The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Jun 20, 2016 14:06:16 GMT
You know, this kind of came up in the unpopular opinions thread, and I didn't want to get into it there, but it's really kind of tragic how Gamzee shunned all his friends to be Lord English's servant. I mean, even after the horrible things he did, he had people still willing to give him a second chance, but he had to or maybe even wanted to leave them all behind for his 'greater destiny'. And he never gets to redeem himself or choose his friends over his religion, in two timelines he dies as their enemy. Was he really just never interested in them to begin with? Did he ever question himself if it was worth it? Or did he feel it was inevitable?? I do the same thing with Eridan too. I must have a problem with the troll villains. Actually, all that about Gamzee reminds me of Vriska, who similarly seems to have just abandoned all her friends so she can go be the hero of the bigger story, like his inverse. I don't think Gamzee was ever close to any of them. I mean, he made his "friends" while high on soper slime. While he may have developed some sort of warped feelings for them, he was too drugged up to develop proper, healthy feelings of friendship. As for Eridan, he's just impulsive and doesn't think things through.
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Post by DS Piron on Jun 20, 2016 21:13:11 GMT
So....he just decided on a whim to make an epilogue after seeing his newspost needed a few more words to reach 413? What? I could buy the number being a coincidence before I believed that. If that was all he wanted, he could've written anything. More shout outs to contributers, a little more background about how the last couple of flashes were made...he didn't have to mention an epilogue at all. No, he's suggesting that Hussie made the edit round out the word count to 213 on a whim. Like, he noticed the edit got word count of the news post to around that number, then decided to just adjust the edit to make it enough. On the other hand, Hussie has never gone and left pointless hints. It's completely out-of-character for him. We can probably expect the 'epilogue' in three-or=four months
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 20, 2016 21:50:27 GMT
So....he just decided on a whim to make an epilogue after seeing his newspost needed a few more words to reach 413? What? I could buy the number being a coincidence before I believed that. If that was all he wanted, he could've written anything. More shout outs to contributers, a little more background about how the last couple of flashes were made...he didn't have to mention an epilogue at all. No, he's suggesting that Hussie made the edit round out the word count to 213 on a whim. Like, he noticed the edit got word count of the news post to around that number, then decided to just adjust the edit to make it enough. Blaperile said 'but when he decided to edit his newspost he was like "ok why not" and made it fit 413 words.' The edit to the news post was just that bit about an epilogue. On the other hand, Hussie has never gone and left pointless hints. It's completely out-of-character for him. We can probably expect the 'epilogue' in three-or=four months Yeah, I'm expecting the epilogue in that time frame too. I really wish it could be sooner (or that we at least had some more news about Hiveswap or something) but I could live with a release date that was somewhere around or in October. If it's later than that I won't be surprised, but it'd suck.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 20, 2016 22:01:25 GMT
On the other hand, Hussie has never gone and left pointless hints. It's completely out-of-character for him. Well it was out-of-character for him. But then the end happened and there's still a bunch of hints, foreshadows and setups still dangling in the wind.
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Post by DS Piron on Jun 20, 2016 23:29:46 GMT
No, he's suggesting that Hussie made the edit round out the word count to 213 on a whim. Like, he noticed the edit got word count of the news post to around that number, then decided to just adjust the edit to make it enough. Blaperile said 'but when he decided to edit his newspost he was like "ok why not" and made it fit 413 words.' The edit to the news post was just that bit about an epilogue. ...I'm probably missing something. From how I'm understanding the post, it's being suggested that Hussie might've either typed out the edit, and found it close enough to 413 that some rewording could bring it to that, or Hussie decided to word the edit so that it would make the news post be 413 on a whim. Perhaps I'm just assuming that he's not saying Hussie added the edit on a whim, and Hussie didn't decide what he was going to add to the news post before he decided to edit it.
