The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 12, 2016 17:37:17 GMT
True, but for him to be able to do so he'd have to have powers he's never been shown to have. Not really, his already-shown martial skill would be more than enough to kill a Denizen. The trolls killed theirs, and Lord English is vastly more powerful than them. Heck, Caliborn killed his before he became Lord English; why would merging with three other souls and becoming a massive, invulnerable skull monster with lasers make him LESS capable of murdering a Denizen? Because the denizens have a similar sort of immortality as whatmany think Lord English has: Even if you kill one instance of them they still exist in the form of countless copies of themselves. I guess it comes down to whether you think the various copies are instances of a single entity or seporate identical beings. No real way to know for sure, I suppose. I doubt he can kill every instance of a denizen out there just because there's so many of them, but you wouldn't normally say a character is invulnerable just because there's other instances of them out there, because that's true of any character. Yes, but there's many ways in which each instance of them could be considered just one body of the same being. I wouldn't call him a guiding influence behind all events, just a lot of important events, and he's not a nessesary component; he's more of a paraside leaching off of an existing system of creating universes than he is on who actually creates universes. If you influence important events, your influence spreads to every "lesser" event. Especially in Homestuck, where the future influences the past, and influence easily spreads from one universe to others. You can take any arbitrary event in Homestuck and find a convoluted way to show how, without Lord English's influence, it never would have happened. I don't know if he's an essential component for the process of universe creation in general, but he was essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon. But by that logic, wouldn't everyone be considered "essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon?"
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 12, 2016 19:38:09 GMT
I doubt he can kill every instance of a denizen out there just because there's so many of them, but you wouldn't normally say a character is invulnerable just because there's other instances of them out there, because that's true of any character. Yes, but there's many ways in which each instance of them could be considered just one body of the same being. We know that denizens are aware of other instances of themselves, but I don't think we don't have any reason to believe that it's really one mind controlling a potentially infinite number of identical bodies at once. I think it's more like if all versions of Terezi could "Remember" all other versions of herself. It'd be a great advantage, but I wouldn't say it would make her invincible. I'd think that the fact that all denizens share some mysterious information source would make them very similar to each other, but they do all have their own unique situations to deal with. If you influence important events, your influence spreads to every "lesser" event. Especially in Homestuck, where the future influences the past, and influence easily spreads from one universe to others. You can take any arbitrary event in Homestuck and find a convoluted way to show how, without Lord English's influence, it never would have happened. I don't know if he's an essential component for the process of universe creation in general, but he was essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon. But by that logic, wouldn't everyone be considered "essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon?" The difference is that Lord English plans his actions, knowing what will happen as a result, causality even bending to his will as a Lord of Time to make what he wants to happen, happen.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Aug 12, 2016 19:51:29 GMT
Yes, but there's many ways in which each instance of them could be considered just one body of the same being. We know that denizens are aware of other instances of themselves, but I don't think we don't have any reason to believe that it's really one mind controlling a potentially infinite number of identical bodies at once. I think it's more like if all versions of Terezi could "Remember" all other versions of herself. It'd be a great advantage, but I wouldn't say it would make her invincible. I'd think that the fact that all denizens share some mysterious information source would make them very similar to each other, but they do all have their own unique situations to deal with. Well, if you have a new instance of a being with the same mind and even the same memories, can it really be said to be a different being? It's similar to the old Ship of Theseus question (if you replace all the wood in a ship is it still the same ship?); it depends on how you look at it. But by that logic, wouldn't everyone be considered "essential to the creation of just about every universe and session that we've seen in canon?" The difference is that Lord English plans his actions, knowing what will happen as a result, causality even bending to his will as a Lord of Time to make what he wants to happen, happen. Well, fair enough I suppose.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 13, 2016 16:12:48 GMT
Well, if you have a new instance of a being with the same mind and even the same memories, can it really be said to be a different being? It's similar to the old Ship of Theseus question (if you replace all the wood in a ship is it still the same ship?); it depends on how you look at it. I think it was said that the Denizens all get their knowledge from the same source of "unlimited creative potential" that Skaia does. So if knowing all of the same things makes different versions of a being one unified entity, I guess it could also be said that all denizens as well as all Skaias are really one unified entity. Sburb's "ultimate self" if you will. Any individual body can be destroyed, but I don't think anybody could wipe out the entire multiuniversal being. Unless Calliope's black hole really destroys all of Paradox Space I guess. I wish Homestuck had touched more on these mysterious universal forces like the source of unlimited creative potential, the clockwork majyyks, the horrorterrors, the aspects, the blank space, and the authorship of the story. Knowing more about them would probably help to explain a lot of things. I think it would have been really cool if these things had all been elaborated on and connected together in a relevant and plot-twisty way during Homestuck's climax (see, we're on topic).
