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Post by legendary on Jun 30, 2016 16:27:35 GMT
How can you escape a black hole after you've been sucked in? You wait patiently for your puppets to be recovered from the void and for your unstoppable soul to be summoned once again. Until one of them calls up the bubbles again. Meenah did it. Feferi did it. I doubt they're that unique. Except the cracking of the Furthest Ring is stabilizing all the aspects out there, including Time. This suggests to me that from this point on, time will progress in a linear way meaning that all future SBURB sessions will be without the Green Sun, a stabilized Furthest Ring, and a decreasing amount of Horrorterrors and Dreambubbles. Time is still not progressing linearly in the FR. Calliope was born eons after Jade's planet died, and yet the two of them met when the damage was greatest. All of the damage done to the ring was absorbed by the black hole, suggesting that now the FR is free to continue on in a non-linear fashion, excepting the parts absorbed by the Green Sun. Further, even if Time and Space are permanently stabilized, that doesn't mean things will be linear - the universes and sessions we see all have causal loops and if the FR is easily navigable then it stands to reason that time travelers can work their magic to ensure pretty much the same result. As for HT numbers, again, there basically already has to be an infinity of them because there's already basically an infinity of sessions out there. LE killing them isn't a threat to the species because he doesn't have infinite time - it's only a threat to the individuals. Jade as a dreamer is in a state that can exist just fine out of bubbles - that's what happens when the dreamers aren't given one in the first place. Well, she did take her place at his side. She escaped and ran right into his clutches. Doc Scratch's statement has been literally fulfilled and I'd say assuming he meant they'd be cooperating or working in tandem a bunch is a deadly mistake to make with the Doc. What if the only reason Caliborn could control the narrative was that Hussie was dead?
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Jun 30, 2016 16:53:19 GMT
Until one of them calls up the bubbles again. Meenah did it. Feferi did it. I doubt they're that unique. Meenah never called up the bubbles; that was all Feferi's doing. Meenah just took advantage of them being there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2016 16:56:47 GMT
How can you escape a black hole after you've been sucked in? You wait patiently for your puppets to be recovered from the void and for your unstoppable soul to be summoned once again. pretty much that. or if it just so happens that you are the most powerful time god that ever existed, you can go back to when the hole wasn't here yet also they aren't actually holes but rather super-dense spheres that disintegrate stuff with their gravitational pull, but that's beside the point. the important part is that even normal cherubs use them as setting for mating, and our lord definitely even more durable
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Jun 30, 2016 17:47:31 GMT
Lord English can time travel to before the black hole existed.
He could also spatially teleport out, since, in the Furthest Ring, traveling to a different point in time is equivalent to traveling to a different point in space.
Cherubs use black holes as their mating grounds. They seem to naturally be able to resist their pull for whatever reason.
Only one iteration of LE was trapped (if he even was sucked in, which we don't know). He can still be summoned again and again. And who knows how many terrible things this iteration has done which occured earlier on his personal timeline but occurred in the future for the protagonists.
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The One Guy
Rust Maid
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Post by The One Guy on Jun 30, 2016 17:59:49 GMT
Cherubs use black holes as their mating grounds. They seem to naturally be able to resist their pull for whatever reason. ... This made me think. If it is a phyche ending, that means that in the epilogue we'll be faced with a situation where two opposite gender cherubs are by a black hole and the cherub mating exposition hasn't paid off yet...
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Jun 30, 2016 18:27:50 GMT
Cherubs use black holes as their mating grounds. They seem to naturally be able to resist their pull for whatever reason. ... This made me think. If it is a phyche ending, that means that in the epilogue we'll be faced with a situation where two opposite gender cherubs are by a black hole and the cherub mating exposition hasn't paid off yet... Maybe that was the real purpose of the black hole. To set the mood. We did learn earlier that even though cherubs are invincible during the mating process, they're vulnerable to each other. This would be the only way he could be actually harmed. All the implications about him being sexually attracted to her would pay off too.
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Post by [Meme Friend] TheOddISee on Jul 1, 2016 3:39:09 GMT
Upon further inspection I realize I have no idea how to add the party flag to my sig...
