headwind
Juvesquirt
Posts: 17
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by headwind on Apr 5, 2016 23:33:09 GMT
For those of you who got into the comic after the retcon, was Davekat any less surprising to you than it was to us serial readers? I caught up to Homestuck during the Gigapause so whilst technically not post retcon it was close enough to the end of the pre retcon section of the webcomic that I feel justified in answering. Whilst I tend not to anticipate what ships will occur DaveKat certainly seemed to flow naturally to me. I certainly wasn't expecting DaveKat (but then again I don't really expect any ship), but when it happened I was like 'Oh cool, I approve' and kind of left it at that. I also started with MSPA as a Gigapause reader. My impression about Davekat is that it was already hinted pre-retcon (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=006619 where Karkat conceptualizes it as something in the ♠ quadrant while they fight about drawing either square or phallic shapes). So if did not come as a surprise to me. Those hints are then effectively used during Vriskagram: there one of the first things they do together is Dave peacefully redrawing a floor game board with both square and phallic shapes. So the drawing elements are the same; but now in peace and harmony. From that starting point, a kind of relationship develops; and I can see it had something to start from - even pre-retcon, when they started with some animosity, they ended up as friends anyway. Up to here my immediate feelings on my first watching of Vriskagram. I am not an immediate fan of Davekat. Probably because I liked Karezi quite a bit; I believed that there was a potential there for becoming the healthy relationship that it wasn't. But I have to admit that was already a slowly sinking ship, even pre-retcon; post-retcon, in different circumstances, it was sinking much, much faster, and maybe for the best of everyone involved. I know that Davekat is canon, and that it can be a healthy relationship for both Dave and Karkat, and I see it as already hinted pre-retcon, and evolving naturally post-retcon. (As much as we can guess about its evolution from just a few well chosen Vriskagram images.) Now some recent speculations, mostly paraphrasing and agreeing with things I am reading just now in this forum (such as some good postings by mementovivere, spadesnoir1234, therationaldove, lyla, and others). What's the nature of the Davekat relationship? It's not stated in exact words in canon. Friendly outsiders such as Vriska are mildly puzzled about that; it's not impossible that Dave and Karkat themselves are puzzled too. Perhaps it does not fit the social expectations of trolls and humans alike. Mild pity in that case that they cannot verbalize it, but a relationship does not need to fit a verbal mold to be valid. A more serious problem is that Dave (almost for sure) and Karkat (probably - thanks memento!) feel that they are breaking some taboos with their relationship; their feeling of guilt would be harmful. On the good side, it seems that all of the friends around them are open-minded and would just accept it; on the possibly bad side, their own negative inner feelings count; but, again on the good side, Dave is working on it (according to the natural interpretation of Dave's conversation with Dirk).
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Apr 5, 2016 23:34:34 GMT
When I was speaking about Dave's caginess, I was indeed using his conversation with Dirk about coming out. Sorry if the reference wasn't clear. Obviously, both Karkat and Dave, by being in this relationship, are happier with who they are. it is more of the fear of their peer's reactions that is preventing them from being clear about the whole debacle. Are they objectively happier through this relationship? Dave still has this thing of not wanting to be a hero (he says he's only fighting Jack English because nobody else has secret Welsh powers), just as he had pre-retcon. Karkat had this whole thing of being disillusioned entirely about leadership which he didn't have pre-retcon.
|
|
|
Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 5, 2016 23:44:37 GMT
When I was speaking about Dave's caginess, I was indeed using his conversation with Dirk about coming out. Sorry if the reference wasn't clear. Obviously, both Karkat and Dave, by being in this relationship, are happier with who they are. it is more of the fear of their peer's reactions that is preventing them from being clear about the whole debacle. Are they objectively happier through this relationship? Dave still has this thing of not wanting to be a hero (he says he's only fighting Jack English because nobody else has secret Welsh powers), just as he had pre-retcon. Karkat had this whole thing of being disillusioned entirely about leadership which he didn't have pre-retcon. I would argue that their relationship has little to do with their personal problems outside of the ones that directly relate to the fact that they're in a relationship--i.e. dealing with their sexuality/relationship preferences--nor should they have to. Rose/Kanaya is generally treated as a healthy ship, and yet being in a relationship didn't "fix" Rose's alcholism or Kanaya's problematic thirst for blood. On the other hand, neither Dave nor Karkat are lonely, neither of them are being cheated on with juggalos, and Dave in particular has truly started to examine himself and how he can be a better person by letting go of his old hangups.
|
|
Octa21
Juvesquirt
CT: D --> It's so magnificently depraved.