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 14, 2016 8:34:18 GMT
Not really, his already-shown martial skill would be more than enough to kill a Denizen. The trolls killed theirs, and Lord English is vastly more powerful than them. Heck, Caliborn killed his before he became Lord English; why would merging with three other souls and becoming a massive, invulnerable skull monster with lasers make him LESS capable of murdering a Denizen? Because the denizens have a similar sort of immortality as whatmany think Lord English has: Even if you kill one instance of them they still exist in the form of countless copies of themselves. I guess it comes down to whether you think the various copies are instances of a single entity or seporate identical beings. No real way to know for sure, I suppose. I doubt he can kill every instance of a denizen out there just because there's so many of them, but you wouldn't normally say a character is invulnerable just because there's other instances of them out there, because that's true of any character. I don't really have strong feeling about this either way, but he does have the power to kill ghosts, and Meenah (for whatever her testimony is worth) says his powers can bypass the God Tier clock that presides over whether a player dies permanently or revives. I don't know if English has it, but a power that can kill every instance of a Denizen doesn't sound incredibly far fetched to me.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 14, 2016 9:27:20 GMT
I don't really have strong feeling about this either way, but he does have the power to kill ghosts, and Meenah (for whatever her testimony is worth) says his powers can bypass the God Tier clock that presides over whether a player dies permanently or revives. I don't know if English has it, but a power that can kill every instance of a Denizen doesn't sound incredibly far fetched to me. For my part, that *does* sound rather far-fetched, if only because killing every instance of a Denizen forever seems like a super fast way to break Sburb forever. You can't win the game without them; either you talk with them and get your Choice, or you kill them and cause the release of their hoard. But if you have neither of those things, how can you win the game? You *need* the grist they provide, willingly or unwillingly, in order to give Skaia the materials it needs to feed the Genesis Tadpole's growth into a full Frog. There's also rather a big difference between the two types of "killing" being discussed here. One kills a single, specific instance, one particular incarnation of someone's "ultimate self", e.g. "this universe's Meenah is now Gone Forever, but all the other Meenahs still exist," while the other kills every instance of a particular "ultimate self," e.g. "I have killed every version of Hephaestus, everywhere." The fact that, even with all his power, Lord English can't kill just a regular old *player's* "ultimate self" would seem to suggest, but not conclusively prove, that he can't kill the "ultimate self" of the denizens, either. We've seen him annihilate ghosts all over the place, sure, but nothing whatsoever suggests that he can eliminate every version of a player, let alone a game construct like a denizen.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 14, 2016 9:32:43 GMT
We've seen him annihilate ghosts all over the place, sure, but nothing whatsoever suggests that he can eliminate every version of a player, let alone a game construct like a denizen. Actually, he's apparently killing the Horrorterrors, and by all accounts those appear to be game constructs.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 14, 2016 23:51:02 GMT
We've seen him annihilate ghosts all over the place, sure, but nothing whatsoever suggests that he can eliminate every version of a player, let alone a game construct like a denizen. Actually, he's apparently killing the Horrorterrors, and by all accounts those appear to be game constructs. I don't think there's any indication that Horrorterrors are game constructs. They exist in the space between all of the Incipispheres that arise.
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thedude3445
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Post by thedude3445 on Aug 15, 2016 3:05:13 GMT
Actually, he's apparently killing the Horrorterrors, and by all accounts those appear to be game constructs. I don't think there's any indication that Horrorterrors are game constructs. They exist in the space between all of the Incipispheres that arise. That begs the question of what exactly the Horrorterrors ARE, then. Regardless of whether or not they're game constructs (which they don't seem to be), what are they? Where do they come from? I know there's a lot of that Elder God stuff to where you're not SUPPOSED to know the truth, but there should at least be some good hints towards it. Some people theorized way back when that they're supposed to be the end result of a successful Squiddle session, but that seems kind of stupid to me (spoilers for Sandswept I guess).
