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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 11:31:42 GMT
Then the climax of Homestuck is Collide. /thread.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 7, 2016 11:51:43 GMT
I still don't see how Collide doesn't fit as the actual climax of the story. It is the last peak of action, with all the villains being fought in battle and is the resolution of all the conflicts in the B2 session plus Caliborn's session, with the Lord English conflict being the only one unresolved out of 6 conflicts (8 even, if you count the Cans and Clover conflicts separately). To me, I almost couldn't have wished for a better climax than this. Lord English not being defeated on-screen was hardly a surprise, many of us had been predicting that for years, and we even got closer to actually seeing it happen than I originally could have dared to hope for. And while in Act 7 itself I was pretty surprised when it was suddenly cut off, in retrospect it makes a lot of sense to me that a character who bends the story to his will is, from a meta perspective, 'defeated' by ending the story itself. Heck we even have the author of the comic give him a thumbs down just before the story ends. Climaxes aren't just about fights happening. They are about resolution. Even in the fighting sense there's a lot less resolution that it seems: The actual antagonist is not defeated, many of the minor villains who should have been defeated weren't(The Felt and B1!Jack), some people were defeated when they really shouldn't have been(Spades Slick and )(IC) and many potential threats are just outright ignored/forgotten(Gamzee, Kurloz, Aranea) But besides the fighting sense, there's many other forms of resolution that didn't happen. Character resolution for one thing. Sure, it's hard to put that in the actual fight itself in Homestuck's format, but even loosening the definition and taking the sections either side of Collide there's still bugger all. Outside of the Striders, just about everyone either A) maintained their long standing tradition of having a very static character(John, Jade), B) were left with major problems unresolved(Jake, Karkat), or were left on a really weird note where it seemed like resolution was right around the corner but didn't come(Terezi). Another sense in which there should've been resolution, but wasn't, was the resolution of various plot threads. Homestuck had a well deserved reputation for having very brief scenes that took a great big handful of outstanding plot threads and tying them into a neat bow, and in the run up to Collide, we still had many of those threads, but nothing came of it. )(IC's immortality curse was completely dropped. The hint of meteor shenanigans* was dropped. Terezi's whole Mindy thing was dropped. And that's just ones related to the actual fight. There's always the buttload of bigger threads that the ending in general didn't address. One more gripe that we may have about Collide is that, all things considered, the Fighting was actually rather sloppy and inappropriate for many of the characters. It was pretty much just 18 minutes of people hyperactively throwing themselves at each other. While it makes for a visual spectacle, it goes against many character's actual style. Take Rose for instance: She's a Seer, which we've been explicitly told is not a in-the-fray sort, but a tactical overseer. Yet how did Rose fight in Collide? Well, she shot a laser at someone, then she shot a bigger laser at someone, then she did a fraymotif which, wait for it, made a bunch of lasers happen. And to put the icing on the cake, all of this happens after we are both shown and told from Game Over why Rose shouldn't be charging into battle. Similar arguments could be made for pretty much any other character and their fighting style. Also, I like to think that I've been fairly active in the community for the whole time I've been around(Late 2013) and I have never seen anyone seriously speculate that English wouldn't be defeated on screen. There were maybe a handful who had ideas along the 'escape the story' line, but they were A) a minority and B) they never based that idea on the undefeatability of Lord English nor said that he wouldn't be defeated on screen. *Remember that the B2 Session still needed to get their Frog Temple through a Portal in lieu of a proper Reckoning happening. A fight scene involving an angry telekinetic with a history of throwing celestial bodies around would've been perfect to both end that thread and spice up the fight.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 12:02:48 GMT
