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Post by ashercrane on Nov 28, 2017 5:31:53 GMT
I got the same exact sign, interestingly enough. I expected light, but derse, not so much. I'm a little iffy on this test, though, as it seems to discount several things that the comic seemed to imply were related to those aspects, like, as you said, luck and fortune with light.
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Post by Gab on Nov 28, 2017 5:41:33 GMT
I got Virpio, Prospit and Light. Virgo is my sign and I've always agreed with it. I've never been very certain of my Lunar Sway (new terminology ftw) but Prospit sounds pretty right to me from the description. Light sounds interesting and I think I know why the quiz chose it, but I don't know if I agree with it. I'm going to be doing some more reading and come to my own conclusions (and yet that's a pretty Light-based action......)
I think it's very interesting and exciting to get so much writing from an OFFICIAL source. I wonder how that will mold the conversations here, now that they are hopefully reignited? But for now I'm suffering from a bit of OMG-overload and need to rest.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 28, 2017 5:43:55 GMT
I got the same exact sign, interestingly enough. I expected light, but derse, not so much. I'm a little iffy on this test, though, as it seems to discount several things that the comic seemed to imply were related to those aspects, like, as you said, luck and fortune with light. Yeah, messing with the options, the test seems incredibly simple. During the Aspect part, each pair of the twelve questions correspond to an Aspect pair: Q1-2 Breath/Blood Q3-4 Light/Void Q5-6 Time/Space Q7-8 Heart/Mind Q9-10 Hope/Rage Q11-12 Life/Doom Answering with A or B of the options weights you towards the first of each pair and D, E wights you the other way. The interesting thing is that the earlier Aspects take precedence over the later ones if you're numerically matched. So if you're answers say you're slightly Light-y and slightly Life-y, it'll give you Light everytime. Combine that with the fact that the Light/Void questions are heavily skewed in favour of Light(Q3 is basically 'Do you like being ignorant') I suspect that a lot of people are going to be getting Light. Another oddity, is that, with the above rules about precedence, Breath would seem to be the default, most common answer, but if you put C for everything, it gives you Time instead. Also, I think Derse takes precedence over Prospit if you're answers average out to C too, so Derse will also be over-represented. EDIT: I'm just going to put a link to Niklink's reddit post about it. He accurately sums up my feelings for this thing pretty well.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Nov 28, 2017 22:41:09 GMT
I for one feel vindicated by the test. Now when people say that classpects are based on personality, I can point them directly to the canon Aspect personality descriptions, note how many of the characters oppose their Aspect's description or clearly fit in another better, and prove that personality is only one factor among many.
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Pandora
Juvesquirt
IT YO GURL DORA
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Post by Pandora on Nov 28, 2017 23:00:00 GMT
I for one feel vindicated by the test. Now when people say that classpects are based on personality, I can point them directly to the canon Aspect personality descriptions, note how many of the characters oppose their Aspect's description or clearly fit in another better, and prove that personality is only one factor among many. Okay, but here's the problem. You're using aspect alone to try to disprove that classpects (ie, classes + aspects) are based on personality. Which is a major leap in logic that goes absolutely nowhere. In fact, it would be much more accurate to use *classes* to prove whether or not classpects are personality based. Aspects are the subject matter, and classes are the verb. This is not only literal, but also goes for personalities. Take, for instance Karkat, Dave (and Latula). While they are all entirely different aspects, they share some personality traits. For one thing, they all have the common theme of overcompensating for insecurity - Dave and Latula with their 'cool kid' acts, Karkat with his boasting and shouting. And while my memory of Latula is fuzzy, Dave and Karkat also share a fear of their aspect - Dave, with his fear of death (which is one of Time's underlying themes), Karkat, with his fear of his blood color being discovered. Throughout all the classes, there are common themes that express themselves in personalities. Sometimes they're major things - Jake and Tavros, for instance, being insecure, rather pathetic, over-eager. Sometimes they're minor things - ie Dave / Karkat's fear of their aspects. Aspects, however, have a much weaker link. Because the aspect isn't the act, the aspect is the thing being acted on. You're not only failing to look at the classpect as a whole, but looking at the lessly significant (personality wise) half. Jake and Eridan, for instance, are both Hope players. However, Eridan is a Prince, a class which tends to actively oppose its aspect, and Jake is a Page, a player who, while in admiration of their aspect, tends to be unable to use it.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 28, 2017 23:08:55 GMT
