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Post by obsidalicious on May 3, 2016 4:48:25 GMT
obsidalicious You're forgetting that being near Calliope also allowed Roxy to create the matriorb she'd been struggling with making beforehand, a much more clear example of granting someone mastery of their abilities within the domain of Space. That's a good point. But even here I'm still not sure that 'Mastery' is necessarily the best term for it. I think it's a bit of a Stretch to say that Roxy obtained Mastery over Space when all she really did was get a slightly better understanding of a particular idea that's somewhat related to the Aspect. Not to mention that despite what Roxy said, her Summoning Process went through Troll History and so forth, without the Space symbol showing up or anything.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 3, 2016 5:05:52 GMT
obsidalicious You're forgetting that being near Calliope also allowed Roxy to create the matriorb she'd been struggling with making beforehand, a much more clear example of granting someone mastery of their abilities within the domain of Space. That's a good point. But even here I'm still not sure that 'Mastery' is necessarily the best term for it. I think it's a bit of a Stretch to say that Roxy obtained Mastery over Space when all she really did was get a slightly better understanding of a particular idea that's somewhat related to the Aspect. Not to mention that despite what Roxy said, her Summoning Process went through Troll History and so forth, without the Space symbol showing up or anything. Well I think it would be more accurate to say that Roxy mastered a Void ability through Space, not that she mastered Space.
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 3, 2016 8:32:15 GMT
Yeah, if somebody put a pop-o-matic hammer to my head and demanded that I give a verb for Lord/Muse, I'd say "master." Lords master X, or cause mastery of X (see: his immortality curse). Muses allow X to be mastered, or invite mastery through X (e.g. Roxy achieving mastery over Stealing Void to produce a Matriorb, an object strongly associated with Space).
God Tier Calliope creating the black hole can be seen as allowing Space (location, extension) to be mastered (irresistibly controlled) by an entity separate from herself and beyond her control. Caliborn, as Lord English, becomes responsible for nearly everything that occurs in the story of Homestuck, sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. Most of the other villains are either his direct servants or empowered/controlled by them (Bec Noir is probably the only exception). He's not just in control of Time, the fabric of time within the Homestuck story inherently reflects his will. He is eternally Already There because he IS the past and he IS the future, in a metaphorical sense anyway. He has mastered Death, Inevitability, and Causality--core facets of Time.
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Gilian Zorybo
Plucky Tot
 
Kinda getting there.
Posts: 26
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by Gilian Zorybo on May 3, 2016 9:17:11 GMT
Well, that's true, no sense denying that. But generally, the point still stands on Mages not being "knowers" that's always been the central argument I've been talking about. Sollux never boasted about his own knowledge being key to whatever problem the SGRUB session faced, especially as the prophecy concerning his group ceased to mean anything the moment the group left their session, and though Meulin's knowledge might be touted around, her own knowledge had proven to be detrimental to those around her and herself. But in general, there's a theme of "losing things" with Mages. When we boil down what it is that Meulin and Sollux do share, it's that they seem to have something that they cared for at the beginning, only to lose it by the start of the session, and it affects their decisions and choices. For Sollux, Aradia's death was an important moment for him. For Meulin, it was that moment when she lost her sense of hearing when Kurloz had unintentionally(?) hurt her. Still, "losing things" is a pretty general thing to happen to everyone who plays the game, after all, they've lost their whole planet including everyone and everything they had cared for with it, so maybe we should focus on this even further. When I say "losing things" is a theme for Mages, it's that when Mages are constantly searching for that one important thing they've lost. They try to reclaim it by looking for someone or something that they can do in order to revive or replace whatever it is they've lost, only to have what they've almost gained wrenched away in trying to regain it, either through failure, or forces outside of their control. Whether or not Meulin was controlled, the main fact was that she had problems with her romantic pursuits whether it might have been rekindling her romance with Kurloz or some other reason, the same way Sollux seemed to have a problem of losing girlfriends to forces beyond his control. You know those stories of people who tried to bring back a loved one from the dead, only to realize that the revived is only a shadow of themselves and losing them just as quickly? The Mage's story is something similar to that. After all of this i'd say a mage is one that "is affected or influenced his/her will by his/her aspect's effects" also "that who has to live his life carried by his/her aspect's influence" So in short "influenced by his aspect's effects". Sollux always followed and got influenced by the voices of the dead. Meulin got his life changed (became deaf) by events in her relationship and still lived with his love for Kurloz influencing her.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 3, 2016 9:57:26 GMT
After all of this i'd say a mage is one that "is affected or influenced his/her will by his/her aspect's effects" also "that who has to live his life carried by his/her aspect's influence" So in short "influenced by his aspect's effects". Sollux always followed and got influenced by the voices of the dead. Meulin got his life changed (became deaf) by events in her relationship and still lived with his love for Kurloz influencing her. That seems way too general. You could describe multiple classpects that way.
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 3, 2016 10:21:31 GMT
Yeah...I mean, wasn't Vriska's life extremely influenced by Luck? Hasn't Kanaya's life been pretty much DEFINED by various elements of Space?
Part of the problem, also, is that this is...going to be really hard to parse for whatever Mage's paired class is. "One who allows being affected or influenced by X" or "one who invites others to have to live their lives carried by X's influence" is...well, awkward phrasing at best, and even MORE universal than the original. I mean, doesn't Roxy allow others to be affected or influenced by Void? She blacked out her whole session, after all.
