled very differently from timelines within the session. Taken out of the context of being within Homestuck, you would expect multiple timelines to exist concurrently. Now put hat within Homestuck, and there's still nothing to indicate that's not the case unless you force them into in-session time travel rules. They're not handled that differently at all. Both intermission and non-intermission time crap can create time clones and allow the traveler to jump from one time line to another. Doze slows things down the way Aradia did to stop Noir from killing her. I only came up with this concept to point out that the same things might not split every time line because again, not every session is directly involved with LE's creation, so a paradox happening because someone in another session died before they could create the frog that LE grows up in is not going to happen, so their time line is not going to split for the same reasons. And yet you had need to came up with such rule to allow that. You had to come up with a way not even hinted at in Homestuck to get around the fact that the system you believe to be true would not be able to explain it with multiple timelines. It's not a rule, it's a metaphor. And it makes sense that if a paradox is what splits the time line, the same events wouldn't cause paradoxes in different sessions because differents sessions would have different time loops they'd have to fulfill. Like I've said, no other session is responsible for breeding LE's Frog, so other players failing to breed their Frog wouldn't necessarily cause a paradox. That's all I'm saying here. It doesn't matter if very little would've changed. Something still would have. It's not a loop because it changes something really big and significant, it's a loop because it influences itself into coming into being. But even taking that aside, we can't actually know if very little would've changed anyway. True. Of course, if the situation I described had happened, the same would have been true for it. If I'm remembering correctly, one of the Daves in the situation you described was already doomed, and Davesprite's time line illustrated for us that if a Doomed version of yourself hands you stuff, you don't have to make it and give it to them to complete a loop. Multiple characters referring to time lines as doomed, doomed versions of themselves being killed off, Doomed!Dream!Rose ceasing to exist instead of merely dying, multiple characters referring to the alpha as 'the' alpha and there being no hint at all that multiple alpha's are possible aside from possibly through John's retcon ability....all of that points to time lines that don't serve the purpose of Paradox Space being doomed and cut. There are far more hints and there is far more evidence pointing to there being one alpha and a bunch of doomed time lines then there is for there being multiple alphas and no doomed time lines. That shows that in those cases (all happening within the context of a session) it has happened that way, not that paradox space is unable to handle such a situation. You could just as easily argue that a Sburb session can't handle more than one alpha timeline (and I am), and it'd explain all that just as well. It's within the context of four sessions. And it's our only example of how it works. Anything that ignores or goes against that example would be conjecture. And again, 'nothing says it can't happen' is not an argument. This is like religious folk trying to make non-religious folk prove that God doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you for what you claim, man. Let me point out what I was replying to: There's nothing that suggests Paradox Space can keep a bunch of time lines lying around and just needs to pick one to be the alpha. You were doing exactly what you're accusing me of and my response was to point out how weak it was. (Granted, you explained yourself further in this post, but that explanation wasn't there at the time I posted that.) Pointing out there's no evidence for what you're asserting ≠ saying something must have happened because nothing says it can't. You're claiming something but providing nothing to support it. I'm just pointing that out. I don't see why. S==>b itself is one great big reproduction mechanism. It would make thematic sense if multiple time lines were the equivalent of irregular cell growth. Except that we don't see what you're saying is analogous to cancer in Homestuck? Oh, but we don't see that it's not, right? So that means it's as good as true. /not sincere. It doesn't really matter because I'm just spit balling anyway, but it would be thematically consistent. How is it assumed when it doesn't happen where it should? Yes, he does need to say that. Or show us that. Because he's the author of the web comic and if he wants us to understand that something is possible, he has to show us that it is. If he doesn't, it at best leaves it ambiguous, and at worst leaves us thinking it's just not a thing that's possible. It's the whole reason he has Scratch tell Rose there's more than one way to go God Tier and he shows Aradia reviving due to her dreamslab. It would've been cheap and stupid to have Dave and Rose go God Tier when they were supposed to die destroying the Green Sun if he hadn't previously established that that was possible. If this was something he wanted us to know was possible, he had at least two opportunities to show it to us, and he blew them both off. So I'm taking the comic at it's word there. He didn't show it because such a possibility was irrelevant to the story. He didn't need to show it because he's provided a method to split the timeline (go back in tome to where you weren't present in