cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 14, 2016 11:07:28 GMT
I guess. But the theory going around that Calliope's black hole actually destroys all of Paradox Space and the kids escape it kind of changed my perspective on it a little bit, because that means a lot of the loose ends literally get obliterated. It resolves those things in a backwards "cutting the Gordian knot" kind of way. I understand why not everyone would be happy with that idea though, lol. I'm choosing to go into the epilogue with no expectations given how badly I initially got burned when Act 7 was so different from what I was hoping for, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to some clearer answers. But the Universe they created exists in Paradox Space. Destroying Paradox Space would destroy them. Plus, if Paradox Space was destroyed, would it have been so difficult to just show us that? Even just tacking on something like this to the end would've been enough. Yeah that's exactly the problem with a lot of stuff as it stands! If you want to convey the demise of something, aren't you supposed to make it clear that it happened? |
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 11:22:08 GMT
Is that so? Man, that's an interesting and thematically fitting moral. Would have been nice if the story had actually illustrated that, instead of bending over backwards to bring her back to life, regressing her to her self-absorbed abusive self, and then portraying her as a hero in the final animation with absolutely no apparent comeuppance or lessons learned whatsoever, while her more developed counterpart that we spent hundreds of pages getting to know was abandoned by her girlfriend and then presumably fucking died, if not during Terezi:remem8er then almost certainly in the finale. (...) The character that said these things never apologized, never learned anything new, and indeed was never acknowledged by herself, the other characters, or the narrative itself as having done anything wrong. She sure got to look badass doing a heroic anime pose in front of that juju house whatsit, though. That's one way to look at it, I guess. Another way to look at it would be the story giving Vriska chance after chance after chance to learn better, because of believing in people's potential to improve: having the version of her that refuses to learn better turn on the version of her that does learn better with breath-taking savagery, and face a just outcome for this by Andrew keeping her out of Collide and by her part in Act 7 being just enough set-up to give us the plot information we need but not getting to have a big dramatic final battle, in both cases denying her the spotlight which is what she wants more than anything, before falling into the final black hole with LE and being denied entry into the new universe of infinite potential. That looks like satisfying comeuppance to me. |
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 11:30:34 GMT
Watching it again, I noticed that the time circle surrounding the earth before the flash forward or vision or whatever had a IIII instead of a IV. That is a thing that many older clocks have; relic of a European monarch who wanted to throw his weight around claiming to know better than his clockmaker, if I recall the story correctly, which later became a tradition. |
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 14, 2016 11:42:21 GMT
Watching it again, I noticed that the time circle surrounding the earth before the flash forward or vision or whatever had a IIII instead of a IV. That is a thing that many older clocks have; relic of a European monarch who wanted to throw his weight around claiming to know better than his clockmaker, if I recall the story correctly, which later became a tradition. I did not know that. That's a cool bit of trivia. |
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 14, 2016 12:09:28 GMT
The only interpretation of the ending that I've been thematically satisfied with (and it's one I've seen several places) is the interpretation that the white door led outside of Paradox Space entirely, that Calliope's black hole destroyed everything that was, and that now they're starting over. It's white to represent a blank white page. However, I have a question. WHY would the door lead outside of Paradox Space entirely, instead of just to another new universe in the system? For that matter, why did the red door turn white? Was it a reaction to John's retcon powers? Or is there some better explanation that I'm too dumb to see?