Climaxes aren't just about fights happening. They are about resolution. No, they're not. Climax has nothing to do with resolution. It is described as the highest point of tension or drama in a narratives’ plot.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 7, 2016 14:15:16 GMT
Climaxes aren't just about fights happening. They are about resolution. No, they're not. Climax has nothing to do with resolution. It is described as the highest point of tension or drama in a narratives’ plot. Dictionary.com would seem to disagree (bold added, all italics in original): climax, n. 1. the highest or most intense point in the development or resolution of something; culmination: His career reached its climax when he was elected president.2. (in a dramatic or literary work) a decisive moment that is of maximum intensity or is a major turning point in a plot. 3. Rhetoric. a) a figure consisting of a series of related ideas so arranged that each surpasses the preceding in force or intensity. b) the last term or member of this figure. 4. an orgasm. 5. Ecology. the stable and self-perpetuating end stage in the ecological succession or evolution of a plant and animal community. Points 3-5 have nothing to do with the subject at hand, I just included them for completeness. The climax is where the central or highest-order problem is, in fact, resolved. For example, in Harry Potter, the ultimate climax of the whole, multi-volume arc is Harry's fight with Voldemort; in the broad sense, one can say that the Battle of Hogwarts is the climax, but the true moment of climax--both the point of highest tension, and the point around which resolution occurs, is their duel. The result of that fight--Harry triumphant, Voldemort dead--is, in truth, the ultimate resolution of the tension in all the seven volumes up to that point. Everything else is merely that event's trickle-down consequences. Once the battle is won--is resolved--everything else is the denouement, the wrap-up. (Modern stories tend to add an earlier "negative mirror" of the climax as well--the "belly of the whale" moment, where the protagonist hits rock bottom and must struggle on even when everything is totally bleak, and in so doing, finding the strength that will be needed to overcome the ultimate problem and return triumphant.) Then the climax of Homestuck is Collide. /thread. If that were the case, why did the biggest conflict in Homestuck fail to finish in Collide? We see the start of the Lord English fight--but the point of highest tension there occurs after the Act 7 flash ends. It's only in the Act 7 flash that the weapon is deployed, and it's only in the Act 7 flash that GT!Calliope deals with the Green Sun, or Retcon!Vriska stands in defiance in front of the army; and yet we do not actually see the tension resolved. Hell, we don't even know if the kids can win the game yet; The Condesce is supposed to be "The Dragon" in TVTropes terms (the ultimate Big Bad's right-hand helper), not the climactic final battle. That peak is, in fact, left completely to our imagination. It would be like Joanne Rowling giving us everything in Deathly Hallows up to the point of Harry and Voldemort about to cast their spells, and then suddenly stopping the narrative there, only to show Severus Potter getting on the Hogwarts train after. (Even that is inaccurate, though, as Severus Potter probably couldn't be born if Voldemort had won that fight.) The climax clearly occurs...but it occurs off-screen, which is unconscionable.
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Post by loading on Aug 7, 2016 15:01:29 GMT
Well it's clearly Toby Fox's fault. If he had been able to extend Overture even more, we would have seen that. But he was too busy with Undertale instead.
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Post by heyitskane on Aug 7, 2016 15:08:03 GMT
4 is relevant for fanfiction
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 15:13:42 GMT
That's why I suggested that's there multiple climaxes earlier to start up a conversation about it but you don't seem to interested. At this point no answer is going to satisfy you anyway so I don't see the need to continue on this conversation.
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Post by ashercrane on Aug 7, 2016 16:48:04 GMT
Realistically, a lot, (and, I speculate based on what I've seen, potentially most) people don't see it as being resolved, and therefore as having no climax/resolution. Or at least a broken one.
