|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 1, 2017 4:06:50 GMT
Ok. Let me see if I can answer these three points in one swoop, and elaborate on the nature of Prophets in the meantime. Superman is not like Jesus, because the focus for Superman rests on his abilities, not on his knowledge. Jesus is distinguished by the fact that he: A) Delivers prophecies about the future, that are then proven true. B) Attributes both his abilities and his knowledge to his communion with a divine, supernatural force. C) Uses his abilities to serve as evidence for the truth of both his prophecies and the will of said divine force. That still doesn't answer my question. Yes, Jesus can perform miracles. Yes Jesus also had prophetic powers. But if I understand you correctly, you're trying to make a causal link here, as if one power controls the other. But what I see is a dude who just happens to have two different 'superpowers' and erroneously claims that one validates the other. If, for whatever reason, Jesus couldn't make predictions about the future, he'd still be able to walk on water would he not? This is just going back to the point I made earlier: Every application of every power can be reasonably described as a Miracle. It's not exclusively a Seer/Mage thing, that's just them applying their powers to practical ends. Actually, I'd argue that Sollux's psychic powers come from his biology, since Troll's are well established to have psychic powers, even outside of Sburb players, and both of the Captors lost (some of) theri powers to physical injuries. Sburb may have simply assigned him the Doom Aspect because of this. Are Sollux's prophecies actually accurate though? He claims, among other things, that 'we' will all die. It's not entirely explicit who the 'we' are, but let's assume he means the A2 players. By the end of the story, Karkat, Kanaya and Terezi are still alive without resurrection. It could be that Sollux was actually referring to all timelines, rather than just the Alpha, but as we soon see, the Trolls have an extremely high occurrence of doomed timelines each with high, if not absolute mortality rates, so that prediction becomes trivial and fulfilled as soon as a the first doomed!Aradiabot turns up. Sollux also claims that he will die twice, but specifically, he says 'Especially me', as if this is unique to him. But this is not the case, as multiple other characters experience multiple deaths, such as Vriska and, if we count conscious Dreamselves, Feferi, Nepeta and Tavros. |
|
|
|
Post by optimisticduelist on Jun 1, 2017 8:07:53 GMT
Nnno? I've said several times one power doesn't control the other, but rather both are derived from the same divine source. A Jesus who walks on water but makes no predictions and preaches no Gospel is some random superhero--not Jesus as our culture understands him. And if you believe Jesus performed miracles--which some do believe he did, in real life, which should be impossible--then there's no real reason to believe his words weren't true, too. But Jesus doesn't credit his ability to perform miracles with his ability to issue prophecy. Jesus credits BOTH his miracles and his prophecy--as well as his teachings--with his communion and knowledge of God's word. Knowledge that he can then spread, and if others *accept that knowledge*, they are also capable of performing similar miraculous works. Obviously, we don't have to LITERALLY believe this--I'm discussing Jesus as a fictional figure who has had an immense cultural impact. But his impact has been felt primarily through his words and image as a Prophet, not through his magical abilities. Those are a supplement to his image. I already answered you on this one, and agreed. My point isn't that it's a Miracle--you're right, that describes pretty much any divine act a class takes--, it's that their powers are intrinsically linked to the Knowledge they hold regarding their Aspect. I guess you didn't see the part of my answer where I addressed this, so I'll copy paste it: But really, that the troll powers are actually Aspect powers is kind of obvious once you think about it. The Aspects describe and make up all of reality in the first place, so obviously any psychic powers any species manifest are going to be manipulations of Aspects on some level, simply because..Aspects make up everything there is to manipulate. e
Tex Talks' raised pretty strong arguments for Tavros and Vriska's psychic powers as aspect powers, not to mention Equius' super-strength, and Gamze explicitly references Rage when he uses his chucklevoodos. May as well link Tex Talk's Gamzee video, too, since it's the shortest of his and amazing. www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2TzBgFx3mo&t=308s&ab_channel=TexTalkswww.youtube.com/watch?v=qjZtB2i8vR0&ab_channel=TexTalkswww.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005929www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7m23gkAe4&ab_channel=TexTalksThere's the links, also. As far as the canon is concerned, yes, Sollux's prophecies are accurate. Again, Aradia literally says so: TA: actually that is kind 0f a relief, maybe y0u're right, i'm feeling better ab0ut this already.
AA: great!
AA: you should be able to relax now that youve been released from the curse of your vision twofold just like you said youd be
AA: you are now merely doomed!
Karkat, Kanaya and Terezi all experience dream deaths, so they all die at least once too--meaning Sollux is right about his fundamental prediction, even if we want to quibble about the exact number of comparative deaths he predicts. We can debate the deaths and quasideaths across paradox space forever, but really, there's a simpler way to solve this question: Whether or not Sollux's prophecies were right about everyone else (I don't care to put in the brainpower to express why I think he is atm), they were right where they concerned himself--and for a self-focused prophet, that's what counts. After all, Terezi and Rose are prophets, but they don't seem all that skilled at divining their own particular futures despite being quite good at doing so for others, so that would make sense. Ultimately, Sollux is right about he himself dying twice. And he's right about going blind, which he himself describes as a necessary step on the path of a proven prophet of doom: TA: but before ii diie, iim goiing two go bliind liike you.
TA: iit ha2 two happen liike that.
TA: iim not 2ure why, but ii thiink iit2 liike...
TA: fulfiilliing 2ome requiirement for a true prophet of doom.
TA: iin order for the vii2iion2 two be riight, that ha2 two happen, and the uniiver2e wiill make 2ure iit wiill.
TA: iit2 kiind of liike how a prophet earn2 hii2 2triipe2, by beiing bliind, liike how an angel earn2 iit2 wiing2.