your own timeline) where there's nothing stopping someone from doing it in a doomed timeline. It doesn't matter why he didn't show it. He didn't show it. So there's nothing that suggests it can happen. I'm going to base my theories on things that have been established in the comic, because anything else is just headcanon. As I said, if the time line is split by paradoxes, then logically, Davesprite's time line should've split more than once. Since it didn't, doomed time lines can't split more than once, or else it would have. In any case, like I said, based on Davesprite's time line that wouldn't make a split. If it doesn't split then what happens? How would a single timeline be able to handle someone being there and not being there at the same time? There being more than one Dave around I'd guess. As I've said, it makes the most sense that the reason a time line is split is something that caused a paradox happened in the alpha and was then split off from it into a doomed time line. This is the thematic evidence for that. "It makes the most sense" is not an acceptable answer. Why does it make the most sense? Because we can go back, look at the story, and see that just about every time was clearly split because of a paradox. Davesprite's because John/Jade died and/or Cal was prototyped. The Aranea time line because everyone died before they could deploy the Frog. Felt Dave because he traveled back in time when Dave didn't. The Gamzee goes crazy early time line because he kills the trolls before they can make B so that B can make C. Paradoxes are the common thread tying together the doomed time lines. Also because almost all doomed time lines are shown before their alpha counterparts, because if everything just always happened the way it was supposed to the first time there'd be no reason for doomed time lines, and because it fits with the themes of growing, identity and finding third options as opposed to just going with one of two. And it's all easy to check. That's the point of Sburb. That's not the point of the destruction of the destruction of the originating planet, or the chess theme, or there being a discontent archagent named Jack Noir, or there being seven gates, etc, etc, etc. Universal propagation could be accomplished in a much easier and more simple way, so to say "____ can' be true because what's the point?" is a little absurd. Actually it is. The destruction of the planet is sending equipment and exiles to the planet so they can reseed the planet so S==>b can use it again in the future. As for the chess themes and challenges are to give the players things to overcome to prove their worthy of creating their Universe and recieving the ultimate reward. It's all a part of it. Well again, if this happens in the alpha first than that's the reason they're cut because it interferes with there being a time line which creates LE. How? How does their existence interfere with that in any way? If John dies seeing Typhus, he doesn't create the babies, which means they can't go back in time to become the players, which means Jade can't enter and make the Frog, which means LE never exists, which means his minions can't influence the trolls to create B etc. Paradox. If that's the time line, a lot of things get really screwed up. So it's edited out and the time line without paradoxes is the Alpha. But aside from that, the point is that in a time line where he's supposed to exist but doesn't, Universe B and C don't even exist, which means, Dave should never have gotten into S==>b in the first place, and there's no telling what kind of problems that causes in that time line, and there's no telling if those problems can't bleed over into other time lines. Davesprite himself found himself a loophole to keep existing, and other, more malignant things could probably exploit similar loopholes. Well, there's also the role of predestination. What happens within a timeline is what's predestined to happen, and if a timeline is not "supposed" to interact with another, then it will be predestined not to do so. If only what was predistined to happen happened there'd be no point of doomed time lines in the first place. So leaving those time lines up, if they don't cause physical harm to Paradox Space or are just a inefficient to keep up with when you only need one time line, could cause problems. It just makes more sense for there to be only one alpha. Since when does paradox space care about what's efficient? Considering paradoxes are inneficient and Paradox Space eats those for breakfast.... Dave himself refers to it as messing with the alpha alpha time line, and John is able to create clones that don't have to fulfill a loop. Just that makes it different from time travel, but the fact that he can go so far back he winds up in another Universe and he can use it outside a session, which is something only the Handmaid and the Felt (with the help of Jujus) have been able to do to my recollection makes it different as well. But let's say John's power isn't all that different from regular time travel at all. That would pose the question of what the point of it is. Why not have John's role filled by a time traveling character then, or have John use a time machine the way Gamzee and Vriska did, and not waste time on that pirate quest or any of John's retcon shenanigans? If John's artifact doesn't function differently than other time travel machinations, there's little point in it being given such build up or even being introduced at all. My main point was that John's powers and how he relate to normal time travel are debatable and unknown, so neither of us can use them as evidence for how normal time travel works. They're not debatable and unknown. I