Fish
Rungjumpin' Ragamuffin
mostly on discord
Posts: 285
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by Fish on Apr 17, 2016 19:04:16 GMT
I disagree with the analogy. We know how they'd get there - they're retconned in. We were told that. The real question is WHEN in this case. I dunno anything about LOTR so I can't compete with all the ~ fancy Tolkien analogies~ round here, and it's still a valid question to have, but it's a bit of a different situation - and, in my opinion, more acceptable. When actually doesn't matter as much as why. The kids are given no motivation whatsoever to go after Lord English, and if the vision of the kids on earth isn't just a dream or a possibility but what actually happened, it looks like that's something that doesn't change for the foreseeable future. "When" is post-GO retcon, but pre-Vriska retcon. And "Why" is up to interpretation, but if the kids were unable to find the door (they were still stuck), they presumably would have sought to defeat Caliborn in hopes of gaining freedom. Arquius would come along because he's really cool, I guess? Created in A2 session, sent to Alternia and grew up there, entered the A2 session, went to the ectobiology meteor, got captured by Terezi, spent 3 years on that meteor, got trapped inside a fridge for what was left of the B2 session, entered the black hole and presumably ended up on Earth in the far future, broke out of the fridge, raised Calliope and Caliborn, entered Caliborn's session, presumably got sliced in half by Dirk, and got sucked into Lil Cal. We can only guess what the deal with that black hole is, because it's so random and nonsensical it almost physically hurts. Also, pre-retcon, anyone? We know the timeline was not intended to go the Game Over route, and essentially had to be retconned. It wouldn't work for Gamzee to come from the pre-retcon timeline, just like it wouldn't work for Caliborn to exist in that timeline. There's a weird narrative duality here where retcons are supposed to alter the timeline without having to worry about paradoxes, but can actually be accounted for by the story before we see them happen and eliminate paradoxes rather than create them (thus, Lord English was in Cal all along, even though the retcon where John brought the kids to Caliborn didn't happen until long, long after LE/Cal's influence was cemented in the story). I wonder if the Epilogue will show some of what happened in the Medium while volcanoes were exploding and stuff. Where did GCaTavrosprite end up? What about all the consorts? And Jack Noir and Ms. Paint? Would also like to see the reader again . . . |
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loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
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Post by loading on Apr 17, 2016 19:29:17 GMT
There's consorts in the shot just before it pulls away from Earth.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 17, 2016 22:59:23 GMT
Just realized something that might help out anyone who was dissatisfied by a particular aspect of the ending. Roxy and Jake can MAKE quest slabs for the trolls.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
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Post by imglasses on Apr 18, 2016 0:31:29 GMT
Just realized something that might help out anyone who was dissatisfied by a particular aspect of the ending. Roxy and Jake can MAKE quest slabs for the trolls. Maybe. We're not sure exactly what their limitations are when it comes to making game constructs (for instance, I doubt it'd let them create a genesis frog out of thin air to beat the game). |
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 18, 2016 1:07:13 GMT
The thing is though, wasn't this whole 'outliving thing' already a huge deal a long time ago because of the whole life-span of the trolls being dependent on their blood thing?
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Post by sasuke on Apr 18, 2016 1:16:29 GMT
sigh. i keep seeing act 7 pop up in recommended videos on youtube and it bothers me. i watched it ~1.5 times and honestly dont really wana watch it ever again. the epilogue probably wont even wrap up the masterpiece/LE final battle, and im not interested in another mega hiatus, especially after we were told this was the 'conclusion' so many times. i honestly believe hussie left off right before the final confrontation in order to piss people off, either cuz he hated the fandom, just thought it would be 'funny' or to 'teach us a lesson'. well i guess i learned mine. I dunno, I think to some extent you're kind of creating your own hell here, by insisting the ending sucks so much and looking for justification for that, rather than pursuing other angles. If you ask me. Which you didn't. Sorry. i mean, your right in a way. but i just a big thing against inconclusive endings. its who i am. i will say act 7's music was fitting and the animation was as well and fit homestucks style (which i didnt feel like for collide). Ok, I'll admit it first.... I didn't totally hate the trickster arc. I thought it was kind of funny in an absurd way. And I kind of liked seeing all the colors and candified shit. i thought the trickster arc was funny. when roxy was like 'batterwitch pls help' i was like lmao. |
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 18, 2016 1:21:54 GMT
I like the trickster arc too and I thought it was hilarious when I first read it. Jane: Engage is one of the best short wtf flashes I've ever seen, behind John: Reunite with your loving wife and daughter.
nothing beats the later. not even cascade.