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 1, 2016 4:38:30 GMT
Upon further inspection I realize I have no idea how to add the party flag to my sig... Right click the sigflag of your choice and click 'copy image address'. Click the 'Profile button' at the top of the page, click on 'Edit Profile' on the right, go to the 'Personal' tab and put [img]<the image adress>[img] into the signature field.
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Post by Blaperile on Jul 1, 2016 10:23:09 GMT
For anyone who's interested, I made a list of all instances of characters that appear in Homestuck and the canon PXS stories, and counted how many pages in Homestuck they "experienced" from their perspective. How can you escape a black hole after you've been sucked in? You wait patiently for your puppets to be recovered from the void and for your unstoppable soul to be summoned once again. I meant the actual instance of Lord English that was sucked in, how could he escape from that black hole? Sure, I know another Lil Cal can spawn somewhere, but with the Green Sun destroyed there can't be another Doc Scratch and Lord English, there can be at most another Lord Jack-like figure who is way more beatable than an actual Lord English. Until one of them calls up the bubbles again. Meenah did it. Feferi did it. I doubt they're that unique. I doubt it's possible if Lord English was never stopped and completely cracked the Furthest Ring and killed all Horrorterrors. Time is still not progressing linearly in the FR. Calliope was born eons after Jade's planet died, and yet the two of them met when the damage was greatest. Calliope was already there before the cracks ever came though, she was just waiting for a signal so that she could leave. All of the damage done to the ring was absorbed by the black hole, suggesting that now the FR is free to continue on in a non-linear fashion, excepting the parts absorbed by the Green Sun. We don't know just how big that circle of cracks was though. It could have encompassed a really, really big part of the Furthest Ring. Plus, that gaping hole there might also have its effect on the rest of the Furthest Ring. As for HT numbers, again, there basically already has to be an infinity of them because there's already basically an infinity of sessions out there. LE killing them isn't a threat to the species because he doesn't have infinite time - it's only a threat to the individuals. We don't know how long these Horrorterrors can live though. Perhaps they have a natural lifespan of thousands of years and there are only a relatively limited amount of individuals serving all sessions out there. Jade as a dreamer is in a state that can exist just fine out of bubbles - that's what happens when the dreamers aren't given one in the first place. Hmm, fair point that dreamers can exist outside a bubble. But on the other hand, it's been shown before that dreamers such as Dirk could impossibly leave a bubble once they were in it. So the fact that Jade can leave it now, means there must be something very special that allowed her to exit now. I personally think it makes most sense that it's because the bubbles are a way the aspect of Life manifests itself in the Furthest Ring, and with the effects on the Furthest Ring it's losing its ability to contain the souls inside. Well, she did take her place at his side. She escaped and ran right into his clutches. Doc Scratch's statement has been literally fulfilled and I'd say assuming he meant they'd be cooperating or working in tandem a bunch is a deadly mistake to make with the Doc. What Doc Scratch does literally state is that as The Handmaid through time, she follows Lord English's orders and not Doc Scratch's. Which was the original point I was trying to make, that Lord English is not dumb at all, and is perfectly capable of telling the Handmaid exactly what she needs to do at which points in time. What if the only reason Caliborn could control the narrative was that Hussie was dead? What Caliborn claims is the following: According to him it didn't really matter whether Andrew was dead or not, he could assume full control anyway. Also, we already know that after Andrew was dead he could continue narrating, so I don't think his death made any difference on that front. also they aren't actually holes but rather super-dense spheres that disintegrate stuff with their gravitational pull, but that's beside the point. the important part is that even normal cherubs use them as setting for mating, and our lord definitely even more durable The difference is though that this particular black hole is originating from the Green Sun, a star with the mass of two universes, which is much more than any 'ordinary' black hole from an 'ordinary' sun. I really wouldn't be surprised if a cherub, even if it's Lord English, can't handle a black hole THIS massive. ... This made me think. If it is a phyche ending, that means that in the epilogue we'll be faced with a situation where two opposite gender cherubs are by a black hole and the cherub mating exposition hasn't paid off yet... Nah, Alternate Calliope already said Jade would be the last person she'd ever see, implying she won't ever see Lord English either.