provided examples of differences between John's power and regular time travel. In the part of my post that you quoted. We may not be able to know the extent of their differences, but that they are different is undeniable based on evidence in the comic itself. The kids' whole problem as it stands is that they can't get rid of Lord English without dooming themselves both because the end of his existence is linked to his beginning and because his creation is linked to their own. If you don't get doomed for creating a time line with a paradox, than LE would be easy to get rid of. There's also Karkat's whole speech about the best version of you is not necessarily the one Paradox Space needs for its end means you can never be that person, which is underscored by the kids who appeared to win the game still being very messed up versions of themselves. But if that's not the case there's no reason for that angst at all. There's also all the development and angst related to time travel that Aradia and Dave went through. If there aren't doomed time lines all that worry and dancing around to avoid being doomed was pointless. Dave's sacrifice in his fight with Noir with Jade was pointless. Dave and Terezi establishing how doomed time lines work with Felt Dave was pointless. Davesprite's time line and the one Terezi saw were pointless. If none of those things were needed to save the alpha from being doomed, there was no point in them existing at all. None of this is invalidated, because all of it happens within the context of a session, where both of us agree there is only one timeline. Four sessions. Well, I have to admit that you finally have good evidence. This quote does indeed seem to imply that Scratch exists within the an alpha timeline despite being outside the session. (Granted, it's still possible for there to be non-alpha non-doomed timelines, but that would be forcing it.) ... I'll have to think about this. I've said this before. Multiple times. If you wanted a direct quote you could've asked or looked it up like I did. So I realize that using this question to stir up the discussion thread is akin to using a tactical nuke to kill a mosquito, but what are you guys' final thoughts on Vriska's character and how she was handled? I'm pretty torn on her myself; I think she was a fascinating character, but I have some serious misgivings about where her development went post-retcon. I'm curious to see what you guys think, though. Never liked her. Having her around before her death was interesting in a sense, not because she was an interesting character to me, but because she functioned as a plot device that caused crazy shit to happen that ratcheted up suspense. It just seemed like her talk at the end with John was way too little way too late, so I could never really get invested in her. There's a lot of Cherub based foreshadowing that went unresolved/unaddressed in Homestuck. There's this, there's all that imagery of the snake eating its own tail that never amounted to anything. There's that one speech that Calliope made to Jane that, in hindsight, is wrong on several counts. Some might argue that there should've been more to the revelation that the Cherubs are linked to the Zilly equipment(or just more meaning to Zilly stuff in general). All the no-so-subtle-hints about Caliborn's incestual feelings combined with the clunky exposition we got on the very unusual Cherub mating process surely seemed like that was going to mean something, but nope. It almost seems as if Hussie genuinely did have some other story in mind and that the Retcon truly was an actual retcon, preemptively cancelling the story Hussie had in mind, in favour of the mess we got instead. The "call a cherub by their name to put them to sleep" never amounted to anything either, unless like five seconds of emotional trauma for Roxy amounts to "something". And there's Caliborn's very slow, very painful but still existent character development, which I guess never meant anything either. Why I'm a member of my party. DUGE. THIS LITTILE GREEN TOILET ELF THINK 'S HE IS THE FUCKING PRINCE OF THE LILYpod.Translation: The universe frog thinks he's sooooo great and is the most important thing in the story. HES ACTUALLY THE PRINCE OF MY STU-PID DICK.Translation: The ending heavily featuring the creation of the frog is actually stupid and worthy of mocking. I'AM NOT EVEN GONING TO CAP ENSNARE HIM. I AM -- ASHAMED OF HIM AND THIS ENTIRE POND.Translation: I'm not even going to bother with the ending. I am now ashamed of it and the entire story of Homestuck! (ie: many fans after the ending) <Drops the net thing, which slowly settles.> Translation: Fans drop Homestuck, and we gradually wait for the ending anticipation and the general Homestuck hype machine to settle down. <Giant clam smirks, with the net inside> Translation: The clam knows something we don't know, but is still holding onto Homestuck and biding its time waiting....... Possibly an allusion to the alpha trolls, given the clam shell. If it's supposed to be foreshadowing for the end game though, then it'd be really interesting. You make a point, though I'm not exactly sure how much of whatever all this would be foreshadowing would fit in the story. As loose and open as things are, there's really not much room for any more plot aside from whatever the final battle against English might entail. *tilts head* But there isn't a set number of words Hussie is allowed to use before he runs out and can't write anymore. There's no set amount of room the comic has to be concise enough to fit into. And actually, if all that foreshadowing doesn't ever serve any purpose, that's an example of stuff that doesn't fit in the story because it takes up space without doing anything already anyway. Plus Hussie's the kind of guy who writes ten words when he only needed one anyway.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Sept 14, 2016 21:33:14 GMT
