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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 17, 2016 3:53:43 GMT
No, Sburb is how Genesis Frogs perpetuates itself, not Reality as a whole. There's no evidence to suggest that the Furthest Ring wouldn't exist without Sburb. While I was off on that point, there's no evidence suggests one can divorce Sburb and the Genesis Frogs from being an intrinsic part of Paradox Space, in the same way that our reality could exist without Mass and the Higgs Boson, but it is impossible to remove the Higgs Boson and Mass from reality. I'm not sure how this helps your point. If, in this analogy, Paradox Space is like our Reality and the entites within it as fundamental particles, and you agree that Reality could exist without one particular Boson, while continuing to function with all of the other Bosons and the forces they represent, then are you not saying that Paradox Space can continue to exist without Sburb while other entities like the Horror Terrors persist? Or to approach this point from a different angle: You are talking about Sburb as if it is some fundamental law of nature, but I don't see it that way. I see Sburb and the Genesis Frogs simply as a two-stage self replicating entity(or you could call it a cosmic life form if you want). Sburb uses the laws and properties of Paradox Space in its operation, just as lifeforms rely on, say, electromagnetism for their nervous systems, but that doesn't mean that those properties of reality belong to them. As for the Horror-Terrors, given how little influence they have over the operation of Sburb, and how Sburb could theoretically work without them, and also that it does not appear that Sburb actually makes the Horror Terrors, I see no reason to classify them as a component of this self-replicating system, just as we would not classify Dogs as part of Humanity despite the effects canines have had on our development as a species and civilisation.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 17, 2016 15:38:14 GMT
Quoting your post slightly out of order, AC, because my responses will make much, much more sense that way. Well yeah, they come from the Medium but they're shipped off to earth right after and are part of the planet from its inception, and they're supposed to be the guardians of any planet that will one day play S==>b. At the very least, I'd compare them to hardware you need to be able to play the game because they keep the world from being destroyed before S==>b is developed. That they come from the medium is the key point. You had said, "Then there's the First Guardians who are all created at some point, but never technically enter the game, having always been on their respective planets." This assertion, as you have now admitted, was incorrect. The Horrorterrors, to the best of our knowledge, are never created at all--they just exist, in the same way that Skaia just exists. Honest question: how does what Aradia say imply that? Because maybe I just didn't sleep well enough last night but I don't see it. To me it just sounds like she said Skaia and the Horroterrors both work to make trials for players to pass to prove they're worthy of a Universe, which....kind of sounds to me like what you'd expect bits of a game to do. At least in our world, "game constructs" don't make anything. Now, as I'm going to argue below, the limitations of "our world" aren't necessarily appropriate, so you shouldn't take that as a good rebuttal--not by itself. More to the point, though, the best analogy for what Sburb is...is tabletop roleplaying games, like D&D. I think we can agree on that, right? A game with a universalized system of character "jobs" or "roles," that requires custom-tailored challenges in order to provide the entertainment value it purports to deliver. In D&D, that's the Dungeon Master (or Game Master, Storyteller, Castle Keeper, referee, and several other terms in various non-D&D TTRPG systems). So, given that, I now have to ask a (semi-rhetorical) question of my own: is the DM a game construct of D&D? I would argue hell no: the DM is a person, not something constructed by or for the game. She provides a critical function--a function without which the came literally could not happen--but she is not a "game construct." And the DM's whole job, literally the only thing the DM does, is "making trials for the players to pass to prove they're worthy." That's why I'm using analogies to things like programmers::videogames and Bill Gates::Windows. The DM isn't something made, caused, called, or invoked by the game D&D; the game D&D only exists because DMs choose to run it. The DM necessarily causally precedes the game--and, I would argue, that's exactly the same situation as with both the Horrorterrors and Skaia. From the perspective of the players and the game's mechanics, both sides are simply forces that exist. Their origin, whatever it might be, is beyond the scope of the game. In fact, you can go a level deeper and say that the two colluding forces (Skaia, Horrorterrors) are literally the two forces a DM must juggle in running a game for a group of players. On the one hand, you have the utterly passive, creative potential of the rules themselves--the rules cannot achieve anything on their own, as they have no ability to act, and the DM can only "act through the rules" by...changing them, which is (loosely) equivalent to Skaia having control over the destination of the meteor portals. But these rules provide you with the framework by which you can give a fair adjudication, which is vital for the give-and-take that creates a fun campaign. On the other hand, you have the active, destructive urge that comes from always being and creating the players' opponents, which only works to tear the players down and harm their characters. Without