I for one feel vindicated by the test. Now when people say that classpects are based on personality, I can point them directly to the canon Aspect personality descriptions, note how many of the characters oppose their Aspect's description or clearly fit in another better, and prove that personality is only one factor among many. I wouldn't call it absolute proof, as one other hypothesis remains: The test and it's descriptions were poorly written and constructed. The fact that many of the descriptions completely lack facets that we know to be associated with the Aspects is strong evidence for this possibility. That's not to say I completely disagree with you, I don't think personality is necessarily the be-all-and-end-all of one's title. But I do think it's a fairly important factor, so the fact that not just some, but most of the characters don't match these descriptions is a warning sign to me. Question is, are the descriptions off because they weren't handled by Hussie but rather by someone who didn't have a full picture or direction on the matter, or is it a result of trying too hard to broaden and vagueify them for this Barnum-y horoscope thing this test is going for.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Nov 28, 2017 23:44:52 GMT
Okay, but here's the problem. You're using aspect alone to try to disprove that classpects (ie, classes + aspects) are based on personality. Which is a major leap in logic that goes absolutely nowhere. In fact, it would be much more accurate to use *classes* to prove whether or not classpects are personality based. Aspects are the subject matter, and classes are the verb. This is not only literal, but also goes for personalities. Take, for instance Karkat, Dave (and Latula). While they are all entirely different aspects, they share some personality traits. For one thing, they all have the common theme of overcompensating for insecurity - Dave and Latula with their 'cool kid' acts, Karkat with his boasting and shouting. And while my memory of Latula is fuzzy, Dave and Karkat also share a fear of their aspect - Dave, with his fear of death (which is one of Time's underlying themes), Karkat, with his fear of his blood color being discovered. Throughout all the classes, there are common themes that express themselves in personalities. Sometimes they're major things - Jake and Tavros, for instance, being insecure, rather pathetic, over-eager. Sometimes they're minor things - ie Dave / Karkat's fear of their aspects. Aspects, however, have a much weaker link. Because the aspect isn't the act, the aspect is the thing being acted on. You're not only failing to look at the classpect as a whole, but looking at the lessly significant (personality wise) half. Jake and Eridan, for instance, are both Hope players. However, Eridan is a Prince, a class which tends to actively oppose its aspect, and Jake is a Page, a player who, while in admiration of their aspect, tends to be unable to use it. I seriously doubt that any class descriptions could transform the quiz's Aspect descriptions in a way that could produce the canon characters. Take Prince. How can the description of Prince account for the fact that Eridan and Kurloz seem to be a better fit for their paired Aspect while Dirk is clearly best described by Heart instead of Mind? Or what would the Thief class description have to be? To completely ignore your Aspect because regardless of what you're a Thief of, you'll always be the same driven and confident but self centered anti-hero? The fact that all canon Knights will agree with the Knight description makes no more difference than that all canon Breath players fir the canon Breath description. You only need one counter-example to disprove a universal rule, no matter how many examples you have in support of it. At best, you could argue that your personality has to match at least one of class or aspect, but I'd bet we'll have at least one character who matches neither. I wouldn't call it absolute proof, as one other hypothesis remains: The test and it's descriptions were poorly written and constructed. The fact that many of the descriptions completely lack facets that we know to be associated with the Aspects is strong evidence for this possibility. That's not to say I completely disagree with you, I don't think personality is necessarily the be-all-and-end-all of one's title. But I do think it's a fairly important factor, so the fact that not just some, but most of the characters don't match these descriptions is a warning sign to me. Question is, are the descriptions off because they weren't handled by Hussie but rather by someone who didn't have a full picture or direction on the matter, or is it a result of trying too hard to broaden and vagueify them for this Barnum-y horoscope thing this test is going for. I see nothing wrong with the quiz descriptions. They agree with canon at a far greater rate than would be expected purely by chance. If they miss some of the ways the characters are tied to their Aspects, it's only because it's a personality test and Luck, Death, and Reproduction aren't personality traits. It leaves out the generic trait of deeply caring about your Aspect because most normal people, as opposed to heroes and villains on the road to becoming gods, aren't going to center their lives around becoming a psychopomp to dead souls or devote themselves to restoring their species's ability to reproduce. It dovetails completely with, for example, the fact that we know Bards tend to single-handedly and suddenly change the fate of their session, but only half the Bards in the story did that.