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thedude3445
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Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
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Post by thedude3445 on Jun 21, 2016 5:42:03 GMT
You know, this kind of came up in the unpopular opinions thread, and I didn't want to get into it there, but it's really kind of tragic how Gamzee shunned all his friends to be Lord English's servant. I mean, even after the horrible things he did, he had people still willing to give him a second chance, but he had to or maybe even wanted to leave them all behind for his 'greater destiny'. And he never gets to redeem himself or choose his friends over his religion, in two timelines he dies as their enemy. Was he really just never interested in them to begin with? Did he ever question himself if it was worth it? Or did he feel it was inevitable?? I do the same thing with Eridan too. I must have a problem with the troll villains. Actually, all that about Gamzee reminds me of Vriska, who similarly seems to have just abandoned all her friends so she can go be the hero of the bigger story, like his inverse. I don't think Gamzee was ever close to any of them. I mean, he made his "friends" while high on soper slime. While he may have developed some sort of warped feelings for them, he was too drugged up to develop proper, healthy feelings of friendship. As for Eridan, he's just impulsive and doesn't think things through. Gamzee's sober character arc was extremely unexplored in Act 6, which was really sad. He was apparently pacified in Act 5-2, but then he disappeared, and reappeared as some sort of chessmaster (or a pawn of one), prototyping characters and manipulating the Alpha session and seemingly doing some behind-the-scenes nefarious stuff in the dreambubbles. But then by Act 6-4, he just HONKs all the time and never again actually has a line. So it's really hard to say what Gamzee's motivations were for anything; we never really found out. Eridan's arc is more straightforward, though I do wish he were able to stay around longer as a villain before being offed.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 21, 2016 6:01:22 GMT
Gamzee's sober character arc was extremely unexplored in Act 6, which was really sad. He was apparently pacified in Act 5-2, but then he disappeared, and reappeared as some sort of chessmaster (or a pawn of one), prototyping characters and manipulating the Alpha session and seemingly doing some behind-the-scenes nefarious stuff in the dreambubbles. But then by Act 6-4, he just HONKs all the time and never again actually has a line. So it's really hard to say what Gamzee's motivations were for anything; we never really found out. And then we had the whole PlEaSe StOp. YoU'rE mOtHeRfUcKiN hUrTiNg Me. ( bit which, to me at least, seemed like we were in for a nice arc where the characters would actually realise that Gamzee is more an indoctrinated/mentally ill victim than an enemy, and they might actually help him. But no. Retcon happens and it's just the Honkening again.
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thedude3445
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Post by thedude3445 on Jun 21, 2016 6:09:43 GMT
And then we had the whole PlEaSe StOp. YoU'rE mOtHeRfUcKiN hUrTiNg Me. ( bit which, to me at least, seemed like we were in for a nice arc where the characters would actually realise that Gamzee is more an indoctrinated/mentally ill victim than an enemy, and they might actually help him. But no. Retcon happens and it's just the Honkening again. Oh, I honestly forgot about that part. I guess he did have a couple lines besides HONKs. But... just that. Also, I was under the impression at the time that he was just tricking her. Again, we never really got an answer about it. Also, this was a really well-done page. The A6A6 glitches were a cheap gimmick (compared to the [o]termission disc scratch that is) but sometimes they made for cool effect.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Jun 21, 2016 6:23:23 GMT
I'd always guessed that Gamzee's change in personality in Act 6 was due to mind control, one of the Serkets trying to be relevant again by helping LE rise to power or something. It always seemed to me that the way Gamzee behaved in Caliborn's session and onward (pretty much always completely calm and smiling, not responding at all to being attacked, apparently having some sort of Plan) was the same as how he behaved under Aranea's mind control. In contrast, we saw that each time his mind control was released, he quickly became hostile and violent again. We saw that while he was with the cherubs and while he was prototyping sprites, he was exhibiting only the former type of personality. It's just a theory, but that's how I always explained it to myself.