this challenge, though, the game would be toothless and uninteresting. It's only by moderating each side with the other that you can get to the "goal"--having a fun time, if playing D&D, and creating a new universe, if playing Sburb. I'm laboring under the assumption that what Hussie said about the Horrorterror's creating Universe A was a joke, or at the very least not something we can be sure of. And the function they serve is very similar to what is explicitly a game construct: Skaia and the visions it provides. Er...where is it explicitly said that Skaia is a game construct? I haven't seen that. In fact, the way it's described, it seems to be some kind of numinous force, the wellspring of all creative energy. When Rose discussed how the Scratch worked for their universe, although she often uses terms specific to that universe, her description is clearly meant to be generic--and she always refers to Skaia as a singular entity. It's never "all Skaias do x," as though each incipisphere had its own "copy" of Skaia. The (IMO rather strong) implication is that there is only one Skaia--it just touches every incipisphere. Certainly, there's nothing I can see which explicitly states that Skaia is created by Sburb; if anything, it really seems like all of the game's content is coming from Skaia, typically by inspiration or meteor-assisted-tech since Skaia doesn't act. Now, I will grant you that Skaia's clouds are a game construct. They're probably the only other "active" thing Skaia can do. But such clouds are literally exactly like a game mechanic from a D&D-like game: "portents" from the game Dungeon World. In any TTRPG, the person running the game has to drop hints and clues now and then--the players can't directly access the world, so they need the DM to occasionally dangle plot hooks for them. Such things are inherently passive, meant to be taken hold of and (mis)interpreted by the players. That such things are explicitly a game mechanic doesn't mean the thing providing them is a game mechanic. Really big problem with comparing SBURB to a regular game or piece of literature: SBURB is real inside the story of Homestuck, and quite obviously Games and Literature lack that realness in our world. Sure there's a distinction between Warren Spector and Deus Ex, and JC Denton is a game construct inside Deus Ex. But JC Denton isn't as real as Warren Spector and can't actually come out of Deus Ex and fight Warren Spector.You have noted that the analogy isn't 100% perfect; the question is, does that flaw come to bear on the connection I'm alleging? I would say no, it doesn't. There are two key issues here: 1. Real games cannot create physical objects from (apparently) nothing, portals to other regions of reality, etc. Yet we are still comfortable referring to Sburb as "a game." If we take your rebuttal as fatal to my argument, then it is fatal to the very idea of "game constructs"--because all you've proven is that Sburb isn't "a game" as we would use the term in our world. Applying real-world limits is something we have to do consistently--either they're always on, always off, or there is a reason in each case why they do or don't apply. You cannot arbitrarily say "it's not like real games" in one place and "it's just like real games" in another place without explaining why one goes one way and the other the opposite. 2. Just because an entity (in this case, the game Sburb/etc.) has the capacity to create real objects does not therefore automatically imply that all real objects must originate from that entity. You would need some fairly strong evidence to assert the claim, "Sburb must have created every object, entity, and event that appears in Homestuck." Without that claim, however, your argument falls apart: a thing where a "real JC Denton" could come out of the game and fight Warren Spector isn't real, but it's also not logically impossible, either. If we lived in a universe where games with powers similar to Sburb's--where actually real objects, even real people, can be created as a result of play--that doesn't therefore automatically mean that the Warren Spector of that universe is part of the Deusburb Ex he creates. I completely disagree that the line is arbitrary. It is quite clear, and supported by very specific reasons. 1. I gave a definition of "game construct" that was clear and consistent, and have not deviated from that definition. The only addendum I might add--because I had not considered the fact that I'd left the scope unrestricted, as I had assumed that we were looking at any single instance of Sburb--is that game constructs are always relative to such single, specific instances. E.g. we have seen that there is a Jack Noir for A2, B1, B2, and C, and been told (by Hussie, when discussing kismesis) that there is always a Jack Noir for every session. Thus, Jack Noir is quite clearly a game construct. Skaia, by comparison, doesn't appear to have specific incarnations in each session--rather, it's always the same Skaia, simply touching another incipisphere, like poly-dimensional "fingers" inserted into three-dimensional space. 2. There actually are several, quite clear, lines in Homestuck. "Universes" cannot, themselves, be sessions. They are linked to sessions (generally at least two--one parent, and one or more children), but you won't ever see Skaia itself showing up within a universe. That's a pretty clear line. Another line: the edges of incipispheres. Time and space follow all the rules we expect them to follow within the bubble of an incipisphere, there's no fluidity of distance or duration. Given the name, it's presumed that incipispheres have spherical boundaries, but they could be any number of shapes as long as they have circular cross-section (because the Lands, the Veil, Derse, and Prospit all orbit Skaia on a circular plane). You can fly outside the incipisphere, and start to experience these fluid-spacetime effects, only to have them cease again once you enter another incipisphere. In addition to these spatial lines, there is the Alpha timeline, which is another clear and explicitly-discussed thing (at least until John ascended to Mary Sue Tier aka got retcon powers). 