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Pandora
Juvesquirt
IT YO GURL DORA
Posts: 13
Pronouns: she/her/hers
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Post by Pandora on Nov 29, 2017 1:24:23 GMT
I seriously doubt that any class descriptions could transform the quiz's Aspect descriptions in a way that could produce the canon characters. Take Prince. How can the description of Prince account for the fact that Eridan and Kurloz seem to be a better fit for their paired Aspect while Dirk is clearly best described by Heart instead of Mind? Or what would the Thief class description have to be? To completely ignore your Aspect because regardless of what you're a Thief of, you'll always be the same driven and confident but self centered anti-hero? The fact that all canon Knights will agree with the Knight description makes no more difference than that all canon Breath players fir the canon Breath description. You only need one counter-example to disprove a universal rule, no matter how many examples you have in support of it. At best, you could argue that your personality has to match at least one of class or aspect, but I'd bet we'll have at least one character who matches neither. The problem here is, in the comic, the aspects in and of themselves *do not have strict personalities*. Time usually involves the player having something related to death, Life usually includes rebellion. But neither rebellious tendencies or an association with death are personality types, while classes are clear, distinct personalities. Take Dirk and Eridan - their grand ambitions, their breaking points. While you can say that Dirk and Eridan are very similar personality types, you can't say the same for, say, Meenah and Feferi. Or Meenah and Jane. This is because their personalities are a result of their class acting on their aspect. The class is the driving force, but the aspect is where that driving force is directed. Also, Dirk is a Prince of Heart. I'm not sure what you're trying to say? Were he not a Prince, he might fit better under mind, but his personality is a result of his class (Prince) suppressing his aspect. He tried to be logical and manipulative, and, y'know, not very upfront with his feelings. Because he refused to embrace Heart. Were he a Prince of Mind, he would likely have trouble acting logically and instead be extremely emotional. That being said, we do not know a whole lot about Heart's manifestations in-comic. It also should be noted that it is possible to reject your role. We saw this with Rose, as a very extreme example, when she went grimdark and presumably switched to an Active role with the Void aspect. The most telling fact here being that she went from an informant to one who could not so much as being understood due to her gibberish. However, her being Grimdark was not healthy for the session. That's how these things go. Healthy players embrace their role, unhealthy players discard them. This relates to your comment about bards: the alpha trolls were players in a failed session, and it's likely that Cronus simply did not fulfill his potential as a bard. Also, it should be noted that bards turning a session around singlehandedly is considered an exception. While they are wildcards, them singlehandedly dooming or saving a session is considered a very extreme scenario.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 29, 2017 1:41:07 GMT
I see nothing wrong with the quiz descriptions. They agree with canon at a far greater rate than would be expected purely by chance. If they miss some of the ways the characters are tied to their Aspects, it's only because it's a personality test and Luck, Death, and Reproduction aren't personality traits. It leaves out the generic trait of deeply caring about your Aspect because most normal people, as opposed to heroes and villains on the road to becoming gods, aren't going to center their lives around becoming a psychopomp to dead souls or devote themselves to restoring their species's ability to reproduce. It dovetails completely with, for example, the fact that we know Bards tend to single-handedly and suddenly change the fate of their session, but only half the Bards in the story did that. Well of course they are better than pure chance. Any half-baked theorist could write some descriptions that are somewhat correct. The problem with these descriptions is, as you say, these have been abridged to only pertain to personality traits because this is a personality quiz. This is a reasonable thing for them to have done of course, but what I'm saying is that by removing entire facets like this, that makes the descriptions inherently inaccurate even if the chunk leftover is technically true; think "lie by omission"(but without the associated malice) Of course the canon characters don't fully match up with this test's result, because there's more to these characters than just personality. Which is your original point, I know. But in addition to this point, I'm also saying that the test isn't really worth anything for analyzing canon Classpects anyway, because it's basically a thought exercise of "What would your Aspect be if the Aspects weren't really the actual Aspects?"
