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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 12:20:02 GMT
alleywaycreeper : Well, we can probably say that Sollux did have something that controlled him once with Vriska, but that was a one-time thing that was simply what sets off his story. Other than that, from what Aranea said concerning Meulin and Kurloz's relationship was that they split from being matesprites back to just being friends. She never held the incident between them as a dealbreaker to their friendship, but from how Aranea said it, it was a slow conversion to Kurloz's beliefs rather than a sudden switch, which more or less could have meant that Meulin wasn't influenced by Kurloz's chucklevoodoos at first, but rather, that she stayed with him for some time before her decision. Even then, Kurloz might "control" someone with his chucklevoodoos, but I doubt he brainwashed anyone using the force of his chucklevoodoos alone. When Kurloz had control over Meulin, Meulin more or less doesn't know what she did while she was controlled. It was a gap in her memory. If anything, it was more likely that she was slowly indoctrinated into his beliefs because of her desire to reconnect with him, making her more susceptible to having her own identity stolen away from her by Kurloz because of it. So if anything, she lost her identity in an attempt to try and reclaim her relationship with Kurloz, when the ideal situation might have been for her to give up her relationship with Kurloz in order to retain her identity. Compared to Sollux who experienced a lot of bad things happening to him, but he simply just shrugged and got back up instead of turning back and trying to look back to reclaim what he lost. That's conjecture. I mean, just about everything in these threads tends to be (including just about everything I say too) because we have so little hard information, but still. We have no way of knowing how long Kurloz has been using his powers on Meulin, what the extent of their effects are on her, or if Aranea had a clear picture of what was going on. After all, she was the busy body who had all this information on everybody, yet she had no clue what Kurloz was doing to his former matesprit. What I'm saying is, the mind control keeps us from getting a clear view of Meulin's actions as a Mage because we have no idea how strongly she was effected and how much influence Kurloz truly has over her. We can't no how much to attribute to him or to her class. If you want to try to figure out the Mages in general and Meulin in particular, you have to take that into account. |
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Post by Wessolf27 on Apr 13, 2016 13:24:08 GMT
Well, that's true, no sense denying that. But generally, the point still stands on Mages not being "knowers" that's always been the central argument I've been talking about. Sollux never boasted about his own knowledge being key to whatever problem the SGRUB session faced, especially as the prophecy concerning his group ceased to mean anything the moment the group left their session, and though Meulin's knowledge might be touted around, her own knowledge had proven to be detrimental to those around her and herself.
But in general, there's a theme of "losing things" with Mages. When we boil down what it is that Meulin and Sollux do share, it's that they seem to have something that they cared for at the beginning, only to lose it by the start of the session, and it affects their decisions and choices. For Sollux, Aradia's death was an important moment for him. For Meulin, it was that moment when she lost her sense of hearing when Kurloz had unintentionally(?) hurt her.
Still, "losing things" is a pretty general thing to happen to everyone who plays the game, after all, they've lost their whole planet including everyone and everything they had cared for with it, so maybe we should focus on this even further.
When I say "losing things" is a theme for Mages, it's that when Mages are constantly searching for that one important thing they've lost. They try to reclaim it by looking for someone or something that they can do in order to revive or replace whatever it is they've lost, only to have what they've almost gained wrenched away in trying to regain it, either through failure, or forces outside of their control. Whether or not Meulin was controlled, the main fact was that she had problems with her romantic pursuits whether it might have been rekindling her romance with Kurloz or some other reason, the same way Sollux seemed to have a problem of losing girlfriends to forces beyond his control.
You know those stories of people who tried to bring back a loved one from the dead, only to realize that the revived is only a shadow of themselves and losing them just as quickly? The Mage's story is something similar to that.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 13, 2016 21:33:41 GMT
So it looks like we aren't going to get any more Classpect answers from the Comic, not for a while anyway.
