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Post by sasuke on Apr 15, 2016 5:27:35 GMT
i would advise against trying to fill the retcon plot holes. its a downward spiral that will only end up creating holes in your own brain.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 15, 2016 5:28:38 GMT
The Retcon was confined to the session. Since he got zapped just outside of it, he wasn't actually affected. That doesn't work. He had to be created in the session itself because Prospit is destroyed and Jane and Jake are God Tier, and he is the one that makes both those things happen, and those are before he's zapped away. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure John's retcons are exempt from paradoxes like that. |
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Post by silavor on Apr 15, 2016 5:38:46 GMT
The Retcon was confined to the session. Since he got zapped just outside of it, he wasn't actually affected. That doesn't work. He had to be created in the session itself because Prospit is destroyed and Jane and Jake are God Tier, and he is the one that makes both those things happen, and those are before he's zapped away. Not to mention the fact that Dirk and Bec Noir both made it into the session well before John started retconning. We were led to believe that the Becs, Slick, Union Jack, and Dirk were all roughly equal in their distance from the session, and would all arrive at roughly the same time. There's no logical reason why Slick and Union Jack would have somehow still been completely outside the session before John zapped away |
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 15, 2016 5:38:57 GMT
That doesn't work. He had to be created in the session itself because Prospit is destroyed and Jane and Jake are God Tier, and he is the one that makes both those things happen, and those are before he's zapped away. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure John's retcons are exempt from paradoxes like that. Not really. If John's Retcon's kept the B2 Session as it was before he turned up, then all of Vriska's interference would've been undone. Plus, a paradox occurs when there's some sort of conflict of causality, and the Retcons don't create arbitrary paradoxes for shits and giggles. The only reason Union Jack would remain around as a Paradox would be if his absence created an even bigger paradox, which isn't the case since the only meaningful thing he did was God Tier Jake and Jane, which could've easily been achieved through other means, such as the Dronegorg piloted by either a Scheming Serket, or a Dumbass Drool. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 5:44:38 GMT
The Retcon was confined to the session. Since he got zapped just outside of it, he wasn't actually affected. Billiards Slick addresses this one. We know that there was a huge ring around the Green Sun made from the cracks in PS that English made, and that Alt Calliope's actions created a black hole and destroyed at least the area inside the ring. It's not confirmed, but we could assume that the giant hole left in Paradox space is just confined to this area. The Furthest Ring is described as area with unlimited/undefined dimensions, but this area at least could be very finite, since the structures composing it (the cracks and the sun) have some quantifiable size/mass. But that's my point. We don't know. It could just be confined to that one area...or not. We don't know, but I assume that the Green Sun's vast power capacity can't be accessed anymore. But since every character that would be able to utilize it is de-powered/gone/out of paradox space, it may be irrelevant now. Jade said to think of it like our solar system, but instead of a sun and planets it's the Green Sun and Universes. Now imagine our sun just disappeared one day. Even putting aside the fact that our planet needs its light and heat, we and all of our planetary neighbors are thrown out of orbit because theres nothing for us to orbit around anymore. I could imagine that would cause a problem. And that's without getting into whether the black hole apparently created by the Green's Sun's destruction might be able to cause some problems. The fact is, what don't know what could happen, so anything could. Another point about this: what was the point of destroying the Green Sun? Why did Echidna apparently ask this of Muse!Calliope? There wasn't much reason for anybody to do it at this point in the story the way there was a reason for Dave and Rose to try to destroy it back when Bec Noir was still running around unchecked. You could've easily cut those parts out of Act 7 and we wouldn't have lost anything but some really cool visuals. Roxy was confirmed to be able to create a matriorb. That would restart the troll race. As for the humans, well, assuming biology can take an artistic license, they can repopulate naturally...or use ectobiology in some manner. In addition, since we know that newly created universes can spawn new life, as seen by Universe B, new humans and other life must have been created as well. We know theoretically this can happen, but in that flash forward all we saw were carapacians and consorts. No other humans or trolls. So whether or not it does happen is left up in the air. John's retcon that occurred in B2 wouldn't have affected Caliborn. Assuming his zapping created a new timeline, the Caliborn that gets put in Lil Cal after the Masterpiece would become LE, and assuming the Pre-retcon, non Aranea timeline birthed a Universe (presumably under Condy's supervision), the cherubs would have been born in this universe. We see Caliborn talking to Jake while Erisolsprite is his sprite. So we sort of have proof that John's retcon shenanigans did affect him. |
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soeroah
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Post by soeroah on Apr 15, 2016 6:14:46 GMT
I quite like the interpretation that the Juju essentially allowed the Lilypad heroes to escape the comic's boundaries while trapping Lord English in a story that was about to end. Fits the meta nicely, though I still think Lord English still gets punted into the black hole and restrained there for eternity (and I highly doubt the black hole devoured all of Paradox Space, the Furthest Ring is way bigger than a sun the mass of two universes.
