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Post by renegadeshroom on Dec 11, 2016 1:12:33 GMT
One thing I've always disliked is the way Roxy's alcoholism got handled. She seemed to have handled it quite fine, and that's what annoys me. She bloody went cold turkey, yet we get no sign of her struggling with it. I also especially hate how there's no real 'alcohol is bad' message. Instead it gets treated like the usual 'alcohol makes people funny', which is honestly not right. I don't know if you're an alcoholic and I don't want to step on anyone's toes in this regard, but there's a pretty good write up by an alcoholic who thought that the Lalondes' alcoholism was pretty well done in the comic? Here.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Dec 11, 2016 1:22:26 GMT
One thing I've always disliked is the way Roxy's alcoholism got handled. She seemed to have handled it quite fine, and that's what annoys me. She bloody went cold turkey, yet we get no sign of her struggling with it. I also especially hate how there's no real 'alcohol is bad' message. Instead it gets treated like the usual 'alcohol makes people funny', which is honestly not right. I don't know if you're an alcoholic and I don't want to step on anyone's toes in this regard, but there's a pretty good write up by an alcoholic who thought that the Lalondes' alcoholism was pretty well done in the comic? Here. No I'm not. I guess I've always thought that alcoholism is something that's not easy to get over and Roxy got over it too easily, because that's what I've heard from people IRL. :\ EDIT: I've read it and I do agree with quite a lot of points that were mentioned. Roxy was fine in the beginning since that's what alcohol does to you; it makes you happy, not worse. Heck I know this since I know what the feeling of being drunk is like. It's just the way it kind of got brushed over when she was giving it up that was bothering me.
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Post by drifloon on Dec 11, 2016 18:20:09 GMT
I mean, IIRC there was a part after the trickster arc where Roxy admitted she was putting on a brave face about it and that it had been harder to give up than she wanted to admit, as evidenced by how she immediately went for the drink again as soon as Trickster Mode took effect and removed her inhibitions. She also talked about how she felt like she couldn't face Dirk afterwards because he'd be disappointed in her for relapsing, which was pretty powerful.
Not going to say it was an incredibly nuanced portrayal, but the comic did at least acknowledge that it wasn't as easy for her to get over as it might have seemed and that she did still have insecurities about it, even though it's kind of a case of "telling rather than showing" which Homestuck has often been guilty of. And for what it's worth, I feel like her entering the session and being physically with her friends kind of makes sense as something that would push her to stop drinking. Accountability and knowing other people will know if you relapse is one of the biggest things that helps break a habit of any kind, and having a lot of exciting and fulfilling things going on to distract yourself is another big help - suddenly being in SBURB and having her first human contact in her life is enough of a shake-up to be a fairly believable thing to be able to keep her occupied and let her keep leading her thoughts away from drink for a while in that sense. The actual portrayal of her struggle to give up is very minimal and certainly doesn't get much focus at all, but it didn't feel like it was completely shrugged off with barely any justification either, at least in my opinion.
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Post by mementovivere on Dec 12, 2016 0:33:16 GMT
As someone who's got some substance abuse issues and is friends with many full-blown alcoholics (I went to a party college, was in something that refers to itself as a "drinking club with a running problem", currently work in a bar, etc), I personally really like how Roxy's alcoholism was handled, and the post that renegadeshroom posted nails it perfectly IMO. The whole thing where her friends just treat it as a funny thing, while semi-jokingly laughing about "haha maaaaybe you shouldn't be so drunk so early but whatever!" is spot-on, and quite frankly I went YEARS of my life with no idea what unhealthy levels of alcohol consumption looked like just because drinking constantly was soooooo normalized in my social circles. Shit, I identified with Roxy so much that I used to get drunk at home alone and roleplay with people on trollmegle as Roxy, and wanted to cosplay as a genderbent version of her partly so I'd have an excuse to drink constantly at cons... so when she finally started addressing her problem in the story, it was kind of eye-opening for me.
It may have helped to see more CONSEQUENCES of her drinking (although we do see her making unwise personal decisions, getting hungover, lacking coordination, using alcohol to cope with negative emotions, etc) and I do agree that her getting over her alcoholism was kind of glossed over, but a lot of that's due to the fact that months of their session was shown over the course of a single flash... and if we're being honest, it would be pretty boring to have extended portions of the story devoted to Roxy complaining that she wants a drink.