3. Your analogy is highly suspect. I am not asserting that a created thing exists independently of the environment in which it was created. In fact, that's exactly the reverse of what I'm saying. To be as clear and concise as possible: Creators precede the things they create. I am asserting that the evidence suggests--there's nowhere near enough evidence to "prove" anything--that Skaia and the Horrorterrors are the creators, the originators, of the universe-producing challenge game variously called "Sburb," "Sgrub" and possibly other names. What does it mean to "create" an endless infinite (or circular) chain of things? I have no idea. But the comic definitely appears to suggest that Skaia and the Horrorterrors collude to make each session of Sburb, in the way that a DM's desire to employ rules, and her desire to oppose the players, collude to craft each campaign of D&D. But these desires--to adjudicate fairly, and to put up a fight--are not and cannot be "part of" the campaign itself. They are the campaign's foundation, its wellspring. Campaigns cannot create DMs. And I'm asserting that Skaia and the Horrorterrors are co-DMs (if somewhat cantankerous ones) of each individual session of Sburb/etc., in addition to being the designers of Sburb/etc. In fact, the only way for your analogy to hold is assuming you're right and I'm wrong first, and then analyzing my argument. That's blatantly begging the question. You can't refute my claim, "I think the comic implies that Skaia and the Horrorterrors precede Sburb because they created it," by arguing that we must assume that Skaia and the Horrorterrors are part of Sburb. You need to explain why we should see Skaia and the Horrorterrors as "life within the universe," that is, processes which could only even potentially exist if Sburb were already there. Until you do explain that, your argument holds no weight. (Can I just say, I have strongly disliked literally every "generalized" version of Sburb, but I really really wish there were one I liked? Because it's so clunky to use "Sburb/etc." or full names. Tempted to just call it S*b from now on.)
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 19, 2016 5:59:42 GMT
Paradox Space is all of reality. Genesis frogs are organisms existing in an extremely minuscule portion of that reality, and Sburb sessions are how those organisms reproduce. The horrorterrors are a completely different type of organism, existing separately from Sburb sessions and Genesis frogs. Even most of the smallest horrorterrors are larger than entire Incipispheres, so there's no way they're spawned by the game. And horrorterrors seem to be opposed to the creation of new universes, so I don't see why they would create countless universe-making games. IIRC, all we know is that they reached out to Derse dreamers for help when they were being slaughtered. I don't think there was evidence that one had to do with the creation of the other.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 20, 2016 6:20:48 GMT
Quoting your post slightly out of order, AC, because my responses will make much, much more sense that way. Well yeah, they come from the Medium but they're shipped off to earth right after and are part of the planet from its inception, and they're supposed to be the guardians of any planet that will one day play S==>b. At the very least, I'd compare them to hardware you need to be able to play the game because they keep the world from being destroyed before S==>b is developed. That they come from the medium is the key point. You had said, "Then there's the First Guardians who are all created at some point, but never technically enter the game, having always been on their respective planets." This assertion, as you have now admitted, was incorrect. The Horrorterrors, to the best of our knowledge, are never created at all--they just exist, in the same way that Skaia just exists. Alright sure, but why does that mean they can't be game constructs again? Honest question: how does what Aradia say imply that? Because maybe I just didn't sleep well enough last night but I don't see it. To me it just sounds like she said Skaia and the Horroterrors both work to make trials for players to pass to prove they're worthy of a Universe, which....kind of sounds to me like what you'd expect bits of a game to do. At least in our world, "game constructs" don't make anything. Now, as I'm going to argue below, the limitations of "our world" aren't necessarily appropriate, so you shouldn't take that as a good rebuttal--not by itself. More to the point, though, the best analogy for what Sburb is...is tabletop roleplaying games, like D&D. I think we can agree on that, right? A game with a universalized system of character "jobs" or "roles," that requires custom-tailored challenges in order to provide the entertainment value it purports to deliver. In D&D, that's the Dungeon Master (or Game Master, Storyteller, Castle Keeper, referee, and several other terms in various non-D&D TTRPG systems). So, given that, I now have to ask a (semi-rhetorical) question of my own: is the DM a game construct of D&D? I would argue hell no: the DM is a person, not something constructed by or for the game. She provides a critical function--a function without which the came literally could not happen--but she is not a "game construct." That's not the best example though, because a shit ton of D&D is stuff the players make up. There's not much in