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 15, 2016 4:23:01 GMT
That begs the question of what exactly the Horrorterrors ARE, then. Regardless of whether or not they're game constructs (which they don't seem to be), what are they? Where do they come from? I know there's a lot of that Elder God stuff to where you're not SUPPOSED to know the truth, but there should at least be some good hints towards it. Some people theorized way back when that they're supposed to be the end result of a successful Squiddle session, but that seems kind of stupid to me (spoilers for Sandswept I guess). My guess is that both they, and SBurb/Genesis-Frogs are just Species in the super-cosmic ecosystem. Just as the Frogs breed and die just like conventional lifeforms, HorrorTerrors appear to be similar in that they, if nothing else, bleed and can be killed with plain old brute force. The HorrorTerrors' interaction with Derse Dreamers, I feel, is simply a case of minor symbiosis between the two species.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 15, 2016 5:09:00 GMT
Actually, he's apparently killing the Horrorterrors, and by all accounts those appear to be game constructs. I don't think there's any indication that Horrorterrors are game constructs. They exist in the space between all of the Incipispheres that arise. But they act as the counterpoint to the Skaian eclipses. Both players on Prospit and Derse get information about the future from different sources. If players on Derse lose their source for information about the future, doesn't that throw off the balance?
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 15, 2016 8:17:37 GMT
I don't think there's any indication that Horrorterrors are game constructs. They exist in the space between all of the Incipispheres that arise. But they act as the counterpoint to the Skaian eclipses. Both players on Prospit and Derse get information about the future from different sources. If players on Derse lose their source for information about the future, doesn't that throw off the balance? No? It's not like the horrorterrors are going extinct here, any more than the destruction of incipispheres or battlefields will eliminate Skaia from existence. Some of them have been killed. Do you know how many of them there are? I certainly have no idea, so I can't even begin to make statements about relative losses. But we do know that some of them were surviving, because they were able to call for help. Therefore, they continue to exist, at least to some degree. There's also the dream bubbles, which are "glubbed up" by the horrorterrors; if they were all dead, it's not clear that the dream bubbles would continue on, either. As for the idea that the horrorterrors are game constructs, I think it's made quite clear that they aren't. Aradia, with her sprite knowledge of the game's mechanics, specifically wrote: FAA: a pr0duct 0f c0llusi0n between the disparate f0rces at play FAA: a bargain struck between what skaia kn0ws already and what the g0ds demand up fr0nt FAA: t0gether they 0rchestrate trials sufficient t0 ensure FAA: that in 0verc0ming them we w0uld be pr0ven w0rthy FAA: 0f inheriting Sburb, Sgrub, etc. are all a pact between the passive but omniscient Skaia, and the active but unyielding Horrorterrors. For whatever reason, the Horrorterrors don't want people just creating new universes as they like--perhaps because those universe-frogs occupy locations in the infinite reaches of paradox space, we don't know. So the "g0ds demand" difficulty and sacrifice, they demand that the players EARN their happy ending. It is because of them that the game exists, not the other way around. Just as the infinite creative potential of Skaia must precede the game which instantiates it, the infinite darkness of the Horrorterrors must precede the game that those horribleterrible beings set the limits for. Other circumstantial evidence: - As Imglasses said, the horrorterrors do not actually enter the sessions...ever, as far as we can tell. Bit odd to have a "game construct" that never gets, you know, constructed by the game. - The various game constructs we know of are either denizens (unique per session) or prefab clones from stock material (e.g. the named carapacians like Jack Noir, the royals, etc.) - There only seems to be a single instance of any given horrorterror in all of paradox space; the only info we have on which of them there are comes from the Grimoire of the Zoologically Dubious, and seems to name them as individuals, not classes or species. The only example of an in-session horrorterror-type being is Gl'bgolyb, and even then it is technically not a horrorterror itself, just an emissary to them. (Quick dictionary digression: an emissary is one who speaks on behalf of another party, but since Gl'bgolyb is the emissary to the horrorterrors, it is Alternia's emissary to them, rather than the other way around, implying Gl'bgolyb is not a horrorterror but somehow made to be like them or appeal to them.) So, all combined, I think it's unlikely that the horrorterrors are game constructs--at the very least, they seem to follow different rules than the denizens follow. We should thus be cautious about presuming that interactions with either one are necessarily reflective of interactions with the other.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 16, 2016 8:20:16 GMT