Out of curiosity, what class DO you pair Mage with, Gilian? (Given your choice of words, I'm assuming it's not Seer, so I'm curious, as I don't pair Mage/Seer either.)
Edit: Long story short, I don't like verbs that are so general they can describe any action. "Exploit" is a verb I dislike, because it's really just a fancy synonym for "use (very well)," and every class needs to use their aspect to do stuff! "Steal" and "Destroy" give us example verbs that are evocative, and in a "goldilocks zone" of breadth. They're narrow enough that we can clearly see what they cannot do, but broad enough that they aren't pigeonholed into a single activity. (I'll note that I make a minor exception for Lord/Muse, because they are not part of the "standard" classes.)
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Post by Neptz on May 3, 2016 15:12:10 GMT
While the idea of Mastery sounds good on paper, and it certainly applies to Caliborn in many ways. I don't quite see how we could apply it to Calliope. Pretty much the only Space related things that Calliope(any version) has done is A) Be isolated(shared with her brother, so does that even count?) B) Be somewhat artistically inclined(But said art had no real effect on anything) and C) Make a Blackhole that did ... something. Clearly the Blackhole is the droid we're looking for here so let's examine that: It is certainly a clear cut case of Allowing the Aspect, as she simply made the Black Hole and just let it do Black Holey things as a Black Hole is wont to do. But is it Mastery over Space? I think that it'd be reasonable to say that this is a "High Level" technique, but I very much doubt that the path of the Muse is simply 'be powerfuller than others'. Classes are specific Roles or Behaviours that are imposed on the Aspect and a 'Role' of 'One who Gits Gud at Aspect' is far to broad and bland in my opinion. However, since we didn't actually get to really see for sure what the Blackhole did, it's rather difficult to pin down what role Calliope, as the instigator, fulfilled there. I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass but a english grammar tip: the word black hole, the word mastery, the word allowing, the word high level, the world role, the word behaviour, the word one, the word git and gud are not to be capitalized unless under very specific circumstances. No, they don't feel any more special if you capitalize them.
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Post by humbleElitist on May 3, 2016 18:04:10 GMT
While the idea of Mastery sounds good on paper, and it certainly applies to Caliborn in many ways. I don't quite see how we could apply it to Calliope. Pretty much the only Space related things that Calliope(any version) has done is A) Be isolated(shared with her brother, so does that even count?) B) Be somewhat artistically inclined(But said art had no real effect on anything) and C) Make a Blackhole that did ... something. Clearly the Blackhole is the droid we're looking for here so let's examine that: It is certainly a clear cut case of Allowing the Aspect, as she simply made the Black Hole and just let it do Black Holey things as a Black Hole is wont to do. But is it Mastery over Space? I think that it'd be reasonable to say that this is a "High Level" technique, but I very much doubt that the path of the Muse is simply 'be powerfuller than others'. Classes are specific Roles or Behaviours that are imposed on the Aspect and a 'Role' of 'One who Gits Gud at Aspect' is far to broad and bland in my opinion. However, since we didn't actually get to really see for sure what the Blackhole did, it's rather difficult to pin down what role Calliope, as the instigator, fulfilled there. I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass but a english grammar tip: the word black hole, the word mastery, the word allowing, the word high level, the world role, the word behaviour, the word one, the word git and gud are not to be capitalized unless under very specific circumstances. No, they don't feel any more special if you capitalize them. spoiling for long and irrelevant to the discussion.
Using nonstandard (or different standard) for English is not really, illegitimate?
Like, for example, see how I used that question mark there? ( <-- but not how I used it here)
That isn't a proper usage either, but it is useful for expressing things how I want to. The first use of a question mark in the part of this post that isn't in quotes is not really used to indicate a question, but rather, to indicate inflection, and somewhat express "uncertainty". Except, it isn't really uncertainty in what it is saying exactly, it is more like, expressing uncertainty as a rhetorical move, or something like that. It also doubles as expressing legitimate uncertainty about whether "illegitimate" was the right word to use.
Other examples include my use of quote marks around "uncertainty" , to indicate something like "not in the fullest sense of the word".
Similarly, a number of the commas in this comment aren't needed for the grammar of the sentence, but are included to express a pause for rhetorical purposes, or something along those lines.
I might be using the word "rhetorical" to mean something that isn't quite the right thing in this comment. Basically I mean any part of what this comment expresses other than the propositions expressed. Things like communicating an attitude towards something this post is stating.
There is a relatively common practice of capitalizing things to emphasize that they are key words, or something like that. Apparently, putting parts of a terms and conditions thing in all caps actually has a legal purpose of emphasis.
tl;dr : Using 'nonstandard' things like capitalizing words to indicate something about them is something that people generally understand well enough, and isn't really all that uncommon. Why are you complaining about it?
Also, capitalizing parts of the title of something isn't even particularly nonstandard.
I doubt that you were actually sorry "to be a pain in the ass", and really were motivated entirely by a desire to remove ignorance. Wasn't it obvious that they were choosing to use different rules, not ignorant of rules?
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Post by Neptz on May 3, 2016 19:23:07 GMT
Could be, I guess. I am legitimately sorry, though. It's just that a lot of people capitalize words for literally no particular reason, they typically tend to be german or from another language. I didn't know that about english, though. If you capitalize any real word like that in portuguese, my language, you will get (metaphorically) hit. This is probably bias from that.
