cauchemar
Bravesprout
Damn it's good to be back in the game! Hehehehehe! :)
Posts: 89
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by cauchemar on Apr 13, 2016 12:39:28 GMT
I think it's above, both Evangelion or Lost (or Mass Effect 3 which is currently being referred to A LOT on Tumblr ) actually make something clear: if most of our beloved characters make it or not.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 12:44:09 GMT
Seriously, watch the flash again and count the unfinished scenes. Not even unfinished plot points. SCENES. Why showing Vriska raising the weapon if we are not going to see it attacking? What was Aradia about to do? What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is not over. We don't need an epilogue, we need the actual ending. I noticed that too. I could see someone giving up on clearing up previously established loose ends, but if you're not going to do anything more, why make more? Why not show Vriska's attack in its totality? Why not show John at least opening the door? Why show Aradia flying to the black hole that used to be the Green Sun? Why not show the Juju in Caliborn's chest? Muse!Calliope absorbing(?) or destroying(?) the Green Sun makes sense if it's being removed so that Dave and Rose could create it in the black space where it once was....but there wasn't a black hole waiting for them when they got to the right spot. And after what Jade said about the consequences of it being destroyed... Though, I'm not so sure it works like that out in the Furthest Ring, given that what you do tends to stick and doesn't require that you do it again. What does breaking the clock with a crowbar do? This is one of the few things that are actually very clear: the clock has the Time symbol over it, so it's obviously Claiborn's personal death clock; as a god tier, he can only die when the clock says his death his just or heroic. However, by destroying the clock, Caliborn can ensure this judgement never takes place, so his death can't happen. Hence, unconditional immortality. Seriously, I thought that of all things was pretty obvious One thing that confused me about that...since it wasn't the only one given the clock in Doc Scratch's apartment, was it his own personal clock and does that mean everybody has their own? That can't be right, unless Scratch owned Vriska's. Is it the same clock and it just traveled around like the crowbar did? If so, how could that be, considering the first thing Caliborn does on finding it is smash it? Did it come from somewhere else first and just came into possession of Yaldabaoth? If so, from where? I might just be missing something here though.
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 13, 2016 12:51:42 GMT
Well at least I feel marginally vindicated about my guess earlier this week that everybody has their own clock.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 12:54:02 GMT
This is one of the few things that are actually very clear: the clock has the Time symbol over it, so it's obviously Claiborn's personal death clock; as a god tier, he can only die when the clock says his death his just or heroic. However, by destroying the clock, Caliborn can ensure this judgement never takes place, so his death can't happen. Hence, unconditional immortality. Seriously, I thought that of all things was pretty obvious One thing that confused me about that...since it wasn't the only one given the clock in Doc Scratch's apartment, was it his own personal clock and does that mean everybody has their own? That can't be right, unless Scratch owned Vriska's. Is it the same clock and it just traveled around like the crowbar did? If so, how could that be, considering the first thing Caliborn does on finding it is smash it? Did it come from somewhere else first and just came into possession of Yaldabaoth? If so, from where? I might just be missing something here though. I think each god tier player has his/her own clock; it wouldn't make sense to have a single clock for each and every player in Paradox Space, especially if it can be smashed. As for why Vriska's clock ended up in Doc Scratch's hands, I really don't know; but it has probably something to do with him being the First Guardian of their universe, and an omniscient omnipotent bastard at that.
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Post by ezra09 on Apr 13, 2016 12:54:57 GMT
After rewatching it again, I have some more thoughts.
The big red door house is changed to the white one when Vriska activates the juju and a door appears on both. That and the fact that we zoom in on earth and fast forward, then zoom out back to the present moment seems to me to indicate that Caliborn's masterpiece and the current alpha timeline players are all one timeline. Zooming in on the planet shows us the ultimate future, but there's still work for the characters to do to get there, because the white door doesn't lead to the new universe like the red one would have. Whether we'll see the missing time between them opening the white door and ending up on Earth, or whether it'll be left to our imaginations, I don't know.
As for Calliope and the green sun, I'm thinking she collapsed it to make a black hole and moved it to where the army was taking on Lord English. His eyes showing eight balls and him being destined to be defeated by a cue ball makes me think he'll be knocked into the black hole rather than killed conventionally.
