|
|
Post by techniclepanther on Apr 16, 2016 14:05:14 GMT
I don't know why you people are so obsessed with the Shyamalan twists.
|
|
|
|
Post by mageddondreams on Apr 16, 2016 14:30:48 GMT
Eh. That's a matter of personal preference and opinion. Vriska was my second favourite character and I wanted her to get that redemption arc, because I didn't want everything she said to John to be a lie. I read over it again yesterday, and she actually admitted that she wanted to be the best at everything and be hero, and wanted to change that. And she said she 'used to' wanted to be the best, implying that she went out of that phase. So I find it weird how she decided to still want to be the best. --- I suspect I'm in a somewhat unusual position among HS fandom in having been emotionally close to real people who were extremely narcissistic in ways that were actively dangerous to people around them. I hope so, at any rate; that's certainly not an experience I would wish on anyone. But it does inform my great appreciation for how realistic Hussie is in depicting Vriska - in particular, in Vriska, in those moments, appearing to convince herself that she wants to change when she is not actually going to change without further incentive - such as does actually happen to GO!Vriska. I do not at all believe that's intentional deception, but as a particular form of self-deception that will never be developed, that is very precisely observed and true to life, and I remain glad Hussie did not go for a feel-good ending on that in ways that were less realistic. An inspirational feel-good story about overcoming problem X is all well and good, but I do think that if you intend to do that respectfully it has to ring true to people with real-world experience of problem X. |
|
|
|
Post by mageddondreams on Apr 16, 2016 14:36:11 GMT
No. What point are you trying to make here ? The Retcon very literally just magicked away many of the character's personal problems without satisfactory resolution. --- I disagree. It showed us that set of iterations of those characters coming to an end in the mess that was Game Over, and then it went back and showed us different versions doing better. --- As I said earlier, many people read Homestuck for the characters and their interactions. Setting up what would've been some very interesting conversations and then not having them is disappointing, regardless of whatever point or principle Hussie was trying to portray. --- At this point, I suspect there's nothing more I can do but agree to disagree on that one. Why is that the lesson though? Why should we not expect basic story telling conventions? These conventions exist for a reason. --- I would argue that a major point of the story is to get the readers to consider why they believe those storytelling conventions exist, why they find them satisfying, and whether that is a good thing. Not necessarily to push a specific answer to those questions. Just to refuse unthinking acceptance of the standard answers that readers may have previously been taking for granted. |
|
Fish
Rungjumpin' Ragamuffin
mostly on discord
Posts: 285
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by Fish on Apr 16, 2016 15:23:47 GMT
Then what type of story is it? A Story about Growing Up? It's pretty crappy on that front too, since a large deal of character problems were just magicked away with no consequences, while a variety of other personal problems still exist and were never addressed. Maybe it's a story about Creating a Universe and Living Happily Ever After? Well, they left the Big Bad alive, as far as we saw, so the "Happily Ever After with no Complications" is very questionable. Was the story always about the mysteries and puzzles it presents? Well, so many of them are not only unanswered, but are fully unanswerable with the supplied information, so people trying to solve them aren't going to get very far. Is Homestuck going to make more sense anytime in the near future? The plot is super cool, i just feel like it’s a friggen puzzle sometimes. Also, will ending be happy, sad, bittersweet, or OH GOD I’VE BEEN CRYING FOR MONTHS AND IT WONT STOP AAAHHH A: The thing is, Homestuck is both a story and a puzzle, by design and by definition. If asked to define it, “a story that’s also a puzzle” is as close to true as any answer I’d give. But the stuff I'm complaining about isn't so much things with a known origin, but no use(although there are some of those), but more to do with the stuff that had a purpose, but it's origin/cause was not explained e.g. the Final Frog etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that leaving those open is more egregious than minor chekov guns. It'd be like if in Lord of the Rings, Aragorn just turned up with the Army of the Dead with no explanation, promised to explain later, then the story ended, and we're just left to sit there and say "Okay, I guess it's open ended and up to us to explain a major plot event." This is pretty ironic, because yesterday on Skype when I was complaining about people not understanding the frog I also made an LOTR analogy. "sure its reason for sendification was not Explained but that's more on the order of not knowing who the fuck tom bombadil was in lotr." Did we need to know why Bombadil originated to understand that he was powerful, and to appreciate his kindness to the hobbits? No, because in the grand scheme of the story he was a pretty minor player. The frog had already been "bought" by Jade's bargain, and while its origin was unclear and potentially dangerous, it's not the point of the story. [snop] Every time I look at the latest events that has happened in the comic, all I see is the comic going 'fuck it'. This isn't the Homestuck I know. It's people over at tumblr taking over the narrative. [snap] David Karp taking over the narrative would indeed be disastrous. However, I've argued that these recent updates have been more carefully planned than any previous. Andrew Hussie knew he couldn't put in everything, so he included enough to make an ending that would be emotionally satisfying* but thought-provoking. Incredibly thought-provoking, as is apparent on this forum. *Perhaps not for those who believed the kids' end goal was to defeat Lord English, which seems to be a majority here. But the comic has been telling us they wouldn't fight him for something like three years. It's certainly satisfying to the larger fanbase (see tumblr). |