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Post by ashercrane on May 3, 2016 19:23:20 GMT
I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass but a english grammar tip: the word black hole, the word mastery, the word allowing, the word high level, the world role, the word behaviour, the word one, the word git and gud are not to be capitalized unless under very specific circumstances. No, they don't feel any more special if you capitalize them. spoiling for long and irrelevant to the discussion. *Snep* It's entirely possible that Obsid didn't realize they were capitalizing like that, but whether you're right or wrong, I think I can safetly say this is one of the circumstances where if they wanted to defend themself, they would have, and did not need you to do it for them. Yeah...I mean, wasn't Vriska's life extremely influenced by Luck? Hasn't Kanaya's life been pretty much DEFINED by various elements of Space? Part of the problem, also, is that this is...going to be really hard to parse for whatever Mage's paired class is. "One who allows being affected or influenced by X" or "one who invites others to have to live their lives carried by X's influence" is...well, awkward phrasing at best, and even MORE universal than the original. I mean, doesn't Roxy allow others to be affected or influenced by Void? She blacked out her whole session, after all. Out of curiosity, what class DO you pair Mage with, Gilian? (Given your choice of words, I'm assuming it's not Seer, so I'm curious, as I don't pair Mage/Seer either.) Edit: Long story short, I don't like verbs that are so general they can describe any action. "Exploit" is a verb I dislike, because it's really just a fancy synonym for "use (very well)," and every class needs to use their aspect to do stuff! "Steal" and "Destroy" give us example verbs that are evocative, and in a "goldilocks zone" of breadth. They're narrow enough that we can clearly see what they cannot do, but broad enough that they aren't pigeonholed into a single activity. (I'll note that I make a minor exception for Lord/Muse, because they are not part of the "standard" classes.) I find it aggrivating to figure out the Mage's verb. Going by Meulin, she was said to be a good matchmaker, and since Heart means the soul, I figured it means she was good at pairing up matching true selves together. But while I do see how that works, I don't know exactly what kind of a verb that would be. Could be, I guess. I am legitimately sorry, though. It's just that a lot of people capitalize words for literally no particular reason, they typically tend to be german or from another language. I didn't know that about english, though. If you capitalize any real word like that in portuguese, my language, you will get (metaphorically) hit. This is probably bias from that. Don't feel bad about it. A lot of people tend to play it pretty loose with the english language. If I had read through the post more intently, I would have figured he'd used it be accident as well. I've never seen capitalizing only the first letter to put emphases on anything outside HS itself. (All caps I have, but not the first letter)
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Post by humbleElitist on May 4, 2016 4:50:09 GMT
dangit
sorry
I should have assumed better intent on your part than I did. I was being uncharitable.
I apologize.
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 4, 2016 5:29:18 GMT
I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass but a english grammar tip: the word black hole, the word mastery, the word allowing, the word high level, the world role, the word behaviour, the word one, the word git and gud are not to be capitalized unless under very specific circumstances. No, they don't feel any more special if you capitalize them. HumbleElitist already covered most of my points (and you already know about how German naturally expects ALL nouns to be capitalized), so the only thing I'll add is this. Don't apologize for it. Doing so just sounds like you know it's a rude thing to do but plan on doing it anyway, and that doesn't excuse the rudeness. If you actually want to avoid giving offense, ask a question instead of listing corrections. E.g. "Why are you capitalizing words like black hole, mastery, etc.?" Instead of coming across with condemnation and displeasure, you'll come across as open to new ideas and willing to learn. And neither of those things is an offense! In my case, when I capitalize words without a normal precedent for doing so, it's because I'm trying to "highlight" those words. I'm trying to give them a subtle emphasis that doesn't require italicized text (which, like dashes and parentheses, I tend to over-use). So, for example, if I were going to argue that...certain topics were intimately related to Breath, I might give them capital letters to show that they are very important for that aspect, e.g. "Breath is all about being Free and Dynamic, about keeping your options open and remaining constantly Adaptive." Doing that makes the words Free, Dynamic, and Adaptive stick out from the rest of the sentence--clearly indicating that those concepts are keywords. Just like any grammatical tool, capitalization can be over-used, which dilutes its effectiveness. (Edit: Just so it's clear, I accidentally hit post before adding my response to AsherCrane. I promise I'm not just derailing the thread!  ) And now here's that reply. I find it aggrivating to figure out the Mage's verb. Going by Meulin, she was said to be a good matchmaker, and since Heart means the soul, I figured it means she was good at pairing up matching true selves together. But while I do see how that works, I don't know exactly what kind of a verb that would be. There's a lot of that for several HS classes. Mages, Pages, Witches, and Heirs are all hard to pin down exactly what it is they're doing to or with their aspects. For me, I compared Meulin's case to Sollux's, and tried to see if any kind of mini-pattern resulted. The thing that really struck me was, the two of them achieve things other people don't even think are possible, let alone practical. Karkat doubts that the Mobius Double Reacharound Virus code is valid, for example, and Sollux manages to translate the frog temple ruin codes into not just meaningful text, but the code of a video game. But at the same time, the two of them are rarely, if ever, able to see the consequences of the things they do/make. Meulin is fantastic, even preternaturally gifted, at setting up relationships, but she clearly has no idea what a GOOD relationship or a BAD relationship is (see: her clearly-forced relationship with Horuss, the damage done to her by her relationship with Kurloz). Sollux is gifted with computers, capable of wrangling even Sburb's item codes, but he had no idea that the game he coded was responsible for creating the portals by which the meteors would destroy his world. He could employ the English "summoning" virus, but had no idea what it was or what it accomplished. These reflections were what led me to my original Mage verb, "shape." I have since been convinced that that is not a good verb, no matter how much it appeals to me, and have not really found a word I really *like* to replace it. "Serve" is the closest anyone's gotten, and I am...I guess you could say I'm "cognitively but not emotively" convinced about it. Rationally it fits, but my heart isn't in it. Whether that says more about me or the word, I cannot say.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 4, 2016 7:11:56 GMT