Responce to alleywaycreeper: Timelines in the Intermission are handled very differently from timelines within the session. Taken out of the context of being within Homestuck, you would expect multiple timelines to exist concurrently. Now put hat within Homestuck, and there's still nothing to indicate that's not the case unless you force them into in-session time travel rules. They're not handled that differently at all. Both intermission and non-intermission time crap can create time clones and allow the traveler to jump from one time line to another. Doze slows things down the way Aradia did to stop Noir from killing her. That's just generic time travel, though. That can happed in many works of fiction involving time travel, even if their time travel rules are completely different from Homestuck's. No it's not: You're saying that even though splitting the timeline dooms one of the resulting timelines, spawning multiple sessions works differently where none of them get doomed. That's not a metaphor at all. So why do timelines created by a split have to contribute to creating Lord English while timelines caused by a branch do not? Using that logic, Terezi didn't have to be inspired by SBaHJ to in turn come up with the porkchop mouth and inspire SBaHJ; she could have randomly drawn that face on her own. Those four sessions are still all sessions, so what's your point there? And the intermission is one case of ignoring that example (albiet, not outright going against it), and it's not conjecture, it canon! Except in my initial statement you replyed to I was doing just that: pointing out there was no evidence for what you were asserting (or more acurately, that the evidence you were using was invalid). You then replyed by stating that my statement had no evidence to support my point, which is true, but meaningless as the statement you were refering to was intended to be the same sort of statement as the one you made! So you're admiting that since he didn't show it it is unknown and left up to theorizing or headcanon? Because it seemed like you were arguing that since he didn't show it so it can't happen. Who says it didn't? We barely saw any of Davesprite's timeline, so as you just said yourself, that mkes what happened within it (such as if it split further or not) left up to theorizing or headcanon. That solves nothing. His future self didn't previously exist in that place at that time. By going back in time, he now does exist in that place at that time. You can't just overwite him not being there initially; that would change the events that lead up to him traveling him back in time in the first place. Actually, now that I think of it, have a more explicit example: What would happen if doomed Dave went back in time to 5 minutes before his present moment, and then proceeds to steal his past self's timetables so that in 5 minutes from that point he will not be able to use them to travel back in time in the first place? That's a paradox that paradox space needs to fix even though it happens in a doomed timeline. Thank you, a straight and admitedly reasonable answer for once! And I'd understand how it might make someone think the way you are ... if it wasn't for the intermission, the scratch, and the existance of multiple sessions. (Also the existance of canonical doomed timelines that do work that way are enough to fit with the themes, regardless of if it's a universal rule or not.) Suburb could still send equipment and exiles to the planet to reseed it without completely destroying it, and the chess theme is no better at proving a players worthiness than any other similar theme. But regardless: Couldn't doomed timelines also be considered a challenge for the players to overcome? Yes, but all that stuff only nees to happen in one timeline, what does it matter if it doesn't happen in timelines other than that one? Unless the timeline was predestined to split. Paradoxes are inneficient? Huh? Paradoxes (in this context) are nothing more or less than logical contradictions. Yes, but the differences we do know contribute nothing to our argument. Again, they're all sessions. It doesn't matter how many; they're still sessions. I had no idea it was a quote worth looking up or asking for!
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Post by Gab on Sept 17, 2016 16:40:21 GMT
*tilts head* But there isn't a set number of words Hussie is allowed to use before he runs out and can't write anymore. There's no set amount of room the comic has to be concise enough to fit into. And actually, if all that foreshadowing doesn't ever serve any purpose, that's an example of stuff that doesn't fit in the story because it takes up space without doing anything already anyway. Plus Hussie's the kind of guy who writes ten words when he only needed one anyway. It's been a little while since I wrote that, but I think what I meant was that it wouldn't really flow with the narrative at this point. We've reached the end of the journey for everybody. It's the end of the kids' session, end of Caliborn's journey to adulthood, end of the ghost's quest to face Lord English. All that's left is to cross that last step, which does admittedly entail more action for some groups than others. But it'd be kind of weird to me if suddenly the plot ground to a halt and went "wait wait first all this other stuff has to happen and THEEEEN the curtains can close for good." That I think would ultimately be worse than failing to follow up on some foreshadowing.