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Post by Blaperile on Aug 8, 2016 13:46:14 GMT
Climaxes aren't just about fights happening. They are about resolution. The definitions on "climax" that I find state that its main characteristic is that it's the highest point of tension and drama, which Collide still is. Not a single scene in Homestuck has so much buildup to it than this. I mean, between the 28th of March and the 6th of April we literally got nothing but build-up to all those confrontations. If you do want to bring resolution into this, we still get the resolution of all of the most important conflicts in the B2 session in just this one flash. Other resolutions of character (e.g. Dave & Dirk), themes (e.g. ultimate self), or the main goal of the story (creating a new universe) all happen shortly before or after it as well. Climaxes aren't just about fights happening. They are about resolution. Even in the fighting sense there's a lot less resolution that it seems: The actual antagonist is not defeated, many of the minor villains who should have been defeated weren't(The Felt and B1!Jack), some people were defeated when they really shouldn't have been(Spades Slick and )(IC) and many potential threats are just outright ignored/forgotten(Gamzee, Kurloz, Aranea) Lord English is only the actual antagonist in that he's the "bigger bad" and had been manipulating so many events in the background. But he was never actually the main on-screen antagonist. Bec Noir, The Felt, B2 Jack and The Condesce all fit in that role much more. Lord English himself even only appears in just a few dozen pages in the comic. Aranea isn't ignored/forgotten if she actually double died at the end of the GO timeline. And Gamzee is 'dealt with' in the Masterpiece. But besides the fighting sense, there's many other forms of resolution that didn't happen. Character resolution for one thing. Sure, it's hard to put that in the actual fight itself in Homestuck's format, but even loosening the definition and taking the sections either side of Collide there's still bugger all. Outside of the Striders, just about everyone either A) maintained their long standing tradition of having a very static character(John, Jade) I don't see how John is a static character, at all. If you compare him in Act 1 and him at the end of the comic, he has grown a lot. He didn't just grow stronger physically (before even gaining God Tier powers), his entire mental depiction of his father changed, he learned not to just blindly trust anyone he talks to (such as Terezi and Vriska), he started questioning his former interests (Con Air), he learned how to take responsibility, he learned how to be creative, he becomes much less silly and more serious and sometimes even angry over time, he learned to really think twice before doing something and not just take orders without second thought (such as bringing the Ring of Life to Vriska). I think John's grown just as much, if not more, than Rose, Dave, Jade, Jane, Jake, Karkat and Terezi. B) were left with major problems unresolved(Jake, Karkat) Which is implied they had overcome by defeating The Felt, for the first time in forever actually being happy. )(IC's immortality curse was completely dropped. As far as I'm aware nothing in canon states it's automatically passed on when the previous holder of the curse is killed. It just so happened that The Condesce was cursed just after she'd killed The Handmaid. So, I don't think anything about it was dropped. The hint of meteor shenanigans* was dropped. *Remember that the B2 Session still needed to get their Frog Temple through a Portal in lieu of a proper Reckoning happening. A fight scene involving an angry telekinetic with a history of throwing celestial bodies around would've been perfect to both end that thread and spice up the fight. Perhaps GCat launched the meteor itself after it was created. Terezi's whole Mindy thing was dropped There wasn't really much room for it to come up anymore after it happened. She only had a very short dialogue with Dave, Dirk and Jade afterwards, in which they had other things to focus on. I think this is exactly the kind of thing Andrew wants to leave ambiguous so that we can guess ourselves what the results of it were, unless it's brought up in the Epilogue. One more gripe that we may have about Collide is that, all things considered, the Fighting was actually rather sloppy and inappropriate for many of the characters. It was pretty much just 18 minutes of people hyperactively throwing themselves at each other. While it makes for a visual spectacle, it goes against many character's actual style. Take Rose for instance: She's a Seer, which we've been explicitly told is not a in-the-fray sort, but a tactical overseer. Yet how did Rose fight in Collide? Well, she shot a laser at someone, then she shot a bigger laser at someone, then she did a fraymotif which, wait for it, made a bunch of lasers happen. And to put the icing on the cake, all of this happens after we are both