|
|
Post by sparkeletran on May 16, 2016 3:04:12 GMT
It can give you time but let's not forget the lesson of Duke Nukem Forever. Sometimes delays can be a bad sign. Not that I have any clue whether it or Undertale is the better analog for Hiveswap; just saying the doom-and-gloom crowd aren't baseless either. well here's the thing (other than what's already been said). even if duke nukem forever was released earlier, it'd STILL have been shitty, if not shittier it's not like the delays made it WORSE by any means, they just didn't manage to fix what was already broken. so in that case, it's sort of a lost cause |
|
|
|
Post by Gab on May 16, 2016 15:58:24 GMT
And honestly, optimistic though I am, I just don't understand why they're handling their PR so poorly. Like, literally all it would take to assuage fans would be like, a small update each month, even every other month, just a little "hey things are going ok," maybe throw in one piece of concept art or something. Give us the name of one of the random trolls they showed or a random new troll sign or anything. Throwing the fans a bone, any bone, would go a long way. This perpetual silence* is only making things worse. I get your point, but we both know there is no force on Earth that can assuage the greedy fan. Give them what seems reasonable, they'll ask for more. Give them what they ask for, they'll demand yet more. It's a losing battle trying to pacify the detractors. But for real, I do see what you mean. And I can accept that they just chose wrong going so silent. Although, I think I understand their approach. After the TOG thing fell through and they realized they weren't in control of production within any capacity to predict its completion date, it was the best option to go quiet, avoid attracting undue attention, until it was done. Or I think so, anyway. Months and months of teaser images would get dull after so long. Anyway, I prefer their focus to be on making the game rather than marketing, and I also like to go into games with as little foreknowledge as possible, so it works out twice. Still, so much as an update explaining this plan wouldn't be out of line, for sure. Still I can't fault them for the choice they made, because it's always hard to come forward to a group of people who trusted you and tell them you failed in everything you said you would do. I certainly never sensed incompetence or ill-will by their lack of communication. There was a lot going on behind the scenes, and they decided to try and sort that out without worrying us by keeping us privy to all the gruesome details. That didn't work out. I guess now they're ready to take another approach, with the youtube channel and all. |
|
|
|
Post by Arashi500 on May 16, 2016 22:07:47 GMT
And honestly, optimistic though I am, I just don't understand why they're handling their PR so poorly. Like, literally all it would take to assuage fans would be like, a small update each month, even every other month, just a little "hey things are going ok," maybe throw in one piece of concept art or something. Give us the name of one of the random trolls they showed or a random new troll sign or anything. Throwing the fans a bone, any bone, would go a long way. This perpetual silence* is only making things worse. I get your point, but we both know there is no force on Earth that can assuage the greedy fan. Give them what seems reasonable, they'll ask for more. Give them what they ask for, they'll demand yet more. It's a losing battle trying to pacify the detractors. But for real, I do see what you mean. And I can accept that they just chose wrong going so silent. Although, I think I understand their approach. After the TOG thing fell through and they realized they weren't in control of production within any capacity to predict its completion date, it was the best option to go quiet, avoid attracting undue attention, until it was done. Or I think so, anyway. Months and months of teaser images would get dull after so long. Anyway, I prefer their focus to be on making the game rather than marketing, and I also like to go into games with as little foreknowledge as possible, so it works out twice. Still, so much as an update explaining this plan wouldn't be out of line, for sure. Still I can't fault them for the choice they made, because it's always hard to come forward to a group of people who trusted you and tell them you failed in everything you said you would do. I certainly never sensed incompetence or ill-will by their lack of communication. There was a lot going on behind the scenes, and they decided to try and sort that out without worrying us by keeping us privy to all the gruesome details. That didn't work out. I guess now they're ready to take another approach, with the youtube channel and all. Again, I really have to wonder what the terms of their paralegal-NDA with TOG stops them from saying. Because if the NDA is liberally worded, it could prevent WP from even mentioning the game in most contexts, regardless of whether or not it reflects on TOG. So they may feel (or even outright be) hamstrung in being able to communicate with the audience about the game in even so innocuous ways as regular communication or even monthly updates about progress. The way it seems worded from my POV would seem to suggest they can only even talk about the game that way to backers, and not the whole audience. And making something private-public by sharing it with your thousands of financial backers is only slightly removed from making it plain ol' public, which they seem reluctant to do. As is, they may have to run EVERYTHING Hiveswap related through their lawyer(s) before being able to do anything or at least find it prudent to do so. And lawyers don't typically work in a timeframe the rest of us would see as reasonable due to legal bureaucracy. |