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 14, 2016 12:14:23 GMT
The only interpretation of the ending that I've been thematically satisfied with (and it's one I've seen several places) is the interpretation that the white door led outside of Paradox Space entirely, that Calliope's black hole destroyed everything that was, and that now they're starting over. It's white to represent a blank white page. However, I have a question. WHY would the door lead outside of Paradox Space entirely, instead of just to another new universe in the system? For that matter, why did the red door turn white? Was it a reaction to John's retcon powers? Or is there some better explanation that I'm too dumb to see? Yeah it's really underwhelming. Entering the new universe should logically continue the Sburb cycle under the reign of Lord English and his control over destiny while it seems as though that cycle should be broken somehow. But it isn't. Which is what sucks about the ending. I was expecting SO MUCH MORE. At least I was right in doubting that all this can be resolved in the final update when the updates following Collide were going so slowly. |
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Post by nubaris on Apr 14, 2016 12:46:23 GMT
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dldracorex
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 14, 2016 13:02:23 GMT
WAIT NO! I have two more! -Act 7 will destroy the internet. -Homestuck will ascend to the God Tier Waste of Time. This in particular is one of the more hilarious predictions I've seen. Mind if I make it my headcanon?  Of course not! It has been my headcanon since approximately four minutes after I first saw the "Hussie is the God Tier Waste of Space" joke. Even if I did care, that should never stop you. |
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Outis
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Post by Outis on Apr 14, 2016 13:17:50 GMT
I haven't rewatched the ending animation, but the more I think about it (and the more I hear other people talking about their interpretation of what happened) the more I like it. Is this true for anyone else? Every time I think about it/rewatch it, my mental list of things that should've been involved in the ending but weren't grows by a few items. Same It take time to organize everything in mind and the fact that the story isn't necessary told in linear chronology, doesn't help. Sometimes I forget that action take place simultaneously in different time frames. The more I think about it, the more I think that the story, of what happened was already told, long before Act 7. I think that instead of entering the new universe, they were zapped into Caliborn's masterpiece. That means that, during the final battle against LE, they were released from from house juju, by Vriska. They defeated him and then enter the universe. In troll session, after creation of universe, the house didn't change color: LINKIt could be an small argument in favour of this theory. In this case the only thing what's missing is not the outcome of the battle it, but it's course. |
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Post by silavor on Apr 14, 2016 13:36:34 GMT
I guess we can add Calmasis and the swapped King and Queen to the list of foreshadowing elements that never received any payoff.
Unless...
Unless that is what the ending is supposed to be about? Alt!Calliope becomes a black hole while Vriska knocks Lord English into said hole, fusing and shackling the two into a single unified 'entity' crushed into a singularity.
Meanwhile, LE and AC are also the swapped king and queen. Everyone fears Lord English's power like you fear the queen, but in actuality English only has the movement and power of the king. He can only move forward one step at a time, and he can only obliterate whatever is directly in front of his face. His only real threat is that he has a whole bunch of pawns working for him, scattered all across the board, but for some reason everyone treats him like he's the most important piece of them all.
Alt!Calliope is unassuming like the king, just someone sitting on the sidelines until endgame, but in actuality her power is far-reaching and can obliterate anything (and everything), no matter where it hides on the board. That is, of course, assuming her black hole really did shatter all of Paradox Space, or at least the part with all the dream bubbles.
Meh, it still feels like trying to shoehorn meaning onto an ending that was never intended to mean that in the first place. Oh well. I'm trying to like the ending, I really am, it's just... difficult.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 14, 2016 13:37:26 GMT
Iiiiiinteresting.....watch it be just because Hussie forgot.  I keep checking back with the forums and they keep being busted. I guess it's not that big a deal since we have this place, but I'm curious how things are going with that. |
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 14, 2016 14:04:06 GMT
I'm still working on my really long thing on how I feel about the ending, but it's still nice to see how everyone is discussing it.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 14:13:06 GMT
So I just noticed that in the New Earth Utopia that may or may not have actually happened, there's a little weirdness in the buildings: We see Can Town, made of simple primitive metal cylinders as expected. Later, another shot is Rose and Kanaya's "Thanks for Playing", but here the Buildings are much more contemporary and better built; Square, Glass Skyscrapers etc. in a dense Metropolitan city. For a moment I thought it depicted the progression of society, but then it's the scene with all the other kids in the park, and in the background, we're back to the Can Town style buildings, in a ad hoc shanty town looking setup? What does this mean? Did they fall victim to the one opponent they couldn't defeat; Economic Collapse? Is there widespread social injustice as some parts of the world live in luxury while others are in relative squalor? Or is this city's design the work of Rose's OCD Complex Disorder? I noted this, too. My guess would be that Earth is populated both by humans and carapacians (and possibly trolls), and each race builds its cities according to its own taste. Or maybe it's just an artistic quirk in which we are reading too much.