the way of game constructs at all, much less ones that would function the way the ones in an electronic RPG would. And I think the DM being a construct is arguable. Sure the person isn't, but the role sure as hell is, and the game can't be played without one. I'm laboring under the assumption that what Hussie said about the Horrorterror's creating Universe A was a joke, or at the very least not something we can be sure of. And the function they serve is very similar to what is explicitly a game construct: Skaia and the visions it provides. Er...where is it explicitly said that Skaia is a game construct? I haven't seen that. In fact, the way it's described, it seems to be some kind of numinous force, the wellspring of all creative energy. When Rose discussed how the Scratch worked for their universe, although she often uses terms specific to that universe, her description is clearly meant to be generic--and she always refers to Skaia as a singular entity. It's never "all Skaias do x," as though each incipisphere had its own "copy" of Skaia. The (IMO rather strong) implication is that there is only one Skaia--it just touches every incipisphere. Certainly, there's nothing I can see which explicitly states that Skaia is created by Sburb; if anything, it really seems like all of the game's content is coming from Skaia, typically by inspiration or meteor-assisted-tech since Skaia doesn't act. Doesn't there kind of have to be multiple Skaias, given Dead Sessions destroy them? And the way Skaia functions and the way there seems to be a new one every game kind of screams 'game construct' to me. Honest question: how does what Aradia say imply that? Because maybe I just didn't sleep well enough last night but I don't see it. To me it just sounds like she said Skaia and the Horroterrors both work to make trials for players to pass to prove they're worthy of a Universe, which....kind of sounds to me like what you'd expect bits of a game to do. It is the Trials that are the game, not the people who make the trials. There are a crap ton of games that have NPCs that give the players quests to do, though.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 21, 2016 21:42:40 GMT
Alright sure, but why does that mean they can't be game constructs again? For the same reason that "gravity" can't be a game construct even though it is used in Sburb frequently. That's not the best example though, because a shit ton of D&D is stuff the players make up. There's not much in the way of game constructs at all, much less ones that would function the way the ones in an electronic RPG would. And I think the DM being a construct is arguable. Sure the person isn't, but the role sure as hell is, and the game can't be played without one. But which of those are the Horrorterrors? Are they the "person" or the "role"? Because it seems to me that you're conflating the role the Horrorterrors fulfill (giving advice and assistance to the Derse players) with the Horrorterrors themselves. The former, the role, is absolutely a game construct. But, as with the human DM, the latter is not. Doesn't there kind of have to be multiple Skaias, given Dead Sessions destroy them? And the way Skaia functions and the way there seems to be a new one every game kind of screams 'game construct' to me. Er, no? Consider, for instance, the Avatars of the various deities in Hinduism, or Christ as the Incarnated Deity in Christianity. Each of Vishnu's avatars dies at some point (except possibly Krishna, but there's no consensus on that front). Does that mean each one is a brand-new Vishnu, totally separate from the others? No, not according to Hindu tradition; each is still fully one and the same Vishnu, just given a temporary mortal instantiation. Similarly, the Christian concept of the Trinity says that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, who is not Yahweh, who is not Jesus, and yet Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and Yahweh is God. Separate persons, one entity. Every Skaia is, of its nature, THE Skaia, touching all the sessions that ever were/are/will be. But each can be an independent existence, and can be destroyed, just as Ramachandra was Vishnu in his essence but could be slain without slaying Vishnu, and just as Jesus could be brutally tortured and executed without slaying his essential nature, God. Note that this is an area of similarity (if this is how Skaia works) to the Denizens. The important difference is that the Denizens only and exclusively exist because Sburb has been made. There is no reason to think Skaia only and exclusively exists because Sburb has been made (by some other, unknown entity?) It is the Trials that are the game, not the people who make the trials. There are a crap ton of games that have NPCs that give the players quests to do, though. NPC questgivers =/= game content creators. NPC quest givers are mechanics, dressed up to look like people, to trigger our instinctive responses to interacting with people. Here, I'll give a few more examples of what I mean. Fully voiced companion characters: Game constructs. Voice actors: Not game constructs. Audio logs, books, memos: Game constructs. Writers and editors: Not game constructs. Sound design and music: Game constructs. Composers: Not game constructs. Presentation and style: Game construct. Artists and renderers: Not game constructs. In every case, you have the game expression of something, and then you have the people who produced that game expression. And in every case, the in-game expression is a game construct, while the producer of that expression is not. The Horrorterrors aren't even the ones giving quests anyway--that stuff is actually handled by sprites and carapacians, not by Skaia or the Horrorterrors. The Horrorterrors and Skaia strike a pact, which defines the minimum requirements for victory in each session. That is not a questgiver handing out a quest, decided by some nebulous other thing. It is a pair of co-authors writing the plot--which they then give mechanical representation to within the game Sburb and all its various constructs. A questgiver can only do what it has been programmed to do. A content creator can actually write brand-new content. That is the essential difference--and both Skaia and the Horrorterrors can create new content, they're just partially at odds, so each limits the reach of the other.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Aug 25, 2016 18:26:28 GMT
