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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 11:08:52 GMT
Also, an additional consideration: as it has already been shown in story, as soon as a new universe is created, it already contains a complete timeline; so, whatever happens inside it has suddenly already happened (from an external point of view, of course). This includes Caliborn being born on the ruins of Earth, starting his own Sburb session and doing whatever else he does; it's the exact same process by which the Trolls were able to get ambushed by an iteration of Jack Noir spawned by a Sburb session started by some kids in the universe they just finished creating... with additional madness due to Caliborn being a player character and a god-tier unconditionally immortal Lord Of Time. This is even paralleled visually at the end of the animation. I was sincerely hoping everybody could finally break free of Paradox Space's malevolent tendrils. However, it looks like this is not the case
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 13, 2016 11:14:14 GMT
I'd give it about a 30% chance that Hussie still has one trick up his sleeve; that this isn't really the end. I certainly hope so. This was disappointing.
EDIT: The "Rapture" quote I just remembered brings it up to a 50%. This just feels wrong, and I think Hussie knows it.
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 13, 2016 11:24:09 GMT
I'd give it a 100% chance.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 13, 2016 11:26:58 GMT
If there is another trick up Hussie's sleeve, I'd say it'll be revealed today or tomorrow. He wouldn't drag us along like that.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 11:43:43 GMT
I'm patiently waiting for the denial phase to end and people starting to actually discuss Homestuck's ending
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 11:46:06 GMT
I wouldn't hold out for one. Whatever tricks he may have would be just explaining stuff out with an epilogue, at this point. The Rapture is almost certainly referring to something else to be announced soon (Homestuck 2.0, perhaps) - I always felt it was pretty clear that it wasn't a specific event in the story that he referred to. He even said the actual ending of the comic would only play a part in it - the Rapture is most likely talking about wherever Homestuck's headed next, epilogue and Hiveswap notwithstanding.
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cauchemar
Bravesprout
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Post by cauchemar on Apr 13, 2016 11:54:51 GMT
This is really the end and you're not gonna get a lot of things from the (potential) epilogue. Clearly a huge artistic decision for Hussie was to make it an open ending EVEN REGARDING THE FINAL VICTORY. A lot of people seem convinced Lord English is defeated one way or another, and there's a lot of clues he is, but still: 1 - Caliborn's final act leading to invulnerability is edited in parallel to the door being opened. The mise-en-scène makes this victory of our favorite horrible skull person one of the final shots. 2 - We get a flash forward to the Kids' happy future THEN a rewinding. Why is the rewinding even here? It's the end. It would be entirely nonsensical to put a rewinding here. Except if... the part where they open the door is especially significant, and the happy future must stay a possibility. There are as many ways to demonstrate Lord English obviously won than to show he obviously lose. It is very deliberately built this way.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 11:55:07 GMT
Hussie is trolling us. Otherwise we might better go grab the torches and the pitchforks.
Seriously, this flash was beautiful, but was not an ending in any sense. The villain has not yet been defeated.
Either he intentionally making a bad ending (doubt it), or he is going to release the rest of it soon.
Also his news post has "troll" written all over it. A few months to make the epilogue? Please. You know we'd hate that Hussie, you are saying it on purpose.
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Post by arbitraryTemplar on Apr 13, 2016 12:03:17 GMT
Maybe I'm just being dumb or something, but... I, personally, don't really have an issue with this ending, but I can kinda see why people are getting upset over it. There is one thing to remember, though; this is Hussie we're talking about, so the ending you see might not be the ending you get.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 12:04:06 GMT
If there is another trick up Hussie's sleeve, I'd say it'll be revealed today or tomorrow. He wouldn't drag us along like that. That's the only thing I'm afraid of. I'm willing to wait, but if it's going to be a while just tell me how long so I have something to look forward to to get me through the wait. That's all I want.