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 14:16:06 GMT
However, I have a question. WHY would the door lead outside of Paradox Space entirely, instead of just to another new universe in the system? For that matter, why did the red door turn white? Was it a reaction to John's retcon powers? Or is there some better explanation that I'm too dumb to see? It's a reaction to Vriska activating the juju. It is the literal manifestation of untrapping the kids from it. Also, just watching it yet again, I think I now understand why Caliborn getting immortality is placed in there at the very end. It's not his moment of triumph. He's going into a black hole. But unlike Vriska, and everyone else, he can't die from it. It's the moment when his own ego dooms him to eternal imprisonment. It is his downfall. |
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 14:16:50 GMT
The only interpretation of the ending that I've been thematically satisfied with (and it's one I've seen several places) is the interpretation that the white door led outside of Paradox Space entirely, that Calliope's black hole destroyed everything that was, and that now they're starting over. It's white to represent a blank white page. A nice interpretation... but it conflicts with the new universe being the place in which Caliborn's life begins. Also, this. Alas, no explanation is offered. For these and many more plot points. |
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Fish
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Post by Fish on Apr 14, 2016 15:16:43 GMT
Ok, fucking wow. I was pretty hyped about this flash, though I had my qualms, but the first page of this thread is UNBELIEVABLY negative. I??? Don't get??? How it's bad??? It's not an Undertale ending, it's a frustrating ending that leaves a lot of questions unanswered. I think the emotion of the flash was exactly what the comic ending needed, however. For both archival and serial readers, it has by page 10027 been a long fucking ride and explicitly tying up all the plot threads that have accumulated (and giving us nothing else to theorize about!) ought to take a backseat to resolving the core theme. As for what actually happened with LE and Caliborn, I perceived it as them being written out of existence just as he circumstantially simultaneously achieved his ultimate power. The kids being present in Universe C seems to preclude the extinction of Earth life, making it a paradox for Caliborn to exist (but a paradox created by retcon powers, as shown by the house turning white - circumstantially simultaneous with Vriska using the juju). He still gets to exist up to a point in the various timelines, because it's retcon powers and not time travel, but Vriska's move with the juju effectively erases his stranglehold on the timeline immediately after he gains his own retcon powers. Vriska wresting the reins of Authorship (or Aurthourship?) from Andrew Hussie at the end is a pretty cool way for her to go out. I'm pretty excited about Aradia becoming basically a death goddess though??? Didn't see her getting sucked into the hole. Kinda sad about all the ghosts though. Wish Jane had brought 'em back. nubaris: He hasn't updated the map yet, either. www.mspaintadventures.com/?viewmap=6Meanwhile, LE and AC are also the swapped king and queen. And a small note but Alt Calliope=AC? So Nepeta is . . . NOT Lord English. |
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 14, 2016 15:22:42 GMT
The only explanation that I can see is that the power of the Juju was to turn the door from red to white. I think the creation of something outside of Paradox Space has to do with the power of the Beta kids combined. John had the ability to rewrite the comic by being able to transport to any point within it, so many the Juju itself is supposed to be raw creation as well. Andrew has said before that the kids four aspects were one that he thought were the "essential building blocks of creation" to some extent. In order to be able to manipulate canon directly, you have to be "unstuck" from it, so then the Juju's true power is to provide that ability, which then translates to being able to vacate paradox Space entirely. There are a couple of leaps in logic there, but that's how I am coming to understand.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 14, 2016 15:26:45 GMT
Ok, fucking wow. I was pretty hyped about this flash, though I had my qualms, but the first page of this thread is UNBELIEVABLY negative. I??? Don't get??? How it's bad??? It's because it was before Hussie edited the news post to inform us that this isn't quite the end and that there will be an epilogue. |
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Fish
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Post by Fish on Apr 14, 2016 15:45:14 GMT
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I think an epilogue is still a Good Idea. And then eventually we may get some ansrews in form of . . . what's the new social media these days? Reddit AMAs? Twitter AMAs?