But they act as the counterpoint to the Skaian eclipses. Both players on Prospit and Derse get information about the future from different sources. If players on Derse lose their source for information about the future, doesn't that throw off the balance? No? It's not like the horrorterrors are going extinct here, any more than the destruction of incipispheres or battlefields will eliminate Skaia from existence. Some of them have been killed. Do you know how many of them there are? I certainly have no idea, so I can't even begin to make statements about relative losses. But we do know that some of them were surviving, because they were able to call for help. Therefore, they continue to exist, at least to some degree. There's also the dream bubbles, which are "glubbed up" by the horrorterrors; if they were all dead, it's not clear that the dream bubbles would continue on, either. Just because they're not all dead yet doesn't mean that they can't be completely wiped out by Lord English. Endangered species are labeled as such because they're in danger of going extinct. The fact that they call for help and construct the bubbles as bait at all signals that they at least figure they have something to fear from him and should try to divert his attention from themselves. As for the idea that the horrorterrors are game constructs, I think it's made quite clear that they aren't. Aradia, with her sprite knowledge of the game's mechanics, specifically wrote: FAA: a pr0duct 0f c0llusi0n between the disparate f0rces at play FAA: a bargain struck between what skaia kn0ws already and what the g0ds demand up fr0nt FAA: t0gether they 0rchestrate trials sufficient t0 ensure FAA: that in 0verc0ming them we w0uld be pr0ven w0rthy FAA: 0f inheriting Sburb, Sgrub, etc. are all a pact between the passive but omniscient Skaia, and the active but unyielding Horrorterrors. For whatever reason, the Horrorterrors don't want people just creating new universes as they like--perhaps because those universe-frogs occupy locations in the infinite reaches of paradox space, we don't know. So the "g0ds demand" difficulty and sacrifice, they demand that the players EARN their happy ending. It is because of them that the game exists, not the other way around. Just as the infinite creative potential of Skaia must precede the game which instantiates it, the infinite darkness of the Horrorterrors must precede the game that those horribleterrible beings set the limits for. I don't see anything in that quote that points to the Horroterrors not being game constructs. The idea that players should jump through hoops to make a Universe isn't any different from challenges built into ordinary video games that players have to overcome before they can win the game. Which are, well, built into the game. Other circumstantial evidence: - As Imglasses said, the horrorterrors do not actually enter the sessions...ever, as far as we can tell. Bit odd to have a "game construct" that never gets, you know, constructed by the game. Neither does Paradox Space, the Furthest Ring, and with one big sort-of exception, the Green Sun. But those are all integral to the game. Then there's the First Guardians who are all created at some point, but never technically enter the game, having always been on their respective planets. - There only seems to be a single instance of any given horrorterror in all of paradox space; the only info we have on which of them there are comes from the Grimoire of the Zoologically Dubious, and seems to name them as individuals, not classes or species. I would count Horrorterror counts as a species, but that's me. The only example of an in-session horrorterror-type being is Gl'bgolyb, and even then it is technically not a horrorterror itself, just an emissary to them. (Quick dictionary digression: an emissary is one who speaks on behalf of another party, but since Gl'bgolyb is the emissary to the horrorterrors, it is Alternia's emissary to them, rather than the other way around, implying Gl'bgolyb is not a horrorterror but somehow made to be like them or appeal to them.) So, all combined, I think it's unlikely that the horrorterrors are game constructs--at the very least, they seem to follow different rules than the denizens follow. We should thus be cautious about presuming that interactions with either one are necessarily reflective of interactions with the other. The thing is, even if Horroterrors are not (or were not originally meant to be) game constructs, they still function as such. Like I said, Prospit dreamers see visions in Skaia that allow them to do things they need to in order to progress, but if there are no Horrorterrors the Derse dreamers get bupkiss. This makes it so that if you're a Derse dreamer, you automatically and arbitrarily start off with a disadvantage the Prospit dreamers don't. Hell, Prospit dreamers already get an unfair advantage in their Space players, who seems to always wake up early and seems to always dream on the yellow planet's moon.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 16, 2016 8:50:20 GMT