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Post by Blaperile on Jun 21, 2016 9:27:20 GMT
About pre-retcon Gamzee, my interpretation is that Karkat did pacify him and made him calm, but then Lil Cal, Doc Scratch and Kurloz decided to mess with him to convince him that helping Caliborn was his ultimate goal. And as a firm believer in his religion he believed what they told him and made preparations for it. At the same time he began dating Terezi in the shadows. Then in the session he created the Troll Sprites. Presumably he was told by Lil Cal/Doc Scratch/Kurloz to do that, for some reason, because he'd already started hoarding the bodies before the 3-year trip even began. Next Aranea starts controlling him to do what she wanted him to do. He eventually escapes from her grip, realizes everything's going to shit and that the timeline is falling apart and not going like it was meant to, meaning he won't be able to raise Caliborn, and he completely flips his shit, not caring about anything or anyone anymore. Meanwhile post-retcon Gamzee is captured early on, pacifying him by the mere fact that he couldn't do anything about it, but he still had some level of freedom, still talking to Kurloz and still collecting the Bard of Rage outfit. So this time around it seems like he was still told the same things as pre-retcon, and still intends to serve Caliborn. He arrivés in the session, keeps on being stuck in the fridge, gets sucked into the black hole and ends up on Earth where he can finally serve Caliborn like he wanted to. That's my interpretation of his motivations. We still don't "know" that. What we do know is that Andrew's had plenty of funny numeric coincidences before throughout the run of Homestuck, this could just be the same thing. Looking at the various 10/25s in Volume 10, the 3 11's someone found, and taking into account this kind of behavior is par for the course for Hussie, I'm not inclined to believe it was a coincidence. And even if it's not a coincidence, it's still possible Andrew first didn't intend a 413-word newspost but when he decided to edit his newspost he was like "ok why not" and made it fit 413 words. So....he just decided on a whim to make an epilogue after seeing his newspost needed a few more words to reach 413? What? I could buy the number being a coincidence before I believed that. If that was all he wanted, he could've written anything. More shout outs to contributers, a little more background about how the last couple of flashes were made...he didn't have to mention an epilogue at all. That's not at all what I meant. DS Piron has got it right. I meant that perhaps Andrew decided "okay I should probably write something about the Epilogue", and as he was editing his newspost he decided "okay I can make this fit 413 words". I did not mean to imply that Andrew decided to make an Epilogue because he wanted his newspost to be 413 words.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 21, 2016 9:40:32 GMT
Looking at the various 10/25s in Volume 10, the 3 11's someone found, and taking into account this kind of behavior is par for the course for Hussie, I'm not inclined to believe it was a coincidence. So....he just decided on a whim to make an epilogue after seeing his newspost needed a few more words to reach 413? What? I could buy the number being a coincidence before I believed that. If that was all he wanted, he could've written anything. More shout outs to contributers, a little more background about how the last couple of flashes were made...he didn't have to mention an epilogue at all. That's not at all what I meant. DS Piron has got it right. I meant that perhaps Andrew decided "okay I should probably write something about the Epilogue", and as he was editing his newspost he decided "okay I can make this fit 413 words". I did not mean to imply that Andrew decided to make an Epilogue because he wanted his newspost to be 413 words. Still disagree. There's no way 413 words wasn't the plan from the start; I think he held off on the edit just to leave us dangling for a bit.
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Post by DS Piron on Jun 21, 2016 12:34:31 GMT
It's unbelievable that the post could have unintentionally been between 300 and 400 words before the edit?
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Post by Gab on Jun 21, 2016 14:24:55 GMT
Coincidences are not the stuff of legend. They happen too sometimes. Gamzee's sober character arc was extremely unexplored in Act 6, which was really sad. He was apparently pacified in Act 5-2, but then he disappeared, and reappeared as some sort of chessmaster (or a pawn of one), prototyping characters and manipulating the Alpha session and seemingly doing some behind-the-scenes nefarious stuff in the dreambubbles. But then by Act 6-4, he just HONKs all the time and never again actually has a line. So it's really hard to say what Gamzee's motivations were for anything; we never really found out. And then we had the whole PlEaSe StOp. YoU'rE mOtHeRfUcKiN hUrTiNg Me. ( bit which, to me at least, seemed like we were in for a nice arc where the characters would actually realise that Gamzee is more an indoctrinated/mentally ill victim than an enemy, and they might actually help him. But no. Retcon happens and it's just the Honkening again. On top of these good points, which are a shame, I was also hoping we'd get to see more insight into what he thinks about Caliborn and about serving him, especially if it led to a moment where he could at the critical moment betray his master for his former friends and the greater good, but that never happens and he dies an ineffectual lackey with no character growth, essentially on tier with the Felt in that regard. But I suppose if we were never going to see a conclusive final battle with him, then there really wouldn't be room for a last-minute heel-face turn like that. And him going out the way he does still speaks to his character, in a sort of depressing way.
