imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by imglasses on Jun 25, 2016 23:40:46 GMT
Eh, many people think it's a miniature Skaia that doesn't actually lead to the real Skaia while also many people think it leads to the actual Skaia, so it's hard to say for sure anyway. Jane's fork was almost certainly derived from the King's Scepter, and in Act 5 we saw the scepter lying in a river and no torrential downpour happened as a result. Plus, while SBurb certainly has it's share of stupid things, making the King's Scepters affect the game's centre piece is beyond stupid. If they could affect the Battle field, there would be no need for a reckoning, the Black King would just dunk the scepter into lava as soon as he got it. And there's also LE's scepter which has the Green Sun on it. That got sucked into a black hole in Collide, so if it were actually the Green Sun, the Green Sun wouldve been destroyed before Calliope even did anything. I suppose I can buy the Condesce wanting to kill them on her own, though. After they won the battle on Derse, her ego might've demanded that she show them that she's better than them. What I'm more upset about is Lord English, though. We were explicitly told that he knew that the white juju was his weakness. And we saw that he was afraid of it, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever found it. When he saw Vriska walking towards him with it, why did he just stand there for like, a full minute, waiting for her to bring it to him and deploy it? He could have vaporized her, even blown up the entire dream bubble. Or he could have flown away. Or he could have time traveled out of there completely. Plus, he's a Lord of Time. His big thing was always the fact that causality and inevitability bend to his will, the efforts of the protagonists always ultimately serving his own goals. It seems like Hussie ignored every single thing that had always made him threatening just to hurry up and end the story. The only other explanation that makes sense is that LE wanted the juju brought to him (maybe he wanted to follow the kids into their new universe through the door or something). But if the ending was just Lord English's ultimate victory over the protagonists, then it's even less satisfying, especially if it's done that vaguely.
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on Jun 25, 2016 23:54:16 GMT
Jane's fork was almost certainly derived from the King's Scepter, and in Act 5 we saw the scepter lying in a river and no torrential downpour happened as a result. Plus, while SBurb certainly has it's share of stupid things, making the King's Scepters affect the game's centre piece is beyond stupid. If they could affect the Battle field, there would be no need for a reckoning, the Black King would just dunk the scepter into lava as soon as he got it. And there's also LE's scepter which has the Green Sun on it. That got sucked into a black hole in Collide, so if it were actually the Green Sun, the Green Sun wouldve been destroyed before Calliope even did anything. I suppose I can buy the Condesce wanting to kill them on her own, though. After they won the battle on Derse, her ego might've demanded that she show them that she's better than them. What I'm more upset about is Lord English, though. We were explicitly told that he knew that the white juju was his weakness. And we saw that he was afraid of it, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever found it. When he saw Vriska walking towards him with it, why did he just stand there for like, a full minute, waiting for her to bring it to him and deploy it? He could have vaporized her, even blown up the entire dream bubble. Or he could have flown away. Or he could have time traveled out of there completely. Plus, he's a Lord of Time. His big thing was always the fact that causality and inevitability bend to his will, the efforts of the protagonists always ultimately serving his own goals. It seems like Hussie ignored every single thing that had always made him threatening just to hurry up and end the story. The only other explanation that makes sense is that LE wanted the juju brought to him (maybe he wanted to follow the kids into their new universe through the door or something). But if the ending was just Lord English's ultimate victory over the protagonists, then it's even less satisfying, especially if it's done that vaguely. It is because Lord English is a being of inevitability, and he knows the Juju is destined to be used against him. He tried to avert that eventuality, and it did not work. He no longer believes he can do anything. He has given up. That is my interpretation.