I don't see anything in that quote that points to the Horroterrors not being game constructs. The idea that players should jump through hoops to make a Universe isn't any different from challenges built into ordinary video games that players have to overcome before they can win the game. Which are, well, built into the game. [...] The thing is, even if Horroterrors are not (or were not originally meant to be) game constructs, they still function as such. Like I said, Prospit dreamers see visions in Skaia that allow them to do things they need to in order to progress, but if there are no Horrorterrors the Derse dreamers get bupkiss. This makes it so that if you're a Derse dreamer, you automatically and arbitrarily start off with a disadvantage the Prospit dreamers don't. Hell, Prospit dreamers already get an unfair advantage in their Space players, who seems to always wake up early and seems to always dream on the yellow planet's moon. The term "Game Construct" implies that they were made by the game and exist solely for the sake of the Game. But with the quote from Aradia the HorrorTerrors seem far more analogous to Game Developers, in that their dealings with Skaia made the game. And just because they continue to have an effect on the game doesn't mean that they're part of the game, just as other people in a multiplayer game aren't actually part of the game itself.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 16, 2016 8:53:19 GMT
What, exactly, is it that you mean by the term "game construct"? Because it sounds to me like we're talking past each other here.
When I say "game construct," I mean something specifically created via the game, or created within the players' home universe as a vital step to making the game happen (e.g. the Skaianet terminals, and the game discs, are "game constructs" even though they almost certainly were manufactured on Earth). Jack Noir is a game construct because his rebellion against the Dersite royals is a vital component of the game's conflict (whether as an ally or an enemy). The horrorterrors, on the other hand, are not game constructs because they aren't created by the game itself (we never see one produced at any point, nor see even a whisper of a suggestion that they are created by the game). Further, they seem to be the ones who have created the game (or co-created it, with Skaia). That's why I interpreted that passage as demonstrating the horrorterrors "come first." They designed Sburb, in whatever sense one can say Sburb could be "designed." It would be like saying that Warren Spector is a game construct of Deus Ex because he was the head creator for it; you'd be committing a category error, confusing the creator for an element of the thing he created.
Also, technically speaking, you're wrong about both of the FGs we've seen. They are--have to be--ectobiologized in the Medium, because they arrive on Earth by meteor, and all the necessary equipment for ectobiology starts in the Medium (well, other than Rose's Mom's lab, but that wasn't functional--and came from Skaianet anyway, which was almost certainly fuelled by tech from the Medium). I mean, in theory you could create your FG on the "host planet" itself, but you'd still be doing so using ectobiology equipment that almost surely came from the Medium anyway, and I don't consider that to be meaningfully different.
To work with an actual computer game, your mouse pointer is a game construct, and one might argue that even your mouse itself (the physical object) is a game construct in a very distant and obtuse sense. But you couldn't say that Bill Gates is a game construct, even though (if you use Windows) Bill Gates' existence is a necessary thing for you to be playing that game in the way you are, on the machine you're using. Or to use a literary analogy, the diction and style of a text are among the literary constructs of the work; one can even say that the binding and paper are literary constructs, albeit in an obtuse sense; but one cannot say that Joanne Rowling or Isaac Asimov or William Shakespeare is a literary construct, even though the work you're reading couldn't possibly happen without them existing to have written it. It's a matter of precedence; if a thing necessarily precedes the existence of the game (or literary work), it cannot be one of that thing's constructs, even if it continues to participate in the execution of that thing at a later date. Only things which follow from the game existing can be game constructs.
Example: say Peter Molyneux makes a brand-new game that has a special social media tie-in so his tweets and facebook posts actually have a critical, active effect on the game experience. Twitter and Facebook themselves don't become game constructs, because their existence is wholly independent of the game, even though the game can't operate (or at least not properly) without them. Peter Molyneux doesn't become a game construct, because his existence is wholly independent of the game, even though the game can't operate (or at least not properly) without him. If P.M. creates a new Twitter account specifically for this game? That becomes a game construct--it only came into existence because the game demanded that it exist; its existence is a consequence of the game happening, not a cause of the game happening.
