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Post by melonlord on Dec 2, 2016 6:53:18 GMT
The John comparison could easily be completely correct. No, I think we can be fairly certain that John isn't a Soul Fusion of Jane and Jake. For one thing, we see that the machine worked with Genetic Material, not anything else. On top of that, if John was a Soul Fusion of nanna!Jane and granddad!Jake, then wouldn't he have their memories, since that's how it worked with every other fusion? You're assuming that Aranea was actually right about the Glitches thing. For one thing, Aranea herself isn't exactly the most stable and trustworthy individual. After all, if she really believed that, why did her plan just involve the application of basic Sburb powers? If she was right, then her own plan would never work. Or maybe using powers in the unusual fashion she attempted was what she meant by 'glitch' or 'exploit', in which case defeating Lord English with powers is still a viable option. Secondly, where did Aranea get all this info? The number of anti-English prophecies that seemed to spring up out of nowhere is too convenient. Given how some of them are not only wrong but actually helped English in the long run, I suspect that several, if not all of these prophecies were red herrings and/or traps laid by English himself. Although, now that I say it, can anyone actually cite this prophecy in question? I do remember it being said, yet I can't find it in the page search function nor in the Openbound transcripts. It was actually mentioned in the Intermission, if I recall correctly. And not really so much a prophecy as Slick musing on rumors of LE's weaknesses. EDIT: Here it is. It might have been mentioned later as well, but I can't recall where, or if it was mentioned again at all.
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Post by nakAratoo on Dec 2, 2016 17:31:51 GMT
The John comparison could easily be completely correct. No, I think we can be fairly certain that John isn't a Soul Fusion of Jane and Jake. For one thing, we see that the machine worked with Genetic Material, not anything else. On top of that, if John was a Soul Fusion of nanna!Jane and granddad!Jake, then wouldn't he have their memories, since that's how it worked with every other fusion? You're assuming that Aranea was actually right about the Glitches thing. For one thing, Aranea herself isn't exactly the most stable and trustworthy individual. After all, if she really believed that, why did her plan just involve the application of basic Sburb powers? If she was right, then her own plan would never work. Or maybe using powers in the unusual fashion she attempted was what she meant by 'glitch' or 'exploit', in which case defeating Lord English with powers is still a viable option. Secondly, where did Aranea get all this info? The number of anti-English prophecies that seemed to spring up out of nowhere is too convenient. Given how some of them are not only wrong but actually helped English in the long run, I suspect that several, if not all of these prophecies were red herrings and/or traps laid by English himself. Although, now that I say it, can anyone actually cite this prophecy in question? I do remember it being said, yet I can't find it in the page search function nor in the Openbound transcripts. So now combined sprites are soul fusions? My point is the mechanics behind these things are obscure and frankly unknowable. There's no way to tell because the story never focused on it. John IS a combination of Grandpa and Nanna IN A SENSE, and that's all an aspect dealing with the abstract concept of the self requires, in my opinion. We'll never know because it was never tested, just like we'll never know if that kind of power can pull souls apart once they've been combined. As for LE's weaknesses, I wasn't making an argument from fact; we could easily argue forever about which statements on the matter are true and which are false. I was very clearly speaking from my own opinion on the matter, which is that LE is built up as unbeatable in such a way that a story that gives him a simpler weakness is a weaker story for it. It doesn't particularly interest me whether Dave's Caledfwlch could actually hurt him, in as far as I hope it can't kill him because I don't think that's an interesting resolution.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Dec 2, 2016 18:30:37 GMT
Would squared sprites count as a glitch? I doubt they were ever meant to be, and the only sprites squared exist as abominations crossing various sessions/ timelines (Pre-Ret Rose and Post-Ret Jaspersprite // Pre-Ret Davesprite(who was also from a doomed timeline on top of that) and Post-Ret Nepeta's corpse.)
Huh now that I have it written out like that, one half of the Squared Sprites are just a normal sprite and a dead player. Also one post-ret and one pre-ret. Hmmm. I wonder if that's relevant.
Then again I doubt any of that matters once they're in a sprite.
All of the sprites were merged from different instances of the game though, with Davesprite and Jaspersprite being from B1, and Rose and Nep being from B2, meaning it's possible you cannot square a sprite with sprites from the same game- meaning, as most sessions are not supposed to cross scratches like the kids did, the Squared Sprites could be a glitch. With Dave's LE defeating prophecy, and Nepeta's soul-stealing abilities, is it possible that Davepeta truly is the Pimpslayer?