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thedude3445
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Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
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Post by thedude3445 on Jun 21, 2016 20:37:56 GMT
Act 6 Finale would have been much better if Lord English's servants were the ones that they were actually fighting. We had Jack English and the Felt (if the Felt were even actually serving him by this point, it was kind of vague), but then Spades Slick, PM/Bec Noir, and the Condesce were all off doing their own thing, and the Condesce was actively trying to rebel against LE. But we had Gamzee, Damara, Kurloz, apaprently Meulin (and my memory suggests Cronus too but I might be misremembering) all as characters aligned to help Lord English in his path of destruction. Aradia's motivations were vague and suspcious for the whole of Act 6 and her being Lord English's servant was still a very popular theory up until the Gigapause. Very disappointing to see most of these dudes go nowhere.
Without going into any plotholes or loose ends or whatever, there were just too many heroes against too few villains in the final battle, and the most powerful villains (Bec Noir and Condesce) weren't even necessarily opposed to the kids in their motivations.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
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Post by imglasses on Jun 21, 2016 22:09:34 GMT
Act 6 Finale would have been much better if Lord English's servants were the ones that they were actually fighting. We had Jack English and the Felt (if the Felt were even actually serving him by this point, it was kind of vague), but then Spades Slick, PM/Bec Noir, and the Condesce were all off doing their own thing, and the Condesce was actively trying to rebel against LE. But we had Gamzee, Damara, Kurloz, apaprently Meulin (and my memory suggests Cronus too but I might be misremembering) all as characters aligned to help Lord English in his path of destruction. Aradia's motivations were vague and suspcious for the whole of Act 6 and her being Lord English's servant was still a very popular theory up until the Gigapause. Very disappointing to see most of these dudes go nowhere. Without going into any plotholes or loose ends or whatever, there were just too many heroes against too few villains in the final battle, and the most powerful villains (Bec Noir and Condesce) weren't even necessarily opposed to the kids in their motivations. It would've been nice if they had to confront Damara, Kurloz, and Meulin, but I assume they were left out for the same reason that most of the good Beforus trolls were left out. Gamzee was locked up in a fridge, so they had no reason to want to let him out and fight him (besides, there's several reasons that they wouldn't be able to kill him). And I don't think the story has ever actually suggested that Aradia works for Lord English. She presumably helped Vriska find and carry the secret weapon, and we later saw her attack Lord English directly. At the very worst, she's portrayed as neutral. Though I do agree it's sad that her character was dropped after Act 5, even though she managed to survive. The Condesce and the kids both wanted to create the new universe, but the Condesce wanted to rule it, while the kids wanted it to be free. The last two times the Condesce ruled a planet, it ended horribly for billions. The Condesce wasn't necessarily opposed to the kids, but the kids had good reason to be opposed to her. As for Bec Noir, killing almost everyone has always been his biggest motivation. I don't think he was done abusing his omnipotence, he was probably just worn out from being chased. Besides, PM is a protagonist too, and she most certainly had a reason to want to fight him. And if the kids had tried fighting him, they almost certainly would have died. I do think the fights were much too easy though. The Condesce hardly used her abilities at all. She should've been able to put all of them to sleep. Or she could've just used telekinesis to hold them in the air while she stabbed them. I was expecting John to have to make strategic use of his retcon abilities in order to overcome her. But it turns out that in order to kill someone who's invincible you just have to stab them once. And Dave and Dirk got caught in Jack English's laser beams multiple times, but instead of getting vaporized they just sort of...tumbled around like it was tickling them? And the Felt hardly made use of their extensive time abilities at all, though I guess that can be explained by the fact that almost all of them are stupid. Not even to mention how easy it was to beat Lord English himself.