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 1, 2016 11:40:32 GMT
You wait patiently for your puppets to be recovered from the void and for your unstoppable soul to be summoned once again. I meant the actual instance of Lord English that was sucked in, how could he escape from that black hole? Sure, I know another Lil Cal can spawn somewhere, but with the Green Sun destroyed there can't be another Doc Scratch and Lord English, there can be at most another Lord Jack-like figure who is way more beatable than an actual Lord English. But Lord English himself was never the biggest problem. It was Scratch, the Handmaid and their influence over Alternia that caused that planet to be such a hellhole. It was Gamzee that made the kids' session terminal. It was Li'l Cal that made Dave's childhood what it was. All that's needed for that kind of stuff to start up again on another world is a vehicle through which the Lord's influence can come through. Like Li'l Cal. ... This made me think. If it is a phyche ending, that means that in the epilogue we'll be faced with a situation where two opposite gender cherubs are by a black hole and the cherub mating exposition hasn't paid off yet... Nah, Alternate Calliope already said Jade would be the last person she'd ever see, implying she won't ever see Lord English either. Unless of course she was wrong. In fact, if I remember correctly, I think BKEW had some kind of compilation up of characters claiming something will never happen, only for that to all but guarantee it actually would.
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cookiefonster
Dead
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Post by cookiefonster on Jul 1, 2016 13:40:56 GMT
Is anyone else in the "I don't fucking know" party or is that just gonna be a one-man thing?
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Post by melonlord on Jul 1, 2016 14:17:17 GMT
Is anyone else in the "I don't fucking know" party or is that just gonna be a one-man thing? I am. My position's kind of odd, because I seriously have no idea what Hussie was trying to do with this ending. I've latched on to "Lord English Wins" because, hilariously enough, it seems to make the most thematic sense and tie up the most plot ends and details. But I'm completely clueless as to whether this was intentional, or if Hussie just seriously screwed up, or if there's some other meaning here I'm completely missing, or what. I haven't the foggiest idea what the epilogue will be either. "Lord English Wins" makes the most sense as an outcome based on what's there, but I have no idea what any of it means anymore.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Jul 1, 2016 14:38:10 GMT
Is anyone else in the "I don't fucking know" party or is that just gonna be a one-man thing? I am. My position's kind of odd, because I seriously have no idea what Hussie was trying to do with this ending. I've latched on to "Lord English Wins" because, hilariously enough, it seems to make the most thematic sense and tie up the most plot ends and details. But I'm completely clueless as to whether this was intentional, or if Hussie just seriously screwed up, or if there's some other meaning here I'm completely missing, or what. I haven't the foggiest idea what the epilogue will be either. "Lord English Wins" makes the most sense as an outcome based on what's there, but I have no idea what any of it means anymore. Damn STRAIGHT. Maybe he thinks there's some kind of charm in ending on an ambiguous note? That would be kind of dumb but also at least make a smidgen of sense.
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Post by spacedwarfindustries on Jul 1, 2016 14:49:50 GMT
Having just read through the PS ending, it ends on a surprisingly similar note, except that the Big Bad died a gory onscreen death first.
The protagonists get the macguffin, go through the final door, fade to white, you're a winner.