Their absence from every part of the story after collide kind of makes me think they died though. But if the ultimate self junk is true, then our Dave has an infinitesimally small part of Nepeta in him, still making him the Pimpslayer he was always 'born' to be.
Ninjedit: What about ALL that glitchey shit that was flying around during the corrupted cartridge part of the story? Is that not glitchey enough to beat LE? Or the 2nd Disc being scratched? What if that statement about him only being defeated by glitches was a general term used to refer to the whole comic. They glitch and exploit the game SOOO MANY times, and the ultimate goal is to defeat LE right? The kids have, in no particular order:
Survived the scratch Combined the trolls and kids sessions Scratched the second disc Fucked up the cartridge Combined the combined sessions with the B2 session Retcon All the meta shenanigans would probably count as glitches and exploits right?
And even the stuff not directly related to LE could, by way of butterfly effect, lead to his demise, and that could be what the story is referring to. All those glitches, all those exploits, all lead to LE's demise eventually. The final battle itself won't be fought with glitches, but to eventually even reach the final battle you must glitch your way there is the point I'm trying to make I think.
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Post by Gab on Dec 2, 2016 20:29:30 GMT
Because English is basically the sum of his parts. You pull that apart and all your left with are his components, which would be a lot easier to deal with then him. And maybe it doesn't even have to be English himself. Sic a God Tiered Nepeta on the doll. That could be an even more effective course of action. I think you might be overestimating the significance they have on his power, though. They might inform some latent abilities and traits about him, but most of it seems to line up with what he was capable of anyway. So even if Gamzee and AR wind up separated from Caliborn, I don't know how much more vulnerable that would make him. I disagree. That's like saying you can defeat retcon!John by pulling him apart into his component Grandpa and Nanna. Just because all the different parts went into Lil Cal/LE that doesn't mean they're anything but miscible. Lord English could be an entirely unique being, brought about from their fusion, and perhaps that's why he's unafraid of the juju: He never used it himself. I don't have anything to say about this, I just wanted to point out the terrific word usage. I don't recall ever hearing "miscible" before. Lil Cal after the masterpiece is intangible in the void is he not? I always took it as Lil Cal is in the void as pure data without a corporeal form, and when Gamzee summoned him into Dave's dream room he was essentially copy/pasting Cal into the room. So even if you took that version of Cal and ripped the souls out of him he'd still exist in the void. The rules of Jujus say they can't be cloned like that, but it happened with Doc Scratch, where the Souldata was taken from Cal so if Gamzee is copy/pasting Lil Cal's soul data into a brand new Cal it TECHNICALLY isn't the same juju? I don't know. It's tricky trying to identify how all of that works when it makes use of the word void, which may or may not mean different things. The realm between sessions is frequently referred to as the void, but it's apparently empty except for monsters and dreambubbles. If there were lots of cals and pumpkins and other mysterious objects sitting around out there, I feel like you'd see them sooner or later. Which leads us to believe either that void can also not literally refer to this place, or maybe more like you suggest, not exist physically but ephemerally, discreetly, woven into the fabric of nothingness itself. Roxy's powers are suggested to work by literally stealing from this fabric and arranging it into the form of an object, and whatever qualities it possesses. Presumably Cal is sent to and drawn from the void in a similar way in this case, existing as little more than something allegorically comparable to computer code until it is "executed" to manifest in the material plane. Either way though I don't think that means Cal is being copied or duplicated. I've always argued a linearity to its existence, owed to the rule of jujus. Which in theory is hard to prove from an outside perspective, but important for English's existence. Unless he turned into the form we see the instant he merged with 1/2 Gamzee and ARquius, there would be no way for him to grow stronger through successive victories if he's being duplicated from the original source instead of weaving his way through reality one universe after another. Things get tricky with Doc Scratch and the Cal that leads to B2 Jack. My theory is that the doll contains English's soul until it is used as an ectobiolical component to create Scratch. The doll itself is not duplicated, but another viable host is created from its template, and the soul transfers over in the moment of paradoxification. This allows English to manifest through Scratch later, while the doll is repurposed to empower Jack, seemingly a one off, as it appears it is destroyed once and for all. Let's all stop for a moment to consider what this would be like. Okay moving on. That would still be better than LE. But in any case....why not chuck the souls into the House Juju? It is, after all, apparently meant to contain four souls. Not a bad idea, actually. Certainly rather ironic and fitting to some extent. I somehow don't think it'd work though. Suppose, despite the best efforts the kids take to hide it in the void or wherever, it is inevitably found by some treasure seeker or even an acolyte of Lord English to release him. English is then free to go back in time to manipulate events to ensure such an unlikely thing transpires in the first place. Bailed out by his own future self.