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Post by heirloomairloom on Nov 29, 2017 2:39:41 GMT
The problem here is, in the comic, the aspects in and of themselves *do not have strict personalities*. Time usually involves the player having something related to death, Life usually includes rebellion. But neither rebellious tendencies or an association with death are personality types, while classes are clear, distinct personalities. Take Dirk and Eridan - their grand ambitions, their breaking points. While you can say that Dirk and Eridan are very similar personality types, you can't say the same for, say, Meenah and Feferi. Or Meenah and Jane. This is because their personalities are a result of their class acting on their aspect. The class is the driving force, but the aspect is where that driving force is directed. I'm interested in what "clear, distinct personality" Sollux shares with Meulin or that Rufioh shares with Nepeta or John with Equius. Were it not for Rose going Grimdark, she would likely have been the one to go on the green sun mission, costing the players two god tiers and leaving the trolls stranded at the green sun. Conversely, I think Eridan and his team would have both been far better off if he acted less like a Prince of Hope. But now we're even further afield of classpects as descriptors of a player's personality, with them rather being the personality you need in order to do well in your SBURB session. And I agree that isn't disproven by the canon descriptions, since you can't disprove that someone wouldn't have done even better in their game if they'd acted differently. Well of course they are better than pure chance. Any half-baked theorist could write some descriptions that are somewhat correct. The problem with these descriptions is, as you say, these have been abridged to only pertain to personality traits because this is a personality quiz. This is a reasonable thing for them to have done of course, but what I'm saying is that by removing entire facets like this, that makes the descriptions inherently inaccurate even if the chunk leftover is technically true; think "lie by omission"(but without the associated malice) Of course the canon characters don't fully match up with this test's result, because there's more to these characters than just personality. Which is your original point, I know. But in addition to this point, I'm also saying that the test isn't really worth anything for analyzing canon Classpects anyway, because it's basically a thought exercise of "What would your Aspect be if the Aspects weren't really the actual Aspects?" I think it's more like "What would your Aspect be given that you aren't the kind of extreme personality that would bias you overwhelmingly towards one Aspect." Sure, if you are completely obsessed with luck to the point you believe it controls your life and you aren't personally responsible for anything, you're going to be a hero of Light. But if you're like that, your Aspect would be so obvious that the idea of taking a test would be moot.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 29, 2017 7:49:27 GMT
Actually guys, I think this whole time we've been missing the most important piece of info from this test.
We now have an actual, accurate colour for Doom: #306800
If I'm not mistaken, all examples of Doom's colour scheme seen up until now were either from physical merch, which were inaccurate to start with and can't be sampled precisely, or were on sprites made by guest artists who were just going off said merch.
EDIT: Actually though, looking into it further, this test has different colours for just about every Aspect, even the well established ones like Breath. So either Hussie is retconning all the colour schemes that have been so consistent throughout Homestuck, or this test really was assembled by someone who isn't in-tune with the canon as they should be.
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Post by Gab on Nov 29, 2017 14:41:32 GMT
I'm not positive but the Aspects look a tiny bit different from normal to me, like they were all redrawn for this quiz. Light looks a little asymmetric now, like it's been tilted slightly. Stuff like that. So I don't think these are old assets dug up from somewhere. But I haven't really pored over everything to see.
That said, exact color values are pretty low priority under the best circumstances. They all looked right to me, so if they're slightly off from how they used to look, it isn't that important. It has nothing at all to do with "canon."
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unclevertitle
Juvesquirt
Standing under a rotating cosmos.
Posts: 15
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Post by unclevertitle on Nov 30, 2017 19:04:35 GMT
Another oddity, is that, with the above rules about precedence, Breath would seem to be the default, most common answer, but if you put C for everything, it gives you Time instead. Heh, I'm thinking that might be a reference towards being 0k with everything.