|
|
imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by imglasses on Jun 26, 2016 0:13:46 GMT
And there's also LE's scepter which has the Green Sun on it. That got sucked into a black hole in Collide, so if it were actually the Green Sun, the Green Sun wouldve been destroyed before Calliope even did anything. I suppose I can buy the Condesce wanting to kill them on her own, though. After they won the battle on Derse, her ego might've demanded that she show them that she's better than them. What I'm more upset about is Lord English, though. We were explicitly told that he knew that the white juju was his weakness. And we saw that he was afraid of it, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever found it. When he saw Vriska walking towards him with it, why did he just stand there for like, a full minute, waiting for her to bring it to him and deploy it? He could have vaporized her, even blown up the entire dream bubble. Or he could have flown away. Or he could have time traveled out of there completely. Plus, he's a Lord of Time. His big thing was always the fact that causality and inevitability bend to his will, the efforts of the protagonists always ultimately serving his own goals. It seems like Hussie ignored every single thing that had always made him threatening just to hurry up and end the story. The only other explanation that makes sense is that LE wanted the juju brought to him (maybe he wanted to follow the kids into their new universe through the door or something). But if the ending was just Lord English's ultimate victory over the protagonists, then it's even less satisfying, especially if it's done that vaguely. It is because Lord English is a being of inevitability, and he knows the Juju is destined to be used against him. He tried to avert that eventuality, and it did not work. He no longer believes he can do anything. He has given up. That is my interpretation. There was no implication that it was destined to be used against him, only that it was the only thing that could be used against him. Eventuality is supposed to go his way, as a Lord of Time. That's how he's always worked, and that's what always made him threatening and seemingly untouchable. Inevitability shouldn't have forced him into that situation in the first place. The fact that it did only shows that Hussie chose to ignore LE's most powerful ability. And Lord English is the very last person in the entire comic I would expect to give up on anything.
|
|
|
Post by melonlord on Jun 26, 2016 3:32:47 GMT
It is because Lord English is a being of inevitability, and he knows the Juju is destined to be used against him. He tried to avert that eventuality, and it did not work. He no longer believes he can do anything. He has given up. That is my interpretation. But there was seriously nothing stopping him from just blowing up the bubble. Mouthlaser. Bam. No more army. Get fucked, destiny. I mean...was Lord English afraid that he, master of inevitability, would end up in a doomed timeline or something? Did he think that paradox space would just swallow up his attacks if he tried to fight back? I'm not seeing the bit where he tried to avert them getting the weapon and was thwarted by destiny. Heck, he led them straight to the weapon himself! (Unless he's smart enough to succumb to existential despair at the realization that he was but another pawn in destiny's grand game all along, but too stupid to realize he was going in a circle.) I just can't see it. Where did the kids trample all over his plans and make him lose confidence in himself? You're arguing that he essentially committed suicide by spidertroll because he didn't believe in himself, which is like...more or less the opposite of how I would expect a combination of Caliborn, Lil Hal, Gamzee and Equius to act. If anything, that's a worldview I'd expect from Calliope.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 26, 2016 4:34:42 GMT
Yeah there's no reason for Lord English to have any doubts about himself. At no point in the entire story was Lord English ever threatened, hurt, hindered, thwarted, tricked, delayed or otherwise knocked down a peg in any way. Regardless of how anyone speculates the JuJu works there's no reason for Lord English to have any sort of fear or doubt about its appearance. If it needs to be used close to him, then he would've just flown away. If it didn't need to be close to him, then it would've activated already but it didn't. It'd be like Sauron actually just letting the Hobbits simply walk into Mordor saying "Well shit, they got their hands on the ring, there's absolutely nothing me and my armies can do about it."