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Apr 16, 2016 16:26:33 GMT
sigh. i keep seeing act 7 pop up in recommended videos on youtube and it bothers me. i watched it ~1.5 times and honestly dont really wana watch it ever again. the epilogue probably wont even wrap up the masterpiece/LE final battle, and im not interested in another mega hiatus, especially after we were told this was the 'conclusion' so many times. i honestly believe hussie left off right before the final confrontation in order to piss people off, either cuz he hated the fandom, just thought it would be 'funny' or to 'teach us a lesson'. well i guess i learned mine. I dunno, I think to some extent you're kind of creating your own hell here, by insisting the ending sucks so much and looking for justification for that, rather than pursuing other angles. If you ask me. Which you didn't. Sorry. But then who else does Doc Scratch's Clock function for? As far as we know, it was left on its side, which would ensure Just Death for all, yet all the other God Tier deaths we've seen are either Heroic, influenced by Aranea, or Aranea herself. The clock was fixed almost immediately by Scratch. Anyway, this is a bit of a headcanon, but I like to think he uses it more as a window into seeing who is being revived (or not) and when, without influencing the outcome (Slick's actions being more of a coincidence, as well as muddying the certainty of it). Not that I don't agree there is some appropriateness for Scratch and English to own Vriska's clock specifically, but it's also appropriate that Scratch likes to observe, rather than influence directly. Plus, like I said, I just enjoy the continuity of Caliborn having one clock, then repurposing it later. (And now that I think about it, it also makes sense that he would want to hang onto the instrument of his mortality, to make sure nobody fixes it and binds his life to it once more.) It also does more than be a god tier clock, since it links to his virus box outside the B2 session. Oh, I don't know. In case you wanted to, I guess, watch a video you've seen, AGAIN. Or something. Not that that ever happens.  I saw this on tumblr earlier, and I hate to come off sounding like this, but I did see the sentiment shared around. I also thought of some of these similar threads, that the weapon is "Homestuck" itself in some vague way, and also that English's invincibility drew from the same pool that is used in other ways, such as by the frog. On the other hand, I didn't know how to put it all together the way you did, and I sure didn't figure out all the peculiarities about the meta nature of the ending. Oh, and about English being the one stuck in canon in the end. The funny thing is, in a way Lord English becomes a less effectual villain upon his rise to power. Doc Scratch manipulates his pawns perfectly, is the first to hijack the narrative for his own amusement and to demonstrate his control over meta, and ultimately unleashes a terror upon the story, as he intended. The only thing that seemed capable of actually stopping him, AH, came too little too late. As Caliborn rises in power, he finds himself immune to story suggestions, talks with and gets advice from the author, and eventually takes control of the narrative himself, telling his own story largely on his own terms (while interfering with the intermissions created to undermine him), before stepping down voluntarily. With his reign as the ultimate meta villain completed, he proceeds to harness ultimate power, but ironically makes him less of a meta presence. His power becomes defined solely within canon boundaries. As English, he kills the author, but this has no effect on the story, and from his perspective is already fated to happen. He creates cracks in the void and destroys the afterlife, something he was also known to do for a long time already (hinted at since act 4), and stays there until the end of the story, when he reveals himself once more to face his challengers, yet another thing already anticipated from him. As a meta villain, he reaches his peak just before he finishes his own sburb session. Once he becomes invincible, he becomes a regular villain, even if a powerful and influential one. Which I don't think makes him a bad villain! Of course I still think he's awesome. But in a way I think this is a sort of downfall for him personally. HS Book 3 commentary talks about the nature of meta villains when it introduces Jack Noir, pointing out how he has hints of meta about him (such as his commands shown being written by AH's hands), but all this falls away when it's revealed his ambitions lie solely within the bounds of canon, and other more meta villains start to take the reigns and become more prominent, specifically in the form of Doc Scratch. People can't handle this ending because of it's content. A bunch of other stuff coming out at the same time wouldn't have changed that. The flash is beautiful, but there aren't any big, shocking surprises. The game coming out only would have added to it if it had some extra content critical to understanding the story, and even then that would have been a crappy thing to do because you'd basically be asking your long time readers to buy a game to find out what happens in the main story. I mean, it sounds to me like you think whatever the rapture was going to be would be one really specific thing with a very particular effect on people, and I'm trying to suggest it could be a little more broad than that?? But whatever. I think the thing I don't like about how everyone's saying it's up to us to interpret the ending how we want to is Homestuck never worked like that up until the ending. We've definitely had some symbolism we could analyze (Homestuck as a growing up story, the gnostic themes, etc.) but it was never like one of those surreal movies or animes where you were never quite sure what was literally going on and what was just in someone's head. The closest we came were some trippy moments with the dreambubbles when they first became a thing but other than that...if it had always been like this, where it set up all these mysteries just to not address them, I could see it. But as it stands, it's really incongruent with the rest of the comic. Oh, and