But one of the few things that I thinks needs to be pointed out: When Dave finally started to Time Travel again in Collide, it was not to fight with, but rather to help and save allies. And as a result he and his friends did just fine while it was fighting with Time Travel that got him killed back in Act 5.
Evidence that the Knight isn't a Fighter/Warrior perhaps?
There's probably also something to be said about Time's link to mortality and how Dave exploited mortality by killing Dirk to kill their foes, knowing that said Death would be fixable. But it really doesn't tell us much other than that Dave exhibited Active Exploitation, which is hardly a new or controversial fact.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 15, 2016 2:55:05 GMT
Reposted from Comdisc: I just realized that out of all the S***b players that made it out, two aspects are not represented among them: Rage and Doom. I think it's an interesting point, because those two aspects seem to have pretty negative associations. Do the classpectologists have any thoughts?
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 15, 2016 3:10:00 GMT
I mean, Rage and Doom do serve positive purposes. Rage is more than just anger, it's conviction, it's being grounded in reality, so to speak. Doom is rules and constraints. And while these things sound like bad things, they can also be god things. Anger can motivate people to take action against something they don't like. Death is how life begins.
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loading
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Post by loading on Apr 15, 2016 4:02:58 GMT
Yes, Rage and Doom do serve positive purposes to reality as a whole. But do you know why they weren't covered here: Rage was excluded because Rage is being grounded in reality. The cast of Homestuck is no longer grounded in reality. They have ultimate power over theirselves in this respect. Doom represens rules. The cast of Homestuck just broke pretty much every rule, both of their reality and, on a meta level, in the storytelling. So no, it's not because they are NEGATIVE, but they ARE strongly opposed to the likely theme of the endgame.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 6:10:01 GMT
So it looks like we aren't going to get any more Classpect answers from the Comic, not for a while anyway. But one of the few things that I thinks needs to be pointed out: When Dave finally started to Time Travel again in Collide, it was not to fight with, but rather to help and save allies. And as a result he and his friends did just fine while it was fighting with Time Travel that got him killed back in Act 5. Evidence that the Knight isn't a Fighter/Warrior perhaps? There's probably also something to be said about Time's link to mortality and how Dave exploited mortality by killing Dirk to kill their foes, knowing that said Death would be fixable. But it really doesn't tell us much other than that Dave exhibited Active Exploitation, which is hardly a new or controversial fact. I've never thought 'exploit' was the Knight's verb, but I've thought for a while now that their deal is something in that neighborhood. Dave's always used Time to give him and his allies more of a chance than they would have had. Their session would've been over in a day, but he was able to complete weeks worth of work fucking around with Terezi and breeding frogs with Jade. And thinking back, Karkat exploited troll society's romance structure (their system of bonds) by acting as a sort of love guru for his other players and initiating a moirallegiance with Gamzee. |
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 15, 2016 7:15:28 GMT
Gamzee and Sollux save us from this ending that breaks all the rules of storytelling, confirmed.
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Post by Wessolf27 on Apr 15, 2016 8:06:09 GMT
From our previous discussions on Rage and Doom here, there hasn't been much proof on "rules and laws" being a meaning of Doom within the comic as of yet, but it's likely if we consider how Life players tend to have a somewhat rebellious streak (or at least, big plans involving the total and radical reformation of an old system.) Where Life is about breaking out and doing what you want through sheer force and vitality, Doom is constrained and looks to subvert the system from the inside.
Another way of thinking about Doom is that it's similar to Blood and Rage in the way that rather than power through everything and try to distance oneself from hardships, Doom embraces hardships and sacrifices that need to be done, it's about survival and coming out of situations alive and capable even if that meant costing a limb or your sight. It's about looking at things and saying that the dangerous elephant in the room needs to be addressed, or else it's going to stomp us out flat.
Personal interpretations though, at best, Doom players are the canaries in the coal mine being able to alert, subvert, or even avert the oncoming danger at the expense of their own and cushioning the aftershocks that might affect those around them. At worst, Doom players are pessimists who refuse to find another way out, are paranoid players who cry wolf at the onset of danger, or reckless martyrs without a cause.