For me, I compared Meulin's case to Sollux's, and tried to see if any kind of mini-pattern resulted. The thing that really struck me was, the two of them achieve things other people don't even think are possible, let alone practical. Karkat doubts that the Mobius Double Reacharound Virus code is valid, for example, and Sollux manages to translate the frog temple ruin codes into not just meaningful text, but the code of a video game. But at the same time, the two of them are rarely, if ever, able to see the consequences of the things they do/make. Meulin is fantastic, even preternaturally gifted, at setting up relationships, but she clearly has no idea what a GOOD relationship or a BAD relationship is (see: her clearly-forced relationship with Horuss, the damage done to her by her relationship with Kurloz). Sollux is gifted with computers, capable of wrangling even Sburb's item codes, but he had no idea that the game he coded was responsible for creating the portals by which the meteors would destroy his world. He could employ the English "summoning" virus, but had no idea what it was or what it accomplished. These reflections were what led me to my original Mage verb, "shape." I have since been convinced that that is not a good verb, no matter how much it appeals to me, and have not really found a word I really *like* to replace it. "Serve" is the closest anyone's gotten, and I am...I guess you could say I'm "cognitively but not emotively" convinced about it. Rationally it fits, but my heart isn't in it. Whether that says more about me or the word, I cannot say. *nods* This was one of the reasons I liked Mages as the counterpart to Seers, because Rose describes her function as 'knowing shit about the big picture.... But the insides of [her] shoes stay free from the grit of the minutia.' Mages seem to be the type to miss the forest for the trees. So between a Seer and a Mage, they'd be able to see both the forest and its trees.
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 4, 2016 12:32:41 GMT
*nods* This was one of the reasons I liked Mages as the counterpart to Seers, because Rose describes her function as 'knowing shit about the big picture.... But the insides of [her] shoes stay free from the grit of the minutia.' Mages seem to be the type to miss the forest for the trees. So between a Seer and a Mage, they'd be able to see both the forest and its trees. I look at it and see the opposite: just as both a Prince and a Bard destroy, in themselves or in others, and it's just the nature of the destruction that changes, whatever a Mage pairs with should also be involved in seemingly-impossible, miraculous effects. That is, people seem to think that the active/passive split should be "antithetical" in as many ways as possible, for lack of a better term, and I think that's a really wrong-headed way of looking at it. What's "active" about knowing minutiae? What's "passive" about having access to more, and better, information? That seems like a great way to accidentally pair completely unrelated classes. So, instead, we should look for a distinctly passive-seeming class that also seems to participate in the miracle-work thing--but as an enabler, assister, facilitator, etc. rather than a direct, personal agent. Ideally, it should also be a class whose members struggle with really understanding their aspect, despite being capable of incredible things with it, and having all the information they need presented up front. Fortunately, we have just such a class: Page. Pages are shown to have incredible power; as much as the word "awesome" is abused, their power truly can inspire awe, and yet it also primarily works in or with other people rather than themselves. Even post-clock-breaking Caliborn wasn't able to resist Jake's Hopesphere. Tavros, as Page of Breath, was able to do the impossible: befriend seemingly infinite ghosts, and actually be FRIENDS with them, and through that friendship, get them to be willing to risk their afterlives for his cause. A feat Vriska legitimately believed impossible, before she just sort of rode with it (in a certain sense, literally). Yet at the same time, Pages fundamentally struggle with understanding their aspects, having major issues with even the simplest tasks because their boneheaded perceptions are so off-kilter that they just make no sense whatsoever. There is, though, one really interesting way that the two do form a different--and in my opinion much "stronger"--antithetical pair than just "sees details SUPER WELL" vs. "sees general stuff, which can include details." This was originally posted as part of the "Legendary ZeroTemplar" theory, but basically, Mages and Pages seem to "develop" oppositely. Mages begin as wunderkinds, and then have to learn how to work around and without their powers in the situations and times where they're inappropriate, in order to have any ongoing potential. Pages begin with almost no tools and having to fend for themselves without special aid, but in so doing, eventually grow into (apparently) one of the most powerful classes in Sburb. I'd also like to say that simply knowing details really well doesn't really explain being a "miracle worker." That's pretty clearly a power of actually DOING something to or with your aspect. Hence why I am rather enamored with the idea that the Seer's verb, instead of 'see' or even 'understand,' is perhaps watch. For the passive Seer, "watching" takes the form of observing the external world. And who better to be a literal " watchman" than the Knight of Time? (Okay it's a wordplay-based argument and I *hate* those, I just think that's a funny coincidence.) But seriously, if Knights are protectors and guardians, it makes sense that they would be "watching" their aspect, guarding it and preserving it, as well as "watching" others via their Aspect, protecting their allies from dangerous threats. Where the Seer "watches" the world through the lens of their aspect, and "watches" their aspect and its effect on the world, the Knight acts as policeman and soldier, defending and protecting. It's a nice, simple word, has room for broad interpretation without being so open that you could interpret it as almost anything, and allows us to have Seers that are not fighters paired with Knights who can be (but, as with Karkat, may not ALWAYS be!)
