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Post by csj on Jun 15, 2017 15:35:43 GMT
While others have already made their own takes on Homestuck as a tabletop RPG, there's always been the problem of trying to emulate it through existing systems like OGL d20. The object of this project is to develop a whole new engine with S___b in mind. The main game documents will attempt to represent a 'vanilla' Sburb session; basically, imagine Homestuck without Lord English, with BK and BQ acting as antagonists in their stead. That does mean keeping fanon to a minimum, but will also make it easier to alter the game and game rules in whichever way people want. After all, people should be allowed to pick and choose fanon content. Some main design objectives are as follows: - Encourage Collaborative Storytelling - Open-ended item crafting system (YES, ALCHEMY! WOO!) - Pseudo-balanced mechanics (Fun>Perfection) - Expandable level system - Robust, semi-modular framework for custom content (ie; DIY fanon expansions) - An actually marketable RPG. Yes, as in something that can be taken to What Pumpkin and maybe even licensed (I can dream, lol). A big ask, but IMAGINE.... This thread will be used to answer questions, seek feedback on some design decisions and generally Get S**t Stuff Done. Current Status: Drafting Phase
NOTE: Despite still being drafted, over 10k words have been typed thus far. I'll be releasing some of this stuff as it's finalised but tldr; writing RPGs takes a long time. |
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Post by csj on Jun 15, 2017 17:01:37 GMT
So, now that's out of way, let's talk dice.
Sorry, but the game's at this, the most BORING stage of development. Essentially, I have had a hard time deciding between one of two options.
Option 1: Fixed d20 dice pool (5d20)
Under this mechanic, you roll five dice. Like in a d20 game, you aim to beat a given target number. However, success is not simply pass/fail. Instead, the number of rolls meeting or exceeding the target number is counted. Three or more passing rolls = success. I've done a hella amount of math and the like for this thus far, but there are some pros and cons.
Obviously, WotC's d20 system is the closest real-world analogue, but since this is built from the ground-up, the mechanics will be rather different. All dice rolls will be d20s for instance, because screw having to buy a whole bunch of dice to play.
+ Degrees of Success/Failure (No need to roll twice for crits ever again!)
+ Allows some fun dice mechanics (remove a die, add a die, boost 1 die, etc)
+ Scalable (Can handle large changes in player attributes, provided ingame challenges keep up)
- Big d20s on the table
- Potentially calculation-heavy (you will need to calculate a target number)
- Odds of success shift a lot from buffs
Option 2: d8 pool
Basically, somewhat like above, but with a larger number of smaller dice. Player stats determine how many dice are rolled. This could either be direct (ie; everyone starts with 1 die) or from a base (ie; everyone starts with 8 dice).
For those familiar with them, think games like Shadowrun, World of Darkness, and ye olde D6
+ Gr8est system ever!!!!!!!!
+ No big d20 dice
+ Easier to design
+ Also allows fun dice shenanigans
- More dice on the table
- Balancing numbers in base 4
- Can also require complex calculations
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Most design work has gone into option 1, but nothing has been fixed to it yet; there's not much yet to be lost from a switch and it might be faster in the long run.
If anyone wants to talk dice and/or share their opinion on this topic, please do so. I'll be busy IRL for a week, so I figure rather than waste that time, I may as well get this issue explored.
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Post by Wessolf27 on Jun 16, 2017 15:39:31 GMT
I'm interested in what's gonna happen, but I admit, I know jack shit about dice. I'd be interested in developing power sets for classes and aspects though. At least, when it comes to figuring out what each one of them does in relation to the comic.
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Post by csj on Jun 16, 2017 20:37:05 GMT
I'm interested in what's gonna happen, but I admit, I know jack shit about dice. I'd be interested in developing power sets for classes and aspects though. At least, when it comes to figuring out what each one of them does in relation to the comic. I've developed a number of ideas for implementation of Classpect which should make for fun and thematic gameplay. For example, there will be a 'luck' mechanic similar to how some games have 'fate points' and the like which gives a limited number of bonuses to rolls per roleplaying session. A Luck player would be able to rely on luck more often to win against the odds and would also get bonuses while doing so... until their luck runs out. What will be harder to implement are aspects like Space and Time, since they are by nature, reality-warping. Parallel timelines will probably be implemented as a sort of savepoint system or 'sixth sense'. Basically, if you're about to do something stupid, there's a chance that your future-self will prevent you doing it and if you do get stuck, you'll have a limited ability to reverse time - at a cost to sanity. It's rather well-established that time shenanigans messes with people's heads, even 'stoic'/'cool' people like Dave start to crack eventually. I kinda didn't expect too many people to help out with this kind of dense background mechanics stuff like dice systems, but it's what's holding development back at the moment. The fun stuff has to come later, but things should really ramp up once this stuff's done. |
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Post by Wessolf27 on Jun 17, 2017 0:10:07 GMT
That's alright. The way you suggest how luck works makes a whole lot of sense, and that with Time and Space, they seem to have a lot of caveats that make them a little more balanced rather than total game-breakers.