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Post by melonlord on Jun 22, 2016 1:29:31 GMT
I do think the fights were much too easy though. The Condesce hardly used her abilities at all. She should've been able to put all of them to sleep. Or she could've just used telekinesis to hold them in the air while she stabbed them. I was expecting John to have to make strategic use of his retcon abilities in order to overcome her. But it turns out that in order to kill someone who's invincible you just have to stab them once. And Dave and Dirk got caught in Jack English's laser beams multiple times, but instead of getting vaporized they just sort of...tumbled around like it was tickling them? And the Felt hardly made use of their extensive time abilities at all, though I guess that can be explained by the fact that almost all of them are stupid. Not even to mention how easy it was to beat Lord English himself. The Condesce's power downgrade in particular was kind of jarring. She goes from boring holes in moons with eye lasers, using mind control, and throwing ENTIRE PLANETS around in Game Over to...just sort of kicking the kids and hitting them with her trident, and I think some light telekinesis to toss them around. I guess Hussie realized he made her too powerful for it to be any sort of fair fight, and had to scale her back. (Not sure why he wouldn't just scale the kids' powers UP in that case, hammer home that they actually are better trained and more powerful this time around, but, eh, not my comic.) Side-effect of serial power escalation, I suppose. Homestuck really DID become an anime, didn't it?
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 22, 2016 1:57:43 GMT
Coincidences are not the stuff of legend. They happen too sometimes. It's unbelievable that the post could have unintentionally been between 300 and 400 words before the edit? Yes. I'm not saying coincidences don't happen, but I really doubt that Hussie didn't plan out the newspost of the presumptive end of seven years of work that he knew everyone was going to read after watching Act 7. That's too big an opportunity to pass up, and given this is the guy who made reoccurring arc numbers out of the completely unimportant dates that different acts of the comic has premiered, and Volume 10 is crawling with 10/25s, it seems supremely unlikely it wasn't planned. But anyway, my point was only ever that the idea of an epilogue was not just a spur of the moment 'oh crap, everyone's pissed let's throw them a bone' kind of deal anyway. As long as that's clear, the rest doesn't matter to me that much. I do think the fights were much too easy though. The Condesce hardly used her abilities at all. She should've been able to put all of them to sleep. Or she could've just used telekinesis to hold them in the air while she stabbed them. I was expecting John to have to make strategic use of his retcon abilities in order to overcome her. But it turns out that in order to kill someone who's invincible you just have to stab them once. And Dave and Dirk got caught in Jack English's laser beams multiple times, but instead of getting vaporized they just sort of...tumbled around like it was tickling them? And the Felt hardly made use of their extensive time abilities at all, though I guess that can be explained by the fact that almost all of them are stupid. Not even to mention how easy it was to beat Lord English himself. The Condesce's power downgrade in particular was kind of jarring. She goes from boring holes in moons with eye lasers, using mind control, and throwing ENTIRE PLANETS around in Game Over to...just sort of kicking the kids and hitting them with her trident, and I think some light telekinesis to toss them around. I guess Hussie realized he made her too powerful for it to be any sort of fair fight, and had to scale her back. (Not sure why he wouldn't just scale the kids' powers UP in that case, hammer home that they actually are better trained and more powerful this time around, but, eh, not my comic.) Side-effect of serial power escalation, I suppose. Homestuck really DID become an anime, didn't it? Yeah this. In the long run making her and Union Jack that powerful might have been a mistake.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 22, 2016 3:37:32 GMT
Yeah this. In the long run making her and Union Jack that powerful might have been a mistake. In general Hussie seems to have a problem with people's power levels. Remember how Jade was constantly deprived of opportunities to use the powers that so easily could've solved a great deal of the problems? Or how Jane's Resurrection powers has an arbitrary limit placed upon it, because it'd be too powerful otherwise, but Husssie apparently needed yet another way for Death to not matter, and/or couldn't think of a better form of power for her? Or how Jake's Power appears to be fuelled by Plot Convenience(although I speculate that this may actually be a function of the Hope Aspect)? Or how John could clear an entire planet of it's underlings in Act 5, but since then never seemed to manage more than a single gust. Or how Rose's foresight, despite no indications of ever being unreliable, was almost never used in anything important.