I remembered another loose or semi-loose thread. The Skaian clouds. They've been a framing device since the retcon, but we haven't seen who was watching them. The most likely candidate is one of the Calliopes, but that wouldn't be a surprise....so why not show that? In fact, why even show the clouds at all if you're not going to do anything with them? Also, I don't know if this is a loose end or a mistake but...how did Muse!Calliope get out of her bubble to destroy the Green Sun? Or did she not? What was the deal with that? If the story NEVER answered any questions, I probably wouldn't like it as much personally. A little open-endedness is fine because it drives your imagination, but at the same time you also have a sort of standard to keep you grounded by all the questions that ARE answered. If the whole story was one big riddle that never gets solved, like a big kind of abstract story, I would just kind of gloss it over. That's a little TOO much mystery for me to sink my teeth into. Like I said in one of my other posts, I look at Homestuck's plot mechanics as a sort of process of graduation. Throughout act 5 we see threads dangling and are invited to theorize how they tie together, but eventually we see what the right answer is, giving us a standard to compare to. For Act 7, we don't get the answer for free. As I interpret it, we have to determine for ourselves what answer makes the most sense, based on the generous library of information we've been provided with. In this case, it's not necessarily the "easy" answer. Sure you could interpret whatever ending you want. But if you've stuck with the story after all this time, you probably want to put some work into it, and make sure it really feels right and makes sense. You get to write the ending, but you also have the responsibility of writing it well. Even if I guess the only authority putting that responsibility is you. Or me. If you wanted to be spoonfed a completely linear ending, then you probably weren't really driven by any of the vaguer, more uncertain plot elements to begin with, like god tier aspects and classes, or the ultimate riddle. And I mean this as a statement on myself as much as anyone else. If you ask me, I think Homestuck is a much weaker story without its elements of mystery and intrigue. You know, the stuff that drove reader imagination so much in the first place, that led to the phenomenon of fantrolls. Oh, and as for the Skaian cloud framing device... Well, what if it's us, the reader? That's just something I kind of made up right now, but it feels fitting given all the meta chatter going on right now. I think the only other things in Homestuck that has been this polarizing were Vriska and the Retcon. And I hated both those things, but I made peace with them. Pretty much. Speaking of thematic intrigue, these are things with no clear right answer and thus are really divisive. Despite what people say about the trickster arc, it's not the same at all. What's wrong and right with it is made pretty clear, and you either like it or you don't. Not really as much room for argument there. Actually, it just now occurred to me how fitting it is that Andrew, who as we've just shown likes to make a habit of making deliberately divisive story decisions, such as Vriska and the retcons, would end the whole story in the same way. Here's anew question I want to propse: Assuming that either the epilogue never comes or that it's really shitty, how do you feel about the comic? Do you hate it now? Love it despite these flaws? Moving forward, what do you think Homestuck will mean to you? It means the same to me as it has for five years since I first got hooked. A really cool interesting story that inspires creativity in you. A focal point for a series of positive life changes for which I'm endlessly thankful. A bit of a trial in its own right that has increased my skills of plot comprehension altogether. I guess there is one thing that will probably change. No longer will it be my biggest obsession, something which occupies all my time. There is theorizing left to do, of course. Maybe when the dust settles in these first few days (boy I should have checked up on this place yesterday and not skipped huh?) I'll be able to approach it more casually? Which honestly I don't mind one bit. After everything, I'm ready to happily close the book on Homestuck (though certainly not permanently, being able to come back to it now and then will be great) and start moving on with my life, seeing what strange new adventures wait for me. It gave us the origin of the cue ball as the clock pendulum, which explains why the cue ball as an alchemical component made something capable of interfering with LE immortality (Dave beheading Lord Jack) and of breaking the unbreakable katana, which otherwise made sense thematically but not mechanically. I suspect this also connects on to the cueball's use as bullet in killing Snowman. It also gave us the origin of Caliborn's particular immortality in literally ingesting the majyks of the clock, which makes sense of why he would be vulnerable to another component of the same clock. Come to think of it, we do now have both the beginning and the end of the unbreakable katana's timeline. Neat. ...You just blew my mind. Holy shit. This makes a surprising amount of sense! Wait holy shit I missed this that's actually brilliant. Headcanon accepted, thank you. Oh dear sweet horrorterrors. Not only did Andrew know what he was doing with the ending, he saw this range of reactions coming from way back and answered them in the damned text.My edits in bold to clarify the epiphany that just jumped out at me: Plot holes do not exist. The concept is a very human one. It is the product of your story writing again. You have come up with expectations about my story about these kids, making emotional demands of it, and in particular, of those in possession of it. Your demands are based on a feeling of entitlement to the facts, which is very childish. You can never know all of the facts. Only I can. And since it's impossible for me to reveal all facts to you, it is my discretion alone that decides which facts will be revealed in the finite time we have. If I do not volunteer information you deem critical to your reading satisfaction, it possibly means that I am a scoundrel, but it does not mean that I am failing to tell the particular story I am trying to tell. Wow, another good point. That quote has occurred to me multiple times before when seeing people's reactions before, guess that was no coincidence.  