Posts: 17
|
Post by Octa21 on Apr 5, 2016 23:49:15 GMT
When I was speaking about Dave's caginess, I was indeed using his conversation with Dirk about coming out. Sorry if the reference wasn't clear. Obviously, both Karkat and Dave, by being in this relationship, are happier with who they are. it is more of the fear of their peer's reactions that is preventing them from being clear about the whole debacle. Are they objectively happier through this relationship? Dave still has this thing of not wanting to be a hero (he says he's only fighting Jack English because nobody else has secret Welsh powers), just as he had pre-retcon. Karkat had this whole thing of being disillusioned entirely about leadership which he didn't have pre-retcon. Yes? Well I don't really see what your points have to do with Dave and Karkat's relationship? One can be in a healthy relationship and still have their own problems. It seems clear to me that Dave and Karkat through their relationship are happier than when they were both fighting for Terezi. Dave is clearly coming to terms with his sexuality and Karkat with his quadrant issues. Yes they still have hang ups about certain aspects of their personality but it seems to me that being in a relationship would make them more likely to work through them by having somebody they can talk to about these things rather than bottling them up. I think having someone to draw dick hopscotch and snuggle on the couch whilst watching movies with would make anyone happy So I'd say overall they seem to be happier than they were pre-retcon. Of course that doesn't mean everything is perfect but I don't think that's what therationaldove was implying. Dave and Karkat are happier not perfectly happy about everything.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 6, 2016 1:05:34 GMT
I wanted to say that I never really took the quadrants at face value. That is to say, I didn't think they were necessarily healthy (at least half of them seem pretty unhealthily co-dependent) and thereby a good thing. But you said it better than I could.
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Apr 6, 2016 1:18:24 GMT
I wanted to say that I never really took the quadrants at face value. That is to say, I didn't think they were necessarily healthy (at least half of them seem pretty unhealthily co-dependent) and thereby a good thing. But you said it better than I could. Back in the trolls' arc the quadrants were nothing more than silly overcomplicated bullshit that wasn't meant to be taken all that seriously.
|
|
|
Post by alexffs on Apr 6, 2016 16:56:33 GMT
The thing about the Dave sexuality arc is that it never was a thing from the start. Sure, he has been teased about homoerotic stuff but that stuff could've just as well been regarded as a joke. As far as I know, few people thought "god when is Dave going to come out of the closet and come to terms with sexuality?" before Vriskagram, in contrast to many other character arcs. And now the sexuality thing is a super big deal and was retroactively made so it always was one, which I don't think makes all that much sense. Besides this guy already had a hell of a lot more arc complication stuff than other characters. I'm not going to post in this thread much but here's some two cents regarding the debated ship. about dave's homoerotic tendencies being a joke, i'll say yeah, maybe, but i personally know a lot of people who read through the first three acts and already were hard set on dave not being straight, and that he had some feelings towards john (though i'm not really gonna talk about that). it might have been a joke in the beginning, it might not, we cant really figure that out ourselves, because we didn't write it. but the point is, it makes sense that he could have liked boys all along, because how he acted was very typical of someone insecure about their sexuality. as for it being underdeveloped or too rushed, well, they did spend 3 years on the meteor after all, and a LOT happens in three years, like a lot of character development. i'm definitley dissapointed we didn't get to see more interaction, but we didn't really need to. i can't really think of any relationship in homestuck that wasn't rushed, and since it really isn't a comic about romance, it doen't need a slow buildup or a bunch of shown interaction. we don't know much of what happened on the meteor but after three years on there it's no big surprise people got into relationships. after all, teenagers left for three years with noone but other teenagers would likely turn pretty flirty, maybe even really romantic, from what i know about us. (also i mean hell yes the world needs as many canon gay characters and relationships as possible.) I know people probably already talked about all of this but i dunno, i'm writing this anyway
|
|
|
Post by alexffs on Apr 6, 2016 17:06:42 GMT