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 12:06:33 GMT
Also his news post has "troll" written all over it. A few months to make the epilogue? Please. You know we'd hate that Hussie, you are saying it on purpose. How so? Hussie's never really trolled us in an actual newspost, as far as I know. It's possible the epilogue won't take 'months' (though the earliest I'd see it would be 6/12), but... I'm feeling pretty confident that's it. He seemed genuine in the post. Everybody in the team talking about it seems pretty genuine too. For an epilogue, I'm expecting some explaining of what exactly happened to LE (what the Juju did and how it resulted in his defeat, that is) and some vague character-closing stuff. What role Karkat fulfilled in the new universe, how people are interacting now, as well as possibly when do the kids head off to fight Caliborn. And, well, I don't think he's going to go quite that "DID ANYONE EVEN WIN???" vague - the video was meant to invoke both the birth and the death of Lord English, in multiple ways. The birth of his universe, the origin of his powers, the end of his sister and finally his ultimate, but vague, downfall.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 12:08:32 GMT
homestuck ends on 4/13. also iraq has weapons of mass destruction. to me, end means your story reaches a meaningful conclusion. no story is complete without one. at this point homestuck is a failure. except maybe as an elaborate and very unfuny joke. whats tragic is how close it was to being truly great. Seriously, watch the flash again and count the unfinished scenes. Not even unfinished plot points. SCENES. Why showing Vriska raising the weapon if we are not going to see it attacking? What was Aradia about to do? What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is not over. We don't need an epilogue, we need the actual ending.
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Post by The Paradoxical Insurgent on Apr 13, 2016 12:10:05 GMT
Either we have greatly overestimated Hussie's talent as a writer (God knows he hasn't draw recently), or he is one of those weird phases some artists go through. Going by the newspost, he's had this ending in mind for four years. Four years is more than enough to see that this ending is shit unless the Epilogue is some sort of otherworldly masterpiece. I'm holding out until the Epilogue gets here, but if this is really the end, then the Hussie I knew died a while back.
Maybe it's wasn't AH father that died during the pause, but AH himself.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 12:12:57 GMT
Also his news post has "troll" written all over it. A few months to make the epilogue? Please. You know we'd hate that Hussie, you are saying it on purpose. How so? Hussie's never really trolled us in an actual newspost, as far as I know. It's possible the epilogue won't take 'months' (though the earliest I'd see it would be 6/12), but... I'm feeling pretty confident that's it. He seemed genuine in the post. Everybody in the team talking about it seems pretty genuine too. For an epilogue, I'm expecting some explaining of what exactly happened to LE (what the Juju did and how it resulted in his defeat, that is) and some vague character-closing stuff. What role Karkat fulfilled in the new universe, how people are interacting now, as well as possibly when do the kids head off to fight Caliborn. And, well, I don't think he's going to go quite that "DID ANYONE EVEN WIN???" vague - the video was meant to invoke both the birth and the death of Lord English, in multiple ways. The birth of his universe, the origin of his powers, the end of his sister and finally his ultimate, but vague, downfall. Didn't feel like that. Hussie saying it became "the anime it has always meant to be" is the first sign. Implying the epilogue is just a thing he decided to do because the fans asked is another. Saying he is not in a hurry is another. He is fucking with us, trying to produce the reaction he wants in us. Hussie has had this end in sight for years, he is not just going to show this much disregard about how to do it. The only way I can see Hussie intentionally making this the end is spite. As in, if he honestly hates Homestuck and its fandom and wanted to spit on it. But I think he has too much artistic integrity for that. Hopefully.