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Post by melonlord on Dec 3, 2016 4:31:51 GMT
Let's all stop for a moment to consider what this would be like. Okay moving on.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 3, 2016 6:32:33 GMT
Let's all stop for a moment to consider what this would be like. Okay moving on. Yeeeeeeesssssssssssssss. That was a thing I didn't know I wanted.
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Post by GreatKaiserNui on Dec 4, 2016 7:32:30 GMT
Actual Theory: Maybe LE is going to stay being a thing but new iterations of the universe will continue to be created and Existance will always stay one step ahead.
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Post by melonlord on Dec 4, 2016 13:34:12 GMT
Actual Theory: Maybe LE is going to stay being a thing but new iterations of the universe will continue to be created and Existance will always stay one step ahead. You can't really stay "one step ahead" of Lord English though; he's a time traveler who can manifest in whatever part of your timeline he wants. No matter how many or how fast new universes are created, he'll always be Already Here to fuck them up. That's like. His whole thing.
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Post by GreatKaiserNui on Dec 5, 2016 23:47:17 GMT
Actual Theory: Maybe LE is going to stay being a thing but new iterations of the universe will continue to be created and Existance will always stay one step ahead. You can't really stay "one step ahead" of Lord English though; he's a time traveler who can manifest in whatever part of your timeline he wants. No matter how many or how fast new universes are created, he'll always be Already Here to fuck them up. That's like. His whole thing. He doesn't seem to have gotten into the new one yet so i'm not sure how actual canon it is.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 5, 2016 23:55:16 GMT
You can't really stay "one step ahead" of Lord English though; he's a time traveler who can manifest in whatever part of your timeline he wants. No matter how many or how fast new universes are created, he'll always be Already Here to fuck them up. That's like. His whole thing. He doesn't seem to have gotten into the new one yet so i'm not sure how actual canon it is. Just because we can't see him doesn't mean he's not there. If Alternia is any indication, Lord English himself doesn't hang around in Universes much, but just has his covert minions there to do most of the work. In fact: IDE: The anti-human group seen in the snaps was provoked, if not led by a Handmaid-esque minion.
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Post by melonlord on Dec 6, 2016 3:13:21 GMT
He doesn't seem to have gotten into the new one yet so i'm not sure how actual canon it is. Just because we can't see him doesn't mean he's not there. If Alternia is any indication, Lord English himself doesn't hang around in Universes much, but just has his covert minions there to do most of the work. In fact: IDE: The anti-human group seen in the snaps was provoked, if not led by a Handmaid-esque minion. This, and also: Lord English would have to be a moron to show himself NOW, with the incredibly hard to kill retcon-powered hero still in play. If LE kills John's friends but fails to kill John, John would just go back and retcon the whole thing. LE doesn't want a direct fight with them. Once John's locked away in the house juju, though? All bets are off.
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Post by Gab on Dec 6, 2016 19:35:21 GMT
In fact: IDE: The anti-human group seen in the snaps was provoked, if not led by a Handmaid-esque minion. Interesting. Would these forces be conspiring on all races? Perhaps a similar influence led to convincing the carapacians blowing up the moon without consulting anyone else would be a good idea? Is there some sort of "human superiority" club, or will one form after these events play out? Are consorts entered into this mix at all? More importantly, to what end would all this civil unrest serve? For English specifically, he has no requisites of their rest except to die out in some millions of years, when the sun they're orbiting turns into a red giant. And creating misery for misery's sake seems a little disappointing for so much work and coordination, and isn't really English's style, horrible as he is. This, and also: Lord English would have to be a moron to show himself NOW, with the incredibly hard to kill retcon-powered hero still in play. If LE kills John's friends but fails to kill John, John would just go back and retcon the whole thing. LE doesn't want a direct fight with them. Once John's locked away in the house juju, though? All bets are off. Or convince John into sacrificing himself. Obviously to overcome the god tier revive it'd have to be a heroic death, and the retcon can't save John if John's too busy being dead. Conspiring to put John in a situation where he will feel compelled to do something heroic that risks his life would be a fine way of dealing with him, if he so chose. I guess in theory his ghost would appear in the afterlife. Maybe if English is fast he can wipe him out there too before John can do anything tricky.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Dec 7, 2016 8:54:21 GMT
Just because we can't see him doesn't mean he's not there. If Alternia is any indication, Lord English himself doesn't hang around in Universes much, but just has his covert minions there to do most of the work. In fact: IDE: The anti-human group seen in the snaps was provoked, if not led by a Handmaid-esque minion. This, and also: Lord English would have to be a moron to show himself NOW, with the incredibly hard to kill retcon-powered hero still in play. If LE kills John's friends but fails to kill John, John would just go back and retcon the whole thing. LE doesn't want a direct fight with them. Once John's locked away in the house juju, though? All bets are off. And then things could really get crazy, because there's at least one more Retcon powered John out there somewhere, if not more, who'll still be around even after another John is trapped in the Juju.