So yes, Sollux's prophecies are accurate, and specifically linked to his self-identification as a prophet. |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 1, 2017 16:34:48 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is that Sollux never pulled off any real miracles. Neither did Meulin or any of the Seers. The only thing not knowledge based he did that's clearly linked to Doom is had two dreamselves, and that's either just a doom thing overall, since Mituna had it, or like a few people have said, straight up unique to them because they are Gemini based. The whole Jesus example discussion here seems to be mostly founded on something we don't even see in Sollux.
For that matter, you argue that the change and know classes are most heavily linked, but apart from Mituna, I see little evidence of the Change classes having muh to do with knowledge. Equius didn't show particylar void understanding, John didn't really seem to show an above average or unique knowledge of Breath, Feferi... An argument could maybe be made there, but I don't understand Life enough to see it, Jade had loads of a knowledge, with just about all of it being future and thus time based, and Damara could be argued to have gained a lot of knowledge into Time via Lord E glish, true, but most of what we know she learned was how to use specific magyyks to mess up the session.
So the whole Know and Change being really linked seems to exist solely to justify Mituna having the same prophetic ability as Sollux without being a know class, since the Damara link is tenuous, as we don't know what she learned.
That being said, what it looks like you're saying is that classpects, to you, are more based around role in the timeline than the person themself. Like, yes, Mituna had prophetic visions, but it was his change of Doom that he was meant to do. The visions merely helped him carry out his true classpect?
And in the same way Jesus cast miracles, but his knowledge and message were the focal point of his role, Sollux had his abilities (which you attribute to his classpect) but his knowledge were the actual role he was designed to play?
Is that what you're getting at?
|
|
|
|
Post by optimisticduelist on Jun 1, 2017 22:04:33 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is that Sollux never pulled off any real miracles. Neither did Meulin or any of the Seers. The only thing not knowledge based he did that's clearly linked to Doom is had two dreamselves, and that's either just a doom thing overall, since Mituna had it, or like a few people have said, straight up unique to them because they are Gemini based. The whole Jesus example discussion here seems to be mostly founded on something we don't even see in Sollux. For that matter, you argue that the change and know classes are most heavily linked, but apart from Mituna, I see little evidence of the Change classes having muh to do with knowledge. Equius didn't show particylar void understanding, John didn't really seem to show an above average or unique knowledge of Breath, Feferi... An argument could maybe be made there, but I don't understand Life enough to see it, Jade had loads of a knowledge, with just about all of it being future and thus time based, and Damara could be argued to have gained a lot of knowledge into Time via Lord E glish, true, but most of what we know she learned was how to use specific magyyks to mess up the session. So the whole Know and Change being really linked seems to exist solely to justify Mituna having the same prophetic ability as Sollux without being a know class, since the Damara link is tenuous, as we don't know what she learned. That being said, what it looks like you're saying is that classpects, to you, are more based around role in the timeline than the person themself. Like, yes, Mituna had prophetic visions, but it was his change of Doom that he was meant to do. The visions merely helped him carry out his true classpect? And in the same way Jesus cast miracles, but his knowledge and message were the focal point of his role, Sollux had his abilities (which you attribute to his classpect) but his knowledge were the actual role he was designed to play? Is that what you're getting at? I wouldn't say that Classpects are based on their role in the timeline as OPPOSED to being focused on the person themselves. I think the classpects are best understood as Zelda titles, I guess? They're just descriptions of the characters' patterns of thought, and tend to foreshadow the characters' future impact in the story just because they describe said character's natural inclinations. Sollux, Meulin and the Seers DO perform actual miracles. First of all, because of what we've been talking about--all the classes are Gods and perform acts which are divine and otherwise impossible. Even leaving Sollux's psiionics aside, Sollux surviving his own death as a half ghost is something wholly unique and otherwise impossible. Rose's navigating of the void should be impossible. Terezi's guiding John through reviving Vriska should be impossible. This is all established in the context of the story proper. I would say that, for both Mituna and Sollux, both the Changes/Abilities and the Knowledge they have are important in how they execute their classpect. I don't think either of them was acting particularly "wrong" whenever Mituna was motivated by prophecies, or whenever Sollux used his powers. Because the verbs are so interlinked, classes belonging to either will naturally incorporate both--they just seem to have something of a bias towards one or the other. And I guess at this point I should ask: Did you...read the essays I linked? I made a pretty big case for John's connection to Knowledge. He's the one who first gains the knowledge of the Alchemy system, his maturation into power requires him to Learn how to control his retcon abilities, he has literal magic tomes that he gains information on how to perform Changes from, whether it's pranksterism or magic tricks. Etc etc. Jade's interest in science is similar, and like John she is more focused on using her knowledge to take action and Change things directly--in her case, the focus largely being on Sburb as a game, which is part of the setting of the comic, and thus part of Space, and thus part of her domain. This also plays into the roleplay system, since Rose begins roleplaying a witch when she's focused on trying to Change her session's fate as she learns about it through myriad sources. Eridan roleplaying a wizard coincides with him Changing his Hope from one of survival to one of betrayal, as he chooses to side with Bec Noir and Hope he'll spare him for his service. Equius is demonstrably interested in knowledge, since he values the false knowledge of the Hemospectrum above all else, and is constantly trying to change people to fit it. So no, I am not mentioning this link solely because of Mituna. Not really sure how you can reach that conclusion if you've read the arguments I posted for this view. |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 1, 2017 22:33:36 GMT