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Post by obsidalicious on Sept 17, 2016 21:04:24 GMT
*tilts head* But there isn't a set number of words Hussie is allowed to use before he runs out and can't write anymore. There's no set amount of room the comic has to be concise enough to fit into. And actually, if all that foreshadowing doesn't ever serve any purpose, that's an example of stuff that doesn't fit in the story because it takes up space without doing anything already anyway. Plus Hussie's the kind of guy who writes ten words when he only needed one anyway. It's been a little while since I wrote that, but I think what I meant was that it wouldn't really flow with the narrative at this point. We've reached the end of the journey for everybody. It's the end of the kids' session, end of Caliborn's journey to adulthood, end of the ghost's quest to face Lord English. All that's left is to cross that last step, which does admittedly entail more action for some groups than others. But it'd be kind of weird to me if suddenly the plot ground to a halt and went "wait wait first all this other stuff has to happen and THEEEEN the curtains can close for good." That I think would ultimately be worse than failing to follow up on some foreshadowing. I do agree with you that getting all that extra content, while perhaps wanted by some, would be an awkward fit for the narrative. I just want to point out that you're saying this about a webcomic that has people defending the ending on the grounds that Homestuck is a totally subversive story for which we shouldn't expect traditional storytelling.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Sept 19, 2016 17:54:25 GMT
Responce to alleywaycreeper: They're not handled that differently at all. Both intermission and non-intermission time crap can create time clones and allow the traveler to jump from one time line to another. Doze slows things down the way Aradia did to stop Noir from killing her. That's just generic time travel, though. That can happed in many works of fiction involving time travel, even if their time travel rules are completely different from Homestuck's. Not really. Different time travel stories handle time travel differently (having time be linear vs. non-linear, being able to make time clones vs. not being able to make time clones, paradoxes mattering vs. not mattering etc.) but even putting that aside, it'd been established that was what time travel could do in Homestuck outside the intermission. I wasn't establishing a rule. I said that it makes sense that another session wouldn't have to fulfill the specific events unique to the A>B>C chain because they're not in it. (Like making LE's Frog, because there's only one session that has to make that.) But, if something bled over from that, it would have to follow the rules of that. (For instance, if Cal made it into another session, prototyping it would doom the time line even though the session was not part of the A>B>C chain.) I likened that to a branch on one tree (the branches being sessions and the tree itself being the alpha time line) to try to make it easier to understand. It's not a rule, it's an interpretation of information available to us. It's just logic. I don't see what that has to do with anything, but a split time line, I would imagine, couldn't on account of being split and doomed. And I wouldn't call branches time lines. They're just outside specific loops of other branches, but still fall under the header of alpha time line. The word branch is just to differentiate sessions that have to fulfill specific loops from each other. Um, no, because neither Terezi nor Dave were doomed. That's the difference between those two situations. The intermission does not ignore that example. As I've said, the comic gives us all the information we need to know that in the intermission, time lines are doomed because they cause paradoxes. At least one example in the intermission is a doomed time line, as I already outlined. I don't remember the specifics. No because content in the comic contradicts that possibility. You don't seem to just be saying it's your headcannon though. You're arguing that's what happens without providing any proof. If you want to believe it that's fine, but if you want to claim it's objectively true and/or you want me or other people to believe it, you have to give me more than 'well you don't know it's not true' to make your case. As I've said, we've seen more than one time line that should've been split multiple times if that's how it works. Since that was never shown (not even in the dreambubbles) then there's no evidence for it, and in fact those time lines work as evidence against that. Without evidence, I don't see why I or anyone else should believe that's what happens. I'm not trying to solve anything. If the time line doesn't split with each new paradox (as the evidence suggests) then that's the most that I think would probably happen. I mean, without John creating the babies in Davesprite's time line, Dave and Rose shouldn't even be there! But the time line ignores that. So it'd probably ignore the paradox of an extra Dave as well. .......I've said that multiple times. I actually thought you'd give me shit for repeating myself. And I'd understand how it might make someone think the way you are ... if it wasn't for the intermission, the scratch, and the existance of multiple sessions. (Also the existance of canonical doomed timelines that do work that way are enough to fit with the themes, regardless of if it's a universal rule or not.) Except that I don't believe the scratch, or the intermission are examples of split, non-doomed time lines and there being multiple sessions doesn't have anything to do with anything. That doesn't have anything to do with anything. Those things are there because they're part of the process. Whether you think they're an inefficient part of the process isn't relevant to the point I was arguing. But regardless: Couldn't doomed timelines also be considered a challenge for the players to overcome? There's nothing that suggests it. Aradia says that any doomed player who leaves their doomed time line (like the various Aradiabots) is marked for death. So that's not so much a challenge to overcome as it is an automatic game over. The point is Davesprite's time line was split off because those important things were prevented from happening. That time line being doomed is the reason they could happen in the alpha. It's like editing scenes out of a movie that would cause a plot hole in the story if left in.Seems like a waste of time to me. Time lines split when something goes wrong. If everything's predestined, nothing can go wrong, and there's no point for a doomed time line to happen. Which can cause