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on Jun 26, 2016 4:46:18 GMT
Could you at least buy that he was in shock? I mean, nothing had ever not gone his way, and he thought he had gotten rid of the one thing that could stop him. Then suddenly, it appears. Also, I sort of doubt that he knew he was going in a circle. The nature of the Furthest Ring makes that a hard thing to do. He thought he was chasing them away from his one weakness, but Paradox Space thwarted him and he ended up chasing them right to it.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 26, 2016 5:07:27 GMT
Could you at least buy that he was in shock? I mean, nothing had ever not gone his way, and he thought he had gotten rid of the one thing that could stop him. Then suddenly, it appears. Also, I sort of doubt that he knew he was going in a circle. The nature of the Furthest Ring makes that a hard thing to do. He thought he was chasing them away from his one weakness, but Paradox Space thwarted him and he ended up chasing them right to it. No not really. I could buy that he might be mildly surprised. But mildly surprised people don't stand perfectly still for several minutes when the mere fact that the Ghost Army were making a stand means they obviously had something in plan and when it comes to anti-English plans, there's only so many possible trump-cards they could try to roll out. Not to mention that this is Lord English; part Caliborn, who made his way through a number of challenges with impossibly short dead lines, and part Lil Hal, who is a scheming super computer. I don't think he's even capable of indecisiveness. Plus I doubt Caliborn is so stupid to think that he'd permanently destroyed the JuJu. He himself expositioned to us the rule about JuJus never being destroyed and also he saw that he himself would get Voided in a similar manner and knew he'd be back.
|
|
|
Post by Blaperile on Jun 26, 2016 8:56:01 GMT
Eh, many people think it's a miniature Skaia that doesn't actually lead to the real Skaia while also many people think it leads to the actual Skaia, so it's hard to say for sure anyway. Jane's fork was almost certainly derived from the King's Scepter, and in Act 5 we saw the scepter lying in a river and no torrential downpour happened as a result. Plus, while SBurb certainly has it's share of stupid things, making the King's Scepters affect the game's centre piece is beyond stupid. If they could affect the Battle field, there would be no need for a reckoning, the Black King would just dunk the scepter into lava as soon as he got it. The thing is, we already know the sceptres affect the real Skaia in some way. They start and stop the Reckoning on the real Skaia. That's why I don't think it's unreasonable it effects the real Skaia in other ways too. Also, there's a good reason why Skaia wasn't effected by any rain when WK's sceptre fell into the river: it never got wet. It's lying there on a rock, just high enough not to get wet. And maybe the Black King just doesn't realize he can hurt Skaia in that way, or he knows the Reckoning is a necessary part of the game. What I'm more upset about is Lord English, though. We were explicitly told that he knew that the white juju was his weakness. And we saw that he was afraid of it, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever found it. When he saw Vriska walking towards him with it, why did he just stand there for like, a full minute, waiting for her to bring it to him and deploy it? He could have vaporized her, even blown up the entire dream bubble. Or he could have flown away. Or he could have time traveled out of there completely. Plus, he's a Lord of Time. His big thing was always the fact that causality and inevitability bend to his will, the efforts of the protagonists always ultimately serving his own goals. It seems like Hussie ignored every single thing that had always made him threatening just to hurry up and end the story. The only other explanation that makes sense is that LE wanted the juju brought to him (maybe he wanted to follow the kids into their new universe through the door or something). But if the ending was just Lord English's ultimate victory over the protagonists, then it's even less satisfying, especially if it's done that vaguely. Lord English perhaps just assumed, like Vriska did, that the Plot Hole would simply release the B1 Kids from their prison and nothing else, and that he believed he'd be capable of handling them just like how he handled the ghost army and Davepetasprite^2.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Jun 26, 2016 10:57:30 GMT
The thing is, we already know the sceptres affect the real Skaia in some way. They start and stop the Reckoning on the real Skaia. That's why I don't think it's unreasonable it effects the real Skaia in other ways too. It affected the meteors. It didn't do anything to Skaia itself.
|
|
|
Post by drifloon on Jun 26, 2016 12:15:46 GMT
Lord English perhaps just assumed, like Vriska did, that the Plot Hole would simply release the B1 Kids from their prison and nothing else, and that he believed he'd be capable of handling them just like how he handled the ghost army and Davepetasprite^2. If he thought that was all it did, though, he wouldn't have been frightened enough of it to seal it into the void in the first place, right?