The funny thing about all of this is that Sollux never pulled off any real miracles. Neither did Meulin or any of the Seers. The only thing not knowledge based he did that's clearly linked to Doom is had two dreamselves, and that's either just a doom thing overall, since Mituna had it, or like a few people have said, straight up unique to them because they are Gemini based. The whole Jesus example discussion here seems to be mostly founded on something we don't even see in Sollux. For that matter, you argue that the change and know classes are most heavily linked, but apart from Mituna, I see little evidence of the Change classes having muh to do with knowledge. Equius didn't show particylar void understanding, John didn't really seem to show an above average or unique knowledge of Breath, Feferi... An argument could maybe be made there, but I don't understand Life enough to see it, Jade had loads of a knowledge, with just about all of it being future and thus time based, and Damara could be argued to have gained a lot of knowledge into Time via Lord E glish, true, but most of what we know she learned was how to use specific magyyks to mess up the session. So the whole Know and Change being really linked seems to exist solely to justify Mituna having the same prophetic ability as Sollux without being a know class, since the Damara link is tenuous, as we don't know what she learned. That being said, what it looks like you're saying is that classpects, to you, are more based around role in the timeline than the person themself. Like, yes, Mituna had prophetic visions, but it was his change of Doom that he was meant to do. The visions merely helped him carry out his true classpect? And in the same way Jesus cast miracles, but his knowledge and message were the focal point of his role, Sollux had his abilities (which you attribute to his classpect) but his knowledge were the actual role he was designed to play? Is that what you're getting at? I wouldn't say that Classpects are based on their role in the timeline as OPPOSED to being focused on the person themselves. I think the classpects are best understood as Zelda titles, I guess? They're just descriptions of the characters' patterns of thought, and tend to foreshadow the characters' future impact in the story just because they describe said character's natural inclinations. Sollux, Meulin and the Seers DO perform actual miracles. First of all, because of what we've been talking about--all the classes are Gods and perform acts which are divine and otherwise impossible. Even leaving Sollux's psiionics aside, Sollux surviving his own death as a half ghost is something wholly unique and otherwise impossible. Rose's navigating of the void should be impossible. Terezi's guiding John through reviving Vriska should be impossible. This is all established in the context of the story proper. I would say that, for both Mituna and Sollux, both the Changes/Abilities and the Knowledge they have are important in how they execute their classpect. I don't think either of them was acting particularly "wrong" whenever Mituna was motivated by prophecies, or whenever Sollux used his powers. Because the verbs are so interlinked, classes belonging to either will naturally incorporate both--they just seem to have something of a bias towards one or the other. And I guess at this point I should ask: Did you...read the essays I linked? I made a pretty big case for John's connection to Knowledge. He's the one who first gains the knowledge of the Alchemy system, his maturation into power requires him to Learn how to control his retcon abilities, he has literal magic tomes that he gains information on how to perform Changes from, whether it's pranksterism or magic tricks. Etc etc. Jade's interest in science is similar, and like John she is more focused on using her knowledge to take action and Change things directly--in her case, the focus largely being on Sburb as a game, which is part of the setting of the comic, and thus part of Space, and thus part of her domain. This also plays into the roleplay system, since Rose begins roleplaying a witch when she's focused on trying to Change her session's fate as she learns about it through myriad sources. Eridan roleplaying a wizard coincides with him Changing his Hope from one of survival to one of betrayal, as he chooses to side with Bec Noir and Hope he'll spare him for his service. Equius is demonstrably interested in knowledge, since he values the false knowledge of the Hemospectrum above all else, and is constantly trying to change people to fit it. So no, I am not mentioning this link solely because of Mituna. Not really sure how you can reach that conclusion if you've read the arguments I posted for this view. I don't agree with a lot of the evidence you've provided, but it's moot, so it's not worth arguing. If it's not based on their role in the story, then I think most of us keep missing why the Know class is capable of change, and the change class is capable of doing the stuff the know classes can. I said the bit about being opposed, because the only way I could see it happening is if their role in the story is what it's based on. In which case, Sollux's knowledge was much more relevant to his role in the plot than his miracles. If you're not saying it's that, and that it is character driven, I keep missing how Knowledge is randomly more important to his classpect than the other stuff. I mean, if you're including psiionics, than I'd say his helping to change the doom of the people on the meteor is just as important as his creation of sgrub. So like... I don't get what makes one more significant than the other apart from role in the story, apart from saying "It's just kinda their thing." |
|
|
|
Post by heirloomairloom on Jun 1, 2017 23:15:19 GMT
Did you...read the essays I linked? I made a pretty big case for John's connection to Knowledge. He's the one who first gains the knowledge of the Alchemy system, his maturation into power requires him to Learn how to control his retcon abilities, he has literal magic tomes that he gains information on how to perform Changes from, whether it's pranksterism or magic tricks. Etc etc. Jade's interest in science is similar, and like John she is more focused on using her knowledge to take action and Change things directly--in her case, the focus largely being on Sburb as a game, which is part of the setting of the comic, and thus part of Space, and thus part of her domain. And Dave suffers through nervousness about alternate timeline Daves until Davesprite becomes a sprite squared and gains knowledge of ultimate selves. And Aranea is obsessed with gathering and sharing knowledge with others. And Gamzee is unhinged by knowing the truth about his religion. Calliope spends her time ruminating her knowledge of the kids' story, Aradia keeps the trolls on the path to beating the Black King through her pre-emptive knowledge of how the alpha timeline where they win will go, Kanaya has unique knowledge of her session from Prospit dreams and Rose's walkthrough, etc, etc, etc. Heirs and Witches are often associated with knowing things because all players are often associated with knowing things, due to knowledge being a very common part of the human experience. But only Mages and Seers have any special ties to Knowing in the mythology of Sburb's system. |
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 3, 2017 0:41:36 GMT