So what I'm getting from this thread is that you're some kind of genius?  If anything, this open ending has sparked more interest in Homestuck than I’ve had in years. First of all, Homestuck has always been about the journey not the destination. That being said, I’ve adored such an overly complex and heartbreaking story that Homestuck provides its readers. Plenty of well-rated shows and games have open endings as well, and while it's a disappointing ending concerning the nature of the comic, to me it was an ending no less. I'm sure others disagree. In a sense, I feel like this ambiguous ending is like Hussie throwing us “one last plot twist” and its up to us to figure out what exactly happened in Act 7 and to fill up all the remaining holes. I definitely do not hate it now, but the story took an odd turn ever since retcon was a thing. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without fair warning of the ending. Also if one isn't reading Homestuck as in-depth as we are, they wouldn't realize all these missing holes that we are. I'm glad I'm not the first to have a more optimistic view on the ending, but personally I feel a spoiler is still a spoiler. Anyway, I'm curious to see the perspective of someone who read the story beginning to end this way. Eh I'm done arguing with the ending and what the comic turned into. There's no point in arguing because people have their own opinions of it which won't change, and hence a cycle happens. Just like Vriska, Davekat and Retcon discussions, the ending of homestuck discussion will be a cycle and won't get anywhere, so there's no point in arguing. I'd rather talk about what moments in Homestuck people like, stuff like that, since comic was a great experience for me in the past and I have an urge to go back to the beginning and reread the earlier acts despite being nearly done with act 5. I might make that topic actually. I definitely know this feeling. Trying to stay positive in a room where persistently negative opinions fly around can get trying. It's like, why are you going through so much trouble, putting so much energy into feeling worse about the story??? Of course I know it's not as simple as making a choice, but still. And while it can be annoying to deal with, I have a feeling the Act 7 debate won't be as bad. Probably one of the things that kept the arguments of old going on was "Well, let's just see what the story decides on it" of course that's no longer an option. And once the emotions settle down, I think it will be easier to discuss all this more rationally. I'll be looking forward to that. David Karp taking over the narrative would indeed be disastrous. However, I've argued that these recent updates have been more carefully planned than any previous. Andrew Hussie knew he couldn't put in everything, so he included enough to make an ending that would be emotionally satisfying* but thought-provoking. Incredibly thought-provoking, as is apparent on this forum. *Perhaps not for those who believed the kids' end goal was to defeat Lord English, which seems to be a majority here. But the comic has been telling us they wouldn't fight him for something like three years. It's certainly satisfying to the larger fanbase (see tumblr). Hey come to think of it, and going back to what I was saying about Lord English earlier, it's now quite fitting there was never much of an emotional throughline between him and the heroes, nothing to really make him feel like a villain worthy of their attention. Which is kind of the actual case. Despite his villainy and the danger he represents, he's just not in the focal point of the story. |
|
partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
Best Fraymotif
Posts: 126
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by partymember57 on Apr 16, 2016 16:45:25 GMT
Ok, I'll admit it first.... I didn't totally hate the trickster arc. I thought it was kind of funny in an absurd way. And I kind of liked seeing all the colors and candified shit. |
|
|
|
Post by trek on Apr 16, 2016 17:13:01 GMT
Ok, I'll admit it first.... I didn't totally hate the trickster arc. I thought it was kind of funny in an absurd way. And I kind of liked seeing all the colors and candified shit. I enjoyed the Trickster arc from the get-go; it was a brief diversion (only like a week's worth of updates or so), and combined wacked out versions of the characters "solving" their problems, absurdist humour, and also some horror in there. Dirk being totally resilient to the changes even while he was physically altered was brilliant, as was the weapon alchemization part (I always laugh when the just make Dirk's unbreakable katana and just stare at it while the narration plays it totally straight). It was also an innovative way to officially include the "trickster mode" that was an easter egg for so long. I feel like it left a bad taste in people's mouths after the whole "Caucasian" thing that's cast a shadow over it, but I honestly found it funny at how many people got offended by it. The page itself is even funnier now though, especially knowing the history behind it. Jane being "PEACHY" while other options include things like grapes and oranges is funny when you realize it was originally skin colours. Like if she wasn't PEACHY, then she might be ORANGEY and have orange skin or something. |
|
loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
|
Post by loading on Apr 16, 2016 17:16:36 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Gab on Apr 16, 2016 17:20:48 GMT
OH YEAH AND BEFORE I FORGET I HAD SOME THOUGHTS ON DOC SCRATCH AND CUE BALLS AS WELL. And since mageddondreams made some good points about that as well, it helps put some more pieces together for me as well. I guess I'll start there. Hypothetically speaking, if we're accepting cue balls as a constant symbol of endings or death, it's certainly fitting that Act 7 is represented by a white circle. And come to think of it, it ALSO makes sense that the bombs which seem to appear in all null sessions (and oh hey the ones in Caliborn's dead session too!! The mindblows do not stop) that come into play at the end of the session.