Like, the parallel universe deal or creating a way to revive a character via time like with Davesprite would've required that he made a deal with a Denizen and cost him a lot more than just a sanity drop.
Time loops seem to be a way to avoid the sanity drop, while creating Time Clones would definitely cause a huge hit in sanity with probably making the session a little more unluckier afterwards, like using up all their points just to finish the game.
Space powers on the other hand don't do much teleportation (FG thing) and more of size-shifting and creating or destroying distances. I guess take that as you will.
Also, maybe limit the dice pool to just 1-3 d20s and a couple of d10s? It would probably make the dice count a little simpler for everyone if the probability is within the 100 range.
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Post by csj on Jun 25, 2017 7:13:34 GMT
Dev Upd8!-------------------------
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I've decided to close the dice poll for now given the limited response, though there did seem to be a favouring of the 5d20-based option. This is a really important part of the game design to get right and I'll be seeking advice outside this forum for the next few weeks before I decide to solidify that aspect of the RPG engine.
In the meantime, I've been doing more work on the character creation side of things - primarily, 'classpect'. This will require a lot of snooping to ensure accuracy; I've got a clear overarchive picture of things, but I am not perfect at remembering and relaying all the detail around canon.
Now, here's something that people might be able to help with more than the last topic: Skills. Basically, skills are used in RPG systems to describe the kinds of actions people might want to undertake and give an idea of how proficient they are at using said skills. I've come up with a significant list of skills based almost exclusively on those found in Homestuck itself. However, I really want to expand this list out and continue using appropriate names for each skill.
Attached is a slightly outdated list of skills, along with the statistics that each skill is associated with and some related explanatory text. Hopefully it makes enough sense to get a feel for what skills will be like in the game.
skills quirks excerpt.docx (18.44 KB)
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The areas I'm looking to add more skills for are stuff that is most likely to be relevant for a SBURB session, as well as a few based on personal interests or hobbies a character might have.
The current skills list is biased a lot towards skills related to Pulchritude (Charisma and social IQ), Scamper (Agility & Dexterity) and Sleuth (Perception & Critical Thinking). To balance things out, I'd greatly appreciate suggestions for skills that might be tied to Imagination (Knowledge & Creativity), Mangrit (Physical strength & tenacity) or even Vim (Fortitude & Physical toughness).
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Post by Wessolf27 on Jun 25, 2017 16:55:57 GMT
Man, I love the descriptions on your skills. I'll add more into this post when I can think of something but here's a (MAN, Common) skill for you:
Guardian Might (?):
Your mangrit is so high you can lift things twice your weight. Somewhere out there, your guardian is feeling incredibly proud of you.
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Post by symphonicCrusader on Jul 1, 2017 23:49:50 GMT
I know you said that the dice pool bit was closed for now but have you ever thought about going with a more Call of Cthulhu style system where you use d100 to determine skill rolls. So your skills have a percentage so say your skill is "Alchemizing" if your skill level was at 40% you would have to roll under or at 40 and you succeed. It is a compact system that doesn't require alot of dice.
You can then go on to use a regular d10 for other things. So you use a d10 in the same way you might use a d20 in say 5E. 5 is average 6 is above average and so on. Your stats could add a +1 or +2 and so on. Keeping the numbers light and the mechanics fun. So say you have mangrit as a stat. and it gives you a +1 to roles that use that. So you roll a d10 to see if you can use your mangrit to lift something. You roll an 8, however you get a +1 to make it a nine.
I feel like leaning a little closer to fates mechanics could work better for a S____B related rpg since it allows you to tell stories better. and you can do something kind of like Exalted did with their charms. You have predefined abilities for classes and aspects, but you leave in a simple way for various abilities to be made. Same with making a seperate little doc for fannon class/pect creation guidelines. I would be so down with helping with every aspect of this, from making play-test stories and campaigns to the nitty gritty tables and background mechanics.
I love TTRPGs and I love HS, but also the Idea of S____B itself as a game. I highly recommend reading Sburb Glitch FAQ It is a sadly unfinished but expansive peice of fiction that talks about Sburb as if it was an actual game. In the way it is shown in HS. It does have some fanon class and aspect stuff but even that it makes feel "Real". I can also make pdf Character sheets.