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Post by sasuke on Apr 18, 2016 1:23:56 GMT
I dunno, I think to some extent you're kind of creating your own hell here, by insisting the ending sucks so much and looking for justification for that, rather than pursuing other angles. If you ask me. Which you didn't. Sorry. i mean, your right in a way. but i just got a big thing against inconclusive endings. its who i am. i will say act 7's music was fitting and the animation was as well. really fit homestucks style (which i didnt feel like for collide besides the sprite battles). Ok, I'll admit it first.... I didn't totally hate the trickster arc. I thought it was kind of funny in an absurd way. And I kind of liked seeing all the colors and candified shit. i thought the trickster arc was funny. when roxy was like 'batterwitch pls help' i was like lmao. |
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 18, 2016 1:31:26 GMT
Just realized something that might help out anyone who was dissatisfied by a particular aspect of the ending. Roxy and Jake can MAKE quest slabs for the trolls. Maybe. We're not sure exactly what their limitations are when it comes to making game constructs (for instance, I doubt it'd let them create a genesis frog out of thin air to beat the game). I think it depends on how large the object in question is. Roxy was seen making relatively small things like the Matriorb and Perfectly Generic Objects. So it would probably take some effort but they could probably make a quest slab. |
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 18, 2016 1:50:56 GMT
Just realized something that might help out anyone who was dissatisfied by a particular aspect of the ending. Roxy and Jake can MAKE quest slabs for the trolls. Maybe. We're not sure exactly what their limitations are when it comes to making game constructs (for instance, I doubt it'd let them create a genesis frog out of thin air to beat the game). I think they probably could just create a genesis frog, but trying to use it would result in an instant game over, like when you make a Starite in Scribblenauts. |
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Post by NorthernDruid on Apr 18, 2016 2:07:00 GMT
One Things that I've realised about Alt!Calliope destroying the green sun. And at least one partial reason for it:
From the beginning of the reasoning here.
Now, we know LE has been to many universes, not just A2. And that he inserts himself via doc scratch.
Doc Scratch is born via a specific genetic code along and combine-paradox cloned from some specific materials. The genetic code is the First Guardian code.
First Guardians are powered by the Green Sun.
So, quite simply. No Green Sun means no Doc Scratch meaning no LE getting into that universe in particular.
Alt!Calliope destroyed the Green Sun in order to destroy LE in effect, not by eliminating his physical form. His physical form means rather little all things considered really, seeing as how he enters universes is through glitching himself into them with Doc Scratch as his vessel for entry. Destroying the Green Sun means an end to him, because he no longer has a way to continue his cycle of destruction.
Simultaneously he might be trapped in the furthest ring by the black hole or whatever the House Juju does. And his last means of continuing on was Union Jack, which was sliced apart with a cueball sword. Unless his form there is actually destroyed somehow.
Regardless it doesn't matter, all those glitches and exploits weren't ways to cause him literal harm, they were methods of limiting his effective lifespan. He can rage around the furthest ring for as long as he bloody well likes, the Green Sun isn't coming back, and he's not gonna be able to reach any of the universes the sun didn't touch. LE can't be killed in the traditional way, because he's already incarnated somewhere else. But he can most definatively be stopped in a less direct way, and he has. Alt!Calliope destroyed his only way of reaching new universes and then the kids created a new one outside it's purview.
Hope that was clear to follow and not badly written out because 4 AM.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
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Post by imglasses on Apr 18, 2016 2:12:56 GMT
One Things that I've realised about Alt!Calliope destroying the green sun. And at least one partial reason for it: From the beginning of the reasoning here. Now, we know LE has been to many universes, not just A2. And that he inserts himself via doc scratch. Doc Scratch is born via a specific genetic code along and combine-paradox cloned from some specific materials. The genetic code is the First Guardian code. First Guardians are powered by the Green Sun. So, quite simply. No Green Sun means no Doc Scratch meaning no LE getting into that universe in particular. Alt!Calliope destroyed the Green Sun in order to destroy LE in effect, not by eliminating his physical form. His physical form means rather little all things considered really, seeing as how he enters universes is through glitching himself into them with Doc Scratch as his vessel for entry. Destroying the Green Sun means an end to him, because he no longer has a way to continue his cycle of destruction. Simultaneously he might be trapped in the furthest ring by the black hole or whatever the House Juju does. And his last means of continuing on was Union Jack, which was sliced apart with a cueball sword. Unless his form there is actually destroyed somehow. Regardless it doesn't matter, all those glitches and exploits weren't ways to cause him literal harm, they were methods of limiting his effective lifespan. He can rage around the furthest ring for as long as he bloody well likes, the Green Sun isn't coming back, and he's not gonna be able to reach any of the universes the sun didn't touch. LE can't be killed in the traditional way, because he's already incarnated somewhere else. But he can most definatively be stopped in a less direct way, and he has. Alt!Calliope destroyed his only way of reaching new universes and then the kids created a new one outside it's purview. Hope that was clear to follow and not badly written out because 4 AM. Doc Scratch is efficient, but LE doesn't need his host to be a first guardian [see: Union Jack]. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 18, 2016 2:17:52 GMT