Which I find hilarious. Anyone who remembers MMORPGSTUCK and my brief role in it might as well.
Granted, Class isn't actually a part of the true sign test. But assuming Hussie does set up a personality quiz for Class I'll be able to find out if I just happen to be the Bardest Bard who ever Barded.
I'd draw the line at the codpiece though.
So maybe not the absolute bardest.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 1, 2017 2:24:10 GMT
So here's another little oddity I've spotted: understanding that sometimes you have to let something burn to the ground in order to build it back better and stronger than before. they aren't adverse to a little destruction, especially if they think they can replace it with something better and more just. they would tear down a system just to destabilize it if, by their reckoning, it is built on faulty premises. After all, in order for something new to be built, the old, rotting foundation must often be razed. This same idea is repeated 4 times in the Aspect descriptions. Lazy writing, or secret revolutionary propaganda? the plot thicken
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vie
Greentike
Posts: 8
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Post by vie on Dec 1, 2017 3:02:12 GMT
I don't think those are remotely the same idea, apart from in the incredibly generic sense that they all come from the spectrum of 'sometimes, due to a variety and circumstances and for a variety of intended outcomes, it might be better or at least acceptable if certain things were damaged or removed'. Each of those statements is, imo, a decent expression of core concepts in the test's aspect blurbs and collecting all of these mentions of how different aspects endorse destruction only serves to highlight their differences.
Space is talking about the aspects big picture perspective, that sometimes it's wiser in the grand scheme of things not to intervene against destruction. Hope and Rage's comments highlight a key contrast between their philosophies- the point is that Hope is okay with some destruction if and only if it is for the sake of replacing it with a preconceived better thing whereas Rage is explicitly willing to destroy just to remove a negative with no plan for replacement, because Hope is all about yes-saying to good things and Rage about no-saying to bad things. Meanwhile, in context, the Void comment concerns that aspect's willingness to embrace uncertainty and confusion, not any particular destructive tendencies.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 1, 2017 3:07:30 GMT
I'd instead interpret it as showing that a single personality trait may bias you towards multiple different Aspects, and that even then you aren't guaranteed to get any of them, as the one person who does want to destroy the current social order to replace it, Feferi, isn't a hero of any of those 4.
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Post by Gab on Dec 3, 2017 19:38:29 GMT
While I haven't been participating much personally, on a discord chat I'm in there's been some ongoing work going into figuring out how the quiz works exactly, and it looks like it's been figured out. I'll break it down here: The quiz is composed of 12 questions with 5 possible answers for each. Every two questions is linked to an aspect pair. Oh, and this table is going to be very relevant, so I'd study it. Questions 1 and 2 are tied to Breath and Blood. 3 & 4 are Light & Void. 5 & 6 : Space & Time. 7 & 8 : Heart & Mind. 9 & 10 : hope & Rage. 11 & 12 : Life & Doom. For each question, you can lean towards one aspect, the other, or neither. A will always lean towards the first aspect in the pair for each I described (e.g. answering A on question 1 and 2 will lean towards Breath, etc.), and E towards the other. A certain value of points are distributed depending on your answer. If you pick either A or E, one of the extreme answers, that aspect will receive 4 points. If you pick B or D, one of the leaning answers, it's halved to 2 points. But it's not as simple as that. The chosen aspect isn't the only to receive points. The two aspects adjacent to that one do too. Exactly half as many as the chosen one gets. So if, on question 1 you choose A, Breath would get 4 points, but Life and Hope would each get 2 points too. And if you instead picked, say, D, then Blood would get 2 points, and Doom and Rage would both get 1 point. Picking C on any question is a bit quirky. It gives no points at all to either main aspect of that question (so Breath and Blood for question 1, for instance), one point to the adjacents for BOTH (so Hope, Life, Doom, and Rage), and two points for every other aspect (Time, Space, Light, Void, Heart, & Mind). Then comes the tie breakers. The test has to pick one aspect, but two or more aspects may have the same point values. There is a bias to help determine this. The order is Time, then Space, then Heart, Mind, Hope, Rage, Light, Void, Breath, Blood, Life, and finally Doom. If the two highest values of any of these are the same, then the one closest to first in order wins. There is one more caveat to this. If a pair of aspects are both tied, they cancel each other out. So say Time, Rage, and Space are all tied for the most points. Ordinarily Time would win, being the highest priority. But Rage actually wins in this case, because aspect pairs cancel each other out, allowing lower priority aspects to win. In the case that all winning aspects happen to be tied, then regular priority applies, and the first aspect of the highest pair wins. And that's that. It's worth noting that isn't the original numbering I saw, but I messed with it slightly. I haven't tested it, so it may not be accurate. But here is a tumblr post which explains the same concept in less words and without specific integers, and here is a google spreadsheet with a lot of integers.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 3, 2017 20:03:21 GMT