|
|
|
Post by legendary on May 16, 2016 23:52:20 GMT
It can give you time but let's not forget the lesson of Duke Nukem Forever. Sometimes delays can be a bad sign. Not that I have any clue whether it or Undertale is the better analog for Hiveswap; just saying the doom-and-gloom crowd aren't baseless either. well here's the thing (other than what's already been said). even if duke nukem forever was released earlier, it'd STILL have been shitty, if not shittier it's not like the delays made it WORSE by any means, they just didn't manage to fix what was already broken. so in that case, it's sort of a lost cause I'm sorry but that's just not true! Part of what pulled it apart was the constant moving between studios and engines - if they'd stuck with one, they'd have had a lot more resources to spend on the game itself. Another issue is that it took so long to come out that even after all the engine changes it was still very dated - if it had come out earlier in that general state it would have been more timely and thus a better experience subjectively as well. As has been pointed out, Hiveswap has only done this studio/engine hop once - that's not inherently damning. But I continue to sit happily on the edge of "this is going to suck" and "this is going to be fun", because the pendulum could swing either way. It's just taking its time about it. |
|
|
|
Post by sparkeletran on May 17, 2016 2:53:46 GMT
well here's the thing (other than what's already been said). even if duke nukem forever was released earlier, it'd STILL have been shitty, if not shittier it's not like the delays made it WORSE by any means, they just didn't manage to fix what was already broken. so in that case, it's sort of a lost cause I'm sorry but that's just not true! Part of what pulled it apart was the constant moving between studios and engines - if they'd stuck with one, they'd have had a lot more resources to spend on the game itself. Another issue is that it took so long to come out that even after all the engine changes it was still very dated - if it had come out earlier in that general state it would have been more timely and thus a better experience subjectively as well. As has been pointed out, Hiveswap has only done this studio/engine hop once - that's not inherently damning. But I continue to sit happily on the edge of "this is going to suck" and "this is going to be fun", because the pendulum could swing either way. It's just taking its time about it. I disagree entirely with your first point - I mean, I don't know everything about Duke Nukem Forever, but I'm guessing they didn't literally finish the game and then scrapped it all to give it to someone else. I'd imagine they worked on it a bit, then scrapped that and switched, then a bit more, scrapped that, a bit more, scrapped that... In which case, any of the other points it'd been released at would STILL have been an unfinished game. Sure, if it'd stuck with a single studio working on it, it'd been better... but that's not what happened. It's not the delay that made it switch studios, I'd imagine - the studio switch caused the delays. On being dated - I mean... That's a much trickier subject. What constitutes being dated, in that case? Again, not some trivia master on DNF, but - is it the jokes? The actual gameplay? The graphics? I know the gameplay sure seemed... badly executed, but not inherently dated. The graphics didn't seem like anything super special, and the jokes are, like you said, subjective. Still - I very much doubt the delays made the actual game any WORSE than it would've been if it came out any earlier. It might have made people's opinions on it worse, but... That's a bit of a vicious cycle, isn't it? My point overall is that it's just weird to blame delays for making games worse, it just... doesn't make any sense to me. Being worried about the studio switch or lack of info makes sense, though I agree that just one switch can be recovered from and may even be a good thing, but blaming the DELAYS themselves just seems nonsensical. |
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on May 18, 2016 13:05:17 GMT
I am confused. Seriously, am I the only person who is not pissed about how long it is taking for this game to come out? Like, three to four years is not unheard of when it comes to game dev stuff, especially for a studios first attempt. Hell, Nintendo has been developing the newest Legend of Zelda game for at least as long if not longer, yet no one has been like "Yeah, Nintendo is totally a mess." Sure, maybe people wish the game would come out sooner, but its not like everyone thinks that Nintendo is suddenly incompetent or something. And this is a studio that knows what they're doing and has tons of experience. Sure, you could argue that Trip A titles take longer to produce because they are larger, but even smaller titles can take a long ass time to develop. I know that communication is being all weird and the fact that people invested in the game makes it more personal, but expecting a game to come out within a year or two is pretty insane. I agree. I know that communication is being all weird and the fact that people invested in the game makes it more personal, but expecting a game to come out within a year or two is pretty insane.  Undertale was a GameMaker game, and thus took significantly less work than Hiveswap will/does/did. I mean, it still probably took a lot of work, but not quite as much. Toby said there was no coding involved, for example. Hiveswap also requires a Linux release (thank goodness), which is going to take some time. Plus, Toby didn't have to worry about a comic and putting together a studio. I agree Though im kinda annoyed that they aren't updating their sites. Everywhere else except the kickstarter it says "3D point-and-click adventure game" and there are quite a few dev blogs showing the 3d assets. what pumpkin NYC blog and twitter are both still up Nice  ! (Is that how we're supposed to do this? Heck, do we even still do this?) |