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Post by csj on Jul 4, 2017 5:32:37 GMT
I know you said that the dice pool bit was closed for now but have you ever thought about going with a more Call of Cthulhu style system where you use d100 to determine skill rolls. So your skills have a percentage so say your skill is "Alchemizing" if your skill level was at 40% you would have to roll under or at 40 and you succeed. It is a compact system that doesn't require alot of dice.
Ah, good old percentage dice. I've played a number of systems lately based on it (Call of Cthulhu and all the 40K RPGs, all of them), so I'm rather familiar with it. It's not without its pros and cons. The main reason I've been looking more towards dice pools is to encourage people to think and play more within the setting. There's been plenty of times at the table where players debate about the odds of a decision based on mechanics rather than acting in-character. Dice pools have greater unpredictability and like I mentioned earlier, allow for things like 'drama dice', or 'exploding dice', where particular rolls have special effects, like allowing additional rolls or triggering events and the like. I'm still happy to talk dice if there's sufficient interest in the topic. I've just shifted focus to classpect and skills since I suspect that's what this forum will find more interesting and probably an area y'all can help with more readily than RPG mechanics.  |
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Post by csj on Jul 4, 2017 5:44:41 GMT
Thanks for the link, by the way. I read that a few years back; was one of the works I've reviewed and used as inspiration for general roleplaying in the past. I recall downloading it at some point, but I've re-added it to my research folder. Among other things, there's 3-4 other attempts at a Homestuck RPG that I'm reading through to examine their various approaches, strengths and weaknesses. One of those incidentally, was heavily inspired by the Glitch FAQ - you can find it here. The system it uses is focused very much on player interactions and behaviour/emotion, which is refreshing, but its specialisation on a particular AU is a little limiting. |
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Post by symphonicCrusader on Jul 4, 2017 11:30:14 GMT
What about something like this.
TG has a dice pool of 4 d8. Ever dice he rolls that's 4+ is a success, anything below is a fail. Every 1 counts as a counter towards something more happening than if he just fails. Every 8 does the same but towards successes. He needs 2 successes to pass what he is trying to to. He gets a 1 4 3 2, he fails to climb a really tall ladder and ends up falling on a pile of junk. Because of the 1 in there he ends up accidentally captalouging some of it causing an item to be ejected from his sylladex. And it can get progressivly worse and worse depending on how many fails there are. It is lite enough so that it doesn't slow game play but it still can add that explosive feel to play that doesn't feel unfai.
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Post by csj on Jul 16, 2017 19:49:02 GMT
What about something like this. TG has a dice pool of 4 d8. Ever dice he rolls that's 4+ is a success, anything below is a fail. Every 1 counts as a counter towards something more happening than if he just fails. Every 8 does the same but towards successes. He needs 2 successes to pass what he is trying to to. He gets a 1 4 3 2, he fails to climb a really tall ladder and ends up falling on a pile of junk. Because of the 1 in there he ends up accidentally captalouging some of it causing an item to be ejected from his sylladex. And it can get progressivly worse and worse depending on how many fails there are. It is lite enough so that it doesn't slow game play but it still can add that explosive feel to play that doesn't feel unfai. There's a number of different ways of handling it, and that's definitely one! However, the main requirement of the dicerolling system will need to be its ability to handle changes in player ability, to reflect players levelling-up over time. It's a complex topic and I'll revisit it later, but for now I have some other design issues to contend with, primarily regarding canon and canon-based speculation. |
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Post by csj on Jul 16, 2017 20:29:05 GMT
Dev Upd8 2
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A lot of progress has been made since the last update, but most of it has been in the form of research and refinement of Class and Aspect theories that will play a significant part in character creation. This isn't ready for public review just yet, but there's a number of issues to be contended with:
1. Pairing & Contrasting Aspects
There's loads of different interpretations when it comes to this. Personally, I see pairings as a matter of preference; as long as the combo makes sense, a GM and players should be able to run with it. That said, I'm leaning towards two specific class pairing structures. Until now, my planning has been for (A), but I have noticed a number of proponents for (B) and I can understand their arguments.
Structure A: Witch-Sylph, Maid-Heir
Pairings (Active First) - Thief & Rogue, Mage & Seer, Witch & Sylph, Prince & Bard, Knight & Page, Heir & Maid
Structure B: Witch-Heir, Maid-Sylph
Pairings - Thief & Rogue, Mage & Seer, Witch & Heir, Prince & Bard, Knight & Page, Maid & Sylph
The Differences seem relatively trivial, but each pairing will have ingame effects on stats. For example, Princes will will be able to learn Active abilities more easily and gain boosts to certain skills and attributes. Some of these will be shared with the paired Bard class, but these bonuses would be very different to that of a Seer. I've been unable to choose between the two so for now, I'm planning to write for both.