multiple Universes to unmake themselves, which strikes me as inefficient at best. The argument was that John's powers are different than normal time travel. Because they're all a part of one loop in one alpha, and someone doing something in one session that dooms the players in it affects the others. That's why it matters that it's four sessions and not one. I'd argued that Scratch and Dave had referred to the alpha as 'the alpha' before. You could've checked, or asked me for an exact quote if you believed I was wrong about that. *tilts head* But there isn't a set number of words Hussie is allowed to use before he runs out and can't write anymore. There's no set amount of room the comic has to be concise enough to fit into. And actually, if all that foreshadowing doesn't ever serve any purpose, that's an example of stuff that doesn't fit in the story because it takes up space without doing anything already anyway. Plus Hussie's the kind of guy who writes ten words when he only needed one anyway. It's been a little while since I wrote that, but I think what I meant was that it wouldn't really flow with the narrative at this point. We've reached the end of the journey for everybody. It's the end of the kids' session, end of Caliborn's journey to adulthood, end of the ghost's quest to face Lord English. All that's left is to cross that last step, which does admittedly entail more action for some groups than others. But it'd be kind of weird to me if suddenly the plot ground to a halt and went "wait wait first all this other stuff has to happen and THEEEEN the curtains can close for good." That I think would ultimately be worse than failing to follow up on some foreshadowing. But that's not true anyway because we didn't actually see any of that stuff happen. It would be one thing if we knew and saw, unambiguously, exactly what happened to everybody the story had been following, and then Hussie dumped all this other extra stuff on top, but that's not how the ending played out. Plus, whether you think it'd be a good or bad idea, he already did that with things like the sprites, so it's not like it'd be out of character for him to do more.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Sept 19, 2016 20:31:49 GMT
Responce to alleywaycreeper (again): Responce to alleywaycreeper: That's just generic time travel, though. That can happed in many works of fiction involving time travel, even if their time travel rules are completely different from Homestuck's. Not really. Different time travel stories handle time travel differently (having time be linear vs. non-linear, being able to make time clones vs. not being able to make time clones, paradoxes mattering vs. not mattering etc.) but even putting that aside, it'd been established that was what time travel could do in Homestuck outside the intermission. I said that can happen in many works of fiction involving time travel, not all works of fiction involving time travel. Similaritys in such a way could easily be chalked up to the same author. Plus, what's up with Eggs and Biscuits going around in " stable and not so stable time loops?" Since when has the concept of unstable time loops been brought up outside the intrmission? So let's just say, hypothetically, that rather than causing a split, paradoxes simply made things into two parallel branches instead. Since one branch of the alpha does go on to do what it needs to do to make LE, everything's fine, right? So how would this hypothetical scenario differ from the timeline splitting and the timeline and neither split being doomed? Why would different timelines have to follow different rules than different branches. You're making a distinction between timelines and branches where one doesn't need to be made. "a split time line, I would imagine, couldn't on account of being split and doomed." That's what you're trying to proove, so you can't use it as evidence to proove itself. Why does that matter? If Hussie han not written it so Terezi is inspired by SBaHJ to draw that mouth and instead just randomly came up with it then it wouldn't matter, the story would have gone on as usual otherwise; it's a perfectly possible situation. Likewise, a situation of a loop where information originates from itself happening through communication with a doomed timeline is also a perfectly possible situation. A. You outlined why based on your theory that one example in the intermission is a doomed time line, as such, using this information as evidence for your theory is circular logic. B. The information we know about doomed timelines from before the intermission is that of one timeline being doomed. The existance of one thing only proves the possibility of that thing, not that all timelines must be like it. C. I say it ignores the timeline rules not because it doesn't follow them (we don't know if it does or doesn't), but because it never brings them up. Obviously not proof, but certainly notible. Ok, let me go back to what started this: I don't see how. There's nothing that suggests Paradox Space can keep a bunch of time lines lying around and just needs to pick one to be the alpha. What's more likely (based on the doomed time line system existing at all) is that there's a time line where all that stuff that needs to happen does and everything else is superfluous (or outright harmful) and is cut. There's nothing that suggests Paradox Space can't keep a bunch of time lines lying around either. You were saying that Paradox Space most likely can't keep a bunch of timelines lying around, and I was saying you have no reason to believe that. Ok. What content in the comic contradicts that possibility? And don't say the evidence makes it most likely; I want an actual contradiction, not theorizing. I didn't say it's left up to headcanon; I said it's left up to theorizing or headcanon. In this case your theorizing suggests one thing while mine suggests something else. Either way, this particular part of the comic in cannot be used as evidence for either of us.
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Post by Bla Bla on Sept 22, 2016 1:40:28 GMT
I loved the Gigapause
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Sept 22, 2016 1:48:34 GMT
I have this to say about the ending:
I was not expecting it at all. It was certainly not the ending I wanted. And yet, I liked it. I think it was a good ending, a satisfying ending, even. But that does not mean I would not have liked the ending everyone wanted, or that the ending anyone else wanted would have been somehow less good. I would have liked a more solid ending that tied everything up just as much, and that would have been a good ending. I just think that the ending we got was also a good ending.
But that is just me. Taste is subjective and all that.