|
|
|
Post by tentacleTherapist on Jun 26, 2016 12:32:59 GMT
Jane's fork was almost certainly derived from the King's Scepter, and in Act 5 we saw the scepter lying in a river and no torrential downpour happened as a result. Plus, while SBurb certainly has it's share of stupid things, making the King's Scepters affect the game's centre piece is beyond stupid. If they could affect the Battle field, there would be no need for a reckoning, the Black King would just dunk the scepter into lava as soon as he got it. The thing is, we already know the sceptres affect the real Skaia in some way. They start and stop the Reckoning on the real Skaia. That's why I don't think it's unreasonable it effects the real Skaia in other ways too. Also, there's a good reason why Skaia wasn't effected by any rain when WK's sceptre fell into the river: it never got wet. It's lying there on a rock, just high enough not to get wet. And maybe the Black King just doesn't realize he can hurt Skaia in that way, or he knows the Reckoning is a necessary part of the game. I can't remember exactly where it is, but at some point it is mentioned that the Kings and Queens of the session intentionally follow the rules of the game out of some form of honor. Both the Black and White Kings and Black and White Queens force themselves to not use underhanded tactics like that, which is why you don't see the Black Queen sending assassins to kill the dreamselves; it's another figure that usurps control and takes over the session (the Condesce, Jack Noir, etc.). If this mechanic existed, it can be expected that the Kings wouldn't exploit it to gain an advantage, since they follow the intended path of the game. Jack Noir would, but we don't know if he would be aware of it if it existed.
|
|
imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by imglasses on Jun 26, 2016 14:27:37 GMT
Could you at least buy that he was in shock? I mean, nothing had ever not gone his way, and he thought he had gotten rid of the one thing that could stop him. Then suddenly, it appears. He knew it still existed, he just thought it was well-hidden. I could buy that he was in shock if it resolved anything (though it still seems out-of-character, as obsidalicious said). But there is absolutely no way he would stand there in shock for minutes while Vriska slowly walked towards him with the weapon and then deployed it. He had several very easy ways out of that situation. That would be like if back in Act 5, John slowly walked towards Bec Noir with his hammer (which we saw can hurt him), and Bec Noir just stood there, horrified, for minutes, deciding it was inevitable that he was about to die. Even though he could just kill John in less than a second or teleport away. It doesn't make sense. What I'm more upset about is Lord English, though. We were explicitly told that he knew that the white juju was his weakness. And we saw that he was afraid of it, and wanted to ensure that nobody ever found it. When he saw Vriska walking towards him with it, why did he just stand there for like, a full minute, waiting for her to bring it to him and deploy it? He could have vaporized her, even blown up the entire dream bubble. Or he could have flown away. Or he could have time traveled out of there completely. Plus, he's a Lord of Time. His big thing was always the fact that causality and inevitability bend to his will, the efforts of the protagonists always ultimately serving his own goals. It seems like Hussie ignored every single thing that had always made him threatening just to hurry up and end the story. The only other explanation that makes sense is that LE wanted the juju brought to him (maybe he wanted to follow the kids into their new universe through the door or something). But if the ending was just Lord English's ultimate victory over the protagonists, then it's even less satisfying, especially if it's done that vaguely. Lord English perhaps just assumed, like Vriska did, that the Plot Hole would simply release the B1 Kids from their prison and nothing else, and that he believed he'd be capable of handling them just like how he handled the ghost army and Davepetasprite^2. Still, why would he wait a while for Vriska to come to him and free the B1 kids at all? Out of courtesy? He was the one who wanted them trapped in there in the first place. And like I said, he did know that it was somehow a threat to him.
|
|
Georgie
Plucky Tot
Mage of Breath, apparently.