Alright sure, but why does that mean they can't be game constructs again? For the same reason that "gravity" can't be a game construct even though it is used in Sburb frequently. Actually, given the Dreamselves limited flight abilities and the God Tiers' ability to fly and the fact that the game is meant to make Universes where gravity is a thing.... That's not the best example though, because a shit ton of D&D is stuff the players make up. There's not much in the way of game constructs at all, much less ones that would function the way the ones in an electronic RPG would. And I think the DM being a construct is arguable. Sure the person isn't, but the role sure as hell is, and the game can't be played without one. But which of those are the Horrorterrors? Are they the "person" or the "role"? Because it seems to me that you're conflating the role the Horrorterrors fulfill (giving advice and assistance to the Derse players) with the Horrorterrors themselves. The former, the role, is absolutely a game construct. But, as with the human DM, the latter is not. And I don't see the Horrorterrors as a human fulfilling the DM role. Doesn't there kind of have to be multiple Skaias, given Dead Sessions destroy them? And the way Skaia functions and the way there seems to be a new one every game kind of screams 'game construct' to me. Er, no? Consider, for instance, the Avatars of the various deities in Hinduism, or Christ as the Incarnated Deity in Christianity. Each of Vishnu's avatars dies at some point (except possibly Krishna, but there's no consensus on that front). Does that mean each one is a brand-new Vishnu, totally separate from the others? No, not according to Hindu tradition; each is still fully one and the same Vishnu, just given a temporary mortal instantiation. Similarly, the Christian concept of the Trinity says that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, who is not Yahweh, who is not Jesus, and yet Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and Yahweh is God. Separate persons, one entity. Every Skaia is, of its nature, THE Skaia, touching all the sessions that ever were/are/will be. But each can be an independent existence, and can be destroyed, just as Ramachandra was Vishnu in his essence but could be slain without slaying Vishnu, and just as Jesus could be brutally tortured and executed without slaying his essential nature, God. I don't actually see much that ties Skaia to any of those things, but none of that means it's not a game construct. Every time you boot up a game after finishing it you have to talk to the same NPCs and beat the same challenges and bosses, even after the latter was destroyed the last time you played because you beat them. That doesn't mean those things aren't game constructs. It is the Trials that are the game, not the people who make the trials. There are a crap ton of games that have NPCs that give the players quests to do, though. NPC questgivers =/= game content creators. NPC quest givers are mechanics, dressed up to look like people, to trigger our instinctive responses to interacting with people. Here, I'll give a few more examples of what I mean. That's assuming Horrorterrors are game content creators, which I don't.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 25, 2016 23:38:06 GMT
Then where, AC, does Sburb come from? If Sburb creates the Horrorterrors and Skaia (via some unknown means), why does it exist? Even paradox clones have an explanation, it's just a closed timelike curve (circular causality).
Why ignore such a convenient, clearly-placed example in order to make up some other thing?
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Post by comicalArchitect on Aug 30, 2016 14:43:17 GMT
Then where, AC, does Sburb come from? If Sburb creates the Horrorterrors and Skaia (via some unknown means), why does it exist? Even paradox clones have an explanation, it's just a closed timelike curve (circular causality). Why ignore such a convenient, clearly-placed example in order to make up some other thing? Genesis frogs evolved to have SBURB as their reproductive system, just like normal organisms in the real world. To ask where genesis frogs come from is basically to ask where life comes from, which we haven't even answered in the real world.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Aug 30, 2016 16:05:05 GMT
To ask where genesis frogs come from is basically to ask where life comes from, which we haven't even answered in the real world. We pretty much have answered both of those already. Then where, AC, does Sburb come from? If Sburb creates the Horrorterrors and Skaia (via some unknown means), why does it exist? Even paradox clones have an explanation, it's just a closed timelike curve (circular causality). Sburb is also created with a time loop. The code for the game is inscribed in the frog temple walls as hieroglyphs. Then someone like Grandpa or Aradia/Sollux finds them and creates Sburb, in which the frog temple is created in the first place. Then the game can be used to create a Genesis Frog, which naturally possesses the same sort of time loop, because that time loop is crucial to the frog's reproductive system.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Aug 31, 2016 8:32:15 GMT