shown and told from Game Over why Rose shouldn't be charging into battle. Similar arguments could be made for pretty much any other character and their fighting style. Rose has never fought differently than this before. It's exactly her style. Look at her fighting against the Underlings, Bec Noir, in the Game Over timeline, Jasprosesprite^2 in Collide, or even B2 Rose against Guy Fieri. I don't see too much difference. It's just her style of battling. I don't think Game Over is an argument that she shouldn't charge into battle. It was the circumstances that got her killed, she's more than capable of handling a fight. Also, they needed to do everything they could to keep the Condesce busy. If they'd had one less fighter, who knows how things could have turned out. Also, I personally think the fighting styles of everyone was handled in a great way in Collide, not just Rose. Jade isn't too much of a fighting type and she was explicitly told by Alternate Calliope to have fun, so she did that instead of fighting, instead using her powers in a creative way to try and stop Bec Noir and PM from fighting. Arquiusprite, Dad and Cans are all about using brute force, which they did here as well. Clover is confident that he won't be hit by anything, so he dodges all attacks on him. Crowbar uses his brains to not get into dumb situations and instead strike when he can, unlike the other Felt members. I really don't see anyone doing anything we couldn't have expected them to do. Also, I like to think that I've been fairly active in the community for the whole time I've been around(Late 2013) and I have never seen anyone seriously speculate that English wouldn't be defeated on screen. There were maybe a handful who had ideas along the 'escape the story' line, but they were A) a minority and B) they never based that idea on the undefeatability of Lord English nor said that he wouldn't be defeated on screen. Well, I've been around since late 2010 and before Lord English was formally shown on-screen I remember a lot of people considering we might never even see him at all. And even after he did show up, I hardly ever saw people mention in Comic Discussion the possibility of him being fought until the ghosts began making concrete plans to fight him. I think that's about the first time I saw people actually seriously considering that we might see the heroes fight him. (Modern stories tend to add an earlier "negative mirror" of the climax as well--the "belly of the whale" moment, where the protagonist hits rock bottom and must struggle on even when everything is totally bleak, and in so doing, finding the strength that will be needed to overcome the ultimate problem and return triumphant.) Which is exactly what happens in the middle of Collide: the heroes hit rock bottom and must struggle on when everything is totally bleak, and in so doing, finding the strength that will be needed to overcome the ultimate problem and return triumphant. Their ultimate problem at that point is not Lord English (for the people in the B2 session). The ultimate problem is all the villains that are standing in their way of entering their new universe and living in freedom afterwards. If that were the case, why did the biggest conflict in Homestuck fail to finish in Collide? We see the start of the Lord English fight--but the point of highest tension there occurs after the Act 7 flash ends. It's only in the Act 7 flash that the weapon is deployed, and it's only in the Act 7 flash that GT!Calliope deals with the Green Sun, or Retcon!Vriska stands in defiance in front of the army; and yet we do not actually see the tension resolved. Hell, we don't even know if the kids can win the game yet; The Condesce is supposed to be "The Dragon" in TVTropes terms (the ultimate Big Bad's right-hand helper), not the climactic final battle. That peak is, in fact, left completely to our imagination. It would be like Joanne Rowling giving us everything in Deathly Hallows up to the point of Harry and Voldemort about to cast their spells, and then suddenly stopping the narrative there, only to show Severus Potter getting on the Hogwarts train after. (Even that is inaccurate, though, as Severus Potter probably couldn't be born if Voldemort had won that fight.) The climax clearly occurs...but it occurs off-screen, which is unconscionable. Which is only the case if you believe the Lord English fight to be the "biggest conflict", when in fact at that point it's only the biggest conflict for a handful of characters: Vriska, Tavros, Aradia, Meenah, Davepetasprite^2, Sollux, Andrew Hussie, and a bunch of other less relevant ghosts. These characters are definitely not the main characters in Homestuck, Vriska being the only exception. The main characters are the B1 Kids, the B2 Kids, Karkat, Terezi, Kanaya, WV, Calliope and Caliborn. The focus of this story has always mainly been on these characters, so it stands to reason the trials and conflicts they face are more important to see happen than the ones they do not face.