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 4, 2016 13:14:08 GMT
*nods* This was one of the reasons I liked Mages as the counterpart to Seers, because Rose describes her function as 'knowing shit about the big picture.... But the insides of [her] shoes stay free from the grit of the minutia.' Mages seem to be the type to miss the forest for the trees. So between a Seer and a Mage, they'd be able to see both the forest and its trees. I look at it and see the opposite: just as both a Prince and a Bard destroy, in themselves or in others, and it's just the nature of the destruction that changes, whatever a Mage pairs with should also be involved in seemingly-impossible, miraculous effects. That is, people seem to think that the active/passive split should be "antithetical" in as many ways as possible, for lack of a better term, and I think that's a really wrong-headed way of looking at it. What's "active" about knowing minutiae? What's "passive" about having access to more, and better, information? That seems like a great way to accidentally pair completely unrelated classes. I was not saying that two opposing classes should be antithetical. How can they be, when they share a verb? However, I do think that to some degree each member of the pair should cover the bases the other can't.
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Post by ashercrane on May 4, 2016 18:42:10 GMT
I look at it and see the opposite: just as both a Prince and a Bard destroy, in themselves or in others, and it's just the nature of the destruction that changes, whatever a Mage pairs with should also be involved in seemingly-impossible, miraculous effects. That is, people seem to think that the active/passive split should be "antithetical" in as many ways as possible, for lack of a better term, and I think that's a really wrong-headed way of looking at it. What's "active" about knowing minutiae? What's "passive" about having access to more, and better, information? That seems like a great way to accidentally pair completely unrelated classes. I was not saying that two opposing classes should be antithetical. How can they be, when they share a verb? However, I do think that to some degree each member of the pair should cover the bases the other can't. So, what is your response to amiableTemplar's alternate suggestion? I agree with AT's pairing, even if I am somewhat ambiguous on the active passive alignment of it, so I'm curious.
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Post by obsidalicious on May 4, 2016 21:11:54 GMT
Plus, the stuff that Mages know, I wouldn't even call it minutia. Take for instance Sollux's encounter with Lord English's summoning program. He knew the general gist of what the program did, and he had a feeling that it was nothing good. But what he didn't know was specific details like who put it there, and what the "mysterious subroutine" did. Same for Meulin; Knowing that telling Horuss to supress his anger and pretend to be happy is a bad idea seems like it would fall under minutia as it's just one action, that really only applies to one person.
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Post by heirloomairloom on May 4, 2016 23:59:12 GMT
*nods* This was one of the reasons I liked Mages as the counterpart to Seers, because Rose describes her function as 'knowing shit about the big picture.... But the insides of [her] shoes stay free from the grit of the minutia.' Mages seem to be the type to miss the forest for the trees. So between a Seer and a Mage, they'd be able to see both the forest and its trees. I look at it and see the opposite: just as both a Prince and a Bard destroy, in themselves or in others, and it's just the nature of the destruction that changes, whatever a Mage pairs with should also be involved in seemingly-impossible, miraculous effects. That is, people seem to think that the active/passive split should be "antithetical" in as many ways as possible, for lack of a better term, and I think that's a really wrong-headed way of looking at it. What's "active" about knowing minutiae? What's "passive" about having access to more, and better, information? That seems like a great way to accidentally pair completely unrelated classes. So, instead, we should look for a distinctly passive-seeming class that also seems to participate in the miracle-work thing--but as an enabler, assister, facilitator, etc. rather than a direct, personal agent. Ideally, it should also be a class whose members struggle with really understanding their aspect, despite being capable of incredible things with it, and having all the information they need presented up front. Fortunately, we have just such a class: Page. Pages are shown to have incredible power; as much as the word "awesome" is abused, their power truly can inspire awe, and yet it also primarily works in or with other people rather than themselves. Even post-clock-breaking Caliborn wasn't able to resist Jake's Hopesphere. Tavros, as Page of Breath, was able to do the impossible: befriend seemingly infinite ghosts, and actually be FRIENDS with them, and through that friendship, get them to be willing to risk their afterlives for his cause. A feat Vriska legitimately believed impossible, before she just sort of rode with it (in a certain sense, literally). Yet at the same time, Pages fundamentally struggle with understanding their aspects, having major issues with even the simplest tasks because their boneheaded perceptions are so off-kilter that they just make no sense whatsoever. There is, though, one really interesting way that the two do form a different--and in my opinion much "stronger"--antithetical pair than just "sees details SUPER WELL" vs. "sees general stuff, which can include details." This was originally posted as part of the "Legendary ZeroTemplar" theory, but basically, Mages and Pages seem to "develop" oppositely. Mages begin as wunderkinds, and then have to learn how to work around and without their powers in the situations and times where they're inappropriate, in order to have any ongoing potential. Pages begin with almost no tools and having to fend for themselves without special aid, but in so doing, eventually grow into (apparently) one of the most powerful classes in Sburb. I'd also like to say that simply knowing details really well doesn't really explain being a "miracle worker." That's pretty clearly a power of actually DOING something to or with your aspect. Hence why I am rather enamored with the idea that the Seer's verb, instead of 'see' or even 'understand,' is perhaps watch. For the passive Seer, "watching" takes the form of observing the external world. And who better to be a literal " watchman" than the Knight of Time? (Okay it's a wordplay-based argument and I *hate* those, I just think that's a funny coincidence.) But seriously, if Knights are protectors and guardians, it makes sense that they would be "watching" their aspect, guarding it and preserving it, as well as "watching" others via their Aspect, protecting their allies from dangerous threats. Where the Seer "watches" the world through the lens of their aspect, and "watches" their aspect and its effect on the world, the Knight acts as policeman and soldier, defending and protecting. It's a nice, simple word, has room for broad interpretation without being so open that you could interpret it as almost anything, and allows us to have Seers that are not fighters paired with Knights who can be (but, as with Karkat, may not ALWAYS be!) "Miracle working" is only barely less universal than "exploit." Doing literally anything with your Aspect, as long as