Plus the idea of trapping the Kids in Homestuck being the Juju's purpose fits in with something I said a few months back, where I wondered if John gaining Retcon powers was actually just another trap from Lord English meant to strengthen his stranglehold on the Alpha Timeline, since it turned out Retcons were part of a greater Alpha Timeline all along.
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 15, 2016 6:15:06 GMT
(I can't believe I was on team ending-haters yesterday and I've apparently gone and changed sides)
Oh well, hopefully the epilouge will answer some questions. If it doesn't I'll probably get pissed again and just give up.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 15, 2016 6:23:14 GMT
That doesn't work. He had to be created in the session itself because Prospit is destroyed and Jane and Jake are God Tier, and he is the one that makes both those things happen, and those are before he's zapped away. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure John's retcons are exempt from paradoxes like that. You're a bit confused, the reason it avoids paradoxes is because it changes continuity. Yes he could have erased the sequence of events that led to Union Jack, but then Jane and Jake would not be God Tier and Prospit would not be destroyed. Although I think that Hussie may have forgotten about this too, since he also doesn't explain how Dave has Caledfwlch. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 6:29:35 GMT
I think the thing I don't like about how everyone's saying it's up to us to interpret the ending how we want to is Homestuck never worked like that up until the ending. We've definitely had some symbolism we could analyze (Homestuck as a growing up story, the gnostic themes, etc.) but it was never like one of those surreal movies or animes where you were never quite sure what was literally going on and what was just in someone's head. The closest we came were some trippy moments with the dreambubbles when they first became a thing but other than that...if it had always been like this, where it set up all these mysteries just to not address them, I could see it. But as it stands, it's really incongruent with the rest of the comic.
Oh, and I remembered another loose or semi-loose thread. The Skaian clouds. They've been a framing device since the retcon, but we haven't seen who was watching them. The most likely candidate is one of the Calliopes, but that wouldn't be a surprise....so why not show that? In fact, why even show the clouds at all if you're not going to do anything with them?
Also, I don't know if this is a loose end or a mistake but...how did Muse!Calliope get out of her bubble to destroy the Green Sun? Or did she not? What was the deal with that?
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 15, 2016 6:33:18 GMT
All these Interpretations of the Ending full of satisfactory answers and appropriate symbolism are all fine and dandy. But does it not concern you that we need such hugely speculative and unsubstantiated guesses to actually call it an ending? Can it be called an ending if you then have to sit down and write a bunch of extra pages yourself? It'd be like if you got an IKEA flat pack and called it a chair even though it is not only disassembled, but it's missing the instruction manual, and the pieces are generic enough that you can make a variety other other furniture pieces with it
EDIT: Semi-Ninja'd by alleywayCreeper
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soeroah
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Post by soeroah on Apr 15, 2016 7:01:53 GMT
Concern me? Nah.
Sure, it would have been nice to have another Cascade and get everything tied up neatly, probably even would have preferred that, but Homestuck's always been partly the story and partly the fandom theories and predictions for me. Regardless of my feeling the ending could've been better if done the more predictable way, I'm satisfied with the fandom being able to continue theorising and discussing the comic beyond "wow that was great" or "wow that sucked".
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Post by Billiards Slick on Apr 15, 2016 7:02:49 GMT
Oh, and I remembered another loose or semi-loose thread. The Skaian clouds. They've been a framing device since the retcon, but we haven't seen who was watching them. The most likely candidate is one of the Calliopes, but that wouldn't be a surprise....so why not show that? In fact, why even show the clouds at all if you're not going to do anything with them? I think the transition in Collide from the cloud to Jane's fork was the payoff for this. So I guess no one was watching it, it was just some random cloun...Which, I have to say I found to be pretty weak. I'd pretty much forgotten about it, but man, that's one for the "things you thought would be more important" thread. I don't really see what the point of it as a framing device was if all it led to was, well...nothing? |
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partymember57
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 15, 2016 7:03:45 GMT
I think the only other things in Homestuck that has been this polarizing were Vriska and the Retcon. And I hated both those things, but I made peace with them.