Sollux's has a tendency to want to save people from an oncoming threat, but more often than not ends up being put out of commission and forced to sit by the sidelines and let the threat happen. He made SBRUB with the intention that it could save Alternia, he fought against Eridan in an attempt to stop the start of his murder spree. Both times, he was knocked out. But both times led him to something where he actually has to start acting and saving someone in danger. After waking from Aradia's nap, he was able to save Feferi at the cost of his own life, and later on him being knocked out was important for the survival of the meteor crew to make it out of the session, also at the cost of his own life.
Also, he has a surprising tendency to be at the proximity of where his girlfriends die. Actually, now that I think about it, he seems pretty much like Spiderman and Cyclops in one tragic superhero pacakage. So yeah.
-----
Rage on the other hand is a bit harder. But I'm gonna just throw some ideas and see if anything might lead to a better idea about the aspect.
I mean, personally, I'd also ascribe fears and nightmares as being a "Rage" thing, but considering they're chucklevoodoos unique to Gamzee's caste, it's hard to say. Both aspects tend to have something to do with "belief" but where Hope strives to make imagination into reality, Rage might be the sort to make reality into a sort of farce, making it not as real as it should be. I also ascribed "Fears" being part of this because they're the sort of thing one wishes could be fake. Considering that Rage seems to be symbolized as a sort of face-paint whether it's war-paint or clown-paint, it might just be that it's main idea is of intimidation, or making things look fiercer or bigger than it actually is. Scare tactics, and things that serve to confound, and mislead others.
There might be a point to BYB's explanation that Rage could lead to narrow-mindedness, considering that both Gamzee and Kurloz were meant to look ineffectual and harmless, when that ineffectual nature hides something much more terrible underneath. Basically, Rage players are surprisingly good at putting up facades that hide their true nature and/or intentions.
If anything, the more sensible sort of Rage players might be those who know just when to fool others in order to hide something they're not yet meant to know or discover, or are the sort of people who are great at provoking or misleading their enemies in order to cause their downfall, equally as likely is that they might not just hide things, but strip away the paint and expose the lies and delusions that people are using to hide things, or to ensure that what they thought was big and intimidating is nothing more than huge bluff.
At worst, well... you get Gamzee.
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Post by amiabletemplar on Apr 15, 2016 13:34:44 GMT
Reposted from Comdisc: I just realized that out of all the S***b players that made it out, two aspects are not represented among them: Rage and Doom. I think it's an interesting point, because those two aspects seem to have pretty negative associations. Do the classpectologists have any thoughts? I have no special conclusions to draw from it--and I caution against overthinking it. (The irony of *me* saying this is not lost on me.) Rage and Doom are also two of the four aspects that only appeared in the troll session (Mind, Blood, Rage, Doom), and we never actually saw what happened to Sollux--so it could easily be just fine, or he could get recovered from the Furthest Ring, or a number of possible results. I will, however, say that I agree that both Rage and Doom are not inherently negative things. They can be associated to negative things, but you can say that of several other aspects. Void: Ignorance, Forgetfulness. Time: Death, Entropy. Light: Risk, Overconfidence. Breath: Apathy, Dissociation. Etc. The only special thing about Doom and Rage is that it's harder to see what good they can do, purely from thinking about their names and symbols--but we already know that names and symbols are unreliable guides to the system of classes and aspects, so that's unsurprising. |
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Post by plainWonder on Apr 28, 2016 20:41:16 GMT