someone was incredulous that it could be done, isn't a very specific criteria. For that matter, it hardly correlates with either the Mage or Page classes. Sure, Meulin was the origin of the phrase in Homestuck, and I'll grant Jake pulls out some surprising stuff. But what "miracles" was Sollux responsible for? Translating some symbols into a computer program? Is that really more impressive than Equius being able to create and install functional prosthetics at age 13? Flying the meteor to the Green Sun? Remember that faster than light travel is a common power for yellow bloods and that the trolls' entire escape plan took for granted that Sollux would be able to get them there. And while Vriska didn't think Tavros was capable of gathering the ghost army, it was because she thought that Tavros wasn't capable of anything, not that talking a bunch of people into following you into battle is impossible, as it clearly isn't. Compare that to people like Jade or Roxy, who were told to do something, considered it impossible, then went on to actually do it. Gamzee's attack in the final battle was so unbelievable that even the Black King was shocked. Karkat getting the trolls the work together while Equius says that he'll never listen to him, Dave being impressed that John can defy the alpha timeline's per-destination, I can hardly list all the times that someone was shocked that someone else was able to accomplish something in Homestuck, and there's no real pattern for the classes of the people doing it.
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Post by ashercrane on May 5, 2016 0:22:53 GMT
I look at it and see the opposite: just as both a Prince and a Bard destroy, in themselves or in others, and it's just the nature of the destruction that changes, whatever a Mage pairs with should also be involved in seemingly-impossible, miraculous effects. That is, people seem to think that the active/passive split should be "antithetical" in as many ways as possible, for lack of a better term, and I think that's a really wrong-headed way of looking at it. What's "active" about knowing minutiae? What's "passive" about having access to more, and better, information? That seems like a great way to accidentally pair completely unrelated classes. So, instead, we should look for a distinctly passive-seeming class that also seems to participate in the miracle-work thing--but as an enabler, assister, facilitator, etc. rather than a direct, personal agent. Ideally, it should also be a class whose members struggle with really understanding their aspect, despite being capable of incredible things with it, and having all the information they need presented up front. Fortunately, we have just such a class: Page. Pages are shown to have incredible power; as much as the word "awesome" is abused, their power truly can inspire awe, and yet it also primarily works in or with other people rather than themselves. Even post-clock-breaking Caliborn wasn't able to resist Jake's Hopesphere. Tavros, as Page of Breath, was able to do the impossible: befriend seemingly infinite ghosts, and actually be FRIENDS with them, and through that friendship, get them to be willing to risk their afterlives for his cause. A feat Vriska legitimately believed impossible, before she just sort of rode with it (in a certain sense, literally). Yet at the same time, Pages fundamentally struggle with understanding their aspects, having major issues with even the simplest tasks because their boneheaded perceptions are so off-kilter that they just make no sense whatsoever. There is, though, one really interesting way that the two do form a different--and in my opinion much "stronger"--antithetical pair than just "sees details SUPER WELL" vs. "sees general stuff, which can include details." This was originally posted as part of the "Legendary ZeroTemplar" theory, but basically, Mages and Pages seem to "develop" oppositely. Mages begin as wunderkinds, and then have to learn how to work around and without their powers in the situations and times where they're inappropriate, in order to have any ongoing potential. Pages begin with almost no tools and having to fend for themselves without special aid, but in so doing, eventually grow into (apparently) one of the most powerful classes in Sburb. I'd also like to say that simply knowing details really well doesn't really explain being a "miracle worker." That's pretty clearly a power of actually DOING something to or with your aspect. Hence why I am rather enamored with the idea that the Seer's verb, instead of 'see' or even 'understand,' is perhaps watch. For the passive Seer, "watching" takes the form of observing the external world. And who better to be a literal " watchman" than the Knight of Time? (Okay it's a wordplay-based argument and I *hate* those, I just think that's a funny coincidence.) But seriously, if Knights are protectors and guardians, it makes sense that they would be "watching" their aspect, guarding it and preserving it, as well as "watching" others via their Aspect, protecting their allies from dangerous threats. Where the Seer "watches" the world through the lens of their aspect, and "watches" their aspect and its effect on the world, the Knight acts as policeman and soldier, defending and protecting. It's a nice, simple word, has room for broad interpretation without being so open that you could interpret it as almost anything, and allows us to have Seers that are not fighters paired with Knights who can be (but, as with Karkat, may not ALWAYS be!) "Miracle working" is only barely less universal than "exploit." Doing literally anything with your Aspect, as long as someone was incredulous that it could be done, isn't a very specific criteria. For that matter, it hardly correlates with either the Mage or Page classes. Sure, Meulin was the origin of the phrase in Homestuck, and I'll grant Jake pulls out some surprising stuff. But what "miracles" was Sollux responsible for? Translating some symbols into a computer program? Is that really more impressive than Equius being able to create and install functional prosthetics at age 13? Flying the meteor to the Green Sun? Remember that faster than light travel is a common power for yellow bloods and that the trolls' entire escape plan took for granted that Sollux would be able to get them there. And while Vriska didn't think Tavros was capable of gathering the ghost army, it was because she thought that Tavros wasn't capable of anything, not that talking a bunch of people into following you into battle is impossible, as it clearly isn't. Compare that to people like Jade or Roxy, who were told to do something, considered it impossible, then went on to actually do it. Gamzee's attack in the final battle was so unbelievable that even the Black King was shocked. Karkat getting the trolls the work together while Equius says that he'll never listen to him, Dave being impressed that John can defy the alpha timeline's per-destination, I can hardly list all the times that someone was shocked that someone else was able to accomplish something in Homestuck, and there's no real pattern for the classes of the people doing it. Well, Sollux did straight up start off with two dreamselves, without even doing it whatsoever himself, and no one else has shown any capability to do so. Plus... I mean, Tavros made friends with and was a helping portion in leading the likes of Eridan and Cronus to fight against Lord English. I mean... you could say that Meenah did it, sure, but Tavros is about the only thing that changed between that speech and literally all her sessionmates shooting her down.