You are probably gonna burn me in the stake for this, but I never reall liked the "romance that trascends quadrants" line. It sounds like something Hussie wrote without putting much thought into it and I don't think it really makes sense. I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me. matespritship seems to be more only the romantic and sexual part of a human relationship. it'd be unhealthy to have any relationship in a single quadrant, anyways, especially if one part of the relationship is human. human romance does really include both flushed and pale romance, possibly even black romance, since, idk, "the positive qualities you see deep down in a kismesis also serve as the basis for red feelings towards that person" according to karkat. the last part is just me thinking, based on personal accounts of my relationships. but human romance does at least consist of two of the quadrants. but it doesnt really fit with only those two either, even if you wouldn't put it in one of the black ones as well. so maybe, that mean's it'd just go beyond them? i dunno, just something to think about maybe
|
|
|
Post by ainara on Apr 7, 2016 13:56:45 GMT
When I was speaking about Dave's caginess, I was indeed using his conversation with Dirk about coming out. Sorry if the reference wasn't clear. Obviously, both Karkat and Dave, by being in this relationship, are happier with who they are. it is more of the fear of their peer's reactions that is preventing them from being clear about the whole debacle. Are they objectively happier through this relationship? Dave still has this thing of not wanting to be a hero (he says he's only fighting Jack English because nobody else has secret Welsh powers), just as he had pre-retcon. Karkat had this whole thing of being disillusioned entirely about leadership which he didn't have pre-retcon. Romantic relationships aren't supposed to solved your personal problems. You are supposed to solve your personal problems, with the help/support of people that care about you.
|
|
|
Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 7, 2016 14:26:56 GMT
You are probably gonna burn me in the stake for this, but I never reall liked the "romance that trascends quadrants" line. It sounds like something Hussie wrote without putting much thought into it and I don't think it really makes sense. I mean, what would such a relationship look like? I know, I know —a human romance is the most obvious answer. But isn't a matespritship alredy a human romance? It probably makes sense in some way, but the whole thing sounds weird to me. matespritship seems to be more only the romantic and sexual part of a human relationship. it'd be unhealthy to have any relationship in a single quadrant, anyways, especially if one part of the relationship is human. human romance does really include both flushed and pale romance, possibly even black romance, since, idk, "the positive qualities you see deep down in a kismesis also serve as the basis for red feelings towards that person" according to karkat. the last part is just me thinking, based on personal accounts of my relationships. but human romance does at least consist of two of the quadrants. but it doesnt really fit with only those two either, even if you wouldn't put it in one of the black ones as well. so maybe, that mean's it'd just go beyond them? i dunno, just something to think about maybe I don't know about black, but I can see where ashen fits in. If you're in a relationship with someone, and there's someone that drives them crazy, you might talk them out of how mad they are at them or make an effort to keep the peace between them.
|
|
|
Post by therationaldove on Apr 7, 2016 15:19:45 GMT
Are they objectively happier through this relationship? Dave still has this thing of not wanting to be a hero (he says he's only fighting Jack English because nobody else has secret Welsh powers), just as he had pre-retcon. Karkat had this whole thing of being disillusioned entirely about leadership which he didn't have pre-retcon. Romantic relationships aren't supposed to solved your personal problems. You are supposed to solve your personal problems, with the help/support of people that care about you. Obviously, that is true. However, there is nothing wrong with someone else, by being close to them and talking about your issues, helping you solve those problems. The arguement here is that Davekat, from a narrative and character perspective, falls in line with both Dave's and Karkat's character arcs. Ultimately, those problems need to be solved on their own, but there's is nothing problematic about getting outside help. I mean, I would even go as far as to say, that Dave didn't truly free himself from his brother's shadow until Collide. His relationship with Karkat put him on that right track though, something that was missing from the pre-retcon version of events.
|
|
|
Post by ainara on Apr 7, 2016 15:27:22 GMT
Romantic relationships aren't supposed to solved your personal problems. You are supposed to solve your personal problems, with the help/support of people that care about you. Obviously, that is true. However, there is