Nnno? I've said several times one power doesn't control the other, but rather both are derived from the same divine source. A Jesus who walks on water but makes no predictions and preaches no Gospel is some random superhero--not Jesus as our culture understands him. And if you believe Jesus performed miracles--which some do believe he did, in real life, which should be impossible--then there's no real reason to believe his words weren't true, too. But Jesus doesn't credit his ability to perform miracles with his ability to issue prophecy. Jesus credits BOTH his miracles and his prophecy--as well as his teachings--with his communion and knowledge of God's word. Knowledge that he can then spread, and if others *accept that knowledge*, they are also capable of performing similar miraculous works. Obviously, we don't have to LITERALLY believe this--I'm discussing Jesus as a fictional figure who has had an immense cultural impact. But his impact has been felt primarily through his words and image as a Prophet, not through his magical abilities. Those are a supplement to his image. So then I'm not sure why you put so much emphasis on miracles for the Mages. Jesus only has both prophetic and miraculous powers because God decided to grant him such an expansive suite of power. Since neither Sollux or Meulin have the same luxury/curse of being God's personal avatar/messenger/whatever, I don't see why we should hold them to the same standard. Having two such unrelated powers is, in my opinion, far too broad and useful role for a standard Class. Also, demonstrating physical miracles is not actually proof of someone also being wise/prophetic. Not even in a biblical context where non-godly magic/witchcraft is a thing. You seem to be forgetting a major component of the Active/Passive scale: "active classes exploit their aspect to benefit themselves, while passive classes allow their aspect to benefit others." Keyword: Exploit. In what way did Sollux actually exploit the knowledge of his Doom? Or even in a broader sense, use it at all? The answer is, he didn't. He just continued on with life as usual, and then the prophecy was fulfilled and he continued on with (after)life as usual. Had he not had the prophecy, I don't see how anything would've been any different. So Sollux failed at both Benefiting Himself with his Knowledge and he failed at being Exploitative with his Knowledge. Since we both agree that the mage is Active, and I see the mages at utterly failing at being Active Knowers, I must conclude that their skill set lies elsewhere. Sollux, Meulin and the Seers DO perform actual miracles. First of all, because of what we've been talking about--all the classes are Gods and perform acts which are divine and otherwise impossible. Even leaving Sollux's psiionics aside, Sollux surviving his own death as a half ghost is something wholly unique and otherwise impossible. Rose's navigating of the void should be impossible. Terezi's guiding John through reviving Vriska should be impossible. This is all established in the context of the story proper. While I'll grant you that Sollux's faux-death is unprecedented, unrepeated and currently unexplained and that Meulin is directly referred to as Miraculous, Rose and Terezi's feats are far from impossible. muse!Calliope would go on to talk to Jade about navigating the void, and she expressed it simply as a matter of destination i.e. if you have a clear enough idea of your destination, you'll get there. So how did Rose get their Destination? Simple, she just saw that there would be be a brief window in which the light from the Green Sun would shine upon the B2 Session so they could ride that light and get in through that same window. It was really just a simple application of the most literal of Seer of Light powers. nothing impossible or miraculous about it. Same for Terezi: there's nothing impossible about what happened. At least, nothing to do with Terezi herself. It could be argued that John's new power is miraculous(I personally wouldn't) but that's not the person we're talking about so we'll put him aside regardless. Terezi's contribution to the whole scheme was to just figure out that Vriska could make a huge difference to the situation. Which isn't exactly a mystic revelation to anyone who knows anything about Vriska, let alone someone who is her closest friend. |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 12, 2017 21:52:25 GMT
Our inability to underatand your reasoning aside, since it doesn't neccessarily mean you're wrong, here's a piece of evidence that hard contradicts your active page passive knight theory, that you definitely will need to address moving forward.
This is an excerpt from Andrew Hussie's "Prospite or Derse" response.
"...But if we’re saying active/passive literally translates to offensive/defensive for the sake of this topic, then Derse would be very active and Prospit would be very passive. Derse’s job is to attack. Prospit’s is to defend. This seems to carry over to the roles of the dreamers too. Dave and Rose turned out to be very active players. Dave time traveling all over the place, making a fortune on stocks and such. Rose went on her crazy solo mission to break the game and fight Jack. Jade and John had more passive roles through most of that, players who were “acted upon” by other players and circumstances. John was always being led around by trolls this way and that, drifting around wherever the wind took him. Jade was especially passive for a lot of the story, spending a lot of time falling asleep (or being put to sleep) at key moments. It wasn’t until she reached god tier as a Witch (said to be a highly active class) that she became extremely active, making lots of stuff happen, rounding up planets and all that. Rose may have been a similar case, being excessively active as a Derse dreamer, but then flipping over to a passive role upon reaching god tier as a passive class."
This paragraph states that "Dave and Rose turned out to be very active players.", and goes on to say that while Rose was.an active dreamer, upon God Tiering, she toom a passive role as a passive class.
While this in and of itself is not proof per-se, the fact that Dave is not mentioned as doing something similar tends to, to most people, imply that Dave was active as a Derse dreamer, and when he God Tiered remained so. This implies he either was passive, and never properly applied his role (which doesn't fit with your theory), or he correctly acted as an active class, and properly remained so.
This, if I recall, is the primary evidence for why people originally took Knights to be active, and something you'll need to handle if you want your theory to be correct.
|
|
|
|
Post by legendary on Jun 12, 2017 23:27:59 GMT
To play devil's advocate, after Dave ascends he decides that he should never use time travel and only uses it once more in the course of the story, to save Dirk's corpse and Terezi's life. Knights for most passive class confirmed.
|
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 15, 2017 13:30:20 GMT
This isn't really relevant to Optimistic Duelist's posts, but can someone lay out for me why they think that Mages are active? Apart from the fact that they are usually the last remaining class, and have to be active because all that's left is an active class, if you take them as a stand alone class, how are they active?