Maybe. We're not sure exactly what their limitations are when it comes to making game constructs (for instance, I doubt it'd let them create a genesis frog out of thin air to beat the game). I think it depends on how large the object in question is. Roxy was seen making relatively small things like the Matriorb and Perfectly Generic Objects. So it would probably take some effort but they could probably make a quest slab. There's also the fact that we don't know if they keep their God Tier powers if they go through the door. The problem with this is paradoxes. Since Lord English is always already here, what happens if his way of getting here is taken out? Potentially, lot's and lot's and LOT's of paradoxes. And what does Paradox Space do with time lines that have paradoxes in them? |
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Post by melonlord on Apr 18, 2016 2:23:50 GMT
One Things that I've realised about Alt!Calliope destroying the green sun. And at least one partial reason for it: From the beginning of the reasoning here. Now, we know LE has been to many universes, not just A2. And that he inserts himself via doc scratch. Doc Scratch is born via a specific genetic code along and combine-paradox cloned from some specific materials. The genetic code is the First Guardian code. First Guardians are powered by the Green Sun. So, quite simply. No Green Sun means no Doc Scratch meaning no LE getting into that universe in particular. Alt!Calliope destroyed the Green Sun in order to destroy LE in effect, not by eliminating his physical form. His physical form means rather little all things considered really, seeing as how he enters universes is through glitching himself into them with Doc Scratch as his vessel for entry. Destroying the Green Sun means an end to him, because he no longer has a way to continue his cycle of destruction. Simultaneously he might be trapped in the furthest ring by the black hole or whatever the House Juju does. And his last means of continuing on was Union Jack, which was sliced apart with a cueball sword. Unless his form there is actually destroyed somehow. Regardless it doesn't matter, all those glitches and exploits weren't ways to cause him literal harm, they were methods of limiting his effective lifespan. He can rage around the furthest ring for as long as he bloody well likes, the Green Sun isn't coming back, and he's not gonna be able to reach any of the universes the sun didn't touch. LE can't be killed in the traditional way, because he's already incarnated somewhere else. But he can most definatively be stopped in a less direct way, and he has. Alt!Calliope destroyed his only way of reaching new universes and then the kids created a new one outside it's purview. Hope that was clear to follow and not badly written out because 4 AM. Hm...I don't think the chronology of the universes and the green sun is quite that straightforward, though. Doc scratch was able to exist "before" the sun was created (linear chronology doesn't mean much in the furthest ring), who says he couldn't exist "after" it was destroyed? ...unless the cracks were enough to stabilize time for the whole of the furthest ring, I suppose, rather than just the area around the cracks. What effects does that black hole even have on furthest ring chronology? Just another unexplained mystery, I suppose. Maybe the epilogue will give some more detail. |
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 18, 2016 2:37:36 GMT
I have come up with a new interpretation of the finale that satisfies thematic concerns while simultaneously making sense plot-wise. The central question is this: why did the door turn white? The answer is this: because it and the juju exist for the same reason. The juju/LE was encoded into Paradox Space/SBURB for a reason: to provide an eventual way out. Defeating Lord English served as a sort of test for the kids and trolls; when it was passed, the door turned white, allowing them to escape Paradox Space once and for all.
That made perfect sense in my head, but feel free to ask questions if I didn't explain myself very well.
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 18, 2016 2:41:01 GMT
I think it depends on how large the object in question is. Roxy was seen making relatively small things like the Matriorb and Perfectly Generic Objects. So it would probably take some effort but they could probably make a quest slab. There's also the fact that we don't know if they keep their God Tier powers if they go through the door. I mean Jade kept her dog ears, why not God Tier powers? |
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 18, 2016 2:49:00 GMT
There's also the fact that we don't know if they keep their God Tier powers if they go through the door. I mean Jade kept her dog ears, why not God Tier powers? Plus, they had to embiggen Earth somehow. |
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Post by Gab on Apr 18, 2016 3:19:37 GMT
I liked the cue ball thing, I just didn't have much to say about it. You covered every implication resulting from your theory, and it all made sense. Yay thank you. You know, Caliborn practically deserves to be the protagonist of the story. He really does. Both sets of kids used the jujus they came across to skip over their personal growth and undo their mistakes. Caliborn, at most, used the crowbar to shut Andrew up and break his clock at the end. He's really the only character to get through Sburb and claim his reward honestly. He also had to work the hardest to get it. You can hate him for being a jerkass, but you can't deny that he keeps his shit together better than the main cast. Villain is better at heroes' job than heroes themselves, how fucked up is that? The first significant thing Caliborn did was abuse the game's mechanic to cut short his species' natural development and literally stunted his growth as an individual. Also, I didn't realize it was the heroes' job to destroy universes and annihilate the void?  ? OTIM i mean, your right in a way. but i just a big thing against inconclusive endings. its who i am. i will say act 7's music was fitting and the animation was as well and fit homestucks style (which i didnt feel like for collide). To be honest, me too. I've almost always preferred things straightforward or with an obvious right answer. I had to do a good bit of soul searching to find a way to reconcile Homestuck's ending in my heart, and maybe that was the point? All I know is, for me personally, while inconclusive endings don't jive with my soul, I'm literally incapable of disliking any decision Homestuck makes, and I guess Act 7 proved I can morph significantly before I start blaming the story. Despite my fan bias, I think this is at least a worthier avenue of logic to consider. It at least seems like more fun than being butthurt about fiction for a significant duration of time. I have come up with a new interpretation of the finale that satisfies thematic concerns while simultaneously making sense plot-wise. The central question is this: why did the door turn white? The answer is this: because it and the juju exist for the same reason. The juju/LE was encoded into Paradox Space/SBURB for a reason: to provide an eventual way out. Defeating Lord English served as a sort of test for the kids and trolls; when it was passed, the door turned white, allowing them to escape Paradox Space once and for all. That made perfect sense in my head, but feel free to ask questions if I didn't explain myself very well. Well I do have one question that I wonder if you are prepared to answer. From what we know of sburb, I just can't put it together. Why does the house door at the end platform suddenly flip backwards and turn white, and is it really related to Caliborn's juju in a seemingly only-tangentially-related session? (For instance, the trolls session, despite being the B1's immediate predecessor, seems to have almost no direct ties to it at all, mechanically or thematically) |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 18, 2016 3:21:41 GMT
I mean Jade kept her dog ears, why not God Tier powers? Plus, they had to embiggen Earth somehow. If them on earth wasn't an imagine spot. |
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thecrystalship
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
sushi guro
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 18, 2016 3:39:32 GMT
If them on earth wasn't an imagine spot. I know I shouldn't, but... I am starting to feel more and more... Like we were actually watching the hypothetical timeline where Terezi didn't remem8er... And we are actually going to pull out of a Mind synapse... It's too "coincidental" that we have ANOTHER sequence where Vriska goes off to fight the invincible demon, alone, out of a mistaken belief that she needs to be the hero. And once again, we don't get to see the whole fight, we are just left to assume that she won. This sequence DIRECTLY parallels the last one, and A6A6I5 was basically dedicated to demonstrating that post-retcon Vriska hadn't changed, and making it seem like she was gonna get her Just desserts. What better way for that to happen other than Terezi remem8ering why she made that decision the first time, and realizing that she needs to do something to stop Vriska this time? There was that whole thing about how Terezi fears the consequences that could arise from Vriska NOT fearing what's in her own mind. I know it's stupid and overly hopeful but this comic is all about parallels and circumstantial simultaneity and callbacks... |
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 18, 2016 3:55:53 GMT
Plus, they had to embiggen Earth somehow. If them on earth wasn't an imagine spot. It still had to be embiggened for the Cherub Session. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 18, 2016 5:02:02 GMT
If them on earth wasn't an imagine spot. It still had to be embiggened for the Cherub Session. Eh. We know so little about what literally happened for all we know this isn't even the right time line for that. |
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 18, 2016 5:30:45 GMT
Just realized something that might help out anyone who was dissatisfied by a particular aspect of the ending. Roxy and Jake can MAKE quest slabs for the trolls. Maybe. We're not sure exactly what their limitations are when it comes to making game constructs (for instance, I doubt it'd let them create a genesis frog out of thin air to beat the game). Roxy stated that her ability to conjure any given object depends on it's complexity. I imagine that Cosmological, Magic Lifeform that gorws into an entire universe is rather complex. Similarly, a Quest Slab, while it may look like simple rock, represents a very complex and powerful process which is similarly complex. Alternatively, the God Tiering process may require Skaia's power/permission etc. and it's possible that Skaia would recognise the summoned slabs as a bootleg knockoff and not take part in the ascension process for those that try to use them. |
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 18, 2016 8:20:37 GMT
If Roxy was able to do that, wouldn't they make her try that before the final fight with the bosses, because if the trolls went godtier that would have made all the battles and flying a bit easier?
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soeroah
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
Posts: 174
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Post by soeroah on Apr 18, 2016 9:28:40 GMT
I doubt Roxy can just magic up working Quest Slabs. Using my amazing powers of Bad Analogies, I imagine it'd go about as effectively as summoning up a computer monitor and expecting to be able to play games with it. It's not connected to anything, etc, so it's just a useless hunk of rock.
The more amusing and likely way I could see the trolls being made immortal (or close to it) would be, as I saw in a tumblr comic, a Dave-Jane Fraymotif which causes Dave's Time powers and Jane's Life powers to extend their lives, like how Crocker did to the Psiionic.
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? OTIM