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soeroah
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Post by soeroah on Apr 15, 2016 7:08:28 GMT
Not sure why every cloud in the comic had to have been 'watched' by someone. They were framing devices for the reader, using an in-universe concept to attach different scenes together.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 15, 2016 7:10:44 GMT
I think the only other things in Homestuck that has been this polarizing were Vriska and the Retcon. And I hated both those things, but I made peace with them. If it turns out that this was a lead-in to the Trickster Mario moral, then it would literally parallel the Trickster arc, which was perhaps the only other part of the comic that was so universally reviled. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 7:16:20 GMT
Not sure why every cloud in the comic had to have been 'watched' by someone. They were framing devices for the reader, using an in-universe concept to attach different scenes together. They're Skaian clouds. That's pretty much all they're there for and the only reason the comic has them. |
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 15, 2016 7:21:03 GMT
Not sure why every cloud in the comic had to have been 'watched' by someone. They were framing devices for the reader, using an in-universe concept to attach different scenes together. They're Skaian clouds. That's pretty much all they're there for and the only reason the comic has them. Moreover, Hussie has kind of sucked at natural transitions for a while now when it used to be one of the hallmarks of the comic, so if it really WAS only intended as a device to facilitate transitions, I wish he had used it more often LOL. But then it wouldn't even really be a "natural" transition, it would just be an artificial device like the little squares that he also used in A6A6I5. |
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Post by obsidalicious on Apr 15, 2016 7:27:44 GMT
I think the only other things in Homestuck that has been this polarizing were Vriska and the Retcon. And I hated both those things, but I made peace with them. Speaking of which; Kudos to you lot for having these Forums for this long and not needing a Vriska Quarantine Thread. |
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soeroah
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Post by soeroah on Apr 15, 2016 7:35:31 GMT
Not sure why every cloud in the comic had to have been 'watched' by someone. They were framing devices for the reader, using an in-universe concept to attach different scenes together. They're Skaian clouds. That's pretty much all they're there for and the only reason the comic has them. Alright, so why not some random Prospitian? We know the Propsitians base their mythologies around what they see in the Skaian clouds. Not everything shown in them has to be for a player's benefit. I always saw the clouds as more of a reflection of history than something specifically meant to guide anyone, though they certainly serve that purpose. It feels more to me like an "if a tree falls in the woods" situation. There doesn't have to be an observer for the clouds to keep doing their thing. And even if there did, the Reader counts as much as any in-universe being, IMO. The clouds to me were always something that happened to guide characters when necessary, but were just a natural thing than happens in Skaia, that served as a convenient way to connect different scenes together when telling the story. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 8:04:37 GMT
They're Skaian clouds. That's pretty much all they're there for and the only reason the comic has them. Alright, so why not some random Prospitian? We know the Propsitians base their mythologies around what they see in the Skaian clouds. Not everything shown in them has to be for a player's benefit. Seems odd to give so much emphasis on the visions of a Prospitan ( or of a player) we're never going to meet. Unless the person who saw those clouds was going to become important, there really wasn't any reason to use them as a framing device. Why not just show us what's going on without them? The only thing that happens related to them that even comes close to being a payoff is that whole thing with Jane's fork, but that could have easily been changed so that the clouds weren't a factor. Just lose the vision of the dreambubbles in the cloud (which didn't seem to add anything to the flash or the story at large anyway) and start the shot on Skaia itself, than zoom out so we see it's Jane's fork and that she's been incapacitated. As it stands, the clouds add nothing to the story, and so serve no purpose. I always saw the clouds as more of a reflection of history than something specifically meant to guide anyone, though they certainly serve that purpose. It feels more to me like an "if a tree falls in the woods" situation. There doesn't have to be an observer for the clouds to keep doing their thing. And even if there did, the Reader counts as much as any in-universe being, IMO. They never had any other reason to be. They are there to be seen, both in a meta sense and in-story. If Skaia was sentient, and the story established that it liked making clouds with pictures in them, that would be silly, but it would give a reason for the clouds' existence other than for characters and readers to see them. But as it stands... |