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thedude3445
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Post by thedude3445 on Jun 22, 2016 4:08:26 GMT
It would've been nice if they had to confront Damara, Kurloz, and Meulin, but I assume they were left out for the same reason that most of the good Beforus trolls were left out. Gamzee was locked up in a fridge, so they had no reason to want to let him out and fight him (besides, there's several reasons that they wouldn't be able to kill him). And I don't think the story has ever actually suggested that Aradia works for Lord English. She presumably helped Vriska find and carry the secret weapon, and we later saw her attack Lord English directly. At the very worst, she's portrayed as neutral. Though I do agree it's sad that her character was dropped after Act 5, even though she managed to survive. The Condesce and the kids both wanted to create the new universe, but the Condesce wanted to rule it, while the kids wanted it to be free. The last two times the Condesce ruled a planet, it ended horribly for billions. The Condesce wasn't necessarily opposed to the kids, but the kids had good reason to be opposed to her. As for Bec Noir, killing almost everyone has always been his biggest motivation. I don't think he was done abusing his omnipotence, he was probably just worn out from being chased. Besides, PM is a protagonist too, and she most certainly had a reason to want to fight him. And if the kids had tried fighting him, they almost certainly would have died. I do think the fights were much too easy though. The Condesce hardly used her abilities at all. She should've been able to put all of them to sleep. Or she could've just used telekinesis to hold them in the air while she stabbed them. I was expecting John to have to make strategic use of his retcon abilities in order to overcome her. But it turns out that in order to kill someone who's invincible you just have to stab them once. And Dave and Dirk got caught in Jack English's laser beams multiple times, but instead of getting vaporized they just sort of...tumbled around like it was tickling them? And the Felt hardly made use of their extensive time abilities at all, though I guess that can be explained by the fact that almost all of them are stupid. Not even to mention how easy it was to beat Lord English himself. Aradia was never directly hinted at working for Lord English, but there were several lines she made post-God Tier resurrection that seemed very ominous. Nothing really came of it though. The Condesce may have needed to be a direct villain to the kids, but again her connection to Lord English and her weird plot to defeat him never actually went anywhere and it was kind of confusing. She really should have fought Lord English himself and lost, especially with her massive planet-throwing, seemingly-invincible powers (as the Thief of Life and Lord English's herald, shouldn't she have some sort of invincibility that would have brought her back after being stabbed once? whatever). Bec Noir definitely wasn't really concerned with killing everyone and everything anymore. Even as early as Act 6 Intermission 3 he was already basically done with that. Of course, he wasn't a good guy by any means and definitely still killed dozens of characters in the first five Acts, but it seemed like Hussie was starting to put him on a path of redemption so that he could help fight against Lord English himself. It's a typical anime/cartoon trope to take the villains of one season or story arc and then eventually turn them into heroes or anti-heroes against the Power Escalation Villain. Dragon Ball Z of course does it several times, and while Homestuck is no anime, it seemed like Bec Noir didn't really have any other reason for being in the plot still if he wasn't going to do anything significant. And... looks like that's exactly what happened in the end.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jun 22, 2016 4:44:10 GMT
Aradia was never directly hinted at working for Lord English, but there were several lines she made post-God Tier resurrection that seemed very ominous. Nothing really came of it though. If I'm thinking of the same lines you are, I didn't find them ominous as such, I think that it's just a mix of Aradia A) deliberately playing up her creepy shtick for her own entertainment and/or B) being somewhat cavalier about events compared to the other heroes. I think her behaviour was perhaps a little over-contrasted in that so many of the other Good Guys very much had that "We need to save the world and triumph over evil" sort of cliche hero behaviour. In many other stories with slightly more realistic or cynical atmospheres, I think she would fit right in with the group of heroes.