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on May 18, 2016 14:02:16 GMT
Nice ! (Is that how we're supposed to do this? Heck, do we even still do this?) Well, technically the first pwnst gif was originally intended for just really good first posts, not just any first post, but whatever, people have been messing that up for a while now. |
|
|
|
Post by Ariestinak on May 18, 2016 15:19:41 GMT
Hiveswap also requires a Linux release (thank goodness), which is going to take some time. If they do good planning from the start, a Linux release won't be a real problem. I know of larger games that actually get Win/Mac/Linux releases from the same code. |
|
thecrystalship
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
sushi guro
Posts: 174
Pronouns: she/her/hers
|
Post by thecrystalship on May 18, 2016 17:04:59 GMT
Toby said there was no coding involved, for example. This seems impossible, and it would be a waste of Game Maker's resources regardless. You can't do much with just the drag-and-drop tools. He just said that he was a bad coder, which is entirely possible. |
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on May 18, 2016 19:08:10 GMT
Toby said there was no coding involved, for example. This seems impossible, and it would be a waste of Game Maker's resources regardless. You can't do much with just the drag-and-drop tools. He just said that he was a bad coder, which is entirely possible. Ah, sorry, I must have mis-remembered. |
|
thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
|
Post by thedude3445 on May 22, 2016 7:59:54 GMT
I think the game will be very good. However, I think that What Pumpkin's marketing has been positively terrible so far and I just don't understand why they keep everyone in the dark so much. It's the same way across all of their sites and I really wish it wasn't that way but I don't see it stopping anytime soon.
Still, even though the game has gone through three major revisions so far, it still seems like a legitimate passion project for Hussie and I hope it's something wonderful. Will it be? I don't know. But I still have some hope for it, especially with Ryan North and Toby Fox contributing to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gab on May 22, 2016 13:45:57 GMT
This is a totally random remark not related to anything, but last night I wondered if Joey Claire's name is a pun on the word éclair. If so, it may lend some context to her croissant-shaped fake horns in one of the screenshots.
|
|
dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by dldracorex on May 22, 2016 21:58:50 GMT
This is a totally random remark not related to anything, but last night I wondered if Joey Claire's name is a pun on the word éclair. If so, it may lend some context to her croissant-shaped fake horns in one of the screenshots. Éclair is a valid Troll name... |
|
|
|
Post by eerr on May 22, 2016 22:08:51 GMT
I think the game will be very good. However, I think that What Pumpkin's marketing has been positively terrible so far and I just don't understand why they keep everyone in the dark so much. It's the same way across all of their sites and I really wish it wasn't that way but I don't see it stopping anytime soon. Still, even though the game has gone through three major revisions so far, it still seems like a legitimate passion project for Hussie and I hope it's something wonderful. Will it be? I don't know. But I still have some hope for it, especially with Ryan North and Toby Fox contributing to it. To get back the better portion of the money spent, Hussie himself probably signed a No Disclosure Agreement. Basically he is contractually obliged to not dis The Odd Gentleman, with the possible exception of explaining to his kickstarter. Although it always felt to me like the whole thing was some sort of huge joke. I think all along Andrew tried to play it off. |
|
thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
|
Post by thedude3445 on May 22, 2016 22:17:23 GMT