While I haven't been participating much personally, on a discord chat I'm in there's been some ongoing work going into figuring out how the quiz works exactly, and it looks like it's been figured out. I'll break it down here: The quiz is composed of 12 questions with 5 possible answers for each. Every two questions is linked to an aspect pair. Oh, and this table is going to be very relevant, so I'd study it. Questions 1 and 2 are tied to Breath and Blood. 3 & 4 are Light & Void. 5 & 6 : Space & Time. 7 & 8 : Heart & Mind. 9 & 10 : hope & Rage. 11 & 12 : Life & Doom. For each question, you can lean towards one aspect, the other, or neither. A will always lean towards the first aspect in the pair for each I described (e.g. answering A on question 1 and 2 will lean towards Breath, etc.), and E towards the other. A certain value of points are distributed depending on your answer. If you pick either A or E, one of the extreme answers, that aspect will receive 4 points. If you pick B or D, one of the leaning answers, it's halved to 2 points. But it's not as simple as that. The chosen aspect isn't the only to receive points. The two aspects adjacent to that one do too. Exactly half as many as the chosen one gets. So if, on question 1 you choose A, Breath would get 4 points, but Life and Hope would each get 2 points too. And if you instead picked, say, D, then Blood would get 2 points, and Doom and Rage would both get 1 point. Picking C on any question is a bit quirky. It gives no points at all to either main aspect of that question (so Breath and Blood for question 1, for instance), one point to the adjacents for BOTH (so Hope, Life, Doom, and Rage), and two points for every other aspect (Time, Space, Light, Void, Heart, & Mind). Then comes the tie breakers. The test has to pick one aspect, but two or more aspects may have the same point values. There is a bias to help determine this. The order is Time, then Space, then Heart, Mind, Hope, Rage, Light, Void, Breath, Blood, Life, and finally Doom. If the two highest values of any of these are the same, then the one closest to first in order wins. There is one more caveat to this. If a pair of aspects are both tied, they cancel each other out. So say Time, Rage, and Space are all tied for the most points. Ordinarily Time would win, being the highest priority. But Rage actually wins in this case, because aspect pairs cancel each other out, allowing lower priority aspects to win. In the case that all winning aspects happen to be tied, then regular priority applies, and the first aspect of the highest pair wins. And that's that. It's worth noting that isn't the original numbering I saw, but I messed with it slightly. I haven't tested it, so it may not be accurate. But here is a tumblr post which explains the same concept in less words and without specific integers, and here is a google spreadsheet with a lot of integers. I guess that confirms the concept of the Aspect wheel then. I had seen people talking about the wheel when this came out, but since the test itself explicitly mentioned the pairing as a relevant mechanic, but made no mention of adjacency, I figured that it wasn't actually a thing, and people were just reading too much into the flashy graphic used. Guess not. Well, if nothing else, that gives me a whole new set of things for me to nitpick and moan about. Prior to this, I had never put any stock into the wheel idea, because no-one could make one that made sense to me, there's always at least one link that's seems really strenuous. Maybe the botched Aspect descriptions here are a result of trying to appease both the pairings and adjacencies at the same time.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 3, 2017 20:59:06 GMT
I'm not sure how much stock to put into the internals of the test. Is this supposed to be implying that having one of an Aspect's associated personality traits biases you towards two other Aspects to a lesser extent? If so, it must be an incredibly weak effect. Gamzee and Kurloz do hide who they are (Heart), Terezi has strong convictions about right and wrong (Hope), Kankri as the Signless fits Rage almost as well as Blood, and Aranea is concerned with healing people, but those are the only ones that stand out as fitting with their neighboring Aspects. I think you'd get similar results by taking any two random other Aspects and seeing how well they fit each player.