I'm looking at them without specifically looking for evidence of activity, and I'm finding a lot of actions both for the same of other people (Which, in the past has been the reason people have told me Sylphs were considered passive), and being acted upon (Which people have told me in the past is why Pages are usually considered passive).
|
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Jun 15, 2017 16:31:56 GMT
I personally wouldn't have had much of an opinion on it not too long ago, but I find OD's reasoning fairly compelling.
While Sollux isn't the take-charge type and frequently enough does things for other people, he does have a very get-shit-done mentality when he is set upon any given task. He isn't motivated to act just for the sake of helping other people, but to get them off his back. This puts him in common with other active players, like Vriska, and apart from passive players, such as John.
Shades of this are evident in Meulin, the other mage, as well. She doesn't appear to understand other people all that well, but is more than happy to meddle in their affairs, engineering whatever result she wants. She brags about being able to make pretty much any couple happen, appeasing her own whims rather than those around her.
Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but hopefully that helps explain it?
|
|
|
|
Post by Wessolf27 on Jun 15, 2017 16:42:57 GMT
Well, other than that, Mages might not be the sort to actually want to do any kind of task being directed or ordered towards them. I mean, if you consider Sollux's own actions in his introduction, he tends to ignore many of the commands given to him. Like chucking a bunch of throwing stars rather than adding them to his Strife Specibi. They're the sort to just seem to prefer doing their own thing without anyone's guidance or supervision, kinda the direct opposite of someone like John, now that I think about it (considering he's the one most open to suggestions by players or anyone around him.)
|
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 16, 2017 5:31:11 GMT
It's not a matter of how they act, it's more of a matter of a lot of things they do seeming to be others acting upon them, along with the instances where a mage acted for the benefit of others.
How Sollux treats when people tell him to do stuff aside, these are the things he did that seem passive to me.
He made Sgrub: This is kind of ambiguous, so I'm not entirely up to argue this one specifically. I've heard arguments that, for example, he did it to stop the voices of the imminently deceased, but that seems off, given that he isn't even sure it'll have that effect when he talks to Aradia.
He killed his lusus. This could easily be seen as a doom related thing, and it was pretty passive, since he only did it after losing control by eating the mind honey. It could also be argued that the activation of the Mobius Double Reacharound Virus was passively his fault as well, since it was someone else acting upon something he did (despite the original virus being sent by him)
Dying to save Feferi: While he did actively do this, it was definitely for someone else, and it was definitely sacrifice. He told Karkat that his past self was in the process of getting him in, but when the vast glub went off, he decided to go save Feferi instead.
Getting blinded and Ko’d: Specifically the blinding part. With Mituna’s loss of mental function, loss seems to be linked to Doom, and Sollux’s blindness was Eridan’s fault, not through his own actions.
Sacrificing himself to save the meteor: This was also active, and definitely for the sake of others. He himself had already lost the voices in his head, and had told Terezi he was ok with a lot of things now, so there’s no real exploitation to be gained here.
You could even argue that his getting his ghost half ripped out of himself was his doom being acted upon, since he includes that when he tries to explain his doom story to John.
Looking at Meulin, it’s said that while she was a miracle matchmaker, her own love life was riddled with heartbreak, which seems to imply it was he heart that was being broken, which sound like she was being acted upon. Her affection for Kurloz also lead to her loss of hearing, which also seems to fall under being acted upon. Not only that, but she was letting herself be mind controlled through her continued friendship with Kurloz, which is pretty passive, as well as her friendship swaying her in support of the mirthful messiah cult.
And as far as the Disciple goes… Just about her whole life was based on the Sufferer. She went with him in all of his travels, and then after she died, she continued to let his life and teaching direct where her life went.
A lot of this seems to be passive, regardless of how they generally tend to act with respect to others telling them what to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 16, 2017 6:15:21 GMT
Here's the thing I note about Sollux: He's very good at turning negatives into positives, finding the silver lining in things. Usually it seems to be unknowing/accidental on his part.
Killed horrifically in the Vast Glub: he got Feferi as a girlfriend out of it
Get's blinded by Eridan: no longer has the screams of the dying in his head.
Karkat accidentally knocks all his teeth out: No longer has his annoying lisp
Finds himself awkwardly straddling the boundary between life and death: gets the benefits from both states
Kills himself saving his friends: uses it as a reason/excuse to essentially retire.
Gets soul fused with Eridan: The mixed personality ends up being so masochistic as to enjoy it's horrible existence.
The prior event leaving his ghost fully blind again: Gets hot women to hold his hand everywhere he goes.
The main question is: Is this an effect of being a Hero of Doom, of being a Mage, of being Active, or a mix of all 3? I personally think that the positive-into-negative thing is Doom related, while the fact that it happens to him specifically is his role as a Mage or at the very least, an Active player; basically serving Doom unto himself like a self-buff. Contrast with Mituna who's mysterious off-screen event can also be described as a positive/negative trade-off but in a much more Passive fashion as he burdens all the negative while everyone gets the positive.
|
|
|
|
Post by heirloomairloom on Jun 16, 2017 10:57:52 GMT
I'd submit it's related to neither but rather simply the fact that protagonists in stories experience a mixture of good and bad events in their lives. Compare him to Vriska:
She gets saddled with a horrible lusus who requires her to feed children to it, but she gains combat experience and a cutthroat attitude that help her through the game and the dream bubbles.
She lashes out at and blinds her best friend, but Terezi likes being blind, eventually forgives her, and they even wind up as moirails.
She gets beaten to death, but that just makes her go God Tier and become the strongest member of her team plus heals her missing arm and eye.