On MSPA Forums, I had started on an overview of all canon combinations of classes and aspects. This was at a time where we wear still learning about the roles of the A1 trolls and cherubs. I decided to extend the grid with the B2 sprites and Lord English. Since due to them being the combination of different souls, there have been theories they can combine the class of one component with the aspect of another. This brings the total to 53/144 roles going by the canon classes and aspects.  I modified Lord English' symbol from the Undertale sprite in [S] Collide, so that I didn't have to pick a pool ball image or make this into a rotating gif. I think it works well. I decided to put the combining self's symbol on the location of class/aspect combination based on the soul mix - unless the box was already filled. E.g. Kurloz fills the role of Prince of Rage, so even though Lord English' soul contains a Prince and a Rage player, he's not put into that box. I'd been pondering of putting in fedoraFreak in the "  ? of What Pumpkin" box (because Gent of Piss) but decided it against it. Likewise for Jasprosesprite^2 and GCATavrosprite, who you could say are Seer of Cat/Cat of Light and Page of Cat/Cat of Breath, respectively.  Also, I decided against putting in the corrupted characters. I know you could argue at least Rose temporarily served as a different class/aspect. Grimdark Rose had some Voidy things going on, with the darkened out viewport, the black rain, the black magic, the unintelligible language. But when Jade/Jane were being mindcontrolled, they didn't really become Time and Doom players. The Batterwitch did turn them into Thieves, of sorts: pre-retcon Grimbark Jade stole Earth, and Crockertier Jane stole Karkat's life. And okay yeah, Jane stole his death moments later, but all of that's too flimsy for me to check of Seer of Void, Thief of Space, or Thief of Life/Doom, let alone Maid of Doom... Besides, Jade surely didn't become Thief or Witch of Time! I would have liked it if it had been more clearer in-comic whether the human ancestors had any link with their descendant's aspect. We know B1 Mom, B2 Mom and Grandma had some links with their cross-scratch' actual role, though. But it would have been nice to check off Maid of Breath, Rogue of Light, Prince of Time, Page of Space, Heir of Life, Seer of Void, Knight of Heart and Witch of Hope, hahah. |
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 28, 2016 20:58:38 GMT
I would have liked it if it had been more clearer in-comic whether the human ancestors had any link with their descendant's aspect. We know B1 Mom, B2 Mom and Grandma had some links with their cross-scratch' actual role, though. But it would have been nice to check off Maid of Breath, Rogue of Light, Prince of Time, Page of Space, Heir of Life, Seer of Void, Knight of Heart and Witch of Hope, hahah. Calliope does say something like that, but yeah it's not very clear: Also, you made a small mistake. Fefeta is a Rogue of Life, not a Mage of Life. You probably got confused because Meulin's symbol is the same as Nepeta's and it's in the Mage row. But otherwise, this is really great! |
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Post by Neptz on Apr 28, 2016 21:06:55 GMT
Also, I decided against putting in the corrupted characters. I know you could argue at least Rose temporarily served as a different class/aspect. Grimdark Rose had some Voidy things going on, with the darkened out viewport, the black rain, the black magic, the unintelligible language. should I say... inversion?
Heee heee I didn't think ARquiusprite counted as a Heir of Heart, though, that's interesting. And LE a Lord of all of his components' aspects. |
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Post by plainWonder on Apr 30, 2016 17:35:50 GMT
I would have liked it if it had been more clearer in-comic whether the human ancestors had any link with their descendant's aspect. We know B1 Mom, B2 Mom and Grandma had some links with their cross-scratch' actual role, though. But it would have been nice to check off Maid of Breath, Rogue of Light, Prince of Time, Page of Space, Heir of Life, Seer of Void, Knight of Heart and Witch of Hope, hahah. Calliope does say something like that, but yeah it's not very clear: ~snop~ Also, you made a small mistake. Fefeta is a Rogue of Life, not a Mage of Life. You probably got confused because Meulin's symbol is the same as Nepeta's and it's in the Mage row. But otherwise, this is really great! Ah, good input on both accounts! I might make a version of the grid with unofficial roles for the human ancestors just yet! Meanwhile, Fefeta's been moved to the right row already. |
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 1, 2016 4:06:48 GMT
I've never been super keen on the "souls merge = all classes cross with all aspects" thing. It comes across as cheesy. Hell, up until we saw Davepeta do both Heart things and Time things, we didn't even know for sure what sort of stuff applied to amalgams of people. I caution against over-committing to this sort of thing.