TL;DR: Sburb exists because the horrorterrors (co-)made it, not the other way around, so I don't think the horrorterrors logically can be "game constructs," even if they affect play.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 16, 2016 16:20:51 GMT
What, exactly, is it that you mean by the term "game construct"? Because it sounds to me like we're talking past each other here. When I say "game construct," I mean something specifically created via the game, or created within the players' home universe as a vital step to making the game happen (e.g. the Skaianet terminals, and the game discs, are "game constructs" even though they almost certainly were manufactured on Earth). Jack Noir is a game construct because his rebellion against the Dersite royals is a vital component of the game's conflict (whether as an ally or an enemy). The horrorterrors, on the other hand, are not game constructs because they aren't created by the game itself (we never see one produced at any point, nor see even a whisper of a suggestion that they are created by the game). Further, they seem to be the ones who have created the game (or co-created it, with Skaia). That's why I interpreted that passage as demonstrating the horrorterrors "come first." They designed Sburb, in whatever sense one can say Sburb could be "designed." It would be like saying that Warren Spector is a game construct of Deus Ex because he was the head creator for it; you'd be committing a category error, confusing the creator for an element of the thing he created. I'm laboring under the assumption that what Hussie said about the Horrorterror's creating Universe A was a joke, or at the very least not something we can be sure of. And the function they serve is very similar to what is explicitly a game construct: Skaia and the visions it provides. Also, technically speaking, you're wrong about both of the FGs we've seen. They are-- have to be--ectobiologized in the Medium, because they arrive on Earth by meteor, and all the necessary equipment for ectobiology starts in the Medium (well, other than Rose's Mom's lab, but that wasn't functional--and came from Skaianet anyway, which was almost certainly fuelled by tech from the Medium). I mean, in theory you could create your FG on the "host planet" itself, but you'd still be doing so using ectobiology equipment that almost surely came from the Medium anyway, and I don't consider that to be meaningfully different. Well yeah, they come from the Medium but they're shipped off to earth right after and are part of the planet from its inception, and they're supposed to be the guardians of any planet that will one day play S==>b. At the very least, I'd compare them to hardware you need to be able to play the game because they keep the world from being destroyed before S==>b is developed. I don't see anything in that quote that points to the Horroterrors not being game constructs. The idea that players should jump through hoops to make a Universe isn't any different from challenges built into ordinary video games that players have to overcome before they can win the game. Which are, well, built into the game. [...] The thing is, even if Horroterrors are not (or were not originally meant to be) game constructs, they still function as such. Like I said, Prospit dreamers see visions in Skaia that allow them to do things they need to in order to progress, but if there are no Horrorterrors the Derse dreamers get bupkiss. This makes it so that if you're a Derse dreamer, you automatically and arbitrarily start off with a disadvantage the Prospit dreamers don't. Hell, Prospit dreamers already get an unfair advantage in their Space players, who seems to always wake up early and seems to always dream on the yellow planet's moon. The term "Game Construct" implies that they were made by the game and exist solely for the sake of the Game. But with the quote from Aradia the HorrorTerrors seem far more analogous to Game Developers, in that their dealings with Skaia made the game. And just because they continue to have an effect on the game doesn't mean that they're part of the game, just as other people in a multiplayer game aren't actually part of the game itself. Honest question: how does what Aradia say imply that? Because maybe I just didn't sleep well enough last night but I don't see it. To me it just sounds like she said Skaia and the Horroterrors both work to make trials for players to pass to prove they're worthy of a Universe, which....kind of sounds to me like what you'd expect bits of a game to do.
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Post by eerr on Aug 16, 2016 16:58:57 GMT
Does that mean a constructed character made for playing a game is a game construct?
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 16, 2016 20:14:25 GMT
Honest question: how does what Aradia say imply that? Because maybe I just didn't sleep well enough last night but I don't see it. To me it just sounds like she said Skaia and the Horroterrors both work to make trials for players to pass to prove they're worthy of a Universe, which....kind of sounds to me like what you'd expect bits of a game to do. It is the Trials that are the game, not the people who make the trials.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Aug 16, 2016 20:18:22 GMT
Really big problem with comparing SBURB to a regular game or piece of literature: SBURB is real inside the story of Homestuck, and quite obviously Games and Literature lack that realness in our world. Sure there's a distinction between Warren Spector and Deus Ex, and JC Denton is a game construct inside Deus Ex.
