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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Nov 2, 2016 17:14:37 GMT
IDE: Hussie will continue to butcher the pacing and act structure of the story by having the epilogue be longer than Act 6 and have it depict story-crucial content despite the fact that epilogues aren't supposed to. I want off Hussie's wild ride.
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Post by melonlord on Nov 4, 2016 1:24:02 GMT
You know, it just now occurred to me, but with the revelations in the snapchat updates and the credits, it seems that the "the kids escaped canon" theory is pretty well debunked now.
The story is definitely still going, they're definitely still in it, and they're almost definitely in their universe frog rather than some sort of magic extracanonical space.
I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, actually, people put a hell of a lot of stock in that theory.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 4, 2016 2:10:03 GMT
You know, it just now occurred to me, but with the revelations in the snapchat updates and the credits, it seems that the "the kids escaped canon" theory is pretty well debunked now. The story is definitely still going, they're definitely still in it, and they're almost definitely in their universe frog rather than some sort of magic extracanonical space. I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, actually, people put a hell of a lot of stock in that theory. Did they? I recall one, maybe two people adopt the Sig Flag, and I don't really recall any discussion on it other than a few people putting forward the idea right after Act 7 came out. I'm fairly sure I've heard nary a peep from its supporters ever since the Epilogue was announced which, as you say, more or less debunked the idea for the simple reason of it being more story.
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Georgie
Plucky Tot
Mage of Breath, apparently.
Posts: 27
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by Georgie on Nov 4, 2016 2:21:10 GMT
Did they? I recall one, maybe two people adopt the Sig Flag, and I don't really recall any discussion on it other than a few people putting forward the idea right after Act 7 came out. I'm fairly sure I've heard nary a peep from its supporters ever since the Epilogue was announced which, as you say, more or less debunked the idea for the simple reason of it being more story. I don't know… I do remember quite a few people being in favour of that theory. Not around here, perhaps, but just around the Internet in general. From what I saw, it appeared to primarily be employed as a sort of coping mechanism in response to the initial disappointment with the ending. Maybe it was just so outlandish and meta that it stuck in my head and I noticed it more.
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Post by melonlord on Nov 4, 2016 2:35:46 GMT
You know, it just now occurred to me, but with the revelations in the snapchat updates and the credits, it seems that the "the kids escaped canon" theory is pretty well debunked now. The story is definitely still going, they're definitely still in it, and they're almost definitely in their universe frog rather than some sort of magic extracanonical space. I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, actually, people put a hell of a lot of stock in that theory. Did they? I recall one, maybe two people adopt the Sig Flag, and I don't really recall any discussion on it other than a few people putting forward the idea right after Act 7 came out. I'm fairly sure I've heard nary a peep from its supporters ever since the Epilogue was announced which, as you say, more or less debunked the idea for the simple reason of it being more story. I forget how much traction it had/has here, but it was one of the bigger theories, yeah. Most of the ending theories on Tumblr were some flavor of it or another, and there were quite a few long and involved posts about it, to the point where it almost seemed like the de-facto fandom interpretation. Maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part, though.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 4, 2016 3:19:10 GMT
Did they? I recall one, maybe two people adopt the Sig Flag, and I don't really recall any discussion on it other than a few people putting forward the idea right after Act 7 came out. I'm fairly sure I've heard nary a peep from its supporters ever since the Epilogue was announced which, as you say, more or less debunked the idea for the simple reason of it being more story. I forget how much traction it had/has here, but it was one of the bigger theories, yeah. Most of the ending theories on Tumblr were some flavor of it or another, and there were quite a few long and involved posts about it, to the point where it almost seemed like the de-facto fandom interpretation. Maybe it's just confirmation bias on my part, though. I suppose now that you mention it, I do recall one long Tumblr post that someone linked talking about such a theory, but it had a number of baseless assertions in it, such as declaring that what Calliope did was definitely destroy all of Paradox Space, and several people here called it out on such flaws and it was largely dismissed and forgotten here. So if you're in the mood for elitism, It seems like the Theory is only popular wherever people don't think about things too much, and thus wasn't seen much around here because we're the smart ones.
