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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 22:00:49 GMT
Oh, here's another Act 7 complaint I have that I haven't seen anyone make yet: Caliborn breaking the Clock: Why is that an Act 7 thing? It wasn't a climax or twist or reveal in any sense. We already knew that Caliborn was unconditionally immortal, and that he had Clockwork Magykks. We already knew that said power involved breaking the game in some way, as Aranea said that such a power was outside YoodlyBuggers jurisdiction. We know roughly when he got the power from Caliborn's masterpiece. Really the only thing all that brought to the table was the exact details of the power's origin. But such 'enlightenment' doesn't do much. It doesn't make any previously unanswered questions come together. It doesn't help us see older events in a new light that makes them make more sense. This scene could've been a part of Caliborn's masterpiece and freed up some time and space in Act 7 for more pressing matters to be resolved and answered. Thematic reasons, most likely. Act 7 was meant to showcase Lord English's start and end in many ways - his universe's birth, the origin of his powers, the sacrifice of his sister and his ultimate downfall. As inconclusive as the nature of LE's demise seems to be, I'm pretty sure Hussie wants us to extrapolate the specifics from what we already knew and what was shown in the flash, at least before any possible confirmation on the epilogue. I feel pretty confident saying Lord English was beaten in SOME way, just not super sure on how exactly - that's the real final piece we still haven't put together, or maybe found.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 22:04:30 GMT
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 13, 2016 22:07:06 GMT
He's talking about the Paradox Space comic The Inaugural Death of Mr. Seven. The one about the Felt that left on a to be continued.
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Post by psychoticbark on Apr 13, 2016 22:07:07 GMT
I don't know whether to feel more sorry for those deluding themselves that this is a temporary psyche, or for those who accept this is the end and feel completely betrayed by the lack of closure.
Me? I liked the open ending. There's lots to play with here, both in terms of tracing a storyline and in grasping for Hussie's artistic / thematic aims - the latter are the most interesting to me. I recognize that many readers just wanted the Big Man to tell them a story - but wow, you sure chose a big dumb beautiful horse to bet on. Although Hussie knows the rules, he loves breaking them whenever he can in this phenomenally inventive work. Why were you so certain he'd meet your expectations?
I'm nevertheless somewhat disappointed though, because I think there was the opportunity for an open ending that still had fun weaving a few more of the very many open plot threads together. I wanted to see Andrew Hussie play the game one more time. He's so good at the clever convolutions, and at dialog - so I wish we had those key elements of Homestuck represented in its closing.
And I'm sad that almost no-one enjoys the idea we really can weave our own narrative here in this work that has been so much about reader involvement. The author made a news post containing a reader command that we "draw our own conclusions." I was sort of expecting a thousand fans to have done just that by now.
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Post by flagellumVagueness on Apr 13, 2016 22:07:28 GMT
So, after a whole day of thinking about it, I think I've come to terms with Act 7, and I think I've got a pretty good interpretation of how one can reconcile it with the Masterpiece in a way that provides a satisfying conclusion to the story. It also has the added bonus that an epilogue could make it clear that it happened while still being an "epilogue" and not part of the "main story". Here goes:
Caliborn was tricked. The house juju was never something that could be used as a weapon, it was always the gateway to the new universe. The kids weren't trapped in it, unless being sent to the new universe can be said to be a "trap". At different points in time, all the characters travel through it, and after AltCalliope destroys the Green Sun, and Vriska tricks LE into destroying the juju, his last escape route (notice you never see her or the rest of the army after the juju shatters, because they've already escaped!), there's nothing left in the old universe but LE, stranded.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 13, 2016 22:10:55 GMT
So, after a whole day of thinking about it, I think I've come to terms with Act 7, and I think I've got a pretty good interpretation of how one can reconcile it with the Masterpiece in a way that provides a satisfying conclusion to the story. It also has the added bonus that an epilogue could make it clear that it happened while still being an "epilogue" and not part of the "main story". Here goes: Caliborn was tricked. The house juju was never something that could be used as a weapon, it was always the gateway to the new universe. The kids weren't trapped in it, unless being sent to the new universe can be said to be a "trap". At different points in time, all the characters travel through it, and after AltCalliope destroys the Green Sun, and Vriska tricks LE into destroying the juju, his last escape route (notice you never see her or the rest of the army after the juju shatters, because they've already escaped!), there's nothing left in the old universe but LE, stranded. So the B2 Kids from the Masterpiece ended up where? And if the B1 Kids from the Masterpiece ended up in the Universe, and the B1 Kids in the B2 Session also went through the door... there's a duplicate set in the universe? Well, I guess then you could make DaveKat and DaveJade both a thing then. EDIT: Also, if the Kids weren't trapped in it, then why did it Pulse and Glow with their Aspects?