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Post by 2create on Apr 15, 2016 8:36:32 GMT
I'm disappointed. I'm not mad, just a little sad, and if this is it, then I have to thank the big man for taking us on this ride, because it's been a wonderful one. That doesn't change the fact that I found S Act 7 very unfulfilling. I also came to the realization that alt!Calliope was the Wizard of Oz. Jade, Jane, and smol!Calliope found her at the end of the yellow brick road and she solved all of their problems with a magic wand. The Flash even starts with her appearing behind a curtain, and ends with everyone going "home". But in the Wizard of Oz, the wizard was actually a fraud. Sooo... ? I like this theory a lot. Mind, I haven't watched the Wizard of Oz. I don't know anything about it, but this strikes my fancy, what with alt!Calliope telling Jade to wake up, which causes her to be... of no consequence whatsoever? She really did absolutely nothing in Collide. So what reason would Calliope have to wake her up? Here's my theory: Calliope didn't want Jade to interfere with what she was doing. Now I'm not saying that Calliope didn't destroy Lord English. In all likelihood, she did. But there may have been an ulterior motive, in addition to the fact that alt!Calliope has been very distant from everything and everyone. I can definitely see some personal gain for her being involved. If this is not the case, however, I tend to agree with Mageddondreams. Andrew Hussie is fundamentally and unchangeably paramount to Homestuck's existence. If he ceased to exist inside the dream bubbles, then it could well be the end, as he has always been the one canonically telling the story. Finally, Act 7 is really, deeply and unsettlingly ominous with the final few moments focusing on Caliborn's ascension. It leaves a "Something is about to go wrong" feeling in my gut. Not to mention that John reaching for the knob is eerily similar to how Karkat once did the same, and, well, we all know how that ended up. Unless that is what the ending is supposed to be about? Alt!Calliope becomes a black hole while Vriska knocks Lord English into said hole, fusing and shackling the two into a single unified 'entity' crushed into a singularity. Calliope and LE were once one, and now they are one again? To what end I am not sure, but it is perhaps one of the more ironic ends LE could have met. Definitely like. Now imagine our sun just disappeared one day. Even putting aside the fact that our planet needs its light and heat, we and all of our planetary neighbors are thrown out of orbit because theres nothing for us to orbit around anymore. I could imagine that would cause a problem. And that's without getting into whether the black hole apparently created by the Green's Sun's destruction might be able to cause some problems. Actually, I know enough of physics to tell you what's going to happen: Nothing. If the Green Sun were to suddenly disappear, yes, that would cause a problem. The Green Sun's multiverse would no longer have a centre of mass to orbit around. However, the black hole solves this problem by being a centre of mass itself. In fact, it is nothing more than a singularity consisting of the Green Sun, as well as a little bit of the mass already present in the system. Literally nothing would change except for the fact that nothing can leave a black hole, and therefore the influence of the Green Sun would fizzle away, and I dare say, from what we've seen so far, it's something the universes scarcely need to operate. |
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soeroah
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Post by soeroah on Apr 15, 2016 8:46:21 GMT
Alright, so why not some random Prospitian? We know the Propsitians base their mythologies around what they see in the Skaian clouds. Not everything shown in them has to be for a player's benefit. Seems odd to give so much emphasis on the visions of a Prospitan ( or of a player) we're never going to meet. Unless the person who saw those clouds was going to become important, there really wasn't any reason to use them as a framing device. Why not just show us what's going on without them? The only thing that happens related to them that even comes close to being a payoff is that whole thing with Jane's fork, but that could have easily been changed so that the clouds weren't a factor. Just lose the vision of the dreambubbles in the cloud (which didn't seem to add anything to the flash or the story at large anyway) and start the shot on Skaia itself, than zoom out so we see it's Jane's fork and that she's been incapacitated. As it stands, the clouds add nothing to the story, and so serve no purpose. I always saw the clouds as more of a reflection of history than something specifically meant to guide anyone, though they certainly serve that purpose. It feels more to me like an "if a tree falls in the woods" situation. There doesn't have to be an observer for the clouds to keep doing their thing. And even if there did, the Reader counts as much as any in-universe being, IMO. They never had any other reason to be. They are there to be seen, both in a meta sense and in-story. If Skaia was sentient, and the story established that it liked making clouds with pictures in them, that would be silly, but it would give a reason for the clouds' existence other than for characters and readers to see them. But as it stands... The clouds served the purpose of being framing devices from a meta-perspective, and of setting up the game's mythologies and assisting early Prospit-wakers in learning about the game and fulfilling time loops ahead of time. A lot of the earlier time loops rely on knowledge gained from Skaia's clouds. They're a game mechanic and apparently part of the nature of Skaia, they just double as a cool thematic framing device for the reader, similar to how the whole shipping grid and Echelladder things worked surprisingly well as Kickstarter terminology and stand-ins. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 9:13:45 GMT