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Post by Gab on Nov 4, 2016 20:36:44 GMT
I suppose now that you mention it, I do recall one long Tumblr post that someone linked talking about such a theory, but it had a number of baseless assertions in it, such as declaring that what Calliope did was definitely destroy all of Paradox Space, and several people here called it out on such flaws and it was largely dismissed and forgotten here. So if you're in the mood for elitism, It seems like the Theory is only popular wherever people don't think about things too much, and thus wasn't seen much around here because we're the smart ones. I guess that qualifies as a theory of sorts. But it's not surprising that a theory that was originated and discussed elsewhere wouldn't get such a huge standing here. Also, whether that's supposed to be a joke or not, it's still pretty rude. As I recall, back in those dark days, everyone was scrambling to find a theory that explained things satisfactory to their views. For me, no one theory quite did it for me, but I took bits and pieces of people's theories, the ones that made sense to me or that made me think in ways I hadn't before, and forming my own opinion. I know the "escape" theme helped me cope with the rather sudden ending. Not so much the literal escape (and possible destruction) of paradox space, but the metaphorical outpacing of the story for thematic reasons. I'm a lot shakier on that now, but that's okay because the story as I was made to accept it back then has also changed, but I still think there is something to that line of thinking. While we've seen more details about what happened to them than I thought we would, it's still somewhat ambiguous and abridged, skipping ahead four years far faster than the three year "time skip" we got in Act 6. Lately I've also been likening it to ties to maturity and adulthood. Obviously the story is about a bunch of KIDS and their adventure as they all grow up together, so it makes sense for the story to leave them behind as they become adults. There's even a bit of fringe territory as they grow older than 16. Obviously that's not quite adulthood, but it's not quite childhood either.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 6, 2016 5:54:52 GMT
Also, whether that's supposed to be a joke or not, it's still pretty rude. Well, yeah. What's the point of being an Elitist if you're not going to be Rude as well?
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Nov 13, 2016 5:31:57 GMT
You know, it just now occurred to me, but with the revelations in the snapchat updates and the credits, it seems that the "the kids escaped canon" theory is pretty well debunked now. The story is definitely still going, they're definitely still in it, and they're almost definitely in their universe frog rather than some sort of magic extracanonical space. I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, actually, people put a hell of a lot of stock in that theory. Kind of happy about that myself. There was basically nothing that supported it, but I saw a fair amount of people (outside here) latch onto it like a lifeline. It's one thing to believe whole-heartedly in a theory that has some support, but.... In any case, I knew something was going to come to debunk theories like that and the surety that some people seemed to have that Homestuck was all but well and truly over, but it's been annoying waiting for it.
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archiewhite
Juvesquirt
Give Homestuck back to Hussie and banish his current team
Posts: 12
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Post by archiewhite on Nov 14, 2016 15:18:01 GMT
I guess that the train will accelerate.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Nov 16, 2016 19:06:57 GMT
I guess that the train will accelerate. Pardon?
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Post by mementovivere on Nov 17, 2016 17:03:20 GMT
Theory: Meenah (the Thief of Life) is behind the Maid of Life being stolen, partly to avenge herself and partly to use as bait to steal the Ring of Life that Calliope's wearing. Seperate but related theory: After Lord English's defeat, Meenah somehow manages to steal some Life through one means or another, then somehow makes her way back to ancient Alternia, kills her alt-universe self, and takes her place (ie, steals her chance at life) in order to become the literal Condesce we know and loathe. This is possibly foreshadowed here. You know, it just now occurred to me, but with the revelations in the snapchat updates and the credits, it seems that the "the kids escaped canon" theory is pretty well debunked now. The story is definitely still going, they're definitely still in it, and they're almost definitely in their universe frog rather than some sort of magic extracanonical space. I'm kind of surprised I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, actually, people put a hell of a lot of stock in that theory. The fact that this meta-obsessed story is continuing despite having "ended" still seems intentional and significant though. So, I don't really think "the kids escaped canon" is ENTIRELY inaccurate, but it's less "the kids escape paradox space" and more like "the kids escaped the medium through which their story was being told". That's why everything we've seen post-canon is not through regular panels on the website, but through a backdoor peek into their lives via their snapchats to each other. Yes, yes, the story's still technically going since events keep hapening. But it's kind of like if you were to read a book, the book ended, but then you started getting postcards from the characters in the book about what they were doing after the fact. It's sort of a metanarrative way of making the characters seem more "alive" despite the story proper being over.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 17, 2016 20:31:24 GMT
The fact that this meta-obsessed story is continuing despite having "ended" still seems intentional and significant though. So, I don't really think "the kids escaped canon" is ENTIRELY inaccurate, but it's less "the kids escape paradox space" and more like "the kids escaped the medium through which their story was being told". That's why everything we've seen post-canon is not through regular panels on the website, but through a backdoor peek into their lives via their snapchats to each other. Yes, yes, the story's still technically going since events keep hapening. But it's kind of like if you were to read a book, the book ended, but then you started getting postcards from the characters in the book about what they were doing after the fact. It's sort of a metanarrative way of making the characters seem more "alive" despite the story proper being over. If this was the first time Homestuck switched up its format/medium, you'd have a point. But Hussie has already well established a tendency to mess with the format/medium, so doing so again here is really just par for the course and doesn't mean anything to us. Can you recall a single person saying "Wow, I can't believe Hussie would use Snapchat to tell a story"? I can't, because it's practically normal at this point.
