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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 13, 2016 18:56:36 GMT
Y'see, that's the kicker - Homestuck's a creation myth, therefore it'll end up about as cohesive as greek mythology
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 13, 2016 19:15:31 GMT
Man, this is not how I even envisioned the comic finale to be...All this bitterness and anger, it's pretty upsetting.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 13, 2016 19:32:04 GMT
I think I'm coming to peace with this ending, if it's the ending (still seriously doubting it). I still don't like it, but I've gotten to a place where I can still appreciate the comic.
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Post by sawkinator on Apr 13, 2016 19:40:30 GMT
I'm just gonna leave this here.I think I'll reserve further judgement on the ending until the epilogue, but. Yeah, I do want more resolution than what we were given.
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 13, 2016 19:42:45 GMT
The more I watch Act 7 again, the more I find it satisfying at levels of resolution that are not immediately obvious, and satisfying to me in some ways that seem to have been actively unsatisfying to others.
For one thing, we already know that the cherubs can't have been raised in the post-all-the-retcons timeline, because Caliborn has talked to Jake about Erisolsprite who does not exist in that timeline. So not getting any more on what happens to Gamzee is not an additional continuity problem. I'm happy to be sold on the notion that the black hole that erupts from Lord Jack's head swallows the fridge with Gamzee in it, along with the crowbar Slick was carrying, the cuestaff Lord Jack was carrying, and Lord Jack's pool ball eyes, and is how they all get to where they need to be in the cherub universe, similar to how Caliborn entered his session, but I am equally happy with the post-all-the-retcons timeline leading somewhere else entirely and Gamzee being trapped in a fridge in a black hole forever. It mildly bemuses me that not giving further character development to someone who has been explicitly and literally fridged is either a surprise or a problem.
Vriska not getting some scales of closure also did not strike me as a problem. It struck me as justice on the narrative's own terms. Ever since the retcon, it's been clear that Vriska left to her own devices is just as unpleasant and narcissistic as she ever was and has no intent or likelihood of becoming a better person. Andrew stopping her from being active in Collide, and then the scale we see her in Act 7, is just right, to my mind, for giving the perpetually attention-seeking spotlight thief the ending she deserves; we get what we need from it informationwise, she does not get to be the dramatic centre of attention.
Aradia gets to see "what happens when this whole place breaks apart". That's the resolution she's wanted all along.
Tavros has had his moment of resolution lampshaded about as heavily as humanly possible, with multiple different dance moves. I don't think his arc needs any further closure. (Personally, I'd have been somewhat happier if him escaping Vriska's baleful influence and toxic notions of what's important back on page 007943 had been his resolution.)
Sollux' metaphysical state has been an unresolvable mass of WTF since before Cascade. That's always struck me as kind of the point. Anything more definite there would actively weaken that, in the same way Andrew's talked about how giving Equius a more dignified or meaningful death would have weakened his characterisation.
I had kind of been hoping to see more GO!Vriska after retcon-Vriska berated her, but I am absolutely convinced that the fade-to-white end of Terezi:Remem8er is GO!Vriska and Terezi (at least) double-dying as paradox space collapses under the influence of Lord English mouth lasers, so I was already resigned on that front.
The sprites-squared don't need resolutions. The sprites-squared are resolutions; ultimate forms of what those particular teenagers might wish to be, predictably embarrassing to Rose's real self, and not at all what actual growing up looks like. They're wish-fulfilment figures. There's inherently nowhere further for them to go.
The business with the house juju and the Lord English battle seems as resolved as it needs to be at the fundamental levels. Caliborn's use of the house juju in the masterpiece traps the kids (it works for me for that to be in the cherub universe timeline rather than the Act 7 one, and I am happy to think of that as the timeline following on from John retrieving the ring before Aranea can); Vriska's second use of it frees them, by flipping the door into the new universe turnways. That's what matters there. The remainder of that fight occurs in a doomed and disintegrating space collapsing into the Alt!Calliope black hole never to be seen again, sfaict. The details before that point seem to have very little relevance to anything.