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Post by Neptz on May 5, 2016 0:35:04 GMT
I'm sorry to be a pain in the ass but a english grammar tip: the word black hole, the word mastery, the word allowing, the word high level, the world role, the word behaviour, the word one, the word git and gud are not to be capitalized unless under very specific circumstances. No, they don't feel any more special if you capitalize them. HumbleElitist already covered most of my points (and you already know about how German naturally expects ALL nouns to be capitalized), so the only thing I'll add is this. Don't apologize for it. Doing so just sounds like you know it's a rude thing to do but plan on doing it anyway, and that doesn't excuse the rudeness. If you actually want to avoid giving offense, ask a question instead of listing corrections. E.g. "Why are you capitalizing words like black hole, mastery, etc.?" Instead of coming across with condemnation and displeasure, you'll come across as open to new ideas and willing to learn. And neither of those things is an offense! In my case, when I capitalize words without a normal precedent for doing so, it's because I'm trying to "highlight" those words. I'm trying to give them a subtle emphasis that doesn't require italicized text (which, like dashes and parentheses, I tend to over-use). So, for example, if I were going to argue that...certain topics were intimately related to Breath, I might give them capital letters to show that they are very important for that aspect, e.g. "Breath is all about being Free and Dynamic, about keeping your options open and remaining constantly Adaptive." Doing that makes the words Free, Dynamic, and Adaptive stick out from the rest of the sentence--clearly indicating that those concepts are keywords. Just like any grammatical tool, capitalization can be over-used, which dilutes its effectiveness. (Edit: Just so it's clear, I accidentally hit post before adding my response to AsherCrane. I promise I'm not just derailing the thread!  ) And now here's that reply. I guess I'll accept that. However, I'm open to new ideas, but I'm not gonna start capitalizing words I feel are "important". It's like a miniature OCD. I MUST refrain from capitalizing any words in a sentence that are not capitalized normally or else my body will degrade inside-out. It also irks me endlessly, so do it if you want to annoy me. I will no longer be a bitch about it, though, since it's a okay thing to do.
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Post by heirloomairloom on May 5, 2016 0:42:08 GMT
Well, Sollux did straight up start off with two dreamselves, without even doing it whatsoever himself, and no one else has shown any capability to do so. Plus... I mean, Tavros made friends with and was a helping portion in leading the likes of Eridan and Cronus to fight against Lord English. I mean... you could say that Meenah did it, sure, but Tavros is about the only thing that changed between that speech and literally all her sessionmates shooting her down. Mituna also had two dream selves, while Meulin did not, so that's a Doom thing, not a Mage thing. And sure, Tavros did A Thing in gathering the army, but what does it have in common with things Mages have done? That people didn't think it could happen? Because that describes tons of events in the comic, so there's no real reason to single out the times a Page did it instead of the times a Rogue did. Put another way, if you've decided that the important thing about Pages is that they do impressive things so they need to be paired with a Class that also does impressive things, why would you choose the Mage who was a really good matchmaker over the Witches who keep throwing planets around?
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Post by ashercrane on May 5, 2016 0:48:39 GMT
Well, Sollux did straight up start off with two dreamselves, without even doing it whatsoever himself, and no one else has shown any capability to do so. Plus... I mean, Tavros made friends with and was a helping portion in leading the likes of Eridan and Cronus to fight against Lord English. I mean... you could say that Meenah did it, sure, but Tavros is about the only thing that changed between that speech and literally all her sessionmates shooting her down. Mituna also had two dream selves, while Meulin did not, so that's a Doom thing, not a Mage thing. And sure, Tavros did A Thing in gathering the army, but what does it have in common with things Mages have done? That people didn't think it could happen? Because that describes tons of events in the comic, so there's no real reason to single out the times a Page did it instead of the times a Rogue did. Put another way, if you've decided that the important thing about Pages is that they do impressive things so they need to be paired with a Class that also does impressive things, why would you choose the Mage who was a really good matchmaker over the Witches who keep throwing planets around? Well, I was saying it could potentially be a Mage of Doom thing, not a Mage thing. It's not like we have any real proof Mituna had 2 apart from him also being a gemini and him skating between the two sections in a flash, but that's beside the point. Things that I really see as being classpect related for Sollux are his essentially giving his life to get (was it KK or Feferi in? Not sure, think it was Fef) into the game, and giving his life in order to propel the meteor. Regardless of your views on whether or not doom refers to order, or systems or whatever, those both seem to be doom related things that relate directly to Sollux, and neither of them, as far as I could tell, had that much forethought put into them. It was more like Sollux did something, and Doom came about as a result, or something like that.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 5, 2016 1:43:39 GMT
I was not saying that two opposing classes should be antithetical. How can they be, when they share a verb? However, I do think that to some degree each member of the pair should cover the bases the other can't. So, what is your response to amiableTemplar's alternate suggestion? I agree with AT's pairing, even if I am somewhat ambiguous on the active passive alignment of it, so I'm curious. I don't want to get into Mage talk again and I just wanted to make it clear what I thought about pairs in general, but personally I don't agree Mage/Page is a pair, for reasons other posters have already pointed out. It's not like we have any real proof Mituna had 2 apart from him also being a gemini and him skating between the two sections in a flash, but that's beside the point. Actually we saw Mituna in Derse and Prospit pajamas in Ministrife.