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Post by mementovivere on Nov 17, 2016 21:52:14 GMT
I mean, I guess, but that doesn't really address my argument about it being a metanarrative shift. That's just you saying "nothing new could impress me at this point" but I do still think there's meant to be significance behind the change now that the curtains have closed.
If nothing else, it IS the first time we've been required to consume the story somewhere other than the MSPA website. I've seen multiple people complaining about that, at least. I mean, yeah, Vriska has an actual instagram account and Caliborn has an actual deviantart account, but that's more of a fun extra rather than something you HAVE to go to in order to find out what happens.
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Post by melonlord on Nov 18, 2016 15:14:57 GMT
I mean, I guess, but that doesn't really address my argument about it being a metanarrative shift. That's just you saying "nothing new could impress me at this point" but I do still think there's meant to be significance behind the change now that the curtains have closed. If nothing else, it IS the first time we've been required to consume the story somewhere other than the MSPA website. I've seen multiple people complaining about that, at least. I mean, yeah, Vriska has an actual instagram account and Caliborn has an actual deviantart account, but that's more of a fun extra rather than something you HAVE to go to in order to find out what happens. Yeah, there's a bit of significance there. I think it was blaperile (?) who pointed out that it's the kids choosing what parts of the story are being told now, rather than an omniscient, controlling narrator. However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Nov 18, 2016 17:16:12 GMT
I mean, I guess, but that doesn't really address my argument about it being a metanarrative shift. That's just you saying "nothing new could impress me at this point" but I do still think there's meant to be significance behind the change now that the curtains have closed. If nothing else, it IS the first time we've been required to consume the story somewhere other than the MSPA website. I've seen multiple people complaining about that, at least. I mean, yeah, Vriska has an actual instagram account and Caliborn has an actual deviantart account, but that's more of a fun extra rather than something you HAVE to go to in order to find out what happens. Yeah, there's a bit of significance there. I think it was blaperile (?) who pointed out that it's the kids choosing what parts of the story are being told now, rather than an omniscient, controlling narrator. However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story. Wait a minute....oh holy crap, something's happened to Hussie!! Or his ghost. Or whatever.
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Post by Gab on Nov 19, 2016 14:31:33 GMT
However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story. But this makes no sense, because it is extremely unlikely there is anywhere they could go English couldn't find a way to follow if he really wanted. What makes them safe isn't going somewhere he can't follow, but somewhere he won't. Like, I always thought it was weird Condesce's role as his servant was to go to the places "he couldn't reach," since we know there are plenty of ways he could have easily, and presumably lent some of those ways to her. The fact that what we see her doing next is hanging around Earth and interacting with the kids who will create his universe tells me he doesn't want to directly interfere with his creators, for whatever reason, so he manipulates them from afar through his agents. Really, being "safe" from him is the least of their worries. There's probably no one safer in creation thanks to him. He wouldn't risk anything preventing his own birth, not even himself.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Nov 19, 2016 17:27:12 GMT
However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story. But this makes no sense, because it is extremely unlikely there is anywhere they could go English couldn't find a way to follow if he really wanted. Unless you get a God Tier Rogue of Heart to rip all his pieces apart.