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Post by melonlord on Aug 8, 2016 15:22:07 GMT
If that were the case, why did the biggest conflict in Homestuck fail to finish in Collide? We see the start of the Lord English fight--but the point of highest tension there occurs after the Act 7 flash ends. It's only in the Act 7 flash that the weapon is deployed, and it's only in the Act 7 flash that GT!Calliope deals with the Green Sun, or Retcon!Vriska stands in defiance in front of the army; and yet we do not actually see the tension resolved. Hell, we don't even know if the kids can win the game yet; The Condesce is supposed to be "The Dragon" in TVTropes terms (the ultimate Big Bad's right-hand helper), not the climactic final battle. That peak is, in fact, left completely to our imagination. It would be like Joanne Rowling giving us everything in Deathly Hallows up to the point of Harry and Voldemort about to cast their spells, and then suddenly stopping the narrative there, only to show Severus Potter getting on the Hogwarts train after. (Even that is inaccurate, though, as Severus Potter probably couldn't be born if Voldemort had won that fight.) The climax clearly occurs...but it occurs off-screen, which is unconscionable. Which is only the case if you believe the Lord English fight to be the "biggest conflict", when in fact at that point it's only the biggest conflict for a handful of characters: Vriska, Tavros, Aradia, Meenah, Davepetasprite^2, Sollux, Andrew Hussie, and a bunch of other less relevant ghosts. These characters are definitely not the main characters in Homestuck, Vriska being the only exception. The main characters are the B1 Kids, the B2 Kids, Karkat, Terezi, Kanaya, WV, Calliope and Caliborn. The focus of this story has always mainly been on these characters, so it stands to reason the trials and conflicts they face are more important to see happen than the ones they do not face. I think you're understating Lord English's importance here. He is the most powerful being in the multiverse, responsible for the deaths of countless universes and the direct or indirect cause of almost every bad thing that happens to the heroes for the entire comic. He caused/created all of the bosses that the kids fight in Collide. Putting LE's death/trapping/pocketing/whatever offscreen is definitely an anticlimax. It could be a purposeful anticlimax with some narrative purpose, sure, but it's definitely an intentional denial of something built up as important. This isn't some sub-boss for the side characters to handle, he's the closest thing to God the comic has.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 8, 2016 15:42:58 GMT
he's the closest thing to God the comic has. Not to invalidate your overall point, but Homestuck is a story full of people who have created universes, people literally going "god-tier" with appropriate powers, Denizens of great power who hold knowledge of all possibilities and realities and persist to be reincarnated even after being killed, Horrorterrors of unfathomable knowledge and power, a "crucible of unlimited creative potential" which seems in some sense to have a will, an author writing up the very reality he exists in, and Nic Cage, and you're saying Lord English is "the closest thing to God the comic has?"
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 8, 2016 16:07:31 GMT
It shouldn't matter that Lord English's main influence has been off-screen. That's extremely common in many stories. The main characters face a bunch of adversities and enemies, and eventually discover that there's a mysterious "Big Bad" behind it all, someone who has never directly fought them, who has just been controlling things and making their lives miserable from an unseen position of power. It would be considered extremely anticlimactic in any story for the protagonists to just kill off some of this Big Bad's underlings without even confronting the Big Bad himself. For example, in a series I used to read called Gone, the main antagonist is a practically immortal green alien with all kinds of powers (like LE). There isn't even much of a hint that this antagonist even exists until the second book. It lives underground, and very few of the main characters even see it during the entire series. But it is always unmistakably the main villain, despite the "lesser" villains the protagonists focus on for a large portion of the series, because the author makes it clear that this Big Bad is behind all of the other problems the protagonists are trying to deal with. And it is (spoilers) confronted and destroyed during the climax of the final book. he's the closest thing to God the comic has. Not to invalidate your overall point, but Homestuck is a story full of people who have created universes, people literally going "god-tier" with appropriate powers, Denizens of great power who hold knowledge of all possibilities and realities and persist to be reincarnated even after being killed, Horrorterrors of unfathomable knowledge and power, a "crucible of unlimited creative potential" which seems in some sense to have a will, an author writing up the very reality he exists in, and Nic Cage, and you're saying Lord English is "the closest thing to God the comic has?" But Lord English can permanently incinerate any of those beings you listed in half a second.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 8, 2016 17:05:12 GMT