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Post by melonlord on Jun 22, 2016 8:14:36 GMT
Derailing the conversation a bit here, but has anyone else messed around with synching up Act 7 to other songs? I've been experimenting, and playing Creata at around the 0:22 mark of the video actually works fairly well. Gives a completely different tone and implication to the second half of the flash.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 9:41:14 GMT
Derailing the conversation a bit here, but has anyone else messed around with synching up Act 7 to other songs? I've been experimenting, and playing Creata at around the 0:22 mark of the video actually works fairly well. Gives a completely different tone and implication to the second half of the flash. le wins i'm tellin' ya, le wins them all over s u c k e r s
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Post by Blaperile on Jun 22, 2016 10:04:12 GMT
I think the fact that The Condesce didn't go all out on them in their fight was because, as we saw before, that would just create a lot of destruction, and she knew she still needed her kingdom. Plus, she probably didn't want to kill Roxy. She wouldn't have known that Roxy had already created the Matriorb, she probably wanted to keep her alive to make it later for her. Coincidences are not the stuff of legend. They happen too sometimes. And then we had the whole PlEaSe StOp. YoU'rE mOtHeRfUcKiN hUrTiNg Me. ( bit which, to me at least, seemed like we were in for a nice arc where the characters would actually realise that Gamzee is more an indoctrinated/mentally ill victim than an enemy, and they might actually help him. But no. Retcon happens and it's just the Honkening again. On top of these good points, which are a shame, I was also hoping we'd get to see more insight into what he thinks about Caliborn and about serving him, especially if it led to a moment where he could at the critical moment betray his master for his former friends and the greater good, but that never happens and he dies an ineffectual lackey with no character growth, essentially on tier with the Felt in that regard. But I suppose if we were never going to see a conclusive final battle with him, then there really wouldn't be room for a last-minute heel-face turn like that. And him going out the way he does still speaks to his character, in a sort of depressing way. It seems to me that two years into their journey (pre-retcon) Gamzee still cared enough about Karkat, if he wasn't lying to Rose: ROSE: This is a really startling revelation, I must say. ROSE: It's a game changer. GAMZEE: HEY. GAMZEE: please don't all tell at this noise to anyone. GAMZEE: IF KARKAT MOTHER FUCKIN KNEW ON THIS... GAMZEE: he actually would want to kill me. ( ROSE: Yes, I can see the dilemma you're in. ROSE: Your social dynamics really begin to get complicated once your quadrants start to fill up, don't they? GAMZEE: MOTHER FUCK YEAH THEY MOTHER FUCKING DO. ROSE: Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me. ROSE: Now shoo. Back into the ventilation system with you, before you're spotted.But then, when the 3 years are over, Gamzee had stopped caring about Karkat: KARKAT: YEAH. UH. KARKAT: GAMZEE ENDED OUR MOIRALLEGIANCE QUITE SOME TIME AGO. DAVE: oh shit DAVE: sorry to hear about that KARKAT: IT'S FINE. IT WAS REALLY A DEAD END PALE RELATIONSHIP. KARKAT: AT FIRST IT REALLY SEEMED LIKE I WAS A NECESSARY PART OF HIS LIFE, KEEPING HIS SHIT UNDER CONTROL... KARKAT: BUT AS TIME WENT ON HE JUST GOT COMPLETELY DISINTERESTED AND WASN'T KEEPING UP WITH HIS END OF THE THING AT ALL. KARKAT: HE STARTED GETTING SO UNBELIEVABLY SELF SATISFIED AND PIOUS, LIKE WAY MORE THAN HE EVER WAS BEFORE. KARKAT: LIKE HE'S JUST SO COMPLETELY CONVINCED HE'S FOUND HIS CALLING, THAT THIS SESSION IS THE GATEWAY TO THE PROMISED LAND WHERE HE'LL FULFILL HIS DESTINY. KARKAT: HE'S SO CAUGHT UP IN HIS IDIOTIC SCHEMES HE COULDN'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ME ANYMORE.And when Gamzee said that first thing, he was still in his normal outfit, suggesting he hadn't encountered Kurloz yet at that point. It seems to me that Kurloz is what pushed Gamzee over the edge so that he wouldn't care about his friends