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Post by plainWonder on Sept 25, 2016 17:31:13 GMT
I would say Homestuck at its core tells a somewhat conventional story about kids growing up. It shows them faced with adversity and not really knowing who they are or who they're supposed to be. They meet peers with whom they are first at odds with but soon become close friends, and together make an effort to rise beyond the chaotic medley they've been trapped in and start fresh. You could perhaps look at it as an extended metaphor for teenage years. Pretty much the entire plot sums up the confusing feelings you go through as you're becoming an adult. The ending represents a new beginning, one where the kids are actually in a state of control over their future, and ACTUALLY accountable for the things that happen from that point on. That's a bit of a loose theory though. In that case, all the plot stuff and villains kind of lose focus as obstacles not very relevant to the kid, and walking away from them is as much success as is defeating them outright. I would say much of that has more to do with the other kind of story Homestuck tells, the elaborate creation myth centering around Sburb. Lord English and his adventures in that case become something like a mythological figure you'd read about in the epic tales of a religion, like the devil in christianity, or the ragnarok event in norse mythology. All of which falls somewhat askew of a more standard story about heroes and their journeys, but such is the point of all the worldbuilding throughout the comic. It was one of the more jarring and at the same time most recognizable parts of the story, that the kids are always in over their head, and at the end not even that good at or dedicated to the whole heroism shtick, and that major events in the story played out around them without them all being aware in some capacity of everything that had happened by the end. The times when characters decide to take matters in their own hands, like Rose trying to blow up the Green Sun, or Terezi finding Gamzee to hold him accountable, often end in disaster. John decides to limit his use of his unlimited retcon powers beyond what he might have been capable of, because he doesn't want to erase the experiences he's had. Valuing friendship over, objectively, the life of an entire planet at the least (B1 Earth - if it hadn't been destroyed by meteors). In the end, they just wanted to get to a point in life where everything was not such a hassle. Being the Dave of guy and all that, just regular people.
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Post by Gab on Sept 27, 2016 1:50:12 GMT
On a totally unrelated note... I've been thinking ever since I got my new computer a reread of Homestuck might be in order. Of course I'm terrible at doing those so who knows how far I'll make it this time around... But this time I'm going a step beyond. Again since this is a brand new computer, why not go the whole nine yards and do an entire MS Paint Adventures reread? It's been a while since I've gone back to those poor overshadowed older stories. I probably don't really have anything particularly interesting to commentate on the matter, but perhaps I'll keep track of my progress. One thing my prep for all this has done for me is make me realize how silly it is we're arguing so much about the themes and nature of the story. I mean, not like doing that itself is silly or that the themes and story are bad, but I just got a reminder how all of that was improvised. All that was planned at the start were some basic systems and an endpoint for the adventure, all this whirling plot stuff and Big Picture ideas just kind of got thrown on along the way, probably the worst possible way to tell a coherent story. If anyone has any gripes about the quality of the story, there you go. Even the ending, since it had to cap all of that off. I guess it's just funny to think where we are as a fandom now, while looking at the only picture on MSPA that was actually drawn in MS Paint. Years before anything resembling legitimate drama would enter the scene. Let's begin the adventure
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Sept 27, 2016 2:16:28 GMT
On a totally unrelated note... I've been thinking ever since I got my new computer a reread of Homestuck might be in order. Of course I'm terrible at doing those so who knows how far I'll make it this time around... But this time I'm going a step beyond. Again since this is a brand new computer, why not go the whole nine yards and do an entire MS Paint Adventures reread? It's been a while since I've gone back to those poor overshadowed older stories. I probably don't really have anything particularly interesting to commentate on the matter, but perhaps I'll keep track of my progress. One thing my prep for all this has done for me is make me realize how silly it is we're arguing so much about the themes and nature of the story. I mean, not like doing that itself is silly or that the themes and story are bad, but I just got a reminder how all of that was improvised. All that was planned at the start were some basic systems and an endpoint for the adventure, all this whirling plot stuff and Big Picture ideas just kind of got thrown on along the way, probably the worst possible way to tell a coherent story. If anyone has any gripes about the quality of the story, there you go. Even the ending, since it had to cap all of that off. I guess it's just funny to think where we are as a fandom now, while looking at the only picture on MSPA that was actually drawn in MS Paint. Years before anything resembling legitimate drama would enter the scene. Let's begin the adventure So, are you going to read the weird ones too? Like Homestuck Beta, Ryanquest, and the Vigil Prince? And, like, glance at Blood Spade?
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Sept 27, 2016 13:59:11 GMT
So, are you going to read the weird ones too? Like Homestuck Beta, Ryanquest, and the Vigil Prince? And, like, glance at Blood Spade? The Vigil Prince? I've never heard of that one.