Doc Scratch referred to cue balls as his seeds, and Mindfang remarked that they in some way carried his will, even if they didn't seem to be sentient. Then I thought the A1 session's tumor remark when Meenah looked into it, "Better luck next time" was a bit of a snide remark to make for a mechanism that surely understood they wouldn't be the ones to play or know anything about sburb, or even have any memories of the universe as it was. It therefore seems plausible that the same influence can carry across universes. Or, if nothing else, that all these things are connected in SOME way. Giving us maybe a little bit more of a solid connection for figuring out how Doc Scratch somehow made the B2 session bomb capable of creating the green sun.
One thing I have trouble conciliating in my mind is why cue balls are associated with BOTH climactic destruction and omniscience. Supposing cue balls do in fact originate from god tier clocks, why do they seem to be designed to know everything? Wait, actually I thought of something. Maybe it's because it's the device which makes the decision of whether a death qualifies as heroic or just? It would make sense that in order to make such an important decision it would need to know everything. And in case it should ever need to, it also needs to be able to circumvent the invincibility supplied by the clockwork magics.
Which also makes me think, what if this has more than one application? If in a null session the tumor remains in Skaia's core, and the player decides to try and send the frog to it anyway, for one reason or another, is the tumor capable of killing the frog, even if it's flashing with the rainbow invincibility? Also, are ALL cue balls capable of and designed to explode? We saw Vriska's go off. I didn't know if that's just because Scratch generated an explosion where the cue ball happened to be, but maybe it could also be that they are designed to do that by themselves. Maybe in case of emergency, they blow up and destroy their god tier clocks? Rendering whoever it belongs to mortal?? That doesn't really make sense, but whatever.
There are of course still things to wonder. Like if all cue balls belong to and/or originate from god tier clocks, which most players don't have access to, why there are some laying around in the story. Unless maybe the session spawns a few for one reason or another, then due to time shenanigans end up on Earth and Alternia? They are fairly rare, all things considered. I'm also personally wondering if cue balls are naturally affiliated with the green sun and first guardian powers? I can't remember whether the explosion that killed the A1 trolls was green or not. I ask this because I'm trying to tie it into a theory I had about English circumventing his weakness with first guardian powers (as represented by bursting through Scratch). I guess it could work either way, becoming associated with first guardian powers himself makes him immune to his weakness, or else the additional powerup simply makes him capable of withstanding something he couldn't before. Or if maybe it's like a rock paper scissors thing? Where clockwork invincibility is defeated by cue ball omniscience, is defeated by green sun omnipotence? I dunno this post is getting out of hand but there ya go.