She gets murdered, but her death protects the lives of the friends she would have accidentally gotten killed.
She dies right after asking her crush out, but he has a ghost in the afterlife she can date instead.
She gets fused into a sprite^2 who she hates and explodes, but that gives her an opportunity to reconcile with Tavros and become relevant in the afterlife.
She loses her means of going through with the ghost army plan, but the lull in action lets her get a girlfriend and she becomes happy for the first time.
You can do the same thing with most other main characters if you think about it long enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jun 16, 2017 18:04:45 GMT
Here's the thing I note about Sollux: He's very good at turning negatives into positives, finding the silver lining in things. Usually it seems to be unknowing/accidental on his part. Killed horrifically in the Vast Glub: he got Feferi as a girlfriend out of it Get's blinded by Eridan: no longer has the screams of the dying in his head. Karkat accidentally knocks all his teeth out: No longer has his annoying lisp Finds himself awkwardly straddling the boundary between life and death: gets the benefits from both states Kills himself saving his friends: uses it as a reason/excuse to essentially retire. Gets soul fused with Eridan: The mixed personality ends up being so masochistic as to enjoy it's horrible existence. The prior event leaving his ghost fully blind again: Gets hot women to hold his hand everywhere he goes. The main question is: Is this an effect of being a Hero of Doom, of being a Mage, of being Active, or a mix of all 3? I personally think that the positive-into-negative thing is Doom related, while the fact that it happens to him specifically is his role as a Mage or at the very least, an Active player; basically serving Doom unto himself like a self-buff. Contrast with Mituna who's mysterious off-screen event can also be described as a positive/negative trade-off but in a much more Passive fashion as he burdens all the negative while everyone gets the positive. Hm. So the difficulty is that, while the doom based stuff that happens to him is split between active and passive action (Although still leaning more passive) At some point down the line, for just about every one of them he both exploits said loss for himself, and also allows it to benefit others. I'd submit it's related to neither but rather simply the fact that protagonists in stories experience a mixture of good and bad events in their lives. Several of these aren't quite the same. Not quite the same, as this benefitted no one but herself and the god tiering was an active choice, since Tavros could have just revived her. This is neither her exploiting something, nor even Thief of Light related. This benefits no one but her, since the ghost boyfriend didn't even know her. I suppose this could technically be light based, we know what a Thief does, so we know this isn't directly related to her classpect. Not related to her classpect. I'm particularly talking about instances where Sollux has had Doom related things inflicted on him, and the intended result usually being for someone else's benefit, Meulin having her friendship with Kurloz being taken advantage for, to his benefit, and The Disciple's love for The Signless being mostly to his benefit, and later, to the benefit of... just about everyone, since her putting down his message was vital to the whole story. |
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Jun 16, 2017 23:09:24 GMT
I'd submit it's related to neither but rather simply the fact that protagonists in stories experience a mixture of good and bad events in their lives. Compare him to Vriska: She gets saddled with a horrible lusus who requires her to feed children to it, but she gains combat experience and a cutthroat attitude that help her through the game and the dream bubbles. She lashes out at and blinds her best friend, but Terezi likes being blind, eventually forgives her, and they even wind up as moirails. She gets beaten to death, but that just makes her go God Tier and become the strongest member of her team plus heals her missing arm and eye. She gets murdered, but her death protects the lives of the friends she would have accidentally gotten killed. She dies right after asking her crush out, but he has a ghost in the afterlife she can date instead. She gets fused into a sprite^2 who she hates and explodes, but that gives her an opportunity to reconcile with Tavros and become relevant in the afterlife. She loses her means of going through with the ghost army plan, but the lull in action lets her get a girlfriend and she becomes happy for the first time. You can do the same thing with most other main characters if you think about it long enough. The key differences is that Sollux's negatives stayed with him, while getting a positive to go along side it. Most of what you've listed here is a temporary setback that turns into a positive with little to no lasting negatives. With Sollux, it's almost like an economic trade-off of assets: After all, many people associate 'sacrifice' with the Doom Aspect, and isn't a sacrifice just a specific type of trade-off; losing one thing to gain another? And Heroes of Doom, by definition, would be all about manipulating the concept/act of trading to get the results they desire, just as Heroes of Light manipulate probability. |
|
|
|
Post by csj on Jul 11, 2017 11:07:39 GMT
Okay, so here's something I wanted to broach over here for a variety of reasons. But mostly for this. I've been looking outside Homestuck itself and looking at possible influences upon classpect and the most recent thing I've found is a rather interesting correlation with certain aspects of Jungian psychology and related stuff. No, I'm not talking about MBTI. Rather, there's another Jung-inspired pseudoscientific typology metric. One with precisely 12 flavours, heavily influenced by the 'monomyth' (I'm pretty certain Andrew has read ' Hero with a Thousand Faces'). A number of Pearson-Marr Archetypes feel rather close to the vague descriptions given for each Class; here's a list of them - I'll try and keep this concise, though it'll obviously need discussion at greater length. The Innocent - Optimism and Faith The Orphan - Independence and Self-Reliance The Warrior - Conflict and Dedication The Caregiver - Protection and Self-Sacrifice The Seeker - Curiosity and Ambition The Lover - Unity and Passion The Destroyer - Evolution and Determination The Creator - Expression and Dreams The Ruler - Control and Harmony The Magician - Manipulation and Enlightenment The Sage - Truth and Justice The Jester - Pleasure and Chaos There's some clear alignment in certain cases. Jester and Bard, Caregiver and Sylph, Destroyer and Prince, Warrior and Knight. There are a couple of other links which are less clear, but are also make it seem like it could be more than a coincidence. I can't decide 100% due to both overlap and limited recall of canon (I have some clinical issues with memory). Innocent and Page: Naivety seems to be the bread and butter of Pages. Their ability to mould and change greatly also mirrors how the Innocent often shifts towards other archetypes over time. Ruler and Heir: Heirs seem naturally-aligned with order and to a lesser extent, leadership. However, we haven't really seen much of the 'shadow' element of this Archetype outside of Equius' desire for control and dominion over 'lowbloods'. Lover and Rogue: The romantic escapades of Nepeta, Roxy and Rufioh - both good and ill (mostly ill) seem most connected to this Archetype. 