Not to invalidate your overall point, but Homestuck is a story full of people who have created universes, people literally going "god-tier" with appropriate powers, Denizens of great power who hold knowledge of all possibilities and realities and persist to be reincarnated even after being killed, Horrorterrors of unfathomable knowledge and power, a "crucible of unlimited creative potential" which seems in some sense to have a will, an author writing up the very reality he exists in, and Nic Cage, and you're saying Lord English is "the closest thing to God the comic has?" But Lord English can permanently incinerate any of those beings you listed in half a second. Not the Denizens. In any case my point wasn't that LE is less powerful than these, but rather that he's hardly the only being that could be considered godlike.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 8, 2016 18:38:45 GMT
But Lord English can permanently incinerate any of those beings you listed in half a second. Not the Denizens. In any case my point wasn't that LE is less powerful than these, but rather that he's hardly the only being that could be considered godlike. Denizens aren't that hard to kill. Most if not all of the trolls killed theirs. They don't resurrect, there's just copies of them in multiple sessions. True, a lot of entities in Homestuck have god-like qualities, but I think LE is the only one who possesses all of the qualities: he is a universal (actually, multiuniversal) guiding influence behind all events, he (or at least Doc Scratch) is practically omniscient, he is responsible for the creation of universes, and he invincible and immensely powerful.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 8, 2016 19:10:13 GMT
But Lord English can permanently incinerate any of those beings you listed in half a second. Not the Denizens. Do we actually know that?
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 8, 2016 19:55:15 GMT
Not the Denizens. In any case my point wasn't that LE is less powerful than these, but rather that he's hardly the only being that could be considered godlike. Denizens aren't that hard to kill. Most if not all of the trolls killed theirs. They don't resurrect, there's just copies of them in multiple sessions. I guess it comes down to whether you think the various copies are instances of a single entity or seporate identical beings. No real way to know for sure, I suppose. True, a lot of entities in Homestuck have god-like qualities, but I think LE is the only one who possesses all of the qualities: he is a universal (actually, multiuniversal) guiding influence behind all events, he (or at least Doc Scratch) is practically omniscient, he is responsible for the creation of universes, and he invincible and immensely powerful. I wouldn't call him a guiding influence behind all events, just a lot of important events, and he's not a nessesary component; he's more of a paraside leaching off of an existing system of creating universes than he is on who actually creates universes. Do we actually know that? Well no, but we've seen no indication that he's be able to do so.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 8, 2016 22:04:22 GMT
Aranea isn't ignored/forgotten if she actually double died at the end of the GO timeline. But the comic never established that. More importantly, the characters never established that, they just assumed that the very powerful person who utterly handed their asses to them would never bother them again because they shut down one particular plan of hers. Was he? He was locked in a fridge, but that fridge took a hell of a beating during the fight, so I wouldn't rely on its ability to hold anyone. Plus, everyone just lost track of him entirely. He seemed to go down with union jack, but half the people here reckon that Union jack's death made some sort of wormhole, so who knows where Gamzee his. Seeing someone who is an entire trainwreck of personal problems smile once is hardly convincing proof that all his problems are solved now. Besides that, all the buildup to Collide had us believe that karkat's strenght should not be in fighting but in leading, so why should we suddenly be okay with fighting being the solution to his problems? )(IC had a curse that made her unkillable. )(IC was killed. Something is wrong with that picture. The fact that we have to fill in so many gaps with completely speculative 'maybes' should be proof enough that this isn't a good climax. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi, the Super Star Destroyer is seen on one shot beating the crap out of the Rebel fleet, but then in the next shot its gone and the Rebels are doing much better. 'Maybe the Rebels found some clever way to take down that massive threat off screen". Maybe they did, but they should've shown us that, so that we may appreciate Arvel Crynyd's heroism and quick thinking and see more of the Space Battle that makes that movie so good(among other things). The lack of time is entirely up to Hussie though. He chose not to have additional dialogue that helped us understand what was happening.