Then where, AC, does Sburb come from? If Sburb creates the Horrorterrors and Skaia (via some unknown means), why does it exist? Even paradox clones have an explanation, it's just a closed timelike curve (circular causality). Why ignore such a convenient, clearly-placed example in order to make up some other thing? Genesis frogs evolved to have SBURB as their reproductive system, just like normal organisms in the real world. To ask where genesis frogs come from is basically to ask where life comes from, which we haven't even answered in the real world. What selective pressures could possibly exist for such beings before Sburb became a thing? Evolution cannot happen in the absence of selective pressure,* and Sburb creates an enormous amount of negative selective pressure (as we've been explicitly told, most Sburb sessions fail.) They don't eat, they don't breathe, and the only one we've seen die was directly killed, so they appear to be functionally immortal (that is, they only die if slain, not of old age or "disease"). This would seem to suggest that evolving Sburb is not only unlikely, but should be heavily selected against--it is, from what we've seen, the only cause of death Genesis Frogs have. And how does this alleged evolutionary development of Sburb create the Horrorterrors, which exist entirely outside the Genesis Frogs? If anything, you're arguing for the Horrorterrors' pre-existence anyway, because they're the only candidates we have for anything that might "predate" on Genesis Frogs. There's also the issue, again, of whether this analogy actually pertains to the subject. Because, to my eyes, the analogy you're drawing has a serious flaw, namely that it's perfectly valid to ask why (for example) there are specifically human beings, and that answer can be (in fact, should be) different from the answer to "why is there life?" Human beings exist because tree shrews adapted bigger bodies to better navigate trees, and bigger brains to more easily navigate those complex 3d spaces, and then some of them stopped living in trees and started using tools and fire. That's a very, very different answer from why there's life at all. Plus...why are the Horrorterrors not considered separate organisms in this hypothetical environment? See the aforementioned suggestion that they in fact predate on the Frogs. *Technically, this is a simplification, but "neutral" evolution doesn't influence visible traits or reproduction rates, so the simplification to only "selectionist" evolution is warranted. To ask where genesis frogs come from is basically to ask where life comes from, which we haven't even answered in the real world. We pretty much have answered both of those already. Er, no, actually, we don't know "where life comes from," in the sense of what process produced life on Earth initially. The purpose of the theory of evolution is to show how new forms of life arise out of old ones. The actual origin of life--"abiogenesis" is the technical term--remains a mystery. The Miller-Urey experiment, for example, has demonstrated that many basic organic molecules (primarily amino acids) can be generated in sealed containers mimicking Earth's early conditions as long as energy sources are added (typically sparks, intense heat, or of all things proton bombardment)--but never the development of anything self-assembling, to say nothing of the (surely more-developed) cellular structures of current Earth life. As a note: evolution doesn't need any particular theory of how life got here, any more than you need to know the way star systems develop in order to predict Earth's weather, so please don't misconstrue this as me arguing against evolution. I'm just saying, we really, genuinely do not know where life came from. There's a lot of speculation but very little in the way of hard facts. Argument by analogy only works when the analogy holds, and again, I don't think it does. Then where, AC, does Sburb come from? If Sburb creates the Horrorterrors and Skaia (via some unknown means), why does it exist? Even paradox clones have an explanation, it's just a closed timelike curve (circular causality). Sburb is also created with a time loop. The code for the game is inscribed in the frog temple walls as hieroglyphs. Then someone like Grandpa or Aradia/Sollux finds them and creates Sburb, in which the frog temple is created in the first place. Then the game can be used to create a Genesis Frog, which naturally possesses the same sort of time loop, because that time loop is crucial to the frog's reproductive system. You're talking about the code of the game, but that's not what I meant. I don't mean "each individual game, such as that played by John." I mean why does Sburb-- all Sburb, every single instance of it--exist? You're completely right that the code for the game exists in a self-causing loop, each session generating the Frog Temple that will transmit the code for that session. But why do all the many sessions of Sburb exist at all? It's a valid question. My answer is that Sburb and the Horrorterrors are why Sburb exists: Skaia wants to enable infinite creation, the Horrorterrors don't want that, and the two hash out a deal--which is known as Sburb, with Genesis Frogs as its natural (if uncommon) product. The great, infinite chain of Sburb universes cannot be explained circularly, unless we commit to the idea that there are only a finite number of possible universes, which would seem contrary to the various background info we've heard about how the game works. Without that, it's just a weird infinite chain, completely divergent from all the other stuff in Pspace (which either fits neatly into linear, point-to-point causality inside Frogs, or fits into circular causality in Pspace).