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 13, 2016 22:15:13 GMT
So, after a whole day of thinking about it, I think I've come to terms with Act 7, and I think I've got a pretty good interpretation of how one can reconcile it with the Masterpiece in a way that provides a satisfying conclusion to the story. It also has the added bonus that an epilogue could make it clear that it happened while still being an "epilogue" and not part of the "main story". Here goes: Caliborn was tricked. The house juju was never something that could be used as a weapon, it was always the gateway to the new universe. The kids weren't trapped in it, unless being sent to the new universe can be said to be a "trap". At different points in time, all the characters travel through it, and after AltCalliope destroys the Green Sun, and Vriska tricks LE into destroying the juju, his last escape route (notice you never see her or the rest of the army after the juju shatters, because they've already escaped!), there's nothing left in the old universe but LE, stranded. So the B2 Kids from the Masterpiece ended up where? And if the B1 Kids from the Masterpiece ended up in the Universe, and the B1 Kids in the B2 Session also went through the door... there's a duplicate set in the universe? Well, I guess then you could make DaveKat and DaveJade both a thing then. They could have been folded into their alternate selves to become the sum of all their experiences, as per Remem8er.
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 13, 2016 22:20:37 GMT
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 13, 2016 22:20:59 GMT
Uh, guys, I know a bunch of you have been jumping out the windows, but the Hype Train has not actually stopped. Guys? Guys, this is serious! Guys, it passed the station a few miles back. Guys. I am still on the train. Guys? Guys! I am getting scared, guys, please do not leave me. Guys, I do not think I can get off; the train is speeding up.
Help.
*Disappears over the Horizon on the run-away Hype Train*
Seriously though, I thought this was a great ending. It was not exactly what I expected, but I think it was the best way to end this comic. I am confident that we will see most of the minor characters going about their new lives in the Epilogue.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 13, 2016 22:24:38 GMT
Describing "bad" as "unconventional" really doesn't make me feel any better about it. Homestuck has always been about as unconventional as it gets. But it's been great until now. We never even found out what happened to the magnetic wodka
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 13, 2016 22:27:48 GMT
Describing "bad" as "unconventional" really doesn't make me feel any better about it. Homestuck has always been about as unconventional as it gets. But it's been great until now. We never even found out what happened to the magnetic wodka John never used Barber's Best Friend
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 22:28:56 GMT
Right now I'm just waiting to wake up tomorrow and see if Act 7 is still the end of the comic at 4/14. If it is, then I'll probably apathy myself into forgetting about this comic. It's less painful than staying here arguing.
Then maybe if the epilogue is good, it will be. But I won't keep hoping for that.