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Post by obsidalicious on Dec 7, 2016 9:04:48 GMT
In fact: IDE: The anti-human group seen in the snaps was provoked, if not led by a Handmaid-esque minion. Interesting. Would these forces be conspiring on all races? Perhaps a similar influence led to convincing the carapacians blowing up the moon without consulting anyone else would be a good idea? Is there some sort of "human superiority" club, or will one form after these events play out? Are consorts entered into this mix at all? More importantly, to what end would all this civil unrest serve? For English specifically, he has no requisites of their rest except to die out in some millions of years, when the sun they're orbiting turns into a red giant. And creating misery for misery's sake seems a little disappointing for so much work and coordination, and isn't really English's style, horrible as he is. Well he needs John and co. to go and fight him as seen in the masterpiece. We've seen that Caliborn has already attempted to provoke John, but that just led to John breaking off communication. So by turning Earth C into a shithole and leaving not-so-subtle hints that it was his doing, this may be how he gets the pantheon to rise to the challenge.
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Post by Gab on Jan 7, 2017 20:39:28 GMT
IDE: What if Jude Harley created the original Pesterchum program?
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Post by melonlord on Jan 7, 2017 22:12:26 GMT
IDE: What if Jude Harley created the original Pesterchum program? Huh. That'd be an interesting tie-in, though he doesn't seem to have any programming-like interests. I wonder if Roxy/Mom Lalonde would be a viable candidate, though? I guess it depends on how old the program is. It is kind of interesting to think of what they might do as adults, though, assuming they don't escape from earth or something. Jude seems to be into investigating conspiracies, maybe he'd end up as some kind of investigative journalist? It'd be pretty cool if he were the one that wrote the newspaper article in Dad Egbert's's safe. (I dunno if the timeline on that matches up, though.) Related thought: do you think post-scratch versions of Jude and Joey exist? Technically,it should be impossible, since they're the children of Jake and Ms. Claire, but maybe they're some sort of weird genetic constant like Dad Egbert/Crocker.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Jan 8, 2017 5:47:36 GMT
Related thought: do you think post-scratch versions of Jude and Joey exist? Technically,it should be impossible, since they're the children of Jake and Ms. Claire, but maybe they're some sort of weird genetic constant like Dad Egbert/Crocker. Maybe they'd be Grandma Jade's kids Post Scratch.
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Post by Gab on Jan 8, 2017 20:17:27 GMT
Yeah, my one thought was that some versions, especially the version John uses, already kind of looks 90's style, which means Jude would have had to have made it when he was young.
While he's an alien/conspiracy buff, his perspective will presumably be radically altered upon meeting a bonafide alien and confronting the weird green monsters plot with him. He could end up going into some sort of secret organization type work, ala Shield or the SCP foundation, some sort of covert operation in the know about that kind of thing, like Jude will soon be. Or he could end up going to work for his father's company, Skaianet...
I imagine we'll learn lots more about him if Hauntswitch ever becomes a thing, then it'd be easier to guess at his fate. Assuming that is not simply to be killed by meteors, that is.
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Post by plainWonder on Feb 12, 2017 22:23:36 GMT
IDE/Theory: The 'moment' that Terezi and Karkat shared, when Terezi got close enough to sniff the blood under his skin didn't happen between their waking selves.