I think the game will be very good. However, I think that What Pumpkin's marketing has been positively terrible so far and I just don't understand why they keep everyone in the dark so much. It's the same way across all of their sites and I really wish it wasn't that way but I don't see it stopping anytime soon. Still, even though the game has gone through three major revisions so far, it still seems like a legitimate passion project for Hussie and I hope it's something wonderful. Will it be? I don't know. But I still have some hope for it, especially with Ryan North and Toby Fox contributing to it. To get back the better portion of the money spent, Hussie himself probably signed a No Disclosure Agreement. Basically he is contractually obliged to not dis The Odd Gentleman, with the possible exception of explaining to his kickstarter. Although it always felt to me like the whole thing was some sort of huge joke. I think all along Andrew tried to play it off. Oh I'm sure that all of the non-progress made in 2013 and 2014 was the big reason there was so little word on the game for so long. However, once they moved away from TOG and opened their studio in NYC, it still didn't improve. I remember in early 2015 they started the website and the Tumblr development blog, but it all went silent after just a month or two. And late 2015 we find out that the NYC studio was closed and the development of the game basically restarted. I know it's a troubled development, but they still haven't been transparent at all, something that is very bad for a Kickstarter project where backers have become extremely cynical in the past four years about many projects (50% in part due to Double Fine's icky practices). The game's already two years past its projected release date and they are still extremely vague about development. I personally am fine with waiting but I know that it's hurting them as a studio. The official website is probably the best example of all: hiveswap.com/ they haven't even updated it since the art style revamp which was six months ago... |
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on May 23, 2016 20:31:34 GMT
While I don't doubt they likely signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement, that would not prevent them from providing information that has nothing to do with the TOG incident.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arashi500 on May 24, 2016 5:36:12 GMT
While I don't doubt they likely signed a Non-Disclosure Agreement, that would not prevent them from providing information that has nothing to do with the TOG incident. It would if the NDA said so, which is not all that strange in the legal world. If it could in any possible way even be construed to just maybe refer tot he incident in any way shape or form, it might be considered a breach of contract on WP's part. But personally, I think WP is just being extra-cautious to the point of it being a fault. It would have to be one extremely ironclad document if they actually HAD to go this far. But I wouldn't discount the possibility. |
|
|
|
Post by melonlord on May 24, 2016 14:18:24 GMT
I'm not sure how a legal document would prevent them from talking about or advertising their game at all. WP seriously needs a better lawyer if those are the terms they got stuck with.
|
|
thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
|
Post by thedude3445 on May 24, 2016 17:34:55 GMT
It would if the NDA said so, which is not all that strange in the legal world. If it could in any possible way even be construed to just maybe refer tot he incident in any way shape or form, it might be considered a breach of contract on WP's part. But personally, I think WP is just being extra-cautious to the point of it being a fault. It would have to be one extremely ironclad document if they actually HAD to go this far. But I wouldn't discount the possibility. I would say that bad lawyerisms and extra-cautiousness could potentially be the reason for the lack of communication, but seeing how What Pumpkin handles everything else, it seems fair to assume it's just bad PR, or a lack of any media manager or social media position at the company maybe. I mean, we got the update on Christmas that showed off the new visuals and disclosed the studio changes and such, but there hasn't been anything officially released to the "public" since around July of last year, where everything still indicates that the game is expected to release in 2016 and will be a 3D adventure title. Updates exclusive to backers once every six months is not going to help the game become a mainstream success. Undertale at least had monthly updates for the entire time it developed (except when Radiation went to China or something like that? Fuzzy memory), and every game project I've ever backed, even if they're years behind schedule, still offers regular updates except the one that ended up probably being a scam. Even if the updates aren't substantial, they should be regular enough to at least let backers know, "yo we aren't spending your money badly." Transparency should always be key. |
|
|
|
Post by Gab on May 24, 2016 23:41:36 GMT
Updates exclusive to backers once every six months is not going to help the game become a mainstream success. Undertale at least had monthly updates for the entire time it developed (except when Radiation went to China or something like that? Fuzzy memory), and every game project I've ever backed, even if they're years behind schedule, still offers regular updates except the one that ended up probably being a scam. Even if the updates aren't substantial, they should be regular enough to at least let backers know, "yo we aren't spending your money badly." Transparency should always be key. Undertale hit mainstream success because it was a good, different kind of game, and a bunch of big name youtubers played it. It attracted a big number of people who didn't know anything about it and weren't following the kickstarter. The state of the development cycle was irrelevant to all of that, whether it was dead quiet or lively. I've been following the development of the fangame Mother 4, which every couple weeks or so has an update of some variety or another to pass the time. The game has been badly delayed and I think been through some interesting behind the scenes developmental overhauls throughout its history, and there is no known release date. I still am more excited about Hiveswap than I am for that though, and that should tell you how much being kept updated really matters. While it's nice, I don't feel the need to be babied with meaningless chatter every couple weeks just so I don't wander away like I'm some kind of attention deficit toddler, and I'm really, really surprised that I appear to be in the minority here. |