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Post by Gab on Jul 1, 2016 15:35:06 GMT
Lord English can time travel to before the black hole existed. Assuming he isn't separated from his cairo overcoat, and that he doesn't need that to time travel. People frequently ignore that the cracks were said to stabilize the nature of the void. As one draws closer to them, space and time begin to act in a more familiar manner. Even if that isn't the case, who's to say a black hole in a place without standard laws of physics doesn't itself behave in a manner beyond what we typically associate with them? In fact, considering the black hole in question seems to be destroying the void around itself, that seems a fairly reasonable assumption. They might be able to resist its pull, but there's nothing to suggest they're any more capable of escaping its event horizon than any other force in the universe. If they were, say, forcibly knocked into it during a climactic final engagement. Unless Lord English's existence is linear, like I think it is. Like a juju, the appearance of there being more than one instance of him is at best an illusion. Obviously there's no way to measure time from one reality he enters to the next, so he exists in multiple "iterations," but I think it's very likely that as he's born into a new universe again and again, it's at the moment that he exits the previous one, retreating back into the void to claim his next target. The fact that I'm pretty sure we never see an example of how he most regularly did this trick I think makes all this that much fuzzier. Though I guess this makes me consider. If English was destined to escape the black hole, that means his future self could appear back in time, and possibly assist himself in escaping. Anyway, all this fascinating hypothetical talk aside, trapping an invincible opponent in an inescapable prison like a black hole is about as appropriate and feasible a solution as I can imagine. Upon further inspection I realize I have no idea how to add the party flag to my sig... In addition to what obsidalicious said, you can use [div align="center"][/div] if you want the flag(s) to be centered in your signature. But Lord English himself was never the biggest problem. It was Scratch, the Handmaid and their influence over Alternia that caused that planet to be such a hellhole. It was Gamzee that made the kids' session terminal. It was Li'l Cal that made Dave's childhood what it was. All that's needed for that kind of stuff to start up again on another world is a vehicle through which the Lord's influence can come through. Like Li'l Cal. You mean all those servants and/or extensions of English? Who existed because of him and served his bidding at every turn? That still makes Lord English the big problem. Is anyone else in the "I don't fucking know" party or is that just gonna be a one-man thing? Wanna know something? I think everyone is secretly in that party. Some people think they aren't, but they are. Having just read through the PS ending, it ends on a surprisingly similar note, except that the Big Bad died a gory onscreen death first. The protagonists get the macguffin, go through the final door, fade to white, you're a winner. Trouble is, that ending is somewhat more conclusive and definite than this one. This one is kind of ambiguous, especially about how the final battle goes down. With Problem Sleuth, we know the Adventure Continues, I guess into Problem Sleuth 2 of the B2 Universe. Also, Problem Sleuth managed to wrap up all its puzzles and loose ends before the final page, where Homestuck intentionally leaves them open ended.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 1, 2016 15:56:05 GMT
Lord English can time travel to before the black hole existed. Assuming he isn't separated from his cairo overcoat, and that he doesn't need that to time travel. Dave and Aradia have both proven that a Time player doesn't need a conduit to mess with time. Dave did it in Collide without his turn tables and, without her music boxes, Aradia was able to freeze Noir in his tracks. But Lord English himself was never the biggest problem. It was Scratch, the Handmaid and their influence over Alternia that caused that planet to be such a hellhole. It was Gamzee that made the kids' session terminal. It was Li'l Cal that made Dave's childhood what it was. All that's needed for that kind of stuff to start up again on another world is a vehicle through which the Lord's influence can come through. Like Li'l Cal. You mean all those servants and/or extensions of English? Who existed because of him and served his bidding at every turn? You mean all those people who caused problems without English ever having to actually be there himself? The physical manifestation of English that Vriska confronts never caused anywhere near as much damage as English's servants, who were all recruited, created and manipulated by....Li'l Cal. Which can presumably still be pulled from the Void to cause more damage, even if Vriska took down the hulk skull monster.