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Post by melonlord on Nov 20, 2016 4:26:23 GMT
However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story. But this makes no sense, because it is extremely unlikely there is anywhere they could go English couldn't find a way to follow if he really wanted. What makes them safe isn't going somewhere he can't follow, but somewhere he won't. Like, I always thought it was weird Condesce's role as his servant was to go to the places "he couldn't reach," since we know there are plenty of ways he could have easily, and presumably lent some of those ways to her. The fact that what we see her doing next is hanging around Earth and interacting with the kids who will create his universe tells me he doesn't want to directly interfere with his creators, for whatever reason, so he manipulates them from afar through his agents. Really, being "safe" from him is the least of their worries. There's probably no one safer in creation thanks to him. He wouldn't risk anything preventing his own birth, not even himself. I was marking both Lord English himself and his minions/influence together as one, yeah. I mean, minions and indirect influence are basically the only way he interacts with universes anyway, from what we've seen. Anyway, perhaps "danger" was the wrong word there. But they're still under his influence, and tied to Sburb's cycle. And, technically, all he needs is the earth itself. He could wipe out their entire civilization personally, and it would turn out to have been retroactively necessary to clear the earth for his arrival, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you are the undisputed Lord of Time. That they are alive at all is a product of Lord English's questionable mercy. (I also think it involves John, but that would be kind of a longer tangent) Finally, there is in fact a place Lord English would be unable to follow them: the blankspace. Lord English manifests in universes via Lil Cal, who is entangled in the fabric of the void and thus able to appear in the dreams of a universe's inhabitants. If the kids were to cut themselves off from that fabric entirely, Lord English would be unable to get to them; no Lil Cal, no Doc Scratch, no Lord English.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 20, 2016 5:03:21 GMT
However, what I was getting at is the fact that the kids are still in paradox space, and thus still in danger from lord english. The method of storytelling might have changed, but it's still the same story. But this makes no sense, because it is extremely unlikely there is anywhere they could go English couldn't find a way to follow if he really wanted. But that's exactly the point. A recurring trend in Homestuck is that the characters keep fleeing from problems that they feel they can't handle, only to run into more, bigger problems. The ending is no exception, with the characters running off to Earth C away from everything still going on in the Session, so naturally, the trend suggests that they'll encounter problems, potentially very big ones on Earth C, and that's exactly what we've been shown.
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Post by Gab on Nov 20, 2016 16:49:13 GMT
Unless you get a God Tier Rogue of Heart to rip all his pieces apart. -snort- yeah ok good luck with that Anyway, perhaps "danger" was the wrong word there. But they're still under his influence, and tied to Sburb's cycle. And, technically, all he needs is the earth itself. He could wipe out their entire civilization personally, and it would turn out to have been retroactively necessary to clear the earth for his arrival, because that's the sort of thing that happens when you are the undisputed Lord of Time. That they are alive at all is a product of Lord English's questionable mercy. (I also think it involves John, but that would be kind of a longer tangent) True enough. I guess the difference between you and I then is whether one thinks of that as a necessarily bad thing, or something which can be helped. If you think English couldn't find a way to follow them, you're underestimating him more badly than any character in Homestuck ever has. John once teleported all of Lowas and every living thing on it into blancspace before. Assuming that place behaves with any linearity or continuity, which I admit is kind of a big ask considering how little we truly know, but IF that is the case then all English would have to do is exploit any single connection to and from this realm, such as the one I just described, at which point he would be able to fully explore this realm at all points in time and space, and find anyone who might have thought they could escape him. Whether he'd be able to get to that particular version of Lowas in the pre-retcon timeline I suppose is another question, and I in fact have even argued in the past that he is unable to interact with doomed timelines. But this is just an example. Should the kids try anything like that again in a non-doomed timeline, it would be child's play for him to stow away with them in such a fashion. But that's exactly the point. A recurring trend in Homestuck is that the characters keep fleeing from problems that they feel they can't handle, only to run into more, bigger problems. The ending is no exception, with the characters running off to Earth C away from everything still going on in the Session, so naturally, the trend suggests that they'll encounter problems, potentially very big ones on Earth C, and that's exactly what we've been shown. I don't know about that trend. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but it sounds like you're trying to make a point that they should have faced their problems instead of running, even though I think it's pretty clear doing that would have gotten them killed pointlessly. And it's not like running into bigger problems was actually a consequence of those decisions. So I would say finding "non-climactic" solutions to their problems was generally the right/only thing to do when that is what they did. Which is not always the case. I'd say they cleaned their personal session up pretty nicely, defeating all the baddies there before creating the Genesis Frog, which was the end goal from page 1, one could argue. And we've already seen the kids, or I guess rather the creators I should call them now? Will still go and fight Caliborn some day, whether they know it or not. Even though that is only nominally their fight, being guilted into it more than anything by being "responsible" for him being born, even though you could just as easily claim English has manipulated them into doing so. English has accrued enemies in his own right, and those enemies have taken steps against him. That's what is going on in the furthest ring right