anymore. Perhaps if Gamzee had never met Kurloz in the Dreambubbles he'd still have cared enough about his friends not to completely destroy Terezi and not to kill Karkat by the time they got into the session. Act 6 Finale would have been much better if Lord English's servants were the ones that they were actually fighting. We had Jack English and the Felt (if the Felt were even actually serving him by this point, it was kind of vague), but then Spades Slick, PM/Bec Noir, and the Condesce were all off doing their own thing, and the Condesce was actively trying to rebel against LE. But we had Gamzee, Damara, Kurloz, apaprently Meulin (and my memory suggests Cronus too but I might be misremembering) all as characters aligned to help Lord English in his path of destruction. Aradia's motivations were vague and suspcious for the whole of Act 6 and her being Lord English's servant was still a very popular theory up until the Gigapause. Very disappointing to see most of these dudes go nowhere. Cronus didn't serve Lord English. In fact, it was 'originally' his destiny to fight Lord English before it was passed on to Eridan who then passed it on to Jake. Anyway, yeah I would have liked to see more of Damara and Kurloz as well. Oh well. Perhaps they didn't do anything because they wanted to leave the work to Lord English? They did at least keep themselves out of the ghost army so there's that. (Crack theory: the actual conclusion of the Lord English fight is that Kurloz and Damara jump in front of him to receive that blast coming out of it) Without going into any plotholes or loose ends or whatever, there were just too many heroes against too few villains in the final battle, and the most powerful villains (Bec Noir and Condesce) weren't even necessarily opposed to the kids in their motivations. For the Condesce, her motivations only aligned with those of the heroes in that she wanted to break free from Lord English, create a new universe and that she wanted to restore the Troll race. But if it was up to her, she'd by the tyrant ruling over it, turning it into a shithole all over again. There was no way they could get her on their side.
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The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by The One Guy on Jun 22, 2016 14:04:37 GMT
That's too big an opportunity to pass up, and given this is the guy who made reoccurring arc numbers out of the completely unimportant dates that different acts of the comic has premiered, and Volume 10 is crawling with 10/25s, it seems supremely unlikely it wasn't planned. ...In all fairness, all the 10/25s in Volume 10 were put in there by the music team, not Hussie. It seems to me that two years into their journey (pre-retcon) Gamzee still cared enough about Karkat, if he wasn't lying to Rose: ROSE: This is a really startling revelation, I must say. ROSE: It's a game changer. GAMZEE: HEY. GAMZEE: please don't all tell at this noise to anyone. GAMZEE: IF KARKAT MOTHER FUCKIN KNEW ON THIS... GAMZEE: he actually would want to kill me. ( ROSE: Yes, I can see the dilemma you're in. ROSE: Your social dynamics really begin to get complicated once your quadrants start to fill up, don't they? GAMZEE: MOTHER FUCK YEAH THEY MOTHER FUCKING DO. ROSE: Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me. ROSE: Now shoo. Back into the ventilation system with you, before you're spotted.Uh, you're saying "I don't want him to want to kill me" = "I have feelings for him"?
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 22, 2016 14:34:32 GMT
That's too big an opportunity to pass up, and given this is the guy who made reoccurring arc numbers out of the completely unimportant dates that different acts of the comic has premiered, and Volume 10 is crawling with 10/25s, it seems supremely unlikely it wasn't planned. ...In all fairness, all the 10/25s in Volume 10 were put in there by the music team, not Hussie. I'm assuming a level of oversight. Honestly though it feels like the numbers weren't that warranted looking at and listening to the music. It feels like there's significantly more stuff from the kids' side of things than the trolls'.
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