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Post by Gab on Dec 3, 2017 21:39:02 GMT
It's worth noting, in some models I've seen, have also put a minor number of points into the opposing aspect as well when choosing the other (e.g. getting some points in Blood, but more in Breath). I like the idea, but that's not the model I followed. But then again, I didn't test mine either. That model should be available on the google spreadsheet I mentioned as well. EDIT: Also, another relevant link.
EDIT: And another one! This one more useful for theorizing.
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axolotlSushi
Scampermaster
Hi, my name is That Bastard
Posts: 215
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by axolotlSushi on Dec 4, 2017 2:49:46 GMT
I came here to see what kind of mayhem has sprung up since the release of the extended zodiac, and let me say, I'm not disappointed. >;]
I, for one, think it's really interesting. I'm a bit sad to see the Mind aspect leave my aesthetic, but at least I still have something information based. And, after considering it a bit, I think I know why...
In the description for the Mind aspect, it's described as being very concerned with consequences. "They are very concerned with remaining rational, and they have such a firm hold on the constant conjunction of their thinking that it's easy for them to see the multitudes of the choices laid out before them, which often leaves them frozen and unable to act."
Frozen and unable to act is the key. A mind player may face constant trouble making decisions, because they can see every possible path, and may not trust their own judgement to choose the right one. This is displayed in canon, too– let's use Terezi as an example. As bright and bold as she may try to appear, her hesitation displays its self quite blatantly, especially later in the comic, like in her relationship with Karkat. (I'd give more clear examples, but it's been awhile since I've taken the time to read through.)
Light, on the other hand, is described as even more knowledge based, if slightly less with rationality... "They are, above all, driven to learn and understand." Driven. The pursuit of knowledge is key to them, they were built to learn. They'll do something out of sheer curiosity, just because they feel like it, regardless of the consequences. Screw the consequences, those can be dealt with once they have the data they want. (Anyone who knows me can tell you without hesitation that that's much more like me... :x) Vriska, for example, is shown to be much more impulsive, although it can be argued that that's just the thief in her. Rose's going grimdark though, I think is another good example. It shows impulsivity in even a regularly composed individual, just because her pursuit and idea of data was skewed.
Anyway, those are just my ramblings.
Another interesting thing is, I tried going through the quiz in the mindset of a few of my favourite characters to roleplay, and consistently got positive results. Just to throw that out there. :x
Also, one might notice that I have a teal sign instead of my Virgo roots... For one, I was born removed early, two I need to keep that teal aesthetic somehow, and three, I was not having the balls sign. So there. Bite me.