now. In fact, I would say that is kind of a trend with villains in Homestuck. When they die, it almost never seems to be at the hands of the actual main characters. The king and queen of the kids session, the would-be final bosses of their game, are killed unceremoniously by Jack, and he is eventually taken down singlehandedly by PM. Doc Scratch died voluntarily by granting LE passage into that universe. Aranea was ultimately opposed and killed by the Condesce. Even B2 Jack was sabotaged by Spades Slick, a character who had little to do with the "main plot", due to his offscreen rivalry with the real LE. Though I admit that's a stretch of an example. The Condesce is the obvious exception to this case, and by all accounts was a better villain than any of the other examples, being a personal and direct enemy to most of the characters who fought her, who antagonized and wronged them on multiple levels and stood the most out of anyone to gain from claiming victory over them. Actually in a funny way she was probably the most "on the same level" as the kids. A lot of the other villains are either near-mindless monsters who just want to destroy, or have insanely convoluted goals that tie into machinations grander than even the story really wants to delve into I think. But the kids and Condesce were both in kind of the same boat. I think they both just wanted to be free from English's oppressive will and do whatever they wanted. Which in the Condesce's case means resurrecting troll kind and starting a new empire, but still. It almost seems sad now that I think about it that they couldn't have worked together. But that's what makes her the better villain, and why she's one of the only major threats that is dealt with directly and solely by the kids.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 20, 2016 19:02:44 GMT
I don't know about that trend. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but it sounds like you're trying to make a point that they should have faced their problems instead of running, even though I think it's pretty clear doing that would have gotten them killed pointlessly. And it's not like running into bigger problems was actually a consequence of those decisions. I'm not saying what they did was wrong, I'm just saying that it is a trend that exists, and the Story never adressed that Trend as something to be resolved or subverted. So when the End was a pretty clear example of the first step of the Trend i.e. leaving a problem, we shouldn't be surprised that the second part also happens i.e. new problems.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Nov 20, 2016 21:27:32 GMT
Unless you get a God Tier Rogue of Heart to rip all his pieces apart. -snort- yeah ok good luck with that You don't need luck when you've got a kid (John) that can hop into any time line, find the person they need and then place them where they're needed. And we know from Collide that God Tier Rogues of Heart did exist in some time lines. Hell, maybe a ghost would do. Dead God Tier Feferi still had her healing powers.
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Post by Gab on Nov 22, 2016 0:33:50 GMT
I'm not saying what they did was wrong, I'm just saying that it is a trend that exists, and the Story never adressed that Trend as something to be resolved or subverted. So when the End was a pretty clear example of the first step of the Trend i.e. leaving a problem, we shouldn't be surprised that the second part also happens i.e. new problems. I still don't know if that really qualifies as a trend. I can think of one major example, maybe two. And even then, this trend can be broken at any time for any reason. It's not a rule of the story, it's an observation of one. But I suppose I see what you are saying. However, you also said the new problems are worse than the old problems in this trend, which feels an important detail to me. So far, we've seen no sign of these problems being worse. In fact they're quite minor. This week's snapdate didn't even feel the need to address it. It's some pretty small potatoes that we're supposing justifies the story continuing, as opposed to something else being the reason. You don't need luck when you've got a kid (John) that can hop into any time line, find the person they need and then place them where they're needed. And we know from Collide that God Tier Rogues of Heart did exist in some time lines. Hell, maybe a ghost would do. Dead God Tier Feferi still had her healing powers. I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Either to jump to a point in English's timeline when he's vulnerable, which we've gotten into before, or getting someone powerful enough to take him down in the present, which seems impossible. I mean, Dirk's title is essentially destroyer of souls, so you'd think he'd have the advantage, right? And he's been training to take down Lord English, so he's probably as strong as any God Tier. We know he finds his way to Caliborn, and fails epically to destroy his soul, all he can do is transfer it into something seemingly benign. Davepetasprite^2 also supposed they could take down Lord English, and haven't fared much better so far. If neither of them were up to the task, exactly who is supposed to be powerful enough to do it?
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 22, 2016 1:43:15 GMT
I mean, Dirk's title is essentially destroyer of souls, so you'd think he'd have the advantage, right? And he's been training to take down Lord English, so he's probably as strong as any God Tier. We know he finds his way to Caliborn, and fails epically to destroy his soul, all he can do is transfer it into something seemingly benign. Davepetasprite^2 also supposed they could take down Lord English, and haven't fared much better so far. If neither of them were up to the task, exactly who is supposed to be powerful enough to do it? More Lords and Muses? If nothing else, I'm sure they could at least counteract him, such as the Lord of Rage keeping him occupied with never-ending fisticuffs, or the Muse of Life creating new Lives and Universes just as fast as he can destroy them. Besides that, I wonder if someone could just gather up the pieces of Caliborn's broken clock and repair it. Might need some sort of JuJu to do so, but it seems like we can't go 5 steps without tripping over a new one, despite their supposed rarity. Or maybe even just some specific Hero of Time powers. Dave managed to make a sword that could be freely scrolled up and down it's own timestream. Could the same tech be applied to the clock debris, and just rewind it to before it was broken? What about Hephaestus? He is A) A Time Denizen and B) Specialises in fixing/forging things. There's a lot of possibilities.
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