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Post by spadesnoir1234 on Apr 14, 2016 15:56:11 GMT
So. it looks like I'm the only one who actually LIKED the flash? Like, I think that, overall, it was a nice ending? Sure, it was an opne end —but I think anyone who expected all plot threads to be closed was kinda delusional. Just... I don't know. I'm glad Hussie's making an epilogue and you won't find the ending as sucky, but I don't know. That was gorgeous and I think it's been worth it all these years.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 14, 2016 16:12:52 GMT
So. it looks like I'm the only one who actually LIKED the flash? Like, I think that, overall, it was a nice ending? Sure, it was an opne end — but I think anyone who expected all plot threads to be closed was kinda delusional. Just... I don't know. I'm glad Hussie's making an epilogue and you won't find the ending as sucky, but I don't know. That was gorgeous and I think it's been worth it all these years. Well, the thing is, Hussie likes to solve plot threads, not leave them hanging and forget about them. There's a few plot threads that do seem to have been forgotten about (for example, Jade talked about how she dreamt that she and John would meet Grandpa), but others generally have been resolved with some sort of twist. But here there's so many dangling plot threads it doesn't make sense. |
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Post by sasuke on Apr 14, 2016 16:15:57 GMT
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I think an epilogue is still a Good Idea. And then eventually we may get some ansrews in form of . . . what's the new social media these days? Reddit AMAs? Twitter AMAs? myspace ama's and livejournal upd8's are the way to go m8 |
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 16:42:23 GMT
The only interpretation of the ending that I've been thematically satisfied with (and it's one I've seen several places) is the interpretation that the white door led outside of Paradox Space entirely, that Calliope's black hole destroyed everything that was, and that now they're starting over. It's white to represent a blank white page. A nice interpretation... but it conflicts with the new universe being the place in which Caliborn's life begins.
Except that we already know that the latter statement isn't true. Because the place in which Caliborn's life begins is a timeline in which he talks to Jake about Erisolsprite, and there is no Erisolsprite in the post-retcon timeline. So there is no additional conflict due to the ending. |
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 16:51:16 GMT
Well, the thing is, Hussie likes to solve plot threads, not leave them hanging and forget about them. There's a few plot threads that do seem to have been forgotten about (for example, Jade talked about how she dreamt that she and John would meet Grandpa), but others generally have been resolved with some sort of twist. But here there's so many dangling plot threads it doesn't make sense.
I am happy to take everyone meeting up on the lilypad as resolving that one. The only real unanswered plot threads I see are the sprites, why Terezi is not in the visions of the new world, and Mituna. Considering how much more I've figured out from rewatchings and thinking about it, I'd not be at all surprised if someone figures those ones out soon enough in ways that will be obvious once explained. And I don't feel anyone except me cares all that much about Mituna anyway. (Sorry about the edits. My browser is being weird today and kept cutting the wrong things.) |
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Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 14, 2016 16:54:25 GMT
Here's how I would have solved Vriska's character arc:
>10001-10005: Instead of showing Vriska walking off with the juju chest, I'd have her still on the ground wrestling with Hussie. Meanwhile, (Vriska) sneaks in from stage right. She absconds with the chest, smiling. Vriska, still pinned to the ground, watches in dumbfounded amazement--and while she's distracted, Hussie gives her a giant smooch on the cheek. Then (Vriska) meets up with GO!Terezi over the next hill, takes her hand, and they walk back toward the ghost army.
>Act 7: Instead of Vriska's triumphant march heading up the ghost army, (Vriska) and GO!Terezi join up with Meenah, who is shocked and pleased. Meenah puts her hand on (Vriska)'s shoulder. All three share one last brief moment together before (Vriska) steps forward and releases the juju, killing all of them--but saving Paradox Space in the process.
I know it's Hussie's story and he had the right to end it however he saw fit--and even though he said "draw your own conclusions" it kind of feels like shitting on his work to even write this out. But if it helps me deal, then hey--fix it fic is hardly anything new.
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