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Post by obsidalicious on Aug 31, 2016 9:30:32 GMT
What selective pressures could possibly exist for such beings before Sburb became a thing? Evolution cannot happen in the absence of selective pressure, and Sburb creates an enormous amount of negative selective pressure (as we've been explicitly told, most Sburb sessions fail.) They don't eat, they don't breathe, and the only one we've seen die was directly killed, so they appear to be functionally immortal (that is, they only die if slain, not of old age or "disease"). This would seem to suggest that evolving Sburb is not only unlikely, but should be heavily selected against--it is, from what we've seen, the only cause of death Genesis Frogs have. And how does this alleged evolutionary development of Sburb create the Horrorterrors, which exist entirely outside the Genesis Frogs? If anything, you're arguing for the Horrorterrors' pre-existence anyway, because they're the only candidates we have for anything that might "predate" on Genesis Frogs. There's also the issue, again, of whether this analogy actually pertains to the subject. Because, to my eyes, the analogy you're drawing has a serious flaw, namely that it's perfectly valid to ask why (for example) there are specifically human beings, and that answer can be (in fact, should be) different from the answer to "why is there life?" Human beings exist because tree shrews adapted bigger bodies to better navigate trees, and bigger brains to more easily navigate those complex 3d spaces, and then some of them stopped living in trees and started using tools and fire. That's a very, very different answer from why there's life at all. Plus...why are the Horrorterrors not considered separate organisms in this hypothetical environment? See the aforementioned suggestion that they in fact predate on the Frogs. Actually I think Natural Selection could apply to the Genesis/Frog system. When good players win a session, not only will they create a healthy universe, but, in their care and guidance of the civilisations to come, the next generation of players will be better equipped and educated than those in other universes, and thus, more likely to succeed in continuing that lineage. Thus a selective pressure towards better 'parenting' for lack of a better term. Additionally, Calliope did say: "all Universes die at some point. some sooner than others." Since a Universe that is killed of earlier likely won't have as many offspring, there would also be a selective pressure for universes that can protect themselves. Here, similar to the first point, Competent Custodians and Competent Players mean that anomalous entities and conditions like Bec Noir are less likely to occur, thus one less source of Cosmic mortality. As for how said natural selection could make the Sburb system arise in the first place: Well the obvious possibility is that having such a system that allows the transference of (ex)mortals from parent to child sets up a better survival chance for the reasons stated above. In addition, this selection would favour universes that, in some way, ensure that said mortals i.e. the players, are competent which could result in the series of trials known as Sburb to test the players at make sure they're ready before the system dedicates an enormous amount of resources towards a new Universe being looked after by idiots. There's no reason to think that a given universe can only have one child. Thus the model at play here is a branching tree. So it could be the case that one particular branch of this tree reaches around to form the casual origin, while all the other branches are free to bud off into infinity. That way, we'd have a circular origin without having to limit the number of universes. Besides that, is it not possible to have a loop of infinite size? Though I'd have no idea how you could practically prove you were in an infinite loop, it'd just look like and endless line in both directions.
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Georgie
Plucky Tot
Mage of Breath, apparently.
Posts: 27
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by Georgie on Aug 31, 2016 10:26:55 GMT
My answer is that Sburb and the Horrorterrors are why Sburb exists: Skaia wants to enable infinite creation, the Horrorterrors don't want that, and the two hash out a deal--which is known as Sburb, with Genesis Frogs as its natural (if uncommon) product. The great, infinite chain of Sburb universes cannot be explained circularly, unless we commit to the idea that there are only a finite number of possible universes, which would seem contrary to the various background info we've heard about how the game works. Without that, it's just a weird infinite chain, completely divergent from all the other stuff in Pspace (which either fits neatly into linear, point-to-point causality inside Frogs, or fits into circular causality in Pspace). Honestly, I believe that this is most likely the best explanation that there is. In the beginning, only the horrorterrors and Furthest Ring existed. Exactly how they came to be is irrelevant, but it may be the case that we are simply not intended to know (Lovecraft, eldritch abominations and all of that). Then, along comes Skaia. People have come up with many theories that explain its existence, many of which make reference to Gnosticism, about which I know nothing. Now, Skaia wants to create and create everything forever, but doing so would stabilise the Furthest Ring, gradually erasing it. At best, the horrorterrors would be forced out of their home, and, at worst, they would be destroyed. Therefore, in order to prevent their end, the horrorterrors make a deal with Skaia: they will only allow it to create discrete universes, which are stable spacetime "bubbles" of sorts that float around in the Furthest Ring. (I say "discrete" since it is implied in the comic that universes, for their size and all of their different instances and timelines, have finite, absolute space and time.) Because Skaia wishes for universes to continue to be created indefinitely, it and the horrorterrors also come up with the Game, which is designed to allow for restricted universal reproduction, preventing the total number of universes from increasing exponentially and overwhelming the horrorterrors. The two parties decide that the mortal inhabitants of universes must be the ones responsible for their propagation and that they have to go through trials in order to do so, as the creation of new universes would spiral out of control if it were left to Skaia alone. Furthermore, Skaia somewhat enjoys interacting with its children directly, and it helps if the creators of one universe are suitably equipped to groom and assist the creators of the next. The Game is also responsible for the existence of incipispheres, which are essentially miniature universes that form a protective barrier between universes (which take the form of frogs, for some reason) and the Furthest Ring. As part of the deal, the horrorterrors also get to interact with players directly once they have entered their incipisphere. (I also like to think that the horroterrors eventually consume dead incipispheres and universes, sweetening the deal for them, but I have nothing to back that up.) There's no reason to think that a given universe can only have one child. Thus the model at play here is a branching tree. So it could be the case that one particular branch of this tree reaches around to form the casual origin, while all the other branches are free to bud off into infinity. That way, we'd have a circular origin without having to limit the number of universes. This is a good point. It's entirely possible that the Game arose as part of a stable time loop, much like many other entities in the comic. I, however, would find that quite dissatisfying.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