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Post by Gab on Jul 1, 2016 19:48:06 GMT
Dave and Aradia have both proven that a Time player doesn't need a conduit to mess with time. Dave did it in Collide without his turn tables and, without her music boxes, Aradia was able to freeze Noir in his tracks. That's true. Come to think of it, this makes me wonder why he'd bother having a time-traveling coat to begin with. It occurred to me too late I was responding to your post without realizing exactly what you were arguing, sorry that's my bad. Still though, even you claim that it's Lord English's will, the wheels he puts in motion and the way his lackeys go about their servitude that makes these people so dangerous. If English dies, or is prevented from doing anything ever again, this aspect of him too is lost. How can he sic his servants on you when he's no longer capable of recruiting them? You can argue Lil Cal, but I still personally believe that's a linear experience for himself, one of many methods he uses to travel through time and space. In particular, how he crosses from one universe to another. Although when observed from a more standard timeline this makes it appear there are several simultaneous and autonomous instances of himself, that's no more true than it is that there were 5 or 6 separate Daves running around in the B1 session. It's the same person, with a past, present & future of his own, and those past selves aren't going to step out of line if they weren't destined to. If Lord English never realizes or is incapable of bailing his own future self out of a jam, then no iteration of him that could possibly spawn from the void will ever do so, because he didn't do that in his past. I suppose there is the possibility of him having his own doomed timeline alternate selves, but for some reason I can't picture him being capable of having them.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 1, 2016 20:05:53 GMT
It occurred to me too late I was responding to your post without realizing exactly what you were arguing, sorry that's my bad. Still though, even you claim that it's Lord English's will, the wheels he puts in motion and the way his lackeys go about their servitude that makes these people so dangerous. If English dies, or is prevented from doing anything ever again, this aspect of him too is lost. How can he sic his servants on you when he's no longer capable of recruiting them? You can argue Lil Cal, but I still personally believe that's a linear experience for himself, one of many methods he uses to travel through time and space. In particular, how he crosses from one universe to another. Although when observed from a more standard timeline this makes it appear there are several simultaneous and autonomous instances of himself, that's no more true than it is that there were 5 or 6 separate Daves running around in the B1 session. It's the same person, with a past, present & future of his own, and those past selves aren't going to step out of line if they weren't destined to. If Lord English never realizes or is incapable of bailing his own future self out of a jam, then no iteration of him that could possibly spawn from the void will ever do so, because he didn't do that in his past. I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but none of it seems to be refuting the possibility that Li'l Cal can just be used the same way it was on Gamzee, even with LE defeated, if he even was.
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Post by DS Piron on Jul 1, 2016 21:28:07 GMT
Assuming he isn't separated from his cairo overcoat, and that he doesn't need that to time travel. Dave and Aradia have both proven that a Time player doesn't need a conduit to mess with time. Dave did it in Collide without his turn tables and, without her music boxes, Aradia was able to freeze Noir in his tracks. Something I noticed; both Dave and Aradia were God Tiers at that time, but I'm not sure Caliborn ever achieved God Tier at all. He just gained the god tier's immortality, but without any caveats.EDIT: Forgot about him wearing the GT hood under his overall during Collide. So, nope, He's God Tier. Also, what happened the the Lil Cal in the troll session after it was ghost slimed for Doc Scratch? Is it still a soul jar Juju? Would that mean Doc Scratch wasn't?
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Post by Gab on Jul 1, 2016 22:10:26 GMT
I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but none of it seems to be refuting the possibility that Li'l Cal can just be used the same way it was on Gamzee, even with LE defeated, if he even was. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that doll was destroyed for good. Plus most major characters know Cal is dangerous now. And its influence is very limited. While we don't know all the details about how the juju worked at large, even getting Gamzee under his control appeared to require inventing an entire religion for Gamzee to follow so that he'd be susceptible to English's commands at a vulnerable moment.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 1, 2016 23:47:51 GMT
I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but none of it seems to be refuting the possibility that Li'l Cal can just be used the same way it was on Gamzee, even with LE defeated, if he even was. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that doll was destroyed for good. Possibly, but since there's another retcon John flying around, that means his end has the potential to be undone anyway. And Li'l Cal's time line isn't exactly linear. He was pulled from the Void at a time before he was even created. It doesn't really matter if (as we can't know) Post-retcon Union Jack came to be the exact same way pre-retcon Union Jack did and that was the end of the road for Li'l Cal. He can still pop up even after being destroyed, just as he can pop up before being born. Plus most major characters know Cal is dangerous now. And its influence is very limited. While we don't know all the details about how the juju worked at large, even getting Gamzee under his control appeared to require inventing an entire religion for Gamzee to follow so that he'd be susceptible to English's commands at a vulnerable moment. That is not a problem at all. The thing doesn't have to influence any of the kids, it can influence anybody else from the Universe they made who doesn't know jack shit about the puppet, who then causes havoc through time. And it didn't have to invent a religion to have an affect on Beta!Dirk, or possibly Vriska, if that theory is true.