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Post by tastySalamanders on May 1, 2016 13:09:37 GMT
I wish Rachel was still active in the community, she sort of disappeared? But ages ago didn't she sort of imply that she might reveal claspect info that wasn't covered in-comic after the end? I guess that isn't going to happen now.
Though based on the fact that Hussie apparently had a whole document about it and there is a bunch of stuff still unrevealed, like a bunch of denizens, I am guessing that we may be possibly getting in the future some sort of Sburb guide that reveals this. Probably in book form.
I guess there is also the possibility of more author commentary revealing more if a new book is ever released. Or if the author commentary is included in the personal copy of Homestuck that is supposed to accompany Hiveswap.
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Post by AsherCrane on May 1, 2016 19:25:43 GMT
Well, this is a quick reply till I actually make an account here... Thought on Davepeta saying Heart is the distribution of Soul, and Time is confronting it?
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Post by plainWonder on May 2, 2016 20:40:00 GMT
Completely non-canon classpect grid, extended with grimdark/bark inversions/corruptions and Human Ancestor roles. Didn't cross off anything as a class inversion of Maid of Life or Witch of Space, come to think of it. Bleh. (I know, it's probably not really clear which symbol belongs to who - just think of their eye colour.)  I wish Rachel was still active in the community, she sort of disappeared? But ages ago didn't she sort of imply that she might reveal claspect info that wasn't covered in-comic after the end? I guess that isn't going to happen now. Though based on the fact that Hussie apparently had a whole document about it and there is a bunch of stuff still unrevealed, like a bunch of denizens, I am guessing that we may be possibly getting in the future some sort of Sburb guide that reveals this. Probably in book form. I guess there is also the possibility of more author commentary revealing more if a new book is ever released. Or if the author commentary is included in the personal copy of Homestuck that is supposed to accompany Hiveswap. Hey, hello and welcome to the forums! Yeah, it remains to be seen what things we'll still get that we were told would be shared after the end.  I wonder what Andrew plans to do with the rest of the SBURB system that he has thought out but not put into canon. Does "draw your own conclusions" apply, or is he intending to reveal more about the aspects, the classes, the names and appearances of the Denizens. Well, this is a quick reply till I actually make an account here... Thought on Davepeta saying Heart is the distribution of Soul, and Time is confronting it? Well, in a literal sense, the trolls all confronted their past selves in Karkat's transtimeline memoes, but I'd say Dirk was pretty confronted by AR and Arquiusprite, though maybe his aspect had to do something about it as well. Speaking of which: Dirk, as the Prince, splintered his Heart/Soul. But it didn't break. What does that mean for Eridan and Kurloz? Did Eridan's Hope/Belief in Magic not break or shatter, just splintered off into his belief in white magic? And Kurloz? Did he splinter his rage off into Meulin? Mituna? Gamzee? What did he do to Cronus? |
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Post by amiabletemplar on May 2, 2016 23:47:25 GMT
I wonder what Andrew plans to do with the rest of the SBURB system that he has thought out but not put into canon. Does "draw your own conclusions" apply, or is he intending to reveal more about the aspects, the classes, the names and appearances of the Denizens. At this point, I strongly suspect he's not going to say anything more about it. Which leaves me extremely disappointed. I assume you meant "class" rather than "aspect" there. As for Time, I don't really see much about it that seems to focus on "confronting" your Self. It does seem to relate to *death* which requires us to think about our own mortality and what will happen to our individual-ness, but that's not really the same thing as "confronting your Self." I imagine any active Heart player would have some amount of conflict with their Self, since active-ness seems to correlate to some extent with needing to wrangle one's aspect. By comparison, I wouldn't think an Heir or Seer of Time would do much "confronting" of their Self, but absolutely would care about information distributed across many different timelines. Particularly the Seer of Time--I imagine seeing into alternate futures and picking up the most pertinent details (or objects!) would be key to their contribution to a Sburb team. This sounds more like trying to over-generalize a specific thing. Prince+Heart can be a path of splintered Self, but that doesn't mean all Princes "splinter" their aspects. |
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Post by ashercrane on May 3, 2016 0:37:05 GMT
Calliope did say that there were classes that splintered as well as the Heart aspect. I agree that Princes and Bards are probably most likely to be the classes that fit this, being the destroy classes, but I don't think the other two Princes we've seen are examples of it. |
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Post by Neptz on May 3, 2016 0:54:44 GMT
With the information we've seen so far, is there at least a idea of what Muses and Lords actually ARE?