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Sept 27, 2016 15:58:34 GMT
So, are you going to read the weird ones too? Like Homestuck Beta, Ryanquest, and the Vigil Prince? And, like, glance at Blood Spade? The Vigil Prince? I've never heard of that one. That is, apparently, the name of this thing: www.mspaintadventures.com/scraps2/vigilprince.html
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Post by Gab on Sept 27, 2016 17:34:02 GMT
So, are you going to read the weird ones too? Like Homestuck Beta, Ryanquest, and the Vigil Prince? And, like, glance at Blood Spade? I was going to say I didn't really remember how to get to vigil prrince, but you just linked it, so... that one's off the list. I'll check out blood spade and HS beta, I usually do when they come up in the story. For me that is part of the experience. And assuming it's all still intact, I also want to check out all the donation commands. I've made it through Jailbreak and Bard Quest already, and have finished the first chapter of Problem Sleuth so far. I can tell how much my storytelling senses have developed over the years. I sure didn't used to think much about them or how short the first two stories were, now it jumps out at me much more how experimental they really were. And failed experiments, at that. I've also taken note of just how much the quality of the art increases from one story to the next. One observation I've made is appreciating some of the tertiary similarities and differences between these older stories and Homestuck. Like, the puzzles that seem to pop up for virtually no reason in Jailbreak and Problem Sleuth reminded me of things like the room WV started off in, or some of the various puzzles that show up in Homestuck, and of course the Intermission, an intentional callback to PS. Except in Homestuck, that stuff wasn't random silliness, it all actually folded into the story and meant something more than adding convolution to the quest of the heroes. Idunno, this all made more sense in my head last night, but I must have been pretty out of it because I can't seem to find an eloquent point to make here. Well, one other advantage is catching references that will be called back again in Homestuck. Seeing old familiar ones again like the arms gag, plus catching subtler ones that I may have missed or forgotten about. So far I'm having fun.
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Sept 27, 2016 18:26:06 GMT
One observation I've made is appreciating some of the tertiary similarities and differences between these older stories and Homestuck. Like, the puzzles that seem to pop up for virtually no reason in Jailbreak and Problem Sleuth reminded me of things like the room WV started off in, or some of the various puzzles that show up in Homestuck, and of course the Intermission, an intentional callback to PS. Except in Homestuck, that stuff wasn't random silliness, it all actually folded into the story and meant something more than adding convolution to the quest of the heroes. Idunno, this all made more sense in my head last night, but I must have been pretty out of it because I can't seem to find an eloquent point to make here. I think I understand what you mean. These puzzles are a basic element of MS Paint Adventures, just as much as commands and the picture-book format. And you are watching them evolve from nothing more than simple references to similar puzzles in old-school text adventures to an actual major part of the story, as the adventures themselves evolved in a similar direction.
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Post by Gab on Sept 27, 2016 23:28:33 GMT
Yeah, that about sums it up.
Every time I come back to Problem Sleuth I appreciate it more and more. In its own way it really hits the height of the user suggestion potential. In Homestuck, the role of the readers was essentially to explore via suggestions and accidentally stumble upon ways of expanding the story, and eventually direct input got retired altogether. But in Problem Sleuth when the fanbase and scope were both much smaller, I imagine the readers at the time felt much more invested in the "game" aspect of PS, participating much more directly in the solving the puzzles, the act of which was what expanded the story and scale of that world, where Homestuck did so almost automatically.
Maybe that's a bit presumptuous to say as a person who came to the story long after it had ended, I have no serial experience with it at all. Even so, perhaps with that understanding in mind I can look at what was created years ago and feel as if I'm 'immersed' in that spirit, even if I'm just reading a static story without actually participating beyond clicking the page.
While this isn't really relevant to anything, if it ever came up I'd definitely recommend to anyone curious about Homestuck or MSPA to check this story out first if they have the patience to do so. Kind of like the New Reader page suggests to begin with! If you have the scoop on MSPA's backstory I think it becomes much more accessible, and in turn makes Homestuck easier to jump into.
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Sept 27, 2016 23:36:13 GMT
Every time I come back to Problem Sleuth I appreciate it more and more. In its own way it really hits the height of the user suggestion potential. In Homestuck, the role of the readers was essentially to explore via suggestions and accidentally stumble upon ways of expanding the story, and eventually direct input got retired altogether. But in Problem Sleuth when the fanbase and scope were both much smaller, I imagine the readers at the time felt much more invested in the "game" aspect of PS, participating much more directly in the solving the puzzles, the act of which was what expanded the story and scale of that world, where Homestuck did so almost automatically. I think that, maybe, that changing role of reader input and puzzles and such might be one of a few things that point to it not really being possible for another MS Paint Adventure to ever happen. What does everyone else think about that?
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