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 5, 2016 11:53:23 GMT
All we have are thin threads and tiny sample sizes, so of course it's going to be hard to find good fits. I just think that it's weird logic, to assert that Seers not only can but do miss significant fine-detail information, and therefore that's *all* Mages can see. We have, in fact, had little reason to conclude Seers specifically do or don't see anything, other than Rose's purple prose, and may even have reason to conclude exactly the opposite. Doc Scratch had to "speculate" about what would happen if Terezi chose not to kill Vriska on the meteor, but explicitly said that a Seer of Mind would not need to speculate, that it would be perfectly clear to her what this "ever narrowing dark pocket" would contain because it would be " fully within [the Seer of Mind's] domain." That doesn't sound like solely high-level stuff--Terezi could clearly see the specific consequences, including whether or not Vriska would ultimately defeat Jack. Rose can't just look wherever she wants into the future, but when she does see something, we have no reason to believe it is vague and hazy; she knew, for example, the precise trajectory needed to reach the B2 Incipisphere through her Sight alone, and also knew that they needed to linger for a little while, but not too long, because another passenger (WV) was coming. Rose describes her own abilities as " illumination of the road to victory for all." In the same discussion, she describes Terezi's abilities as "command over the outcomes of decisions made by individuals." The former is one of the only places where we see a suggestion that Seers look only at the big picture, though even that is ambiguous ("illuminating...victory for all" could be big-picture or small-picture). Terezi's powers, on the other hand, appear to be far more fine-grained. She can " sift through dross of her comrades' poor tactical inclinations," and "behold the fortunes of friends and foes in totality, and appraise the contrivance of luck itself." Rather than big-picture stuff, that sounds pretty detailed. If anything, Rose's own words about her powers make them sound more like random or uncontrolled details, rather than neat and accurate bigger pictures. "I can treat my finite glimpses as an additional source of information. If you combine that with the knowledge we've gathered from these texts, and things we've learned from our various encounters with the deceased, with a bit of inference and deduction, a more detailed picture is coming into focus." So, beyond simply disputing the Mage association with fine details (which I still do), I dispute the Seer association with the big picture--Seers are perfectly capable of considering the big and the small, simultaneously even. It's just what they do with that knowledge that's a problem. They do suffer from blindness, but I don't think that's a matter of being blind to details. It's a matter of failing to "ask better questions," a matter of letting their awareness become a belief in their own omniscience (or close to it). They say knowledge is power. If absolute power corrupts absolutely, what does that say of absolute knowledge? Still more, what does it say about believing you have absolute knowledge, when in truth you really, really don't? As for the vagueness of "miracle working," it's only vague if you're looking at it as a source for the verb that the class has. And on that front, I absolutely agree--it's worthless. But by that same token, Bards being "wildcards" is also useless for determining their verb--being a wildcard is largely, though not entirely, unrelated to destruction in general--while still useful for comparing to other classes. All three of our Princes have engaged in unexpected, situation-redefining behavior, or broken patterns established by other characters. Eridan spent his session useless and alone, only to become a terrifying threat right before the end of Act 5. Dirk killed himself to save everyone, and maybe even started a (short-lived) revolution on Derse. Kurloz followed his dancestor's pattern of being the one everyone thinks is a harmless clown (or mime), but who was actually a terrifically dangerous and controlling menace. By comparison to the other classes, it's hard to argue that Princes aren't the ones most apt to be called "wildcards" as well--responsible for huge victories and huge defeats in equal measure. TL;DR: Evidence seems to favor Seers having variable sight, not big-picture-only. "Miracle worker" is vague as heck for verb stuff, but perfectly cromulent for pairing stuff.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 5, 2016 13:28:29 GMT
Doc Scratch had to "speculate" about what would happen if Terezi chose not to kill Vriska on the meteor, but explicitly said that a Seer of Mind would not need to speculate, that it would be perfectly clear to her what this "ever narrowing dark pocket" would contain because it would be "fully within [the Seer of Mind's] domain." But Terezi was unable to see the long term, specific effect on her that this action would have. Great, you've saved everyone...now what? She was also unable to pick up on what Gamzee was doing. Those seem like little details that she missed. As for the vagueness of "miracle working," it's only vague if you're looking at it as a source for the verb that the class has. And on that front, I absolutely agree--it's worthless. As has been pointed out, miracle working isn't something that can be ascribed just to Mages and Pages, which is why it doesn't work, even if you disregard it as a verb. In fact Calliope specifically states that what Roxy can do as a God Tier Rogue of Void are things which even other god tiers woUld view as miracUloUs.
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