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Post by imglasses on Aug 31, 2016 19:28:51 GMT
You're talking about the code of the game, but that's not what I meant. I don't mean "each individual game, such as that played by John." I mean why does Sburb-- all Sburb, every single instance of it--exist? You're completely right that the code for the game exists in a self-causing loop, each session generating the Frog Temple that will transmit the code for that session. But why do all the many sessions of Sburb exist at all? It's a valid question. My answer is that Sburb and the Horrorterrors are why Sburb exists: Skaia wants to enable infinite creation, the Horrorterrors don't want that, and the two hash out a deal--which is known as Sburb, with Genesis Frogs as its natural (if uncommon) product. The great, infinite chain of Sburb universes cannot be explained circularly, unless we commit to the idea that there are only a finite number of possible universes, which would seem contrary to the various background info we've heard about how the game works. Without that, it's just a weird infinite chain, completely divergent from all the other stuff in Pspace (which either fits neatly into linear, point-to-point causality inside Frogs, or fits into circular causality in Pspace). Each Genesis Frog explains the existence of the next Sburb sessions, which explain the existence of new Genesis Frogs, etc. To explain why the whole system exists in the first place, you'd have to trace the sequence back to its origin. If evolution is at play, the system may have simply originated in a case of abiogenesis (as is presumably the case with life on Earth), resulting in a very simple life form, that, over some astronomically large period of time, evolved into the Genesis Frog, with Sburb as its effective means of reproduction.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Sept 1, 2016 1:14:03 GMT
You're talking about the code of the game, but that's not what I meant. I don't mean "each individual game, such as that played by John." I mean why does Sburb-- all Sburb, every single instance of it--exist? You're completely right that the code for the game exists in a self-causing loop, each session generating the Frog Temple that will transmit the code for that session. But why do all the many sessions of Sburb exist at all? It's a valid question. My answer is that Sburb and the Horrorterrors are why Sburb exists: Skaia wants to enable infinite creation, the Horrorterrors don't want that, and the two hash out a deal--which is known as Sburb, with Genesis Frogs as its natural (if uncommon) product. The great, infinite chain of Sburb universes cannot be explained circularly, unless we commit to the idea that there are only a finite number of possible universes, which would seem contrary to the various background info we've heard about how the game works. Without that, it's just a weird infinite chain, completely divergent from all the other stuff in Pspace (which either fits neatly into linear, point-to-point causality inside Frogs, or fits into circular causality in Pspace). Each Genesis Frog explains the existence of the next Sburb sessions, which explain the existence of new Genesis Frogs, etc. To explain why the whole system exists in the first place, you'd have to trace the sequence back to its origin. If evolution is at play, the system may have simply originated in a case of abiogenesis (as is presumably the case with life on Earth), resulting in a very simple life form, that, over some astronomically large period of time, evolved into the Genesis Frog, with Sburb as its effective means of reproduction. The major problem here being, as stated, we have no reason to think evolution is at play, what with a total lack of evolutionary pressure. Just like matter, the process called "life" has its own form of "inertia" and "friction": in the absence of an externally-applied selective force, evolutionary adaptation does not occur; in real animals, when selective pressure is removed, adaptation in that direction ceases. That is, it's impossible to completely remove selective pressures IRL, unlike in Homestuck. If Pspace was completely empty--that is, if the Horrorterrors truly are game constructs and thus only exist because Sburb exists, aka were brought into existence by Sburb--then there is literally nothing in Pspace to exert evolutionary pressure on whatever hypothetical "life" there was. Genesis Frogs don't eat, drink, photosynthesize or chemosynthesize, so there can be no competition for resources; Pspace has an inexhaustible (but somehow non-resistive*) supply of air; Pspace as we know it has no native life forms in it other than the Horrorterrors and Genesis Frogs, so there can be no predation; Genesis Frogs don't move, so there can be no competition for space; and Genesis Frogs don't mate, so there can be no competition for reproduction. There literally are no evolutionary pressures on Genesis Frogs, neither at the time of the comic nor in the hypothetical pre-Sburb past, which could possibly drive evolution. So. Why are we applying an evolutionary argument to something that lacks a critical component--the pressure to adapt? Genesis Frogs don't even reproduce or fail to reproduce on the basis of their genes--if they did, Universe B should have failed to reproduce. Instead, their survival is based on other creatures' actions (namely, the various players that universe produces), and can overcome even faulty Frog genetics (as the terminal Universe B demonstrates, by still producing offspring even after "death.") As I've said several times now, arguments by analogy only work insofar as the analogy is relevant to the situation. Using an evolutionary analogy where adaptation has no reason to occur is a bad analogy. *That is, no matter where a living player goes in Pspace, there's always air to breathe--even near the Green Sun. But this air doesn't resist the motion of objects through it; if it did, the troll meteor would have exploded almost immediately after being accelerated to any appreciable fraction of the speed of light. So Pspace basically has air only when you need it, and not when it would be inconvenient. This isn't unprecedented, since it has electrical power and internet access only when you need it and not when it would be inconvenient, but it is worth noting as a bit of divergent physics.
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