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cauchemar
Bravesprout
Damn it's good to be back in the game! Hehehehehe! :)
Posts: 89
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by cauchemar on Apr 13, 2016 12:56:55 GMT
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 13:03:06 GMT
After rewatching it again, I have some more thoughts. The big red door house is changed to the white one when Vriska activates the juju and a door appears on both. That and the fact that we zoom in on earth and fast forward, then zoom out back to the present moment seems to me to indicate that Caliborn's masterpiece and the current alpha timeline players are all one timeline. Zooming in on the planet shows us the ultimate future, but there's still work for the characters to do to get there, because the white door doesn't lead to the new universe like the red one would have. Whether we'll see the missing time between them opening the white door and ending up on Earth, or whether it'll be left to our imaginations, I don't know. As for Calliope and the green sun, I'm thinking she collapsed it to make a black hole and moved it to where the army was taking on Lord English. His eyes showing eight balls and him being destined to be defeated by a cue ball makes me think he'll be knocked into the black hole rather than killed conventionally.
The first point makes a lot of sense (I also already mentioned it); the second... I don't really know, the whole Calliope/Green Sun/black hole thing really could have used some better explanation; we can theorize all we want, but the fact remains, there is a complete lack of explanation for it
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 13:12:49 GMT
The story kept (deliberately) violating two main rules of narration, "Show, don't tell" and "Keep things simple". Hussie just kept piling up characters, species, subplots, planets, universes, eras and timelines, not to mention a mountain of useless details, obtaining an absurd complexity. The flash movies frankly just added to the confusion most of the time. Most of the events happened first and were (painfully and lengthily) explained later. Just think about the godammn RECAPS. They were a catastrophe, an admission of failure, and yet an indispensable read to grasp most of the plot points. To read Homestuck, one just develops the habit to extrapolate a lot, to keep as many details in mind as humanly possible and to advance without trying to understand everything. In various ways, it's a very challenging read. You've just stated what most people would list as the reasons they like Homestuck, including me. While it hasn't always been perfect, I LOVED how complex it was, how it gave us things to talk about, question and figure out. And while it definitely has relied too heavily on exposition fairies at times, (mostly I think because Hussie would come up with a new idea and would have to jerry-rig a place for it in the story and then he'd have to explain it) it has some truly startlingly great moments of 'show not tell', the best of which so far is of course Cascade, which didn't need to be explained at all. Anyway, back to discussing the actual ending instead of what we would have liked it to be; here's the callback to ends all callbacks: Somewhere a zealous god threads these strings between the clouds and the earth, preparing for a symphony it fears impossible to play. And so it threads on, and on, delaying the raise of the conductor's baton. The conductor's baton has been finally raised! (Also, the soundtrack is actually from a Simphony Impossible to Play!) Can I just take a second to say how beautiful Muse!Calliope was in the flash? Because damn.
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 13, 2016 13:24:20 GMT
Since most of the scene changes appear to be straight cuts, when we have a sensible timeline for the video established--maybe after the epilogue is released--we should make a recut ending that is less circumstantially simultaneous and more chronological, easier to understand. I feel like a lot of the pieces to what happened are there--we just don't have enough information yet to put it all together. Like we're building a puzzle without the complete picture on the box top to guide us.
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 13:30:51 GMT
Homestuck IS "a story that is also a puzzle." In retrospect, it only makes sense we as a fandom would have to piece together our own ending.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 13:31:35 GMT
Anyway, back to discussing the actual ending instead of what we would have liked it to be; here's the callback to ends all callbacks: The conductor's baton has been finally raised! (Also, the soundtrack is actually from a Simphony Impossible to Play!) Can I just take a second to say how beautiful Muse!Calliope was in the flash? Because damn. You can. And I wholeheartedly agree.
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Post by sasuke on Apr 13, 2016 13:33:46 GMT
well thats it. iv deleted mspa and r homestuck from my homepage. i have spend a large part of the last 3 years doing homestuck cosplay, and now i feel utterly betrayed. for all the 'homestuck is concluding' hype from hussie yet this is no conclusion. after all the hype for the conclusion for homestuck, and its nothing. no story resolution.
i feel like iv utterly lost my ability to trust. i dont think ill ever be able to read another webcomic (or manga/anime/tv show) after this unless i know going in it has a satisfying ending. no, i will never read another unless i know that.
maybe this seems like an over reaction but iv spend many hundreds of hours working on homestuck cosplays, it was an enormous part of my life, and its just become toxic for me in an instant.