|
|
thecrystalship
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
sushi guro
Posts: 174
Pronouns: she/her/hers
|
Post by thecrystalship on Apr 16, 2016 17:28:10 GMT
Here's anew question I want to propse: Assuming that either the epilogue never comes or that it's really shitty, how do you feel about the comic? Do you hate it now? Love it despite these flaws? Moving forward, what do you think Homestuck will mean to you? I would hate it, but I'd honestly be more confused than upset. And I'd still remember the earlier parts fondly. As for what it will MEAN to me, everything comes down to the epilogue, because I literally don't know what it's supposed to mean yet. For example, let's take NGE, Mirai Nikki, and Madoka Magica. They would mean VERY different things to me if I hadn't watched End of Evangelion, Redial, or Rebellion, because they completely and radically alter the message of the work. IMO, that's the magnitude of what we're still waiting for. I may seem like an idiot for expecting anything as good as that, but he already gave us an Eva ending, so he might as well just follow through with the whole analogy. |
|
|
|
Post by mageddondreams on Apr 16, 2016 18:01:14 GMT
This is pretty ironic, because yesterday on Skype when I was complaining about people not understanding the frog I also made an LOTR analogy. "sure its reason for sendification was not Explained but that's more on the order of not knowing who the fuck tom bombadil was in lotr." Did we need to know why Bombadil originated to understand that he was powerful, and to appreciate his kindness to the hobbits? No, because in the grand scheme of the story he was a pretty minor player. Um, seriously ? Bombadil is a happy fellow who chastises willow and wight alike as if they were mildly misbehaving pets, the Ring has no ability to touch him, he lives peacefully in an abundant garden entirely wrapped up with his wife, and pretty much the only thing he ever does proactively is gives a bunch of animals their names. In the theological context of LotR, with those qualities he could not more clearly be an unFallen Adam who does not yet have the Knowledge of Good and Evil if there was a sign around his neck with that written on it in 120-point Mene Mene Tekel Bold Italic. |
|
|
|
Post by mageddondreams on Apr 16, 2016 18:04:18 GMT
I don't know why you people are so obsessed with the Shyamalan twists. How else do you get every last bit of juice out of a Shyamalan ? |
|
|
|
Post by curiousfellow on Apr 16, 2016 18:08:44 GMT
Q: Is Homestuck going to make more sense anytime in the near future? The plot is super cool, i just feel like it’s a friggen puzzle sometimes. Also, will ending be happy, sad, bittersweet, or OH GOD I’VE BEEN CRYING FOR MONTHS AND IT WONT STOP AAAHHH A: The thing is, Homestuck is both a story and a puzzle, by design and by definition. If asked to define it, “a story that’s also a puzzle” is as close to true as any answer I’d give. That quote you're giving there also includes the statement that "Failing to grasp everything shouldn't preclude basic enjoyment". The fate of the characters in the scene where Vriska opens the box, a bunch of which the reader might care about, is pretty important to the enjoyment of that scene I.E feeling glad/sad rather than confused. I've not read the entire thread, so I might've missed an example on this, but I don't recall that I've seen a part of homestuck where something important to the story was left up to the reader to find out. Not everything was called out immediately and not all the underlying mechanics were given on paper, but the big lines were always given to us. |
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 16, 2016 18:14:02 GMT
If you wanted to be spoonfed a completely linear ending, then you probably weren't really driven by any of the vaguer, more uncertain plot elements to begin with, like god tier aspects and classes, or the ultimate riddle. And I mean this as a statement on myself as much as anyone else. If you ask me, I think Homestuck is a much weaker story without its elements of mystery and intrigue. You know, the stuff that drove reader imagination so much in the first place, that led to the phenomenon of fantrolls. There's a difference between establishing which aspects are paired with which and establishing what events actually transpire, which up 'til now Homestuck never failed to do. That's weird. Oh, and as for the Skaian cloud framing device... Well, what if it's us, the reader? That's just something I kind of made up right now, but it feels fitting given all the meta chatter going on right now. What, you don't think Derse dreamers read Homestuck? :) Ok, I'll admit it first.... I didn't totally hate the trickster arc. I thought it was kind of funny in an absurd way. And I kind of liked seeing all the colors and candified shit. I didn't mind the Tricksters at all. I think a lot of the people who don't like them were serial readers who had that arc overshadowed by the Caucasian thing and/or were afraid they'd have more of a long-term impact then they ultimately did. But for whatever reason I never saw a reason to worry about that being the case. |
|
partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
Best Fraymotif
Posts: 126
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by partymember57 on Apr 16, 2016 19:34:24 GMT
I also kind of liked the trickster arc for seeing what the Alphas were like with any natural social inhibitions. I just found it really interesting on a psychological level.
|
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 16, 2016 19:51:05 GMT
I also kind of liked the trickster arc for seeing what the Alphas were like with any natural social inhibitions. I just found it really interesting on a psychological level. I still maintain it would've been hilarious to see Condy or Aranea contend with the Tricksters. |
|
partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
Best Fraymotif
Posts: 126
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by partymember57 on Apr 16, 2016 20:04:08 GMT
Just realized something. Roxy had to give Calliope the ring of life to bring her back to life, right? And Aranea losing the ring made her a ghost again. Now that Calliope is in Universe C, does she still have to wear the ring? Is she just gonna wear it forever?
|
|
loading
Raise of the Conductor's Baton
Posts: 435
|
Post by loading on Apr 16, 2016 20:05:32 GMT
She is still wearing it on the (possible?) earth scenes in act 7.