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Post by Gab on Jul 2, 2016 1:15:30 GMT
Possibly, but since there's another retcon John flying around, that means his end has the potential to be undone anyway. I don't get what you mean by this. We've already seen that B2 Jack getting that pumpkin spans timelines and apparently precludes Gamzee's involvement in that session. Are you suggesting John would undo or prevent it in some fashion? What I meant was, it's linear from its own perspective. Lord English has to follow the rule of stable time loops like everyone else. Obviously he and his tools can appear at any point in time, as long as it all lines up sensibly from his own point of view. Even if Lil Cal appears in the future from this perspective (and by definition he will, considering he is resting at the bottom of the ocean waiting to be discovered by Caliborn), it's still in a past moment of the item's linear history. If English has never from his present moment decided to come to the future from this perspective, and he's about to be trapped in a situation he can never escape from, a version will never appear in the future, because he didn't in his past, a fact which can't be changed, and won't in his own personal future, because that is impossible for him. This is all hypothetical talk anyway, because obviously we don't know what happens or what English is capable of, willing to do, or has already foreseen. Then there's the depressing possibility that English CAN come back from his own future to help himself succeed, thereby cementing his victory in destiny. Actually, it is a kind of funny thought I brought up earlier that English is physically incapable of creating doomed offshoots. He HAS to make a move that the alpha allows, or else it doesn't happen. Especially because it makes a nice complement to John's powers to haphazardly overwrite anything and create a new alpha, rendering the above remark about English's destiny pointless. Actually, in my head, I can't decide if English would just fight more normally for the final battle, like he did in Collide, or if he would exploit the flow of time to its fullest extent in an all out superpower blitz with the heroes. Real showstopping stuff. That, um, is just some random thoughts blurted out that I've had about all this. What? My mind likes to wander, filling in the blanks on how all this stuff is going down on the other side of the curtains. The thing is, most normal people would just think of themselves as crazy, or ignore the voices coming from the doll altogether. He could find someone already unhinged, but they probably won't have any meaningful power and will go ignored in whatever society they're in. Or he could spend the years it would take to carefully manipulate that person into the position he wants, which is not something I'd put beyond English's capacity, but again, that's IF he knows he NEEDS to do it for the sake of saving himself from last-minute destruction, which itself is not something we've seen him do or need to do. The plans he puts in motion have far wider-reaching, more permanent consequences than being one-offs. Dirk was affected, but didn't serve English's cause, consciously, incidentally, or otherwise. In fact, he appeared to be subconsciously training his charge to defeat English. Vriska is another story, a mentally unhinged individual who still comes from a planet English has been working over since the dawn of her race, and she herself has been the target of Scratch's manipulation for a good chunk of her life directly.
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Post by melonlord on Jul 2, 2016 2:34:18 GMT
What I meant was, it's linear from its own perspective. Lord English has to follow the rule of stable time loops like everyone else. Obviously he and his tools can appear at any point in time, as long as it all lines up sensibly from his own point of view. Even if Lil Cal appears in the future from this perspective (and by definition he will, considering he is resting at the bottom of the ocean waiting to be discovered by Caliborn), it's still in a past moment of the item's linear history. If English has never from his present moment decided to come to the future from this perspective, and he's about to be trapped in a situation he can never escape from, a version will never appear in the future, because he didn't in his past, a fact which can't be changed, and won't in his own personal future, because that is impossible for him. This is all hypothetical talk anyway, because obviously we don't know what happens or what English is capable of, willing to do, or has already foreseen. Then there's the depressing possibility that English CAN come back from his own future to help himself succeed, thereby cementing his victory in destiny. I think this is basically the dangerous bit he was talking about. Even if the kids did defeat Lord English permanently, and there's no way for his future self to help him, it doesn't matter from the kids' point of view. There's still a whole completely unknown and unaccounted span of time between LE's creation and defeat during which he destroys, according to Doc Scratch, countless universes. The universes aren't connected in any sort of meaningful linear time progression, and even if they were, LE's a time traveler. To him, it's all just arbitrary points to choose from. As you mentioned, a past version of Lil Cal could pop up at any moment in the kids' universe; that it's "after" the point of Lil Cal's destruction is completely meaningless. True, he