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Post by ezra09 on Apr 13, 2016 13:39:04 GMT
well thats it. iv deleted mspa and r homestuck from my homepage. i have spend a large part of the last 3 years doing homestuck cosplay, and now i feel utterly betrayed. for all the 'homestuck is concluding' hype from hussie yet this is no conclusion. after all the hype for the conclusion for homestuck, and its nothing. no story resolution. i feel like iv utterly lost my ability to trust. i dont think ill ever be able to read another webcomic (or manga/anime/tv show) after this unless i know going in it has a satisfying ending. no, i will never read another unless i know that. maybe this seems like an over reaction but iv spend many hundreds of hours working on homestuck cosplays, it was an enormous part of my life, and its just become toxic for me in an instant. I don't know. Even if the ending wasn't particularly satisfactory (assuming there's nothing more to come, it is still 4/13) I feel like you're too easily discarding the time you spent enjoying the comic. Like the whole "more about the journey than the destination" thing.
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partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
Best Fraymotif
Posts: 126
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 13, 2016 13:42:35 GMT
well thats it. iv deleted mspa and r homestuck from my homepage. i have spend a large part of the last 3 years doing homestuck cosplay, and now i feel utterly betrayed. for all the 'homestuck is concluding' hype from hussie yet this is no conclusion. after all the hype for the conclusion for homestuck, and its nothing. no story resolution. i feel like iv utterly lost my ability to trust. i dont think ill ever be able to read another webcomic (or manga/anime/tv show) after this unless i know going in it has a satisfying ending. no, i will never read another unless i know that. maybe this seems like an over reaction but iv spend many hundreds of hours working on homestuck cosplays, it was an enormous part of my life, and its just become toxic for me in an instant. While I don't quite share your feelings (or maybe it's because I still think this isn't the end), I don't blame you for feeling that way either.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 13, 2016 14:02:39 GMT
So, I'm planning to write up a lost post about how I feel about the ending on my tumblr blog, but one thing I want to emphasize is I highly doubt this is a prank/troll move. I mean Hussie spent a good part of four years planning and working on this ending and all the work that was put into that final animation seems a little extravagant for something meant to be a big joke. I think we should treat this as a serious ending and not act like it's not the ending.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Apr 13, 2016 14:07:02 GMT
well thats it. iv deleted mspa and r homestuck from my homepage. i have spend a large part of the last 3 years doing homestuck cosplay, and now i feel utterly betrayed. for all the 'homestuck is concluding' hype from hussie yet this is no conclusion. after all the hype for the conclusion for homestuck, and its nothing. no story resolution. i feel like iv utterly lost my ability to trust. i dont think ill ever be able to read another webcomic (or manga/anime/tv show) after this unless i know going in it has a satisfying ending. no, i will never read another unless i know that. maybe this seems like an over reaction but iv spend many hundreds of hours working on homestuck cosplays, it was an enormous part of my life, and its just become toxic for me in an instant. No Sasuke, you were one of the few people I enjoyed on these forums! I actually looked forward to your highly sarcastic input on whatever bullshit is happening at the time. Don't leave us now.
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Post by sasuke on Apr 13, 2016 14:21:31 GMT
well thats it. iv deleted mspa and r homestuck from my homepage. i have spend a large part of the last 3 years doing homestuck cosplay, and now i feel utterly betrayed. for all the 'homestuck is concluding' hype from hussie yet this is no conclusion. after all the hype for the conclusion for homestuck, and its nothing. no story resolution. i feel like iv utterly lost my ability to trust. i dont think ill ever be able to read another webcomic (or manga/anime/tv show) after this unless i know going in it has a satisfying ending. no, i will never read another unless i know that. maybe this seems like an over reaction but iv spend many hundreds of hours working on homestuck cosplays, it was an enormous part of my life, and its just become toxic for me in an instant. No Sasuke, you were one of the few people I enjoyed on these forums! I actually looked forward to your highly sarcastic input on whatever bullshit is happening at the time. Don't leave us now. dont worry ill leave these forums on my homepage and keep wallowing in despair with you guys!