|
|
|
|
Post by curiousfellow on Apr 16, 2016 20:07:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by obsidalicious on Apr 16, 2016 20:21:11 GMT
This is pretty ironic, because yesterday on Skype when I was complaining about people not understanding the frog I also made an LOTR analogy. "sure its reason for sendification was not Explained but that's more on the order of not knowing who the fuck tom bombadil was in lotr." Did we need to know why Bombadil originated to understand that he was powerful, and to appreciate his kindness to the hobbits? No, because in the grand scheme of the story he was a pretty minor player. The frog had already been "bought" by Jade's bargain, and while its origin was unclear and potentially dangerous, it's not the point of the story. I would disagree that the Frog's origins aren't important, but in any case, it's not like that the only unanswered question. Take for instance, the humans turning up in the masterpiece. To continue the LOTR Analogy, it'd be like Frodo and Sam looking at the heavily guarded gates of Mordor, saying "We need to find another way in" and then a hard cut to them being in Mordor. Sure we could imagine all sorts of alternate ways in that may exist, but the entirety of LOTR has been closely following this journey, and all the challenges it presents, just skipping over a major obstacle kinda defeats the point of all that. |
|
|
|
Post by sparkeletran on Apr 16, 2016 20:56:37 GMT
This is pretty ironic, because yesterday on Skype when I was complaining about people not understanding the frog I also made an LOTR analogy. "sure its reason for sendification was not Explained but that's more on the order of not knowing who the fuck tom bombadil was in lotr." Did we need to know why Bombadil originated to understand that he was powerful, and to appreciate his kindness to the hobbits? No, because in the grand scheme of the story he was a pretty minor player. The frog had already been "bought" by Jade's bargain, and while its origin was unclear and potentially dangerous, it's not the point of the story. I would disagree that the Frog's origins aren't important, but in any case, it's not like that the only unanswered question. Take for instance, the humans turning up in the masterpiece. To continue the LOTR Analogy, it'd be like Frodo and Sam looking at the heavily guarded gates of Mordor, saying "We need to find another way in" and then a hard cut to them being in Mordor. Sure we could imagine all sorts of alternate ways in that may exist, but the entirety of LOTR has been closely following this journey, and all the challenges it presents, just skipping over a major obstacle kinda defeats the point of all that. I disagree with the analogy. We know how they'd get there - they're retconned in. We were told that. The real question is WHEN in this case. I dunno anything about LOTR so I can't compete with all the ~ fancy Tolkien analogies~ round here, and it's still a valid question to have, but it's a bit of a different situation - and, in my opinion, more acceptable. |
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 16, 2016 21:08:51 GMT
I would disagree that the Frog's origins aren't important, but in any case, it's not like that the only unanswered question. Take for instance, the humans turning up in the masterpiece. To continue the LOTR Analogy, it'd be like Frodo and Sam looking at the heavily guarded gates of Mordor, saying "We need to find another way in" and then a hard cut to them being in Mordor. Sure we could imagine all sorts of alternate ways in that may exist, but the entirety of LOTR has been closely following this journey, and all the challenges it presents, just skipping over a major obstacle kinda defeats the point of all that. I disagree with the analogy. We know how they'd get there - they're retconned in. We were told that. The real question is WHEN in this case. I dunno anything about LOTR so I can't compete with all the ~ fancy Tolkien analogies~ round here, and it's still a valid question to have, but it's a bit of a different situation - and, in my opinion, more acceptable. When actually doesn't matter as much as why. The kids are given no motivation whatsoever to go after Lord English, and if the vision of the kids on earth isn't just a dream or a possibility but what actually happened, it looks like that's something that doesn't change for the foreseeable future. |
|
|
|
Post by Blaperile on Apr 16, 2016 21:41:16 GMT
Here's how I would have solved Vriska's character arc: >10001-10005: Instead of showing Vriska walking off with the juju chest, I'd have her still on the ground wrestling with Hussie. Meanwhile, (Vriska) sneaks in from stage right. She absconds with the chest, smiling. Vriska, still pinned to the ground, watches in dumbfounded amazement--and while she's distracted, Hussie gives her a giant smooch on the cheek. Then (Vriska) meets up with GO!Terezi over the next hill, takes her hand, and they walk back toward the ghost army. >Act 7: Instead of Vriska's triumphant march heading up the ghost army, (Vriska) and GO!Terezi join up with Meenah, who is shocked and pleased. Meenah puts her hand on (Vriska)'s shoulder. All three share one last brief moment together before (Vriska) steps forward and releases the juju, killing all of them--but saving Paradox Space in the process. I know it's Hussie's story and he had the right to end it however he saw fit--and even though he said "draw your own conclusions" it kind of feels like shitting on his work to even write this out. But if it helps me deal, then hey--fix it fic is hardly anything new. Even though it would have been great to see Griska doing something awesome again, I don't think that would have