'Taking' and 'giving' are obvious components of romantic relationships, though perhaps less directly tied to The Lover as a whole. Orphan and Thief: Both are strongly associated with a focus on the Self - the intersection is easier to see when considering the backstory of Vriska and relationship with her lusus, but not definitive. The tendency towards pariah status is fitting for the Thieves seen thus far. Destroyer and Prince: The connection between the Prince class and destruction is canonical, but has seen a lot less of the other element of it; creation through destruction. This may be easier to see from Eridan's "Wwhite magic" (assuming connection to the Angels, which he destroyed) or some of Dirk's powers and actions. Dirk and Bro both seem obsessed with re-creation and 'growth' at all costs, to the benefit and detriment of both friends and themselves. This leaves 4 Archetypes and Classes with more subjective labelling. Witch and Creator OR Magician: Both have relevance to how a Witch operates. The latter is a more literal perspective, focusing more on the intuitive, darker elements of the Class - perhaps more relevant for Damara. However, the Creator role is more along the lines of Jade's experiences and actions. Seer OR Mage and Sage OR Seeker: Hard to decide between the two. Both are very relevant and it more or less depends on what parts of the classes you emphasise. At a pinch, I'd place Seer as the Sage, given its Passive alignment leaving the Mage as Seeker. This leaves the Maid. She *could* be swished into the Creator by emphasising the 'mending' focus and the desire for authenticity, but it's a bit of a push. There's probably a different way to rearrange things so it could be paired with Caregiver, or such. Anyway, hopefully this is interesting and I'm keen to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this perspective. EDIT: Having reread some of the theories of a certain bladekindeyewear, I'm now a lot more confident penning in the Maid as Creator, via a more literal, punny reading of the Class; the ability to 'make'. |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jul 12, 2017 17:03:10 GMT
Okay, so here's something I wanted to broach over here for a variety of reasons. But mostly for this. I've been looking outside Homestuck itself and looking at possible influences upon classpect and the most recent thing I've found is a rather interesting correlation with certain aspects of Jungian psychology and related stuff. No, I'm not talking about MBTI. Rather, there's another Jung-inspired pseudoscientific typology metric. One with precisely 12 flavours, heavily influenced by the 'monomyth' (I'm pretty certain Andrew has read ' Hero with a Thousand Faces'). A number of Pearson-Marr Archetypes feel rather close to the vague descriptions given for each Class; here's a list of them - I'll try and keep this concise, though it'll obviously need discussion at greater length. The Innocent - Optimism and Faith The Orphan - Independence and Self-Reliance The Warrior - Conflict and Dedication The Caregiver - Protection and Self-Sacrifice The Seeker - Curiosity and Ambition The Lover - Unity and Passion The Destroyer - Evolution and Determination The Creator - Expression and Dreams The Ruler - Control and Harmony The Magician - Manipulation and Enlightenment The Sage - Truth and Justice The Jester - Pleasure and Chaos There's some clear alignment in certain cases. Jester and Bard, Caregiver and Sylph, Destroyer and Prince, Warrior and Knight. There are a couple of other links which are less clear, but are also make it seem like it could be more than a coincidence. I can't decide 100% due to both overlap and limited recall of canon (I have some clinical issues with memory). Innocent and Page: Naivety seems to be the bread and butter of Pages. Their ability to mould and change greatly also mirrors how the Innocent often shifts towards other archetypes over time. Ruler and Heir: Heirs seem naturally-aligned with order and to a lesser extent, leadership. However, we haven't really seen much of the 'shadow' element of this Archetype outside of Equius' desire for control and dominion over 'lowbloods'. Lover and Rogue: The romantic escapades of Nepeta, Roxy and Rufioh - both good and ill (mostly ill) seem most connected to this Archetype. 'Taking' and 'giving' are obvious components of romantic relationships, though perhaps less directly tied to The Lover as a whole. Orphan and Thief: Both are strongly associated with a focus on the Self - the intersection is easier to see when considering the backstory of Vriska and relationship with her lusus, but not definitive. The tendency towards pariah status is fitting for the Thieves seen thus far. Destroyer and Prince: The connection between the Prince class and destruction is canonical, but has seen a lot less of the other element of it; creation through destruction. This may be easier to see from Eridan's "Wwhite magic" (assuming connection to the Angels, which he destroyed) or some of Dirk's powers and actions. Dirk and Bro both seem obsessed with re-creation and 'growth' at all costs, to the benefit and detriment of both friends and themselves. This leaves 4 Archetypes and Classes with more subjective labelling. Witch and Creator OR Magician: Both have relevance to how a Witch operates. The latter is a more literal perspective, focusing more on the intuitive, darker elements of the Class - perhaps more relevant for Damara. However, the Creator role is more along the lines of Jade's experiences and actions. Seer OR Mage and Sage OR Seeker: Hard to decide between the two. Both are very relevant and it more or less depends on what parts of the classes you emphasise. At a pinch, I'd place Seer as the Sage, given its Passive alignment leaving the Mage as Seeker. This leaves the Maid. She *could* be swished into the Creator by emphasising the 'mending' focus and the desire for authenticity, but it's a bit of a push. There's probably a different way to rearrange things so it could be paired with Caregiver, or such. Anyway, hopefully this is interesting and I'm keen to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this perspective. EDIT: Having reread some of the theories of a certain bladekindeyewear, I'm now a lot more confident penning in the Maid as Creator, via a more literal, punny reading of the Class; the ability to 'make'. This sounds quite interesting, and like it fits a lot from what you've posted here. I'm going to look into it when I'm free. |