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researcherwisemon
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Post by researcherwisemon on Apr 13, 2016 22:33:51 GMT
In the #413_It_all_ends memo on pesterchum, I came to a realization. I want to scream at everyone who proposes this "fanfiction ending". Fuck that. Fanfics are fanfics. Not the real story. I shouldn't need to read fanfics to figure out what happen. Now I'm left to wonder if the masterpiece was canon or not. What was even the point of sucking the beta kids into the juju if that was never going to appear again, nor anything was leading into that scene? I'm not suggesting that you should have to read a fanfic to understand the story or the ending. When I mentioned fanfics, I wasn't even referring to ones specifically happening relating to the ending itself, but the various alternate paths that diverged well before hand. Discounting fanfics for a moment, there are countless possible outcomes for the ending here that could exist! Each one of them have as valid of an influence on reality as the next one! It doesn't matter if they loop back around to the "Alpha" time line or not. They still influence the ultimate ending to some degree or another. All I'm saying is... the open ending is simply the manifestation of the possible outcomes each becoming their own thing. Fans writing their own outcomes are simply ways for people to explore those different divergent paths.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 13, 2016 22:42:23 GMT
I want to scream at everyone who proposes this "fanfiction ending". Fuck that. Fanfics are fanfics. Not the real story. I shouldn't need to read fanfics to figure out what happen. Now I'm left to wonder if the masterpiece was canon or not. What was even the point of sucking the beta kids into the juju if that was never going to appear again, nor anything was leading into that scene? I'm not suggesting that you should have to read a fanfic to understand the story or the ending. When I mentioned fanfics, I wasn't even referring to ones specifically happening relating to the ending itself, but the various alternate paths that diverged well before hand. Discounting fanfics for a moment, there are countless possible outcomes for the ending here that could exist! Each one of them have as valid of an influence on reality as the next one! It doesn't matter if they loop back around to the "Alpha" time line or not. They still influence the ultimate ending to some degree or another. All I'm saying is... the open ending is simply the manifestation of the possible outcomes each becoming their own thing. Fans writing their own outcomes are simply ways for people to explore those different divergent paths. But we've been following the alpha timeline pretty much this entire time. We can all write about possible alternate timelines, but it's not a replacement for finally seeing the main plot of the alpha timeline come together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 22:45:16 GMT
I want to scream at everyone who proposes this "fanfiction ending". Fuck that. Fanfics are fanfics. Not the real story. I shouldn't need to read fanfics to figure out what happen. Now I'm left to wonder if the masterpiece was canon or not. What was even the point of sucking the beta kids into the juju if that was never going to appear again, nor anything was leading into that scene? I'm not suggesting that you should have to read a fanfic to understand the story or the ending. When I mentioned fanfics, I wasn't even referring to ones specifically happening relating to the ending itself, but the various alternate paths that diverged well before hand. Discounting fanfics for a moment, there are countless possible outcomes for the ending here that could exist! Each one of them have as valid of an influence on reality as the next one! It doesn't matter if they loop back around to the "Alpha" time line or not. They still influence the ultimate ending to some degree or another. All I'm saying is... the open ending is simply the manifestation of the possible outcomes each becoming their own thing. Fans writing their own outcomes are simply ways for people to explore those different divergent paths. it's quite bad even as open ending, because there're events from various points of time and shreds of mechanics we know nothing about (Union Jack is one big WTF for one, beginning with how he even exists post-retcon and ending with his death resulting in black hole because REASONS). For me there's even no point to begin "drawing my own conclusions" from.
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researcherwisemon
MOB1US DOUBL3 R34CH4ROUND
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Post by researcherwisemon on Apr 13, 2016 22:52:46 GMT
*shrugs* Fine. It was just a stupid revelation brought on by a pester-memo. Probably is useless in the long run.
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Post by melonlord on Apr 13, 2016 22:52:54 GMT
So, after a whole day of thinking about it, I think I've come to terms with Act 7, and I think I've got a pretty good interpretation of how one can reconcile it with the Masterpiece in a way that provides a satisfying conclusion to the story. It also has the added bonus that an epilogue could make it clear that it happened while still being an "epilogue" and not part of the "main story". Here goes: Caliborn was tricked. The house juju was never something that could be used as a weapon, it was always the gateway to the new universe. The kids weren't trapped in it, unless being sent to the new universe can be said to be a "trap". At different points in time, all the characters travel through it, and after AltCalliope destroys the Green Sun, and Vriska tricks LE into destroying the juju, his last escape route (notice you never see her or the rest of the army after the juju shatters, because they've already escaped!), there's nothing left in the old universe but LE, stranded. If the house juju is really nothing more than a gateway to Universe C, why does John sticking his arm in it give him retcon powers? Does it only function as a doorway in the presence of Lord English, or...? I'm trying to consider how this would work, but I don't see how simply putting a limb through a gate to the new universe would give someone extra-canonical powers. Unless it's just a regular effect of winning the game, and everyone has retcon powers now...?