2. Classpect Theories & Speculation
I'm making a concerted effort to avoid having less substantiated theories built into the game. Because the aim is to make the game open to modding and custom sessions, these will be kept distinct where possible. I don't plan on writing too much in terms of the ingame effects of such theories, but the more popular ones will be reviewed and may have some optional rules included that players can apply if they so wish. An example of this would have to be the oh-so-controversial 'Inversion Theory' - something I think is pretty cool and possibly fun to roleplay, despite being overly-complex and based on an extreme interpretation of certain pieces of canon. There's no real room for it within the central game; expression of powers contrary to one's Aspect or Class will be largely up to the individual, rather than hard-wired stuff in S___b. Yet, it will definitely be mentioned, along with some suggestions on how to incorporate or avert it.
3. Classpect as a Story Device
Between the influence on player stats and the way it alters the choices of players, Classpect will inevitably drive gameplay in one direction or another. Overall, I'm approaching it as a story element that will guide each player's character arc, similar to its overall presentation within Homestuck. For example, a Thief will likely need to address conflict between their own needs and the needs of others; Denizens will offer choices that force decisions to the dilemmas underpinning each Classpect. Design and descriptions will revolve around highlighting and enhancing a story-based perspective.
I'm still refining my personal 'take' on Classpect. Again, it won't be mandated; I'll leave it up to the GM to decide how to describe Classpect to players and which interpretation/s best suit the kind of story the players want.
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As before, I'm keen to hear what people think of the above, especially if there's stuff you'd like included/excluded/potato, what pairings you like best., whose theories you like/hate/potato, all that good stuff.
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Post by csj on Jul 30, 2017 0:30:58 GMT
Dev Upd8 #3------------------------- ------------------------- This may be the last update for a while. Why? I am a university student, so this project is something I generally only have time for during downtime. While I have dedicated a lot of time to this lately, this time will disappear soon, as the semester starts NEXT WEEK! I'll still be working on stuff - probably more focus again on mechanics and system-dependent things like Alchemy... but the posting frequency will be lower as a result. In the meantime, I've added a link to the dedicated SVRSE Tumblr blog on the OP where I'll be posting written content as it's drafted. I've already added some stuff on Classpect as well as current working conceptualisations of Aspect and Class. You'll also see a big textwall post on some of the philosophical elements of roleplaying that are influencing the design. The Class page only has stuff for Structure A (see earlier upd8). The alternate pairings will require a limited amount of reworking, but since Class and Aspect are subject to change this is best revisited later when there's a better idea of exactly how Classpect will affect player stats. Blog content might include more general ramblings and thoughts on RPG design as I develop them, or release more snippets from unfinished or unpolished content. Depends on the demand and interest, really. The name is potentially significant once I have the time to write some in-universe fluff and start thinking about a basic game module. Think GodsGiftToGrinds, minus the AU-specific stuff.
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Post by csj on Aug 18, 2017 20:20:36 GMT
Dev Upd8 #4
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As I warned, dev activity is down. I have a lot of irons in the fire as a student and this one is somewhat down the list in priority. However, I have done a lot more work on refining the way Classpect will work within the game, mostly on a theoretical level. Consequently, most of the documentation released on Classpect is slightly outdated. I'll be updating the pages on Tumblr in the future to reflect this.
On the plus side, I've finished a fun in-character spiel about Classpect written by the Waste of Time, which can calso be found on the Tumblr. He is a reliable source, most of the time.
As you may have noticed, the 'take' on this subject is based on a mixture of the Heroes' Journey (see; 'The Hero with a Thousand Faces' by Joseph Campbell) and Archetype-based interpretations of Jungian Psychology. The two combine very well with each other and the result is something I find easy to explain and relate to win a TTRPG context. It's not theory-heavy. As I've said before, players should be relatively free to interpret their Class and Aspect on their own.
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Post by csj on Nov 30, 2017 10:06:01 GMT
Full update will have to wait a few days, but the semester has finished, so expect some bigger info dumps shortly. Basically, since last time I've done some dice analysis for custom dice, similar to those used in Fantasy Flight's current Star Wars RPG, plotted out combat abstrata mechanics (for all known canon specibi) with rough framework to allow future implementation of custom abstrata (and alchemy) plus a bunch of smaller changes here and there.
I've also had a look at the quiz. You know. THAT quiz. I won't need to make major changes from the current classpect framework (hooray for headcanon validation!) so those will be updated fairly soon. Since classes aren't included yet, I suppose we'll have to wait a bit longer for detail and/or answers there.
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Post by spiralingheart on Jul 26, 2024 0:37:32 GMT
is this still being worked on?
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