still has to make everything line up with his personal timeline, and if cal's past self never went into the kids' universe there's no way to set that up now, but we have no idea what LE's personal timeline is; it's just a massive blank spot. From the kids' point of view, they may as well have never defeated him at all. This is why it was so important (or I thought it would be important, anyway) that the kids leave paradox space entirely and shut the door behind them. If the two realities are completely sundered, and lil cal doesn't hitch a ride with them, then LE is fucked. There is no vector of influence he can use to weasel his way into the new reality; he's trapped in the old world and the kids are free. A universe, on the other hand, is hardly any protection at all. Even if they prevented LE's future self from messing with them, and ended his personal timeline, they're still completely at the mercy of his past self.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jul 2, 2016 4:30:42 GMT
Possibly, but since there's another retcon John flying around, that means his end has the potential to be undone anyway. I don't get what you mean by this. We've already seen that B2 Jack getting that pumpkin spans timelines and apparently precludes Gamzee's involvement in that session. Are you suggesting John would undo or prevent it in some fashion? I'm saying he could. I don't think that would be the point of whatever shenanigans he might be trying to pull, but it could be a side effect of something else he changes. And if the theory about Vriska making Union Jack because she listened to Li'l Cal is true, than B2 Jack being created is something that can be avoided. What I meant was, it's linear from its own perspective. Lord English has to follow the rule of stable time loops like everyone else. Obviously he and his tools can appear at any point in time, as long as it all lines up sensibly from his own point of view. Even if Lil Cal appears in the future from this perspective (and by definition he will, considering he is resting at the bottom of the ocean waiting to be discovered by Caliborn), it's still in a past moment of the item's linear history. If English has never from his present moment decided to come to the future from this perspective, and he's about to be trapped in a situation he can never escape from, a version will never appear in the future, because he didn't in his past, a fact which can't be changed, and won't in his own personal future, because that is impossible for him. The physical manifestations of English aren't necessarily tied to the doll though. While Union Jack seemingly needed to destroy the doll to exist, Scratch and then English's physical manifestation did not. If Vriska defeats English, that doesn't stop the doll from doing more damage, because his essence is still in the doll. And even if the skull monster was tied to the doll, for all we know he already has infiltrated the kids' Universe and caused trouble for them (which might even explain the lack of life on the Earth while the cherubs are living on it) before the point in his time line where Vriska confronts him. The thing is, most normal people would just think of themselves as crazy, or ignore the voices coming from the doll altogether. He could find someone already unhinged, but they probably won't have any meaningful power and will go ignored in whatever society they're in. You mean like the High Bloods? Who seem uniquely suited to being manipulated by Lord English and were the third highest ranking trolls on their planets, with billions of trolls at the mercy of their chucklevoodoos? Just brushing that off as a possibility seems short sighted when English's specialty is twisting causality to his will, which is like a weaponized version of murphy's law: anything that can go wrong, will. So if it serves causality, it's guaranteed that whoever the doll finds will be successfully used to advance English's agenda. Even if you're right (which, given the doll's record, seems unlikely) one of the biggest reasons Gamzee got a way with what he did was because no one took him seriously. Even after he went crazy, no one suspected what he was really up to, which only helped him accomplish his goals. Dirk was affected, but didn't serve English's cause, consciously, incidentally, or otherwise. In fact, he appeared to be subconsciously training his charge to defeat English. Which was sort of what Caliborn wanted anyway, and wasn't something Dave ever actually did. Union Jack is close but not quite the real McCoy, and Dave himself said his brother's training made him not want to fight. Vriska is another story, a mentally unhinged individual who still comes from a planet English has been working over since the dawn of her race, and she herself has been the target of Scratch's manipulation for a good chunk of her life directly. Li'l Cal by itself was powerful enough to incredibly screw up Dave and John. Even without Scratch, it could easily infiltrate the kids' new Universe, create another hellhole planet like Alternia, and bring into being a similarly unhinged kid to follow the doll's orders as long as it's still around.
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Post by obsidalicious on Jul 2, 2016 4:40:54 GMT
banditAffiliate, how exactly are you a member of both the "English Wins" party, and the "Everything is Fine" party? Those two are pretty much polar opposites. Is this for the niche of people who reckon English is actually the good guy?
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