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Apr 13, 2016 14:23:04 GMT
No Sasuke, you were one of the few people I enjoyed on these forums! I actually looked forward to your highly sarcastic input on whatever bullshit is happening at the time. Don't leave us now. dont worry ill leave these forums on my homepage and keep wallowing in despair with you guys! fuck yes thank you
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Post by scarodactyl on Apr 13, 2016 14:36:30 GMT
a little extravagant for something meant to be a big joke. Hussie may have leveled out a bit over the years, dropped a lot of the shock humor, stopped working quite such ridiculous hours and probably developed a slightly more healthy social life. But he's still Hussie. Whether it is a fakeout or not remains to be seen, but having such a ridiculously elaborate setup for a joke like this would be 100% congruent with what we've seen him do in the past.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 14:45:21 GMT
So, I'm planning to write up a lost post about how I feel about the ending on my tumblr blog, but one thing I want to emphasize is I highly doubt this is a prank/troll move. I mean Hussie spent a good part of four years planning and working on this ending and all the work that was put into that final animation seems a little extravagant for something meant to be a big joke. I think we should treat this as a serious ending and not act like it's not the ending. Hussie may have leveled out a bit over the years, dropped a lot of the shock humor, stopped working quite such ridiculous hours and probably developed a slightly more healthy social life. But he's still Hussie. Whether it is a fakeout or not remains to be seen, but having such a ridiculously elaborate setup for a joke like this would be 100% congruent with what we've seen him do in the past. This....and I mean, it wouldn't be a JOKE, exactly, depending on how he goes about it. It'd be more like a really big set up for some dramatic moment in the story. And it's like you said, therationaldove, Hussie came up with this four years ago, when he was even more of a troll than he is now.
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researcherwisemon
MOB1US DOUBL3 R34CH4ROUND
*Swooshy Energy Sounds*
Posts: 502
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by researcherwisemon on Apr 13, 2016 14:45:47 GMT
...
Three things to say while bfore I can process this whole flash...
One: AWESOME artwork.
Two: Hussie is the master Troll. it is him
Three: We basically just watched a Frog being born in glorious High Definition. XD
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Post by scarodactyl on Apr 13, 2016 15:01:25 GMT
Yeah, I really wish I were just talking about how gobsmackingly beautiful that animation was. Because it really was! That took things to a level I had never expected and caught me completely off guard. The fact that it's the same person who did A Lullaby for Gods is even better. Having that pay off in such a big way, for the animator personally and for us in general, is almost its own little metaplot.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 15:19:41 GMT
The animation can be good all the way, I don't feel like talking about its details or watching it again because of how fucking bad of an ending it is. Art and music are useless if it's not backed by good writing.
The only thing stopping me from going full ragequit mode is the belief that this is a Psyche of sorts.
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 15:24:30 GMT
Seeing this post about Act 7, I'm growing to like it even more as an actual ending. There's definitely stuff still left to be answered, but since we still have the prologue... yeah. I can say I like that theme.
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Post by melonlord on Apr 13, 2016 15:26:08 GMT
Homestuck IS "a story that is also a puzzle." In retrospect, it only makes sense we as a fandom would have to piece together our own ending. I mean...this is going to sound incredibly bitter, but if I wanted to write fanfiction, I'd sign up for an AO3 account. Not resolving the basic plotline of a story is just bad writing, in my opinion. One could make the argument that it was intentionally bad, in order to force the reader to connect the dots and come up with their own headcanons to fill in the gaps between the disconnected plot points, but that doesn't change the fact that it's bad writing. It certainly doesn't reflect the rest of homestuck, which, to me, seemed to be more about various puzzle pieces falling into place rather than dumping the pieces on the floor and saying "here ya go." I mean, compare this with Cascade, which tied together several intertwined plotlines at once, brought in and used a lot of elements we had forgotten about but were clearly planned (the fourth wall, the uranium in WV's gut), and had a twist which defied expectations but nonetheless still fit perfectly with everything that had been said so far. Act 7 barely resolved one main plotline and left the other almost completely out to dry, discarded a lot of elements that seemed rather important (I guess Davepetasprite's grand ultimate purpose was to make an undertale reference), didn't do anything that wasn't spoiled to us already by Vriska and Alt Calliope, yet still left us with more questions than answers.
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