Terezi mentioned she went to Dream Karkat's room and watched him (adorabloodthirsty) sleep on Prospit, so if she, like Jade with John, got onto his dream bed/recuperacoon, she could've gotten close enough to smell his blood.
Alternatively, maybe some code of honor stopped her from invading his privacy at a moment when he's defenseless. In that case, maybe Dream Karkat had a near-waking experience, like Dream John when he sleepwalked (sleepflew) out of his room and almost woke up near Jade, and that's when Terezi found out.
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Post by ten11 on Mar 3, 2017 3:39:18 GMT
The only reason the kids can fly is because their god-tiering involved transference to their dreamself's body, which can already fly. If your dreamself dies on a quest bed or your realself dies on a quest slab, you can't fly.
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Post by obsidalicious on Mar 3, 2017 4:58:30 GMT
The only reason the kids can fly is because their god-tiering involved transference to their dreamself's body, which can already fly. If your dreamself dies on a quest bed or your realself dies on a quest slab, you can't fly. John, Jade and Vriska's realself did die on their Quest Bed. Or did you mean doing so without a Dreamself, because then the God Tiering process just doesn't work at all, hence why there's a whole other process described as a backup. And the other scenario also doesn't work. When a Dreamself dies, it doesn't pass its injuries on to the realself. If a Dreamself dies on a Bed, nothing will happen to the realself; you haven't actually died.
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Post by ten11 on Mar 3, 2017 10:54:12 GMT
Here's my headcanon for every possible situation:
1.Real dies on Bed, Dream alive - God-tier, flight. 2.Real dies on Bed, Dream dead - dead. 3.Dream dies on Bed, Real alive - God-tier, no flight. 4.Dream dies on Bed, Real dead - dead. 5.Real dies on Slab, Dream alive - God-tier, no flight, Dream dies. 6.Real dies on Slab, Dream dead - God-tier, no flight. 7.Dream dies on Slab, Real alive - God-tier, flight, Real dies. 8.Dream dies on Slab, Real dead - God tier, flight.
All the kids and trolls are either situation 1 or 8, except Aradia, who is technically 7.
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Post by obsidalicious on Mar 3, 2017 11:30:22 GMT
3.Dream dies on Bed, Real alive - God-tier, no flight. I don't think it would work like that. If your Dreamself dies, nothing happens to the Realself. See Jade and all the A2 Trolls once Bec Noir destroyed their session. Granted we haven't seen a Dream corpse put on a Quest Bed, but I doubt that'd change anything. Given that the Slab is meant to be the backup plan if your Dreamself is dead, I don't think it'd work if your Dreamself was still alive, or if it did, it'd probably just re-use the same process as the Bed. This is what happened to Jake, yet I'm pretty sure he can fly. I see the same Issue as with scenario 3. While your realself is alive, I don't think your Dreamself can trigger any sort of ascension since it's really just a remote avatar of your realself; its condition doesn't represent your actual mortality. Plus, this likely also happened to Jake as the Prospitan funeral probably put his murdered dreamself down in the crypt like Aradia ended up. He didn't ascend then.
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Post by Gab on Mar 3, 2017 21:24:44 GMT
Yeah, dreamselves were frigging weird, bottom line. Like obsidalicious says, I think they are something like a projection from the 'real self,' and aren't typically meant to take over as the main body except in the case of an emergency.
This reminds me of a theory I had about God Tiers though. Specifically, that aside from the fancy duds, flight, and conditional immortality (with or without regeneration of lost limbs), God Tier grants no additional powers to people. John demonstrated the ability to do windy stuff before god tiering, Terezi has Mind powers, and Jane's Lifey thing... I think it's more like a literal sort of awakening that opens up latent abilities they were always capable of to some extent or another.
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Post by obsidalicious on Mar 3, 2017 21:44:36 GMT
Yeah, dreamselves were frigging weird, bottom line. Like obsidalicious says, I think they are something like a projection from the 'real self,' and aren't typically meant to take over as the main body except in the case of an emergency. This reminds me of a theory I had about God Tiers though. Specifically, that aside from the fancy duds, flight, and conditional immortality (with or without regeneration of lost limbs), God Tier grants no additional powers to people. John demonstrated the ability to do windy stuff before god tiering, Terezi has Mind powers, and Jane's Lifey thing... I think it's more like a literal sort of awakening that opens up latent abilities they were always capable of to some extent or another. Don't forget that God Tiers have their own leveling system. Or is that just to placebo people?
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