With regard to much of the mechanical stuff that came in during Act 6 (jujus, class and aspect stuff and so on) I never really saw the point of expecting large-scale resolution, because it never struck me as solidly established as real to begin with; an awful lot comes from Calliope speculating, in ways that feel like friendly ribbing of the theory-crafting side of the fandom, and Aranea, and both of them love telling stories that seem to make sense of things but neither of them are necessarily reliable narrators, in terms of getting carried away with enthusiasm and not necessarily being great at fact-checking.
Plotwise, the scales on which Act 7 leaves things open to drawing one's own conclusions fits with the thematic direction of everything since Game Over, at least; new versions of characters post-retcon, the sprites-squared and what Davepeta had to say to Jade about whole selves across multiple variants, and one could argue that that's in a through line with Dave and Dirk and Karkat and Jade's various multi- and alt-self issues all the way back. Free of the narrative, they get to become all those alternates now.
There are things I had been kind of hoping to see and didn't; I was really wishing the Mituna Method would pan out because every other A1 troll has had their plot relevance (except Cronus, who does not deserve any, and maybe Kankri). Also, I'd like some closer handle on why exactly Terezi isn't in the new universe visions; I could buy either "stayed to look for Vriska" or "the new universe is explicitly rejecting characters with a history of proactive multiple murder". But on the whole, I found Act 7 extremely satisfying. I particularly liked getting the views of the new universe and the happy ending and then cutting back to opening the door, because a simple happy ending, however satisfying, would have locked these characters into one particular fate, and ending on that moment gives us something far rarer (and hard as hell to write); a hopeful ending of infinite potential.
On a meta-level, I am perhaps uncharitably amused that, after so much criticism of Act 6 for having more and more new elements and suggestions that Andrew might have lost control of his story, there now seems to be a wave of disappointment aimed at him delivering a nice tight ending to the core of what his story is about without focusing much on all those new elements. I am also not quite seeing how the notion that there might be new information to come in an epilogue/Hiveswap/Homestuck 2.0/The Rapture/whatever is in some way disappointing in ways that that same information would not be if it were nominally contained in Homestuck.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 13, 2016 20:15:17 GMT
I don't know about it. I just. Don't. Know.
Half of me wants to scream and yell at everyone who's happy with the ending for reasons. I just hate the idea of "going along to get along", and I feel like some people can't be critical of Act 7 because they don't want to disrupt their idea of the Homestuck as the perfect story. It could be me though. I don't want to hear anyone but the author tell me it's really over. That's the only way I can accept it mentally.
But...another half of me kind of gets it. I mean, we've been clamoring on and on in the past for this thing to be finished, right? And now it is! Finally! Everyone (important) is happy. Conflicts seem to be resolved. The last dialogue in the story was Dave asking Dirk why they were so awesome. And he just answered that it was the best question anyone's ever asked. And assuming Paradox Space and LE are actually destroyed, the cycle is broken.
And maybe, if I read it again, things will fall into place in a better way. Maybe after I read it again, I'll come back and say, "Oh, now I get it. That makes sense."
Whatever. I'll still refuse to declare anything is over until I see the epilouge, and Huss tells us "Yes. I shit you not. It really is the end." and then nothing happens for a year or two, and THEN I'll say it was done. But for now, I'll just keep waiting, I guess.
I just realized something though. I used to hate Vriska for the bad things she did and wanted her to be punished in some way. But assuming that all of reality outside of Universe...C? is destroyed, I got my wish. She's gone forever just like LE and the others.