|
thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
|
Post by thedude3445 on May 25, 2016 0:50:16 GMT
Undertale hit mainstream success because it was a good, different kind of game, and a bunch of big name youtubers played it. It attracted a big number of people who didn't know anything about it and weren't following the kickstarter. The state of the development cycle was irrelevant to all of that, whether it was dead quiet or lively. I've been following the development of the fangame Mother 4, which every couple weeks or so has an update of some variety or another to pass the time. The game has been badly delayed and I think been through some interesting behind the scenes developmental overhauls throughout its history, and there is no known release date. I still am more excited about Hiveswap than I am for that though, and that should tell you how much being kept updated really matters. While it's nice, I don't feel the need to be babied with meaningless chatter every couple weeks just so I don't wander away like I'm some kind of attention deficit toddler, and I'm really, really surprised that I appear to be in the minority here. Oh yeah, I'm not saying Undertale was a hit because it kept the development active; it kept me excited and I waited like 9 months after getting it to actually play it lol. But it made Radiation look much more dedicated to his project than Hussie is to his, even though I know Hussie is actually putting his heart into Hiveswap. I'd have to disagree about Mother 4, though, because that game looks friggin' amazing. It's been in development for around 7 or 8 years, yeah, but recently they've been a lot better about showing it off than in the past when the site had little info. I'm not saying that the game needs an update every week; even bi-monthly would be fine at this point. But tomorrow is the six-month-anniversary of not a single official word on the game whatsoever and that really strains my patience, personally. |
|
|
|
Post by legendary on May 26, 2016 3:41:34 GMT
Here thedude3445, have some completely unofficial news from a new hiree to rub salt in that wound: scrub it in deep now ya hearFor those of you too lazy to click the link, HONE (one of the contributors for Collide) has been hired to make background art. To appease the haters who might start speculating about additional delays, note that in an adventure game, the assets can easily be 75% or more of the production and that them hiring someone to help them finish that massive amount of work - and of course, that Hiveswap is supposed to release in chapters, which means this may be a good sign. That is to say, that they are nearly wrapped up with their production cycle and that they are in the preliminary phases of episode 2's creation. This may be pointless optimism, but you know what? WP can have it this time. I'm feeling generous. |
|
thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
|
Post by thedude3445 on May 26, 2016 3:53:56 GMT
Any new news is good news so I'll take it, lol. Though the hiveswap.com they link to is still the 3D one...... I'll take this.....
For all my complaining I'm still super excited about this game. I recently went back and watched a demo of the 3D version's intro cutscenes and such, and I thought it was really well done. I'm going to go ahead and assume the 2D version, which looks a lot prettier, will be even better, so I have nothing but optimism for the final product (even if they're doing a bad PR job for it).
Though I completely forgot that Hiveswap is episodic until now. Do we know how many episodes it will be or if there'll be any story interactivity (like choices that can affect the future episodes plot-wise)?
|
|
|
|
Post by RhetoricalKamikaze on May 28, 2016 2:08:43 GMT
Here thedude3445, have some completely unofficial news from a new hiree to rub salt in that wound: scrub it in deep now ya hearFor those of you too lazy to click the link, HONE (one of the contributors for Collide) has been hired to make background art. To appease the haters who might start speculating about additional delays, note that in an adventure game, the assets can easily be 75% or more of the production and that them hiring someone to help them finish that massive amount of work - and of course, that Hiveswap is supposed to release in chapters, which means this may be a good sign. That is to say, that they are nearly wrapped up with their production cycle and that they are in the preliminary phases of episode 2's creation. This may be pointless optimism, but you know what? WP can have it this time. I'm feeling generous. So does this mean that at launch there will only be one episode? Because my pessimism dictates that it'll probably be a short, introductory one. |
|
|
|
Post by legendary on May 28, 2016 4:00:29 GMT
There is very little reason to do an episodic approach to a game unless you intend to release it in episodes.
|
|
! (Is that how we're supposed to do this? Heck, do we even still do this?)