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 13, 2016 22:55:37 GMT
Oh, here's another Act 7 complaint I have that I haven't seen anyone make yet: Caliborn breaking the Clock: Why is that an Act 7 thing? It wasn't a climax or twist or reveal in any sense. It gave us the origin of the cue ball as the clock pendulum, which explains why the cue ball as an alchemical component made something capable of interfering with LE immortality (Dave beheading Lord Jack) and of breaking the unbreakable katana, which otherwise made sense thematically but not mechanically. I suspect this also connects on to the cueball's use as bullet in killing Snowman. It also gave us the origin of Caliborn's particular immortality in literally ingesting the majyks of the clock, which makes sense of why he would be vulnerable to another component of the same clock. Come to think of it, we do now have both the beginning and the end of the unbreakable katana's timeline. Neat.
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 13, 2016 22:59:45 GMT
But we've been following the alpha timeline pretty much this entire time. We can all write about possible alternate timelines, but it's not a replacement for finally seeing the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Oh. I think I've just realised something. We can't possibly ever have seen the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Because the chunk of paradox space that collapsed into the black hole and trapped LE and Vriska and the army of ghosts in with Alt!Calliope forever also had Andrew in it.
The author's been cut off forever from the story. There's nobody to generate any more canon. Gosh, that is fiendish.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
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Post by imglasses on Apr 13, 2016 23:02:13 GMT
So, after a whole day of thinking about it, I think I've come to terms with Act 7, and I think I've got a pretty good interpretation of how one can reconcile it with the Masterpiece in a way that provides a satisfying conclusion to the story. It also has the added bonus that an epilogue could make it clear that it happened while still being an "epilogue" and not part of the "main story". Here goes: Caliborn was tricked. The house juju was never something that could be used as a weapon, it was always the gateway to the new universe. The kids weren't trapped in it, unless being sent to the new universe can be said to be a "trap". At different points in time, all the characters travel through it, and after AltCalliope destroys the Green Sun, and Vriska tricks LE into destroying the juju, his last escape route (notice you never see her or the rest of the army after the juju shatters, because they've already escaped!), there's nothing left in the old universe but LE, stranded. If the house juju is really nothing more than a gateway to Universe C, why does John sticking his arm in it give him retcon powers? Does it only function as a doorway in the presence of Lord English, or...? I'm trying to consider how this would work, but I don't see how simply putting a limb through a gate to the new universe would give someone extra-canonical powers. Unless it's just a regular effect of winning the game, and everyone has retcon powers now...? Why would the Yaldabaoth of Caliborn's session even have a small version of their victory door? Why would that be able to suck four people into it? For the most part, these aren't questions that we can answer based on what we know and some deduction. There just...isn't an answer. The comic ended before anything was answered, before we really even had hints of an answer. Wow, the point of the unresolved ending might have been to let us theorize more, but I've never felt less like theorizing in my life. I should probably go ahead and log off instead of complaining repeatedly. But we've been following the alpha timeline pretty much this entire time. We can all write about possible alternate timelines, but it's not a replacement for finally seeing the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Oh. I think I've just realised something. We can't possibly ever have seen the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Because the chunk of paradox space that collapsed into the black hole and trapped LE and Vriska and the army of ghosts in with Alt!Calliope forever also had Andrew in it.
The author's been cut off forever from the story. There's nobody to generate any more canon. Gosh, that is fiendish. Ha...this actually makes me feel a bit better about it. If we won't get any explanations, at least maybe we can have an explanation as to why we don't get any explanations.