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Post by Blaperile on Apr 13, 2016 20:28:13 GMT
So, what I'm getting from this tread is the upcoming end of the comic had everyone excited and happy and sad and worried and preparing for the best and preparing for the worst, which is understandable, but in the end this was an amazing journey we took wth Andrew and each other and no matter what the end, Homestuck will have left a impact on all of us, and we can know we did it all together. N'aww It would have been nice to see John, Rose, Dave, and Jade hanging out together at least once in the comic. We saw them on the lilypad platform. So.... now that it's all over. Favorite parts? Acts 1 - 4 were the best for me. [S] Act 7. This gorgeous animation together with this epic coming to a close and yet remaining unended, cementing once and for all that Homestuck will always be a part of me... definitely first place for me, by far. This goes way, way above Cascade, [S] GAME OVER or [S] Terezi: Remem8er or [S] Caliborn: Enter for me.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 13, 2016 20:34:32 GMT
I'd have to say my favorite moment in the whole comic, ever, was when Tavros fought LE. I dunno. It just really spoke to me. He always the weakest and wimpiest, but he's also my patron troll, and I feel like a wimp too, so I hated seeing him suffer. But he got to go out fighting the final boss, doing his damndest. The ultimate act of bravery/silliness. I think that moment will always be special for me.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 13, 2016 20:36:54 GMT
My favorite part is the end of A5A2 hands down. The Doc Scratch intermission was Hussie's masterpiece. I cried when Vriska died.
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 13, 2016 20:39:06 GMT
My favorite Part was all of the S pages, all of them.
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researcherwisemon
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Post by researcherwisemon on Apr 13, 2016 20:41:58 GMT
In the #413_It_all_ends memo on pesterchum, I came to a realization.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 13, 2016 20:44:51 GMT
On a meta-level, I am perhaps uncharitably amused that, after so much criticism of Act 6 for having more and more new elements and suggestions that Andrew might have lost control of his story, there now seems to be a wave of disappointment aimed at him delivering a nice tight ending to the core of what his story is about without focusing much on all those new elements. I am also not quite seeing how the notion that there might be new information to come in an epilogue/Hiveswap/Homestuck 2.0/The Rapture/whatever is in some way disappointing in ways that that same information would not be if it were nominally contained in Homestuck. The worry was that he was introducing so many plot threads towards the end of the story, and he might not have been able to wrap anything up. The criticism now is that the fear came true. Almost nothing was wrapped up. I suppose you can see it as Hussie leaving us with "infinite potential" of possibilities, but that's lazy and simply bad storytelling on his part. Anyone can decide to end a story prematurely and say they're leaving the ending up to the readers. It doesn't require skilled writing, only a lack of writing. What I have always loved about Homestuck is that it's a puzzle. I loved seeing the pieces come together, or inferring how to fit them together. But this ending leaves us with too many critical pieces that simply do not fit, or are missing altogether. I see people complaining about things like, "what happened to Sollux?" or "did Davekat end up being canon?", but those are pretty clearly minor things and I don't mind that they were neglected. What I mind is that the main plotline of Homestuck was just neglected. He built up an incredibly complex story through Act 6, and then acted almost as if the act never even happened. We don't know why the kids zapped to Caliborn in the Masterpiece, one of the most critical events in Homestuck. Calliope's destruction of the Green Sun doesn't seem to have served any purpose; Lord English did not rely on the Green Sun's power. We don't even know if the main antagonist was defeated. I don't need a fight scene, but I at least need to see what happens to him. And even if he is defeated, it's not like the protagonists are free from his influence. Lord English's timeline is not linear, and he can still easily ruin this universe like any other even if he is defeated at some point on his personal timeline. That's why the whole idea of becoming "unstuck in canon" was important; or, at least, why it was expected to be important. I could write pages of more critical plot points that were never explained or resolved. Nothing happened in Act 7 that wasn't pretty much already known. We knew that when the rings were burned, the genesis tadpole would shoot out of the volcano and fertilize Skaia, becoming the Genesis Frog. We knew alt. Calliope would destroy the Green Sun and probably turn it into a black hole, we just didn't know what the purpose was (still don't). We knew Vriska would pull out the juju on Lord English, we just didn't know what it would do (still don't). And most people already figured that Caliborn was going to break the clock in order to make his immortality unconditional. Hussie only answered the questions we already had the answers to. He didn't answer the questions that really mattered. The only reason I'm not complaining about the lack of resolution for the characters is the fact that this is most likely the purpose of the epilogue. I kind of doubt he'll use an epilogue to resolve main plot points, though. Otherwise it wouldn't really be an epilogue. I just realized something though. I used to hate Vriska for the bad things she did and wanted her to be punished in some way. But assuming that all of reality outside of Universe...C? is destroyed, I got my wish. She's gone forever just like LE and the others. If the black hole kept expanding to consume all of reality, it would have expanded to the B2 session and destroyed the genesis frog that everyone is living in. So, presumably, paradox space is still a thing. Which means nobody is actually safe from LE's influence. I feel bad criticizing Act 7 so heavily, because the music and the animation were both beautiful. It's not even that the flash doesn't work as the end of Homestuck. It's that Hussie gave us the end prematurely. This journey has been wonderful the whole way, and Homestuck has been one of the greatest sources of inspiration in the world to me. It's just a shame that Hussie was so set on his vision of Act 7 that he developed several years ago, and wasn't willing to alter it at all based on his new plot developments. The most important part of a story to me is its ending, and I don't think I can call Homestuck the best fictional work ever made anymore, even though I really wish I could. My favorite part is the end of A5A2 hands down. Agreed, definitely.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 13, 2016 20:45:01 GMT
I also came to the realization that alt!Calliope was the Wizard of Oz. Jade, Jane, and smol!Calliope found her at the end of the yellow brick road and she solved all of their problems with a magic wand. The Flash even starts with her appearing behind a curtain, and ends with everyone going "home".