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Post by ashercrane on Aug 8, 2016 22:25:43 GMT
Seeing someone who is an entire trainwreck of personal problems smile once is hardly convincing proof that all his problems are solved now. Besides that, all the buildup to Collide had us believe that karkat's strenght should not be in fighting but in leading, so why should we suddenly be okay with fighting being the solution to his problems? And Jake's defeating the felt doesn't really solve anything, as the problem he had an epiphany about was more with relation to the fact that he was so focused on himself he didn't see Jane's affections for him. The below metaphor with the super star destroyer would really be apt for this one, Because we see he has a problem, we see him doing something completely unrelated, and suddenly, he's off playing soccer with Dirk, having no real resolution to his focusing on himself too much. Well, it's possible that Roxy allowed Void to steal the curse or something, but like below, speculation. I'm just leaving this here because I planned my post poorly, and without it the other two replies make no sense.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Aug 11, 2016 13:16:29 GMT
About HIC's immortality curse: I was under the impression that it just made her immune to aging, not that it made her unkillable.
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loading
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Post by loading on Aug 11, 2016 13:20:03 GMT
Hm. Wasn't Damara cursed at a relatively early stage in her life, though?
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 11, 2016 22:07:23 GMT
About HIC's immortality curse: I was under the impression that it just made her immune to aging, not that it made her unkillable. In addition to Loading's point, Damara tried to commit suicide multiple times with no success. So I'm pretty sure that the Curse does more than just prevent a natural death.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 12, 2016 10:56:12 GMT
Do we actually know that? Well no, but we've seen no indication that he's be able to do so. No indication he'd able to do so ≠ he's not able to do so. For the record.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 12, 2016 14:45:00 GMT
Well no, but we've seen no indication that he's be able to do so. No indication he'd able to do so ≠ he's not able to do so. For the record. True, but for him to be able to do so he'd have to have powers he's never been shown to have.
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Post by melonlord on Aug 12, 2016 15:06:37 GMT
No indication he'd able to do so ≠ he's not able to do so. For the record. True, but for him to be able to do so he'd have to have powers he's never been shown to have. Not really, his already-shown martial skill would be more than enough to kill a Denizen. The trolls killed theirs, and Lord English is vastly more powerful than them. Heck, Caliborn killed his before he became Lord English; why would merging with three other souls and becoming a massive, invulnerable skull monster with lasers make him LESS capable of murdering a Denizen?
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 12, 2016 17:22:01 GMT
Denizens aren't that hard to kill. Most if not all of the trolls killed theirs. They don't resurrect, there's just copies of them in multiple sessions. I guess it comes down to whether you think the various copies are instances of a single entity or seporate identical beings. No real way to know for sure, I suppose. I doubt he can kill every instance of a denizen out there just because there's so many of them, but you wouldn't normally say a character is invulnerable just because there's other instances of them out there, because that's true of any character. True, a lot of entities in Homestuck have god-like qualities, but I think LE is the only one who possesses all of the qualities: he is a universal (actually, multiuniversal) guiding influence behind all events, he (or at least Doc Scratch) is practically omniscient, he is responsible for the creation of universes, and he invincible and immensely powerful. I wouldn't call him a guiding influence behind all events, just a lot of important events, and he's not a nessesary component; he's more of a paraside leaching off of an existing system of creating universes than he is on who actually creates universes. If you influence important events, your influence spreads to every "lesser" event. Especially in Homestuck, where the future influences the past, and influence easily spreads from one universe to others. You can take any arbitrary event in Homestuck and find a convoluted way to show how, without Lord English's influence, it never would have happened. I don't know if he's an essential component for the process of universe creation in general, but he was essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon.
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