Hopefully we'll get an elaboration on them on post-end material (if that even comes to exist)
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Post by ashercrane on May 3, 2016 1:02:10 GMT
As far as Muse... not really to my rough knowledge. As far as lord, I believe Caliborn said something about "bending causality to will" or something like that. I'll go look for it.
EDIT: Direct quote
uu: I THINK PART OF MY PERSONAL QUEST. IS TO BECOME AT EASE WITH THE FORCES OF INEVITABILITY.
uu: INEVITABILITY THAT ALL THINGS SHOULD AND WILL FALL IN MY FAVOR. THAT ALL CAUSALITY ANSWERS TO ME. AND THAT ALL OUTCOMES NOT ONLY SERVE ME. BUT CONSIST OF MY BEING.
uu: SO I FEEL THAT. THE MORE I GROW IN POWER.
uu: THE MORE STUFF IT SHOULD TURN OUT I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR.
uu: UP TO AND INCLUDING. EVERYTHING THAT EVER HAPPENS.
uu: EVEN IF IT HAS TO BE.
uu: RETROACTIVELY.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on May 3, 2016 1:09:10 GMT
With the information we've seen so far, is there at least a idea of what Muses and Lords actually ARE? Hopefully we'll get an elaboration on them on post-end material (if that even comes to exist) The popular theory seems to be that them both being Master classes means their verb might be to master. So a Lord master's his aspect or uses his aspect to master things, while a Muse allows her aspect to be mastered, or things to be mastered through her aspect. I like the idea myself. |
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Post by obsidalicious on May 3, 2016 3:15:31 GMT
While the idea of Mastery sounds good on paper, and it certainly applies to Caliborn in many ways. I don't quite see how we could apply it to Calliope. Pretty much the only Space related things that Calliope(any version) has done is A) Be isolated(shared with her brother, so does that even count?) B) Be somewhat artistically inclined(But said art had no real effect on anything) and C) Make a Blackhole that did ... something.
Clearly the Blackhole is the droid we're looking for here so let's examine that: It is certainly a clear cut case of Allowing the Aspect, as she simply made the Black Hole and just let it do Black Holey things as a Black Hole is wont to do. But is it Mastery over Space? I think that it'd be reasonable to say that this is a "High Level" technique, but I very much doubt that the path of the Muse is simply 'be powerfuller than others'. Classes are specific Roles or Behaviours that are imposed on the Aspect and a 'Role' of 'One who Gits Gud at Aspect' is far to broad and bland in my opinion.
However, since we didn't actually get to really see for sure what the Blackhole did, it's rather difficult to pin down what role Calliope, as the instigator, fulfilled there.
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Post by heirloomairloom on May 3, 2016 3:25:04 GMT
ashercraneYou left out a part of that quote that provides even more clear evidence that Lord's verb is master. uu: AS A LORD OF TIME. I THINK I'M GOING TO MASTER TIME. NOT WITH MY BRAIN. WHICH WOULD BE TOO HARD. BUT WITH MY INSTINCTS. obsidaliciousYou're forgetting that being near Calliope also allowed Roxy to create the matriorb she'd been struggling with making beforehand, a much more clear example of granting someone mastery of their abilities within the domain of Space.
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? of What Pumpkin" box (because Gent of Piss) but decided it against it.