Posts: 27
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by Georgie on Jun 26, 2016 15:15:35 GMT
I can't remember exactly where it is, but at some point it is mentioned that the Kings and Queens of the session intentionally follow the rules of the game out of some form of honor. Both the Black and White Kings and Black and White Queens force themselves to not use underhanded tactics like that, which is why you don't see the Black Queen sending assassins to kill the dreamselves; it's another figure that usurps control and takes over the session (the Condesce, Jack Noir, etc.). If this mechanic existed, it can be expected that the Kings wouldn't exploit it to gain an advantage, since they follow the intended path of the game. Jack Noir would, but we don't know if he would be aware of it if it existed. It's discussed briefly by B2 Jack and CD here shortly after Jane's dream self is killed, but I'm fairly certain that it's also been mentioned elsewhere by Rose or Calliope or something. Anyway, the tips of the Kings' Sceptres having the ability to affect the state of Skaia seems like pretty poor game design, considering the fact that the Black King's Sceptre is actually supposed to be destroyed in order to remove his prototypings and stop the Reckoning. Are the players only supposed to damage the rod itself whilst avoiding dealing any damage to the tip? What would happen if they accidentally struck it with a powerful fraymotif and blew it up? Would that just outright destroy Skaia? That doesn't sound very fair. We also don't know for certain whether or not Jane's Skaia forks are actually related to the Kings' Sceptres in any way. They look similar, yes, but there are countless visual callbacks all throughout the comic. Even if one were to take the whole lava raining down on Skaia thing literally rather than symbolically, we don't know if the same thing would happen with one of Kings' Sceptres. (In addition, and I'm only really bringing this up for laughs, seeing as there are two sceptres—one for each king—per session, what would the result be if, say, one were to be dunked in water whilst the other was dunked in lava? Or if one were placed in a furnace whilst the other was placed in a freezer? I imagine that Skaia would collapse in on itself due to the sheer absurdity and implausibility of the situation.)
|
|
loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
|
Post by loading on Jun 26, 2016 18:35:27 GMT
To me, it's pretty obvious that the representation is symbolic only, not literal. But, playing along, what if you bang them into each other?
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on Jun 26, 2016 19:10:53 GMT
To me, it's pretty obvious that the representation is symbolic only, not literal. But, playing along, what if you bang them into each other? What if you shrink one and drop it on the other?
|
|
|
Post by spacedwarfindustries on Jun 26, 2016 21:28:22 GMT
I got the impression that the big Bubble-exploding requires him to not be interrupted, seeing as he starts the giant mouth-laser of death that led to the bubble exploding in [_s] Caliborn Enter twice in [_S] Collide, and immediately gets tackled by a hero each time he tries
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on Jun 26, 2016 21:33:20 GMT
I got the impression that the big Bubble-exploding requires him to not be interrupted, seeing as he starts the giant mouth-laser of death that led to the bubble exploding in [_s] Caliborn Enter twice in [_S] Collide, and immediately gets tackled by a hero each time he tries You know, I think you might be right. In Caliborn: Enter., everyone just sort of stood around and did nothing.
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 26, 2016 21:37:43 GMT
What if you shrink one and drop it on the other? Honeybee Professor would have some strong words for you.
|
|
Georgie
Plucky Tot
Mage of Breath, apparently.
Posts: 27
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by Georgie on Jun 26, 2016 21:49:29 GMT
To me, it's pretty obvious that the representation is symbolic only, not literal. But, playing along, what if you bang them into each other? Well, going by the laws of physics, as loosely defined as they are in Paradox Space, Skaia would go hurtling off into the Furthest Ring unless you somehow managed to get the angle of impact just right. What if you shrink one and drop it on the other? Honeybee Professor would have some strong words for you. Honestly, this is all the sort of stuff that Act 5 Rose should have been looking into, not tearing apart temples and terrorising turtles.
|
|
loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
|
Post by loading on Jun 26, 2016 22:46:00 GMT
Ok, but if Skaia hits Skaia, which way does it go?
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Jun 27, 2016 0:29:58 GMT
To me, it's pretty obvious that the representation is symbolic only, not literal. But, playing along, what if you bang them into each other? To me it sounds kind of stupid to think that the scepter literally contains Skaia.
|
|
Georgie
Plucky Tot
Mage of Breath, apparently.