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cookiefonster
Dead
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 13, 2016 23:03:04 GMT
But we've been following the alpha timeline pretty much this entire time. We can all write about possible alternate timelines, but it's not a replacement for finally seeing the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Oh. I think I've just realised something. We can't possibly ever have seen the main plot of the alpha timeline come together. Because the chunk of paradox space that collapsed into the black hole and trapped LE and Vriska and the army of ghosts in with Alt!Calliope forever also had Andrew in it.
The author's been cut off forever from the story. There's nobody to generate any more canon. Gosh, that is fiendish. Dammit that would be so displeasing but it also weirdly makes sense!!!
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The One Guy
Rust Maid
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Post by The One Guy on Apr 13, 2016 23:03:09 GMT
Finally got a chance to watch it! Honestly, contrary to popular opinion, and even turning my back on my own opinions from before watching it, I was happy with that ending! My first impression was that it was an awesome flash, certainly much better than Collide, and came to a great conclusion. Upon thinking on it more, I did get annoyed at certain things it didn't answer. But dwelling on it even further, I realized I don't really care. There are only three things tat really annoyed me about the ending: - It give no information about what lead up to the masterpiece.
- It doesn't tell us what the house Juju does or Lord English's fate.
- Vriska got exactly what she wanted and learns nothing.
But honestly, 1 and 2 can be fairly reasonably guessed at, so the only thing that really annoys me is #3. I'm not saying it's necessarily the best way this could end, and it is a bit annoying to have to wait through the omegapause for nothing surprising to happen, heck, maybe part of the reason I'm content with it is just apathy, but still, I'm content. As for an epilogue? I don't know if I want one. As much as in might clear things up for the fate of all the different characters, my desire for Homestuck to be finally over is stronger than my desire to tie up lose plot threads. At the very least, I'm not gonna wait in anticipation to see it; I just don't have any Homestuck hype left in me. But if there is one, here's a couple predictions (note that these are guesses, not desires): - Terezi turns down life in the new universe to hang out with Vriska in the dream bubbles.
- Either the pre-retcon go off to create the masterpiece, or the main kids do after having long, fulfilling lives on New!Earth.
And as a final note, I find it amusing that the last song of Homestuck is called "Overture."
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 23:05:06 GMT
I'm trying to consider how this would work, but I don't see how simply putting a limb through a gate to the new universe would give someone extra-canonical powers. Unless it's just a regular effect of winning the game, and everyone has retcon powers now...? Some considerations about the whole retcon business here. I don't know how the House Juju works and why it had that effect on John, but I'm quite sure "extra-canonical" are not the right words here. The retcon is basically a bigger scratch, and Paradox Space had it planned from the very beginning; nobody ever managed to actually escape predestination (see the other thread for details).
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 13, 2016 23:17:19 GMT
I think one of the main plot points that I'm pissed off about is that Blood powers never really got told what they actually did. I was expecting Karkat to finally use blood powers in the final or something.
Also what was the point of Remem8er? Did that even do anything? And the pre-retcon characters got shown but then never appeared again. I know they could have double-died, but that's rather sad for me considering they were the characters I cared about. And the fact that Karkat and Kanaya never appeared in Remem8er raises further questions to me.
And to think I've been going around recommending Homestuck to my friends. I feel embarrassed now lol. Maybe I should tell them that it's best to stop after Cascade since reading Act 6 just seems like a huge waste of time.
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Post by Neptz on Apr 13, 2016 23:20:44 GMT
You know. Even if the epilogue ties up all loose ends magically, I'll still be disappointing. A happy ending on such a easy note is not what I wanted for Homestuck. Sure, it could have a happy ending, but it's like we were lead to believe something incredibly bad would happen... and then... it just didn't. It was just. "The evil is defeated" and then everyone is happy. I don't mind a happy ending. A EASY happy ending on a story like THIS, however, is disappointing as all hell.
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