|
|
|
Post by csj on Jul 15, 2017 16:48:15 GMT
This sounds quite interesting, and like it fits a lot from what you've posted here. I'm going to look into it when I'm free. Cool beans! Personally, while I definitely think it's useful, I am under no illusions of its imperfection. That said, I am looking to adapt PMAI (where appropriate) for self analysis of classpect or classpect assignment, as well as a 'bridge' for further Jungian-esque breakdowns. Its character-based perspective on one's personal story is the main attraction, especially when shoehorning it into an RPG. |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Jul 17, 2017 3:22:03 GMT
I disagree with a few of your decisions on which pairs match up. First off, I'm not sure that the Prince is "the destroyer". It's called the outlaw in several of the things I've read, and, while the prince does destroy, the tendency to go against expectations and to shake up the rules seem closer to the Thief, rather than Princes. One of the primary things about Meenah was that she hated the current peace and quiet of beforus, and wanted to get away from it, and Vriska's violent revenge against Aradia and Terezi was one of the driving parts of act 5. I feel like the Prince fits closer to the ruler than the Heir, because, while John was the only Heir to really successfully do anything rule related (and even he was fairly submissive for a lot of the story), all the Princes seemed to desire or use control or power in some way. Dirk wanted control over all his splinters, and manipulated the a lot of the situation between himself and Jake, Eridan wanted the control over the power to destroy the land dwellers, and sought power through the white science want, and Kurloz had no qualms about straight up mind controlling Meulin.
Unfortunately, though, this leaves the Heir wide open, and the heir doesn't necessarily fit in with the orphan all that well, since while John did want everyone to be equal, Equius placed heavy emphases on the hemospectrum, so I'm stuck there.
|
|
|
|
Post by legendary on Jul 18, 2017 1:29:16 GMT
Equius may have placed that emphasis, but the story clearly sets himself as wrong for having done so - obeying the hemospectrum instead of snapping the bowstring that strangled him with a flex of a neck muscle meant that Nepeta died. Plus, he gets off on the reversal of the power structure. I think a person less lazy than me could make a convincing argument for why Orphan fits.
|
|
|
|
Post by csj on Jul 18, 2017 13:05:57 GMT
I agree that the link between Ruler and Heir was tentative, but there's definitely more to that connection than implied. Just because someone was bad at fulfilling their role doesn't necessarily make it less appropriate and the way Pearson-Marr references Jungian psychology makes the dissonance easier to understand. There are 'Shadow' versions of each Archetype; those familiar with Persona might have an idea of how that works, but Equius' behaviour is in-line with the 'Shadow' of 'Ruler' - emphasis on rigid hierarchy and control (for those below) and endorsement of despotism from above (ie; Gamzee's rampage). His desire for order seems to be crulled by his idea of how to maintain said order in situations when it was pretty clear that blood was far less important in Sgrub than it my have been prior. By letting his 'Shadow' dominate otherwise positive intentions, Equius was unable to fulfil his role. There may be space to also consider Mituna's attempts to lead team-mates away from Doom prior to his mental trauma, but like a lot of pre-scratch trolls, there's not that much to go on. I will concede it as being a weaker link. That said, I really wouldn't combine it with Thief; that seems based more on Vriska alone than an overarching Thief thing and while she was good at plans and strategy she really, really wasn't I'd pick as an actual leader. If you wanted an alternative for Thief, I did briefly consider 'The Magician', but I still see Orphan as the one with the most thematic affinity, especially given Meenah's attitude and behaviour. Both Vriska and Meenah end up directing others not so much because they are natural leaders, but because they simply don't trust anyone else to fulfil that role for them - and both seem happy to use others (ie; John) to handle social leadership... when they've gained that trust, or possibly just to keep them preoccupied while doing their own thing (Karkat). As ashercrane alludes, Prince was the other Class I saw with affinity with 'Ruler' and if reviewing that Archetype, that's where I'd look first. Comparing Destroyer and Knight might make that easier if it's an issue. For those wanting to avoid trawling through the wikipedia article, this also has a general rundown of each archetype: www.uiltexas.org/files/capitalconference/Twelve_Character_Archetypes.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by ashercrane on Nov 28, 2017 1:00:01 GMT
So, thoughts on the hiveswap zodiac quiz? Specifically the aspect part?
|
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Nov 28, 2017 3:06:55 GMT
So, thoughts on the hiveswap zodiac quiz? Specifically the aspect part? Well, my very first thought is that, like all other online quizzes on anything, probably isn't that accurate and shouldn't be taken too seriously. My second thought is that this image here, used in the test, pretty much confirms what all the Aspect pairings are. Not that there was ever much debate, but this is just one more piece of really solid evidence. I'll post my third+ thoughts once I've actually finished the quiz. EDIT: Quiz Done I got Pipia, (Fuchsia, Derse, Light) Just picked Fuchsia cos' it's my own zodiac, I don't agree with the personality that much. Derse I am fully happy with and expected. Prior to the quiz, I wouldn't have considered myself a Light player, but the description here actually makes no mention of Luck or Fortune, which were the bits that turned me off the Aspect. Without those parts, the description of Light sounds alright to me. So the quiz isn't totally wrong I guess. Also, I see that the Aspect page actually explicitly confirms the paring. So then, One mystery down. Now to obsessively pore over every detail on that page to see if any revelations come to light. |
|