To be fair though, I think that lack of focus on her recovery was part of the point of the way the depiction of their session and the trickster arc were structured, which is all about the importance of NOT sweeping your personal problems under a rug and pretending everything is okay when it's not. First we're shown months of the four of them doing pretty well, and we're ostensibly left with the impression that they all basically over their previous personal problems with no issues. Jake and Dirk are inseparable, Roxy's sober and adventuring with Jane and neither of them are pining over boys. THEN we find out that no, their personal problems were not solved by a magical game, and actually their issues were all just bubbling under the surface waiting for a catalyst to make them all explode. All their personal problems come rushing to light in embarrassing ways (confessing feelings, getting wasted, practically wanting to have an orgy, self-loathing, etc), until finally the intoxication ends, the hangover sets in, and they're forced to deal with painful reality by doing what they SHOULD have been doing all along: TALKING to each other about it, and communicating in healthier ways.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Dec 12, 2016 11:02:05 GMT
Yeah you guys actually bring up really good points that I didn't consider. To be honest I haven't read homestuck all the trickster mode part in awhile so my memory of it is quite hazy. I may have to reread it again to see if her giving up on her alcohol did get a mention. :\
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Dec 12, 2016 16:09:26 GMT
Huh. It seems that those who don't like how Roxy's alcoholism was portrayed and feel it trivializes the issue are the ones who've never dealt with alcoholism, and those who have dealt with such issues like the way Roxy's problem was portrayed. I did not expect that. I guess from what I've gathered is that those who haven't dealt with such issues only see the big picture of Roxy having a problem and getting over without any shown issues, but those with experience in such things recognize the accurately portrayed details of the situation that those without such experience don't notice.
Though I suppose I am one of those with no experience regarding alcoholism, so it's possible I'm still interpreting the situation wrong.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 14, 2016 5:55:48 GMT
Alright, let's see if I can go for a truly unpopular opinion: Kankri's criticisms of Porrim's feminism are actually correct. Kankri points out that gender is actually meaningless to the Beforan society because of its irrelevance to reproduction or ability and thus the society had no grounds from which to build gender roles on, not when it had a far more distinct categorization to build roles of off: The Haemospectrum. Instead, all of Porrim's complaints are actually of the Haemospectrum where gender imbalance happens to be a secondary effect of the issue. The two main points we see her bring up are as follows: >Beforan Society is patriarchal because the majority of high bloods are male. Well, already we can see what the real issue is here: The High Bloods are in charge. And the reason they are in charge is not because of their Gender, but because of their Lifespan and Strength i.e. the actual functional differences. That most of them are Male is simply an unfortunate quirk of their biology, nothing to do with the society/culture. >The other point she brings up is how she would've been slated for Mother Grub care. But again it's the same issue: It's not because of her Gender, it's because of her Blood Type, which has far more meaningful links to the Mother Grub than her Gender does.
I'm just curious about the implications of this. It seems clear that Hussie's intent was to make Kankri the bogus, failing Social Justice Advocate, while making Porrim the more reasonable, relatable type, but if I'm right then that seems to have partially backfired. Was this perhaps a really subtle jab at actual feminism since those who critique real feminism often say they make the same mistake Porrim makes here? Or maybe Hussie just made a legitimate mistake by trying to make a sincere approach to an issue through a species that isn't affected by said issue, and thus couldn't write convincing arguments through them?