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Post by heirloomairloom on Dec 4, 2017 3:26:27 GMT
I came here to see what kind of mayhem has sprung up since the release of the extended zodiac, and let me say, I'm not disappointed. >;] I, for one, think it's really interesting. I'm a bit sad to see the Mind aspect leave my aesthetic, but at least I still have something information based. And, after considering it a bit, I think I know why... In the description for the Mind aspect, it's described as being very concerned with consequences. "They are very concerned with remaining rational, and they have such a firm hold on the constant conjunction of their thinking that it's easy for them to see the multitudes of the choices laid out before them, which often leaves them frozen and unable to act." Frozen and unable to act is the key. A mind player may face constant trouble making decisions, because they can see every possible path, and may not trust their own judgement to choose the right one. This is displayed in canon, too– let's use Terezi as an example. As bright and bold as she may try to appear, her hesitation displays its self quite blatantly, especially later in the comic, like in her relationship with Karkat. (I'd give more clear examples, but it's been awhile since I've taken the time to read through.) Light, on the other hand, is described as even more knowledge based, if slightly less with rationality... "They are, above all, driven to learn and understand." Driven. The pursuit of knowledge is key to them, they were built to learn. They'll do something out of sheer curiosity, just because they feel like it, regardless of the consequences. Screw the consequences, those can be dealt with once they have the data they want. (Anyone who knows me can tell you without hesitation that that's much more like me... :x) Vriska, for example, is shown to be much more impulsive, although it can be argued that that's just the thief in her. Rose's going grimdark though, I think is another good example. It shows impulsivity in even a regularly composed individual, just because her pursuit and idea of data was skewed. Anyway, those are just my ramblings. Another interesting thing is, I tried going through the quiz in the mindset of a few of my favourite characters to roleplay, and consistently got positive results. Just to throw that out there. :x Also, one might notice that I have a teal sign instead of my Virgo roots... For one, I was born removed early, two I need to keep that teal aesthetic somehow, and three, I was not having the balls sign. So there. Bite me. Y'know you can still consider yourself a Mind player if you really want. Almost half of the canon characters don't have the Aspect that best fits them, and a few have personalities that are completely at odds with their Aspect's associated personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of confident, even brash, heroes of Mind in Paradox Space who aren't at all burdened with choice paralysis.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 4, 2017 6:09:39 GMT
It time for my nitpick of the day: Their identity is fluid-it can change from day-to-day, from thought-to-thought, from interaction-to-interaction. Remaining logical is more important to them than building up a solid foundation of "self." I'm not really sure why this is here. I guess you could read it as referring to Latula's fake personality, but it's a little bit of a stretch. More importantly, is that the description makes it sound like this is a necessity of Mind Players, as if Rationality and Identity were somehow mutually exclusive. I just don't see that logic. Surely, at the very least, "I want to be rational" is a personality/identity in and of itself? I guess maybe it could refer to the philosophical idea that a being that was perfectly omniscient wouldn't have any meaningful personality since they'd just be a blandly perfect optimisation engine. But since A) I doubt any Mind player except maybe a Lord could ever get even close to full omniscience, B) Doc Scratch seemingly proves that idea wrong anyway, at least within Homestuck's universe and C) this test is supposedly for normal people who are not omniscient anyway, the whole idea is rather moot.
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Post by Gab on Dec 4, 2017 15:40:57 GMT
"I want to be rational" is an identity trait. One copacetic with how the Mind aspect is described. This is how I read it.
What axolotlSushi said above was relevant to me too. Sometimes the difference between bound by one aspect or another can come down to which one drives you more, like the source of your power. What drives someone bound by the Mind aspect is logical, rational thought. Like Spock from Star Trek! It's about how you exert yourself in the real, physical world around you. It's about being a part of something much, much bigger than yourself, and taking that responsibility seriously.
Of course that's all conjecture because I am not Mind-bound, but that's how I see it. One driven by this ideal would be inclined to think beyond themselves, or in other words, place less importance on their own self or desires. Who you are isn't as important as what you do.
But don't take that to mean Heart and Mind are mutually exclusive, because aspects don't work that way. Space is not the opposite of Time. Heart is not the opposite of Mind. They're more like complementary pairs, touching on similar ideas (in this case, the idea of Self) in ways that seem opposed, but are also inseparable.
Consider also that Terezi is in fact very concerned with her personal identity by the end. She's put off by her own aspect and distrustful of it, but ultimately Mind is still what drives her. She can only find time to dwell on her identity crisis in quiet downtime when there's nothing else to do.
Dirk is sort of like the other side of that coin too. He tries to play the puppetmaster at first, presenting the cold face of flawless logic, but all his plans go awry because he can't foresee the consequences of his own actions. What truly drives him is his own identity, which to him is something inescapable, something he can't get away from no matter how hard he tries.
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Pandora
Juvesquirt
IT YO GURL DORA
Posts: 13
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Post by Pandora on Dec 4, 2017 17:16:17 GMT
Almost half of the canon characters don't have the Aspect that best fits them, and a few have personalities that are completely at odds with their Aspect's associated personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of confident, even brash, heroes of Mind in Paradox Space who aren't at all burdened with choice paralysis. Which is exactly the problem with these new Aspect descriptions. They completely botch canon. The aspects work fine in canon, in the context of the classpect system. This new system is just half-assed.
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