But JC Denton isn't as real as Warren Spector and can't actually come out of Deus Ex and fight Warren Spector.
There's no line between what's Sburb and what's not Sburb in Homestuck, the Universes Sburb creates are within frogs within mediums, so are they within Sburb? Sburb exists in the same operational space as the Horrorterrors and Skaia, so is the reality that they all exist in (the reality beyond Paradox Space) the construction the game and everything else operates in?
The line being drawn here is arbitrary; its like trying to say that life on earth exists separately from the rest of the universe. Or that pesterlogs hold a separate existence within Homestuck's structure than the narration or images.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 16, 2016 20:40:30 GMT
Really big problem with comparing SBURB to a regular game or piece of literature: SBURB is real inside the story of Homestuck, and quite obviously Games and Literature lack that realness in our world. Sure there's a distinction between Warren Spector and Deus Ex, and JC Denton is a game construct inside Deus Ex. But JC Denton isn't as real as Warren Spector and can't actually come out of Deus Ex and fight Warren Spector.There's no line between what's Sburb and what's not Sburb in Homestuck, the Universes Sburb creates are within frogs within mediums, so are they within Sburb? Sburb exists in the same operational space as the Horrorterrors and Skaia, so is the reality that they all exist in (the reality beyond Paradox Space) the construction the game and everything else operates in? The line being drawn here is arbitrary; its like trying to say that life on earth exists separately from the rest of the universe. Or that pesterlogs hold a separate existence within Homestuck's structure than the narration or images. You are right in these are exceptional circumstances and that the line isn't so clear. But I'm pretty sure that an entity that A) Helped to make the game in the first place and B) Can not only exist, but have personal purpose independent of the game would definitely be over the line, wherever said line may lie. The Horror-Terrors, I feel, meet that criteria.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Aug 16, 2016 21:25:19 GMT
You are right in these are exceptional circumstances and that the line isn't so clear. But I'm pretty sure that an entity that A) Helped to make the game in the first place and B) Can not only exist, but have personal purpose independent of the game would definitely be over the line, wherever said line may lie. The Horror-Terrors, I feel, meet that criteria. But there's no line between the Game and the Horrorterrors. The game mechanics (God-Tiers, the Rings, dreambubbles and selves) function outside of and using the furthest ring (heck, you need a player of time or space to navigate them aswell as the entire shebang being canonically formed from the aspects that are part of the game) in a way that they don't in any other context where "Game" and "Reality" are separate. Sburb has no edge where its properties are separate from reality as it is reality. Sburb's mechanics are the mechanics of Paradox Space, and the Horrorterrors are a part of Paradox Space. They have no purpose or, nay, existence outside of those mechanics as a creator would. The only thing Aradia states that they created the trials inside of the game (that statement being in the context of explaining why the trolls had to face a G'lbgolyb-prototyped Black King) , in a way a game AI designed to ramp up its difficulty for the players when they have shown skill might, and Game AI is definitely not outside the bounds of a game.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 16, 2016 21:40:59 GMT
But there's no line between the Game and the Horrorterrors. The game mechanics (God-Tiers, the Rings, dreambubbles and selves) function outside of and using the furthest ring (heck, you need a player of time or space to navigate them aswell as the entire shebang being canonically formed from the aspects that are part of the game) in a way that they don't in any other context where "Game" and "Reality" are separate. Sburb has no edge where its properties are separate from reality as it is reality. Sburb's mechanics are the mechanics of Paradox Space, and the Horrorterrors are a part of Paradox Space. They have no purpose or, nay, existence outside of those mechanics as a creator would. The only thing Aradia states that they created the trials inside of the game (that statement being in the context of explaining why the trolls had to face a G'lbgolyb-prototyped Black King) , in a way a game AI designed to ramp up its difficulty for the players when they have shown skill might, and Game AI is definitely not outside the bounds of a game. The line I'm drawing isn't about where the reality ends and the game begins, because as you say that line doesn't exist. The line I'm drawing is about what is for the game and only for the game. The consorts are a Game Construct because they are soirced from the Medium, serve as NPCs to the players and have little to no purpose outside of the game. The Aspects are not a Game Construct for the same reason that the laws of physics are not a construct of a sport that uses those physics to make the ball bounce. Same goes for the Horror Terrors. Through whatever deal/agreement they have with Skaia, they designed the set of trials and challenges that we call Sburb. Also, it's not quite correct to say that Sburb's mechanics and Paradox Space's mechanics are one and the same. Yes Paradox Space has Aspects naturally, but I'm pretty sure that without Sburb, no-one would be endowed with one particular Aspect to become a super-powered semi-immortal, just as the afore mentioned sport has the rule "The Ball goes in the goal", which is not one of the laws of Physics, but uses those laws to make it happen.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Aug 16, 2016 22:41:36 GMT