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Dec 14, 2016 18:02:35 GMT
Alright, let's see if I can go for a truly unpopular opinion: Kankri's criticisms of Porrim's feminism are actually correct. Kankri points out that gender is actually meaningless to the Beforan society because of its irrelevance to reproduction or ability and thus the society had no grounds from which to build gender roles on, not when it had a far more distinct categorization to build roles of off: The Haemospectrum. Instead, all of Porrim's complaints are actually of the Haemospectrum where gender imbalance happens to be a secondary effect of the issue. The two main points we see her bring up are as follows: >Beforan Society is patriarchal because the majority of high bloods are male. Well, already we can see what the real issue is here: The High Bloods are in charge. And the reason they are in charge is not because of their Gender, but because of their Lifespan and Strength i.e. the actual functional differences. That most of them are Male is simply an unfortunate quirk of their biology, nothing to do with the society/culture. >The other point she brings up is how she would've been slated for Mother Grub care. But again it's the same issue: It's not because of her Gender, it's because of her Blood Type, which has far more meaningful links to the Mother Grub than her Gender does. I'm just curious about the implications of this. It seems clear that Hussie's intent was to make Kankri the bogus, failing Social Justice Advocate, while making Porrim the more reasonable, relatable type, but if I'm right then that seems to have partially backfired. Was this perhaps a really subtle jab at actual feminism since those who critique real feminism often say they make the same mistake Porrim makes here? Or maybe Hussie just made a legitimate mistake by trying to make a sincere approach to an issue through a species that isn't affected by said issue, and thus couldn't write convincing arguments through them? To make matters worse, many of the things Kankri speaks out against actually do seem like problems some trolls might face. Kankri is often characterized as being rude and arrogant under the mask of social justice, but it's always seemed to me that he really is trying to do good and doesn't realize how rude he's being sometimes. I made a big rant about this issue in the past, and I'd love to link to that, but it was lost with the old forums.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 14, 2016 18:07:59 GMT
Alright, let's see if I can go for a truly unpopular opinion: Kankri's criticisms of Porrim's feminism are actually correct. Kankri points out that gender is actually meaningless to the Beforan society because of its irrelevance to reproduction or ability and thus the society had no grounds from which to build gender roles on, not when it had a far more distinct categorization to build roles of off: The Haemospectrum. Instead, all of Porrim's complaints are actually of the Haemospectrum where gender imbalance happens to be a secondary effect of the issue. The two main points we see her bring up are as follows: >Beforan Society is patriarchal because the majority of high bloods are male. Well, already we can see what the real issue is here: The High Bloods are in charge. And the reason they are in charge is not because of their Gender, but because of their Lifespan and Strength i.e. the actual functional differences. That most of them are Male is simply an unfortunate quirk of their biology, nothing to do with the society/culture. >The other point she brings up is how she would've been slated for Mother Grub care. But again it's the same issue: It's not because of her Gender, it's because of her Blood Type, which has far more meaningful links to the Mother Grub than her Gender does. I'm just curious about the implications of this. It seems clear that Hussie's intent was to make Kankri the bogus, failing Social Justice Advocate, while making Porrim the more reasonable, relatable type, but if I'm right then that seems to have partially backfired. Was this perhaps a really subtle jab at actual feminism since those who critique real feminism often say they make the same mistake Porrim makes here? Or maybe Hussie just made a legitimate mistake by trying to make a sincere approach to an issue through a species that isn't affected by said issue, and thus couldn't write convincing arguments through them? I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Personally, I think it was just a mistake. Hussie's clever but I think he overestimates his own cleverness sometimes. Usually when he tries to make fun of shit. This is why I think it would've better served the comic if it hadn't been established that some castes are mostly female or male. For one, just for my own selfish interests, I love the idea of male Jade bloods, female High bloods, male Fuchsia bloods, etc. I think it adds an interesting dynamic. For another, as you said, it kind of destroys any gender issues entirely, because people are assigned jobs based on their blood, and if their blood caste just happens to be all female or male, that's just an unfortunate side affect. If Jade bloods came in both male and female but it was just the females who got stuck taking care of the Mothergrub....well then there you go.