But in the Wizard of Oz, the wizard was actually a fraud. Sooo... ?
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 13, 2016 20:45:37 GMT
Well this is it then. First of all, the animation was lovely best I've seen. Second, I don't think I need to say due to how many people have said it already but yes I was semi-disappointed at the lack of plot points to be mentioned but at the very least I'm just glad that there was a happy ending(Possibly, I think all of the stuff on the new world was the future not just what they thought was going to happen like some people say) and I'm at least glad that not everyone hates the ending. When I saw this thread I could understand the anger but at this point I am somewhat on good terms with the ending.
Also on the subject of favorite part. I'd have to go with almost anything in Act 5 Act 2. Some of my favorite parts, jokes and flashes are in it.
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randomwriter
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Post by randomwriter on Apr 13, 2016 20:58:48 GMT
Guys.
Hussie isn't done.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 13, 2016 21:00:01 GMT
My favorite part is the end of A5A2 hands down. The Doc Scratch intermission was Hussie's masterpiece. I cried when Vriska died. Quoting this. The climax leading up to [S] Cascade, and [S] Cascade itself with all its... well, CASCADE of plot points all falling into place... THAT was storytelling on a whole different level. Above a certain numerical threshold, one could say. This... this is very good art, but nowhere on that level as far as the story is concerned. And nowhere as fulfilling.
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quixoticTokki
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Post by quixoticTokki on Apr 13, 2016 21:06:19 GMT
I second everything you just said.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 13, 2016 21:11:42 GMT
I don't know what I can say that hasn't been already said.
From a technical and artisitc standpoint, Byoutiful(although I think Collide had some silly and poor artistic choices)
The actual content: So a thing we were all expecting happened(the Genesis Frog) and then... yeah, that was really about it. So many unresolved plot points and ideas: Where did the Masterpiece Kids come from? Where did the Final Frog come from? Who put the weapons in the Lily Capsule? What did Remem8er actually accomplish? What was Kurloz' and Damara's role in everything? What was Calliope hoping to achieve with the Green Sun's destruction? Did Vriska, Aradia and Sollux survive all that nonsense? Did Erisolsprite survive the Retcon, what happened to all the sprites? Were the Felt just left tied up to starve to death or whatever? What happens to B1 Jack Noir and and Ms Paint? so on and so on...
And of course the elephant in the room of plot points: Did Lord English even get defeated. Some would say that it doesn't matter, but given that the Kids are trying to live in peace, leaving such an omnicidial monster out there in the hopes that he never manages to find their universe seems pretty stupid.
The few things that were resolved were rather badly prioritized: We had a whole scene to see Aradia watching destruction like she wanted? Cool, glad we had a whole scene dedicated to that one minor 'arc' that didn't need resolving while so many other more important things could have been shown.