The line I'm drawing isn't about where the reality ends and the game begins, because as you say that line doesn't exist. The line I'm drawing is about what is for the game and only for the game. The consorts are a Game Construct because they are soirced from the Medium, serve as NPCs to the players and have little to no purpose outside of the game. The Aspects are not a Game Construct for the same reason that the laws of physics are not a construct of a sport that uses those physics to make the ball bounce. Same goes for the Horror Terrors. Through whatever deal/agreement they have with Skaia, they designed the set of trials and challenges that we call Sburb. And I say that distinction is impossible since everything in Paradox Space serves Sburb as Sburb is Paradox Space. Sburb is how reality perpetuates itself, and trying to say something in Paradox Space doesn't serve the purpose of Sburb is like saying that something in our reality exists independently of the universe (or multiverse, if that's your sort of thing). It's an exercise in futility. Physics isn't a construct of sports, but our reality is not based around sports either. Physics is part of the perpetuation of our reality, and all that exists serves that perpetuation in our own universe. The problem with that idea is that a sports rules never exist beyond our belief in them. The difference, in my view, that makes a "game" a "game", is this lack of realness. Goalies, Goals, the point value of kicking a ball around the former and into the later, none of these ever actually exist when the sport involving them is being played; they are all either descriptions of actions or social values we put on them. The mechanism they we say they are played through is real, but the rules never exist beyond our minds. We can say that Team A won and Team B lost, but when we leave the stadium and go back to our lives the game has stopped existing. The rules of soccer only follow us in how we wish them to. This never happens with Sburb.
Sburbs rules are a fundamental part of paradox space. If the Horrorterrors had any control over the game, most assuredly they would stop Lord English in his tracks, since they plead for help from Dave and Rose says they need saving, among other instances where they get slaughtered. There's never at any point shown that God-Tier powers are constructs like the rules of a sport or normal. Never can you stop playing Sburb and lose your god-tiers powers like you can stop playing a sport. God-Tiers exists a fundamental part of Paradox Space with powers granted by existence itself. The very fact that they can bend reality outside of a session shows that this is the case; Jade's powers work in the Hussieverse, Rose's work on the Meteor, John's work in the Dreambubbles, Lord English's work everywhere he goes. The game's rules exist beyond the wishes of any mediator, rule-keeper or controller, showing that nothing is beyond it, and that Paradox-Space and it are one and the same.
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 16, 2016 22:48:19 GMT
And I say that distinction is impossible since everything in Paradox Space serves Sburb as Sburb is Paradox Space. Sburb is how reality perpetuates itself, and trying to say something in Paradox Space doesn't serve the purpose of Sburb is like saying that something in our reality exists independently of the universe (or multiverse, if that's your sort of thing). It's an exercise in futility. No, Sburb is how Genesis Frogs perpetuates itself, not Reality as a whole. There's no evidence to suggest that the Furthest Ring wouldn't exist without Sburb.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Aug 16, 2016 23:04:00 GMT
And I say that distinction is impossible since everything in Paradox Space serves Sburb as Sburb is Paradox Space. Sburb is how reality perpetuates itself, and trying to say something in Paradox Space doesn't serve the purpose of Sburb is like saying that something in our reality exists independently of the universe (or multiverse, if that's your sort of thing). It's an exercise in futility. No, Sburb is how Genesis Frogs perpetuates itself, not Reality as a whole. There's no evidence to suggest that the Furthest Ring wouldn't exist without Sburb. While I was off on that point, there's no evidence suggests one can divorce Sburb and the Genesis Frogs from being an intrinsic part of Paradox Space, in the same way that our reality could exist without Mass and the Higgs Boson, but it is impossible to remove the Higgs Boson and Mass from reality.
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