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Post by TrickleJest on Dec 14, 2016 19:09:19 GMT
Alright, let's see if I can go for a truly unpopular opinion: Kankri's criticisms of Porrim's feminism are actually correct. Kankri points out that gender is actually meaningless to the Beforan society because of its irrelevance to reproduction or ability and thus the society had no grounds from which to build gender roles on, not when it had a far more distinct categorization to build roles of off: The Haemospectrum. Instead, all of Porrim's complaints are actually of the Haemospectrum where gender imbalance happens to be a secondary effect of the issue. The two main points we see her bring up are as follows: >Beforan Society is patriarchal because the majority of high bloods are male. Well, already we can see what the real issue is here: The High Bloods are in charge. And the reason they are in charge is not because of their Gender, but because of their Lifespan and Strength i.e. the actual functional differences. That most of them are Male is simply an unfortunate quirk of their biology, nothing to do with the society/culture. >The other point she brings up is how she would've been slated for Mother Grub care. But again it's the same issue: It's not because of her Gender, it's because of her Blood Type, which has far more meaningful links to the Mother Grub than her Gender does. I'm just curious about the implications of this. It seems clear that Hussie's intent was to make Kankri the bogus, failing Social Justice Advocate, while making Porrim the more reasonable, relatable type, but if I'm right then that seems to have partially backfired. Was this perhaps a really subtle jab at actual feminism since those who critique real feminism often say they make the same mistake Porrim makes here? Or maybe Hussie just made a legitimate mistake by trying to make a sincere approach to an issue through a species that isn't affected by said issue, and thus couldn't write convincing arguments through them? I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Personally, I think it was just a mistake. Hussie's clever but I think he overestimates his own cleverness sometimes. Usually when he tries to make fun of shit. This is why I think it would've better served the comic if it hadn't been established that some castes are mostly female or male. For one, just for my own selfish interests, I love the idea of male Jade bloods, female High bloods, male Fuchsia bloods, etc. I think it adds an interesting dynamic. For another, as you said, it kind of destroys any gender issues entirely, because people are assigned jobs based on their blood, and if their blood caste just happens to be all female or male, that's just an unfortunate side affect. If Jade bloods came in both male and female but it was just the females who got stuck taking care of the Mothergrub....well then there you go. I'm not sure that one's unpopular, it's been on my mind for a long time. I can't call myself a feminist, but I do think everyone deserves equal rights, so I'm 100% pro-feminist. But in my opinion femiNazis are deranged.
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Georgie
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Post by Georgie on Dec 14, 2016 19:57:31 GMT
It's pretty funny to think about now, but I initially got the impression that Porrim was intended to be reminiscent of certain advocates of men's rights. Between some of her lines, her typing quirk and the fact that she's Kankri's "opposite" in a sense, I didn't think that she was supposed to be any less of a joke character than the other Beforan trolls. It wasn't until I'd got to the end of Openbound and read Hussie's comments on her that I realised that I was meant to have taken her seriously.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 14, 2016 20:12:00 GMT
I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Personally, I think it was just a mistake. Hussie's clever but I think he overestimates his own cleverness sometimes. Usually when he tries to make fun of shit. This is why I think it would've better served the comic if it hadn't been established that some castes are mostly female or male. For one, just for my own selfish interests, I love the idea of male Jade bloods, female High bloods, male Fuchsia bloods, etc. I think it adds an interesting dynamic. For another, as you said, it kind of destroys any gender issues entirely, because people are assigned jobs based on their blood, and if their blood caste just happens to be all female or male, that's just an unfortunate side affect. If Jade bloods came in both male and female but it was just the females who got stuck taking care of the Mothergrub....well then there you go. I'm not sure that one's unpopular, it's been on my mind for a long time. I can't call myself a feminist, but I do think everyone deserves equal rights, so I'm 100% pro-feminist. But in my opinion femiNazis are deranged. FemiNazis are mythical, or at the very least have so little power there's no point in even worrying about them. There isn't a femiNazi equivalent of Gamergate, or Republican governors or George Tiller murderers, after all. On another note, isn't this kind of the problem with Feferi and Eridan too? I mean, it's obvious what kind of slime Eridan's supposed to be an allusion too, but...the thing of it is, in real life women are at a societal disadvantage compared to men. Men have the most power, men have the most financial mobility and stability, men have the most influence...so that's part of the reason things like MRAs and negging are so repugnant. It's punching down. But the problem with that is that Feferi is not only higher on the hemospectrum than him, she's a goddamn heiress, and the fact that this entire species is seemingly exclusively ruled by women points to them possibly not being at a disadvantage compared to men or at least in general not being seen as lesser. (The fact that female trolls don't have a history of being disadvantaged by their biology the way human women have is another point worth taking into account.) And that's without getting into the possibility of troll sexes being less distinct from each other than humans' are.