Now imagine our sun just disappeared one day. Even putting aside the fact that our planet needs its light and heat, we and all of our planetary neighbors are thrown out of orbit because theres nothing for us to orbit around anymore. I could imagine that would cause a problem. And that's without getting into whether the black hole apparently created by the Green's Sun's destruction might be able to cause some problems. Actually, I know enough of physics to tell you what's going to happen: Nothing. If the Green Sun were to suddenly disappear, yes, that would cause a problem. The Green Sun's multiverse would no longer have a centre of mass to orbit around. However, the black hole solves this problem by being a centre of mass itself. In fact, it is nothing more than a singularity consisting of the Green Sun, as well as a little bit of the mass already present in the system. Literally nothing would change except for the fact that nothing can leave a black hole, and therefore the influence of the Green Sun would fizzle away, and I dare say, from what we've seen so far, it's something the universes scarcely need to operate. Well I mean, yeah. But Paradox Space doesn't play by our rules. Our sun doesn't power omnipotent Guardians the way the Green Sun does, and while black holes in real life will take a long, long time to suck anything into them....we can't be sure this one will work that way. And that's without getting into the potential paradoxes caused by the Sun's destruction. The clouds served the purpose of being framing devices from a meta-perspective, and of setting up the game's mythologies and assisting early Prospit-wakers in learning about the game and fulfilling time loops ahead of time. A lot of the earlier time loops rely on knowledge gained from Skaia's clouds. They're a game mechanic and apparently part of the nature of Skaia, they just double as a cool thematic framing device for the reader, similar to how the whole shipping grid and Echelladder things worked surprisingly well as Kickstarter terminology and stand-ins. The clouds serve no purpose at this point in the story as framing devices. I didn't argue they held no purpose earlier; and in fact it's that earlier relevance that paints their recent irrelevance in such striking relief. I also came to the realization that alt!Calliope was the Wizard of Oz. Jade, Jane, and smol!Calliope found her at the end of the yellow brick road and she solved all of their problems with a magic wand. The Flash even starts with her appearing behind a curtain, and ends with everyone going "home". But in the Wizard of Oz, the wizard was actually a fraud. Sooo... ? In the Wizard of Oz there was a seemingly all powerful green fraud and a wicked, actually powerful green woman. Taking that and the multiple allusions to the Wizard of Oz we've seen in Homestuck into account...it gives you something to think about. |
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Post by damson on Apr 15, 2016 10:32:23 GMT
Oh my god. There WAS a final twist. There's a reason that everyone's been complaining about the insufficient storytelling of Act 7; we've been assuming this whole time that we were reading a story. But in fact we were not! WE'VE BEEN PLAYING A GAME THE WHOLE TIME. Act 7 was just the final, beautiful cut scene, and it is up to us to fit those last pieces into the whole puzzle. The evidence is here, in the last CHRONOLOGICAL text of the entire story (as the Masterpiece takes place after Dirk's line), spoken by Hussiborn himself:
I WANT TO GET TO TELL YOU THAT I DID WHAT I WANTED TO DO. SO IF YOU REMEMBER JUST ONE THING I SAY, OF SO MANY GREAT THINGS SAID BY ME, THEN PLEASE REMEMBER THIS.
I WANTED TO PLAY A GAME.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 15, 2016 11:03:38 GMT
Oh my god. There WAS a final twist. There's a reason that everyone's been complaining about the insufficient storytelling of Act 7; we've been assuming this whole time that we were reading a story. But in fact we were not! WE'VE BEEN PLAYING A GAME THE WHOLE TIME. Act 7 was just the final, beautiful cut scene, and it is up to us to fit those last pieces into the whole puzzle. The evidence is here, in the last CHRONOLOGICAL text of the entire story (as the Masterpiece takes place after Dirk's line), spoken by Hussiborn himself: I WANT TO GET TO TELL YOU THAT I DID WHAT I WANTED TO DO. SO IF YOU REMEMBER JUST ONE THING I SAY, OF SO MANY GREAT THINGS SAID BY ME, THEN PLEASE REMEMBER THIS. I WANTED TO PLAY A GAME. Nah ;) |
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