And the Jacks: Of all the jacks, why is B1 jack the one to survive? We've been explicitly told that he's inherently more unstable and violent than the others and so is probably the worst one to leave alive, whereas A2 Jack, who was practically already an Ally, until certain idiots started swing at him, gets unceremoniously mowed down with the rest of the Dime-A-Dozen sub-villains.
I'm going to wait for the epilogue before passing any judgement on whether "Homestuck is Dead" and other melodramatic statements, but until proven otherwise, I am not satisfied with the ending. I am pretty sure the epilogue will not contain animation and I can't see how even a 100 page Text Dump could answer all of these questions.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 21:30:21 GMT
In the #413_It_all_ends memo on pesterchum, I came to a realization. I want to scream at everyone who proposes this "fanfiction ending". Fuck that. Fanfics are fanfics. Not the real story. I shouldn't need to read fanfics to figure out what happen. Now I'm left to wonder if the masterpiece was canon or not. What was even the point of sucking the beta kids into the juju if that was never going to appear again, nor anything was leading into that scene?
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 21:33:36 GMT
Question is when. I was expecting a psyche to happen today, or in the next 2 days at most. If not, then it's a pause, and the fandom will just dissolve. Also a pause of months suggests this might be just a treat to the fandom (like more dialogue between characters in the new universe) than an actual plot development. In other words, an actual epilogue. Because what why announcing the end of the comic for April and not doing it? What we need is an ending, not an epilogue. Of course everything I'm saying is what sounds logical. No idea what the Huss is planning.
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Post by Neptz on Apr 13, 2016 21:34:02 GMT
Please remember that Hussie has done the thing where there is a extremely shitty ending but a extremely good epilogue before, with Problem Sleuth We should probably be getting our hopes up for the epilogue. There's a big chance it won't be bad.
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 13, 2016 21:38:25 GMT
Please remember that Hussie has done the thing where there is a extremely shitty ending but a extremely good epilogue before, with Problem Sleuth We should probably be getting our hopes up for the epilogue. There's a big chance it won't be bad. How was Problem Sleuth's ending shitty? The Big Bad was defeated, and all of the open plot points all converged together and resolved to make it happen, that is the ideal ending to any story. The only short coming was the abruptness of the aftermath, but that's what the Epilogue is for, that their whole purpose. But here in Homestuck, the Big Bad was not defeated, and there are a buttload of crucial plot points and threads still unresolved. Solving them in an epilogue is not what epilogues are for.
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Post by Neptz on Apr 13, 2016 21:42:18 GMT
Please remember that Hussie has done the thing where there is a extremely shitty ending but a extremely good epilogue before, with Problem Sleuth We should probably be getting our hopes up for the epilogue. There's a big chance it won't be bad. How was Problem Sleuth's ending shitty? The Big Bad was defeated, and all of the open plot points all converged together and resolved to make it happen, that is the ideal ending to any story. The only short coming was the abruptness of the aftermath, but that's what the Epilogue is for, that their whole purpose. But here in Homestuck, the Big Bad was not defeated, and there are a buttload of crucial plot points and threads still unresolved. Solving them in an epilogue is not what epilogues are for. I should have said that the ending was considered shitty, not that I considered it shitty myself. For me it was pretty good, but apparently people didn't like it?
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 13, 2016 21:55:00 GMT
Oh, here's another Act 7 complaint I have that I haven't seen anyone make yet: Caliborn breaking the Clock: Why is that an Act 7 thing?
It wasn't a climax or twist or reveal in any sense. We already knew that Caliborn was unconditionally immortal, and that he had Clockwork Magykks. We already knew that said power involved breaking the game in some way, as Aranea said that such a power was outside YoodlyBuggers jurisdiction. We know roughly when he got the power from Caliborn's masterpiece. Really the only thing all that brought to the table was the exact details of the power's origin. But such 'enlightenment' doesn't do much. It doesn't make any previously unanswered questions come together. It doesn't help us see older events in a new light that makes them make more sense. This scene could've been a part of Caliborn's masterpiece and freed up some time and space in Act 7 for more pressing matters to be resolved and answered.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 21:55:15 GMT
Epilogue is TIDoMS 2.
That's the only way i'll accept it.
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