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Post by ashercrane on Dec 14, 2016 20:28:53 GMT
I'm not sure that one's unpopular, it's been on my mind for a long time. I can't call myself a feminist, but I do think everyone deserves equal rights, so I'm 100% pro-feminist. But in my opinion femiNazis are deranged. FemiNazis are mythical, or at the very least have so little power there's no point in even worrying about them. There isn't a femiNazi equivalent of Gamergate, or Republican governors or George Tiller murderers, after all. Little power =/= not really really loud.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 14, 2016 20:38:16 GMT
FemiNazis are mythical, or at the very least have so little power there's no point in even worrying about them. There isn't a femiNazi equivalent of Gamergate, or Republican governors or George Tiller murderers, after all. Little power =/= not really really loud. Really really loud ≠ Can ever actually do anything and should thereby be worried about. If the really really loud part is even the case. I run into more dudebros and MRAs on the internet than feminazis, but maybe I just don't frequent the right circles.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Dec 14, 2016 20:38:42 GMT
Man, I totally forgot Kankri and Porrim discussed any of that stuff. If anything I always read that as a bunch of fluff made up on the spot for the sake of Tumblr satire and all that.
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Dec 14, 2016 23:26:07 GMT
It's pretty funny to think about now, but I initially got the impression that Porrim was intended to be reminiscent of certain advocates of men's rights. Between some of her lines, her typing quirk and the fact that she's Kankri's "opposite" in a sense, I didn't think that she was supposed to be any less of a joke character than the other Beforan trolls. It wasn't until I'd got to the end of Openbound and read Hussie's comments on her that I realised that I was meant to have taken her seriously. To be honest, I still hold the (admittedly optimistic) view that she is intended to be a parody character, just of a different sort of SJW than Kankri. I mean, why would he make a whole bunch of parody characters and have one random one not be? Furthermore, all his comments really said was that she was better at being a SJW than Kankri, which is true, but not nessesarily in opposition to her being a parody character. That said, I don't feel like Hussie intentionally made her claims weak, I just feel like he had trouble making a feminist-based character when the race she was part of had no such issues, and thus had to force in some justification.
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Post by TrickleJest on Dec 15, 2016 9:23:37 GMT
Little power =/= not really really loud. Really really loud ≠ Can ever actually do anything and should thereby be worried about. If the really really loud part is even the case. I run into more dudebros and MRAs on the internet than feminazis, but maybe I just don't frequent the right circles. "Dudebros"? You mean these cancerous "meninists" or simply stereotypical 90s dudes? Because if it's the latter then they cannot be compared to femiNazis, they're simple bros who might use cringeworthy language but mean no harm.
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Post by drifloon on Dec 15, 2016 16:05:15 GMT
Porrim's "feminism" and Kankri's presentation is a really poorly written and forced attempt at social commentary, yeah. I've seen it discussed on tumblr before. A lot of what Kankri says actually seems like good insight into his culture and real social issues, but his bad presentation and holier-than-thou attitude and his getting caught up on tiny details detract from the legitimate points he makes. I think Kankri's character would be perfectly fine presented that way, but then it's like Hussie feels the need to stress that no, he's just a total hypocrite and he doesn't really care about real issues at all and forcing this whole parallel with someone who cares about a "real" issue like feminism, just kind of brushing over the fact that feminism can't apply the same way to trolls.
It's weird because it's not like he forgot about trolls not experiencing sexism in the same way as humans, because there is that whole discussion about the "fuchsia down matriarchy, purple down partriarchy" and Kankri's rightly pointing out that trolls don't have rigid gender roles in part because they're a binormative species and thus haven't built gender roles around reproduction, but it feels like he still wants us to just brush over all that and say that Kankri's being stupid and championing meaningless made-up concepts while ignoring the obviously real issue of sexism against women and just pretend their world is exactly the same as ours for the sake of the parallel, which is really jarring. He even has Kankri condescendingly tell Latula how she's "accomplished so much, for a girl" just to shove it in our faces that he's a sexist jerk, but like, again, that kind of sexism makes absolutely no sense in the context of a troll culture and we've never seen any evidence that female trolls are culturally regarded as weaker/inferior at all, and plenty of evidence against it, so...? It's just really weird writing.