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 12:15:13 GMT
Why showing Vriska raising the weapon if we are not going to see it attacking? What was Aradia about to do? What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is not over. We don't need an epilogue, we need the actual ending. Aradia was watching things finally fall apart. It's pretty clear Alt!Calliope's singularity was sucking in the Furthest Ring to some extent - you can see its pieces falling into the black hole. She may have even destroyed it completely, that much is not clear. The clock and the crowbar... felt previous obvious too. Breaking it breaks the clock, which IS after all the physical manifestation of god tier immortality and not simply a representation of it, it seems. Just like breaking it in the middle of Vriska's judgment (no matter where the clock was going to actually stop) jammed it into a just death, breaking his own clock jammed his own fate into immortality. It also gives thematic relevance to his weakness being the cue ball - the swing of the cue ball, the pendulum, is the only thing that can kill a God Tier. Same goes for Caliborn, in this case. The effect of the house juju and when did the kids actually go fight Caliborn would be what's really left hanging, to me - but both those things could be solved in an epilogue, imo. EDIT: Hussie wouldn't comission a fully-animated 9 minute video for the ending if he hated Homestuck. Whether he's a good writer or not or even if he knew how could he end it is up in the air - whether he likes this project really isn't, imo.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 12:19:40 GMT
What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is one of the few things that are actually very clear: the clock has the Time symbol over it, so it's obviously Claiborn's personal death clock; as a god tier, he can only die when the clock says his death his just or heroic. However, by destroying the clock, Caliborn can ensure this judgement never takes place, so his death can't happen. Hence, unconditional immortality. Seriously, I thought that of all things was pretty obvious
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 12:22:58 GMT
What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is one of the few things that are actually very clear: the clock has the Time symbol over it, so it's obviously Claiborn's personal death clock; as a god tier, he can only die when the clock says his death his just or heroic. However, by destroying the clock, Caliborn can ensure this judgement never takes place, so his death can't happen. Hence, unconditional immortality. Seriously, I thought that of all things was pretty obvious Oh. I get it. Thanks. Seriously though, the fact LE didn't go down should make it obvious this is not over. Even if the we can "imagine" or "deduce" what happened, the story is supposed to show it. It's not over.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 13, 2016 12:29:15 GMT
How so? Hussie's never really trolled us in an actual newspost, as far as I know. It's possible the epilogue won't take 'months' (though the earliest I'd see it would be 6/12), but... I'm feeling pretty confident that's it. He seemed genuine in the post. Everybody in the team talking about it seems pretty genuine too. For an epilogue, I'm expecting some explaining of what exactly happened to LE (what the Juju did and how it resulted in his defeat, that is) and some vague character-closing stuff. What role Karkat fulfilled in the new universe, how people are interacting now, as well as possibly when do the kids head off to fight Caliborn. And, well, I don't think he's going to go quite that "DID ANYONE EVEN WIN???" vague - the video was meant to invoke both the birth and the death of Lord English, in multiple ways. The birth of his universe, the origin of his powers, the end of his sister and finally his ultimate, but vague, downfall. Didn't feel like that. Hussie saying it became "the anime it has always meant to be" is the first sign. Implying the epilogue is just a thing he decided to do because the fans asked is another. Saying he is not in a hurry is another. He is fucking with us, trying to produce the reaction he wants in us. Hussie has had this end in sight for years, he is not just going to show this much disregard about how to do it. The only way I can see Hussie intentionally making this the end is spite. As in, if he honestly hates Homestuck and its fandom and wanted to spit on it. But I think he has too much artistic integrity for that. Hopefully. I agree with this. I'd give it about another day to hope that this is a psyche, and if nothing happens then this is official. Although I personally think Hussie's work has really lacked for awhile now, if this does happen and the ending turns out pretty cool and more satisfying, my opinion on Homestuck may change. I think one of the main questions I'm confused about is what has happened to the dreambubbles. I've heard some people saying that Vriska sacrificed herself, and that all the dreambubbles are gone. If that's the case would that mean that Tavros, Meenah, Nepeta, Equius, Eridan and Feferi are officially dead? Like, double dead? If so then.... damn. Good thing I'm not a huge fan of those characters so I don't really care that they didn't get proper closer except for Vriska. But at the same time I'm kind of sad that the dead trolls have remained dead. Was kind of hoping for a last scene with all the trolls together.