been the way to go. She'd explicitly be stealing the spotlight from others again, exactly the thing she'd just learned not to do anymore. I personally think [S] Terezi: Remem8er is a great final wrap-up for Griska's arc, finally reuniting with Terezi after all they've been through. Out of all characters, I think Griska got one of the best wrap-ups. Now with some time to think on it, I think I know the problem: Act 7 was not a bad ending. In fact, aside from Vriska's undeserved glory, Act 7 was a downright amazing ending. The problem was Act 6: Hussie is great at coming up with quality content on the fly, but he's terrible at actually building toward something. Rather than make Act 6 build up and lead towards the ending, it kind of meanders around adding to the story and tying it in knots. When it got time to conclude, it simply wasn't set up to lead into the planned ending, and Hussie hastily tried to pull everything together and set up the ending with Collide. If he did Act 6 better, Act 7 would have been great. Even if we forget about the stuff that was added in Act 6, Act 7 refused to address a lot of stuff from the earlier acts. Whatever happened to the matriorb restoring the troll race? Are the kids still trapped in predestination bullshit despite the happy ending? Or what? That's the point of an open ending. It's up to you to decide on how it goes further from here, unless Andrew reveals more in future projects. Also, we already know the Matriorb restored the Troll race. We saw those Trolls that got killed by the Cherubs their father. Apparently, A shame she didn't back up mspaforums.com first. If all those DgallowsCalibrator posts are gone forever... it pears at my heart. This is exactly the laugh I needed right now. DOUBLE EDIT: I just realized that out of all the S***b players that made it out, two aspects are not represented among them: Rage and Doom. I think it's an interesting point, because those two aspects seem to have pretty negative associations. Though interestingly, there still are a living Hero of Rage and Hero of Doom around. Gamzee was stuck in the fridge but survived, and pre-retcon Sollux is fully alive but in the Dreambubbles. Because of the retcon, it's possible Caliborn's time line split. Which would mean there were two of him. So did this happen? And if so, what happened to the other one? The only way people seem to "survive" a retcon is by joining the person who zaps (like the people on LOWAS when John zapped), and by dying before the retcon happens. So, I'm pretty sure there's only one Caliborn running around while the other one simply got overwritten. |
|
|
|
Post by sparkeletran on Apr 16, 2016 22:17:33 GMT
I disagree with the analogy. We know how they'd get there - they're retconned in. We were told that. The real question is WHEN in this case. I dunno anything about LOTR so I can't compete with all the ~ fancy Tolkien analogies~ round here, and it's still a valid question to have, but it's a bit of a different situation - and, in my opinion, more acceptable. When actually doesn't matter as much as why. The kids are given no motivation whatsoever to go after Lord English, and if the vision of the kids on earth isn't just a dream or a possibility but what actually happened, it looks like that's something that doesn't change for the foreseeable future. Good point. I feel that's probably (or hopefully, at least) something that'll be touched upon the epilogue in some form - even if it's as simple as the worry of the possibility of Vriska having failed to eliminate that threat. |
|
imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
Meet the Meme Team
Posts: 633
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
|
Post by imglasses on Apr 16, 2016 22:57:06 GMT
I feel like people are extremely understating the problems with the ending.
I hear a lot of, "well of course you can't expect Hussie to answer every single question about the plot." No, of course you can't, but you definitely can expect the main plot points to be resolved, which they weren't.
And I also hear that quote about Homestuck being a puzzle a lot. Homestuck has always been a puzzle, and that's why we've loved it. But the ending isn't a puzzle. Pieces don't fit together, some pieces are completely missing. We like Homestuck being a puzzle because, until now, the puzzle pieces always come together.
And yes, Homestuck is a mystery, which is what makes it interesting. But in every mystery, you get the answers by the end. People like mysteries because they like to see how everything comes together, and because there's always a cool plot twist at the end. Nobody would read a murder mystery if it ended before you found out who the murderer was.
It's always fun when we get to infer the answers to questions in Homestuck. It was always a big mystery how Grandpa got into the Medium, and we were never told explicitly, but by mid-Act 6 we had enough information to figure it out ourselves. But with this ending, there's several theories that are equally valid. There's no way to truly figure out the answer, so we just have to make up an ending or go with one of many endings fans have come up with. That's really just bad story telling. Hussie should have been able to pull everything together himself, like he did at the end of Act 5. He's the one who intentionally created all of these plot elements, who placed many instances of foreshadowing, who knew what all of this was supposed to lead up to. He's the author, not me, not random people on Tumblr. I want to know where his story was going, but there's simply no way for us to know—unless his epilogue is fairly plot-heavy, even though epilogues are generally just about how the characters are doing.
|
|