It also doesn't help that we're apparently meant to see Porrim talking down to Kankri and treating him like a child and ignoring his discomfort with that as "cute" according to Hussie's commentary, despite her being higher up in the caste system than him, when they come from a planet that's specifically mentioned to have issues with the infantilisation of lower classes, and Kankri literally talks about that and it's part of what Porrim just brushes off and acts like he's stupid for while calling him out on not supporting her actually important issues (you know, the ones that affect people like her - even though, again, he's basically a marginalised minority as a mutant and she's in a pretty high caste), and...yeah...there's a lot of issues with their relationship, unforunately. Which is a shame because it could easily be an interesting and multifacted relationship exactly as it is, just without all this weird bias framing it where Hussie obviously wants us to sympathise with Porrim and dismiss Kankri despite the actual portrayal of the situation seeming much less black-and-white than that.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 15, 2016 20:20:33 GMT
Really really loud ≠ Can ever actually do anything and should thereby be worried about. If the really really loud part is even the case. I run into more dudebros and MRAs on the internet than feminazis, but maybe I just don't frequent the right circles. "Dudebros"? You mean these cancerous "meninists" or simply stereotypical 90s dudes? Because if it's the latter then they cannot be compared to femiNazis, they're simple bros who might use cringeworthy language but mean no harm. Definition.
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Post by ashercrane on Dec 16, 2016 1:49:39 GMT
"Dudebros"? You mean these cancerous "meninists" or simply stereotypical 90s dudes? Because if it's the latter then they cannot be compared to femiNazis, they're simple bros who might use cringeworthy language but mean no harm. Definition.Definitely because you frequent the wrong areas.
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Post by TrickleJest on Dec 16, 2016 9:32:48 GMT
Definitely because you frequent the wrong areas. Is that aimed at me or Alley? Also, Alley, it's very unethical to think that dude bros are comparable to femiNazis. I don't want to fight you or anything, but what you presented is borderline offensive.
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Post by ashercrane on Dec 16, 2016 14:02:05 GMT
Definitely because you frequent the wrong areas. Is that aimed at me or Alley? Also, Alley, it's very unethical to think that dude bros are comparable to femiNazis. I don't want to fight you or anything, but what you presented is borderline offensive. Alley said "I run into far more dudebros and MRAs on the internet than feminazis, but I may not frequent the right circles." So I was confirming... definitely not the right cicles. I've encountered many more people who have blown up at me at the slightest whiff of anything that could be taken with the slightest hint of sexism, but few of these "dudebros" That said, this thread is unpopular opinions on homestuck, not unpopular opinions as a whole, and I fear it may have been slighlty derailed.
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Post by drifloon on Dec 16, 2016 14:23:08 GMT
I mean, I've never once been unfairly called out on sexism by anyone, and I've barely seen it happen anywhere else outside of places like tumblr. Whereas "dudebro" culture and its underlying issue of insecure masculinity is a pretty widespread problem that carries a lot of misogynistic, homophobic and transphobic sentiments that have serious real-world repercussions. It seems to me like you'd have to be working off a pretty weird metric to say that people who promote those sentiments are somehow "less bad" than these so-called "Feminazis" who, as far as I know, don't really do much except say stupid things on the Internet that no one else takes very seriously. So there's a problem of conflicting definitions here somewhere.
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Georgie
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Post by Georgie on Dec 16, 2016 15:00:31 GMT
Funnily enough, I rarely come across fauxfems ("feminists" who aren't very good at the whole equality thing) on the Internet unless I actively search for them, but I seem to bump into them constantly in real life. I genuinely stopped going to my uni's LGBT meetings because of them. They sadly have a rather strong presence in the National Union of Students, which has developed a reputation for not being the most progressive organisation around.
I can't say I've ever met a feminazi though; they're thankfully exceptionally rare.
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Post by TrickleJest on Dec 16, 2016 15:23:21 GMT
Alright, guys, Ashercrane is right, let's keep this MSPA-only from now on.
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