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Post by scarodactyl on Apr 13, 2016 12:30:09 GMT
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cauchemar
Bravesprout
Damn it's good to be back in the game! Hehehehehe! :)
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Post by cauchemar on Apr 13, 2016 12:31:22 GMT
Personally I'm really convinced this is the end, the epilogue will not add much... and could even be pretty useless when you see the actual shape of the ending. What is Hussie gonna add, a mess of rushed plot points explanations?
Let's face it, it's a complete failure, storytelling-wise. But in some ways, Homestuck always has been a complete narrative failure. With the popularity the story has been getting and the late focus on pseudo-soap opera stuff, it's hard to remember that once, the reaction to most of Hussie's Flashes was mostly WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED?
The story kept (deliberately) violating two main rules of narration, "Show, don't tell" and "Keep things simple". Hussie just kept piling up characters, species, subplots, planets, universes, eras and timelines, not to mention a mountain of useless details, obtaining an absurd complexity. The flash movies frankly just added to the confusion most of the time. Most of the events happened first and were (painfully and lengthily) explained later. Just think about the godammn RECAPS. They were a catastrophe, an admission of failure, and yet an indispensable read to grasp most of the plot points. To read Homestuck, one just develops the habit to extrapolate a lot, to keep as many details in mind as humanly possible and to advance without trying to understand everything. In various ways, it's a very challenging read.
The ending just looks like a story: a failure. But a FASCINATING, BEAUTIFUL and CREATIVE failure. An imperfect but colorful, experimental, innovating work can be way more interesting than a perfect yet boring masterpiece.
Who here was even on the ride to read a "normal" story? To read, even? There's a reason why the last words are "Thank you for playing". Homestuck's direct "interactivity" may have been mostly a gimmick, but the story never stops playing with you, never stops being this weird kind of table tennis game between Hussie and you. And it was a fun game, wasn't it?
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 12:31:25 GMT
Anyway, back to discussing the actual ending instead of what we would have liked it to be; here's the callback to ends all callbacks: Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton. The conductor's baton has been finally raised! (Also, the soundtrack is actually from a Simphony Impossible to Play!)
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 12:32:31 GMT
We literally saw the floor under Vriska breaking. What was up with that? Did they all die? Did the dream bubbles cease to exist?
Add another unfinished scene to the count.
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cauchemar
Bravesprout
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Post by cauchemar on Apr 13, 2016 12:33:48 GMT
Also the conviction it is intended to be an open ending will probably be a relief for every reader who fear they'll need Homestuck 2.0 or Hiveswap to enjoy the story.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 12:37:10 GMT
The story kept (deliberately) violating two main rules of narration, "Show, don't tell" and "Keep things simple". Hussie just kept piling up characters, species, subplots, planets, universes, eras and timelines, not to mention a mountain of useless details, obtaining an absurd complexity. The flash movies frankly just added to the confusion most of the time. Most of the events happened first and were (painfully and lengthily) explained later. Just think about the godammn RECAPS. They were a catastrophe, an admission of failure, and yet an indispensable read to grasp most of the plot points. To read Homestuck, one just develops the habit to extrapolate a lot, to keep as many details in mind as humanly possible and to advance without trying to understand everything. In various ways, it's a very challenging read. It's definitely on the same level as (or even above) works such as Evangelion or Lost. Incidentally (or, probably, not-so-incidentally), both suffered an ending which made things worse instead of actually claryfing them...
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 12:38:54 GMT
Personally, I enjoyed Caliborn's final display of PURE ART IMMORTAL SKILL. Truly, a genius. We literally saw the floor under Vriska breaking. What was up with that? Did they all die? Did the dream bubbles cease to exist? Add another unfinished scene to the count. The floor on that dream bubble had been breaking ever since Lord English stepped on it. The dream bubbles (or at least that particular one) were most definitely destroyed with Calliope's black hole, imo - the question is how big the scope of it was. As for Vriska... she might've survived, if the kids were teleported in and lived as well. These things that are still unknown, again, could be easily answered in an epilogue, so I'm still betting on that.
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