Posts: 27
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by Georgie on Jun 27, 2016 9:06:42 GMT
Ok, but if Skaia hits Skaia, which way does it go? That's what I was trying to refer to! If the "front" of one Skaia hit the "back" of the other (opposite sides meet, basically), nothing would happen due to the forces on Skaia being equal and opposite. At any other angle of impact, the overall force would cause Skaia to accelerate in a particular direction, and the force would be maximised if the "front" of one Skaia hit the "front" of the other (same sides meet/"head on" collision). This is all saying nothing, however, of what would happen to Skaia during the time of impact, which would most likely be highly devastating regardless of its subsequent motion. Never could resist an outlandish mechanics problem.
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on Jun 27, 2016 9:22:14 GMT
What if you shrink one and drop it on the other? Honeybee Professor would have some strong words for you. Wait, no, shrink it just enough to fit it in there, leaving you with a giant scepter, then hurl the other scepter into it.
|
|
|
Post by Blaperile on Jun 27, 2016 10:01:21 GMT
Lord English perhaps just assumed, like Vriska did, that the Plot Hole would simply release the B1 Kids from their prison and nothing else, and that he believed he'd be capable of handling them just like how he handled the ghost army and Davepetasprite^2. If he thought that was all it did, though, he wouldn't have been frightened enough of it to seal it into the void in the first place, right? When he was still young Caliborn he knew he was too weak to handle the B1 Kids and B2 Kids all at the same time. When he was Lord English, he was confident about handling thousands of ghosts (including God Tiers) in the ghost army, so I wouldn't be surprised if by that point he believed he could also handle the B1 Kids. I can't remember exactly where it is, but at some point it is mentioned that the Kings and Queens of the session intentionally follow the rules of the game out of some form of honor. Both the Black and White Kings and Black and White Queens force themselves to not use underhanded tactics like that, which is why you don't see the Black Queen sending assassins to kill the dreamselves; it's another figure that usurps control and takes over the session (the Condesce, Jack Noir, etc.). If this mechanic existed, it can be expected that the Kings wouldn't exploit it to gain an advantage, since they follow the intended path of the game. Jack Noir would, but we don't know if he would be aware of it if it existed. It's discussed briefly by B2 Jack and CD here shortly after Jane's dream self is killed, but I'm fairly certain that it's also been mentioned elsewhere by Rose or Calliope or something. Anyway, the tips of the Kings' Sceptres having the ability to affect the state of Skaia seems like pretty poor game design, considering the fact that the Black King's Sceptre is actually supposed to be destroyed in order to remove his prototypings and stop the Reckoning. Are the players only supposed to damage the rod itself whilst avoiding dealing any damage to the tip? What would happen if they accidentally struck it with a powerful fraymotif and blew it up? Would that just outright destroy Skaia? That doesn't sound very fair. We also don't know for certain whether or not Jane's Skaia forks are actually related to the Kings' Sceptres in any way. They look similar, yes, but there are countless visual callbacks all throughout the comic. Even if one were to take the whole lava raining down on Skaia thing literally rather than symbolically, we don't know if the same thing would happen with one of Kings' Sceptres. (In addition, and I'm only really bringing this up for laughs, seeing as there are two sceptres—one for each king—per session, what would the result be if, say, one were to be dunked in water whilst the other was dunked in lava? Or if one were placed in a furnace whilst the other was placed in a freezer? I imagine that Skaia would collapse in on itself due to the sheer absurdity and implausibility of the situation.) Or it's only the White King's sceptre (and sceptres that are derived from it such as Jane's) that has that kind of effect on Skaia while the Black King's sceptre doesn't.
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Jun 27, 2016 11:20:03 GMT
If he thought that was all it did, though, he wouldn't have been frightened enough of it to seal it into the void in the first place, right? When he was still young Caliborn he knew he was too weak to handle the B1 Kids and B2 Kids all at the same time. When he was Lord English, he was confident about handling thousands of ghosts (including God Tiers) in the ghost army, so I wouldn't be surprised if by that point he believed he could also handle the B1 Kids. See that's exactly the problem. We have no idea if the beta kids were actually able to defeat Lord English, and it would have been super badass to actually see them do just that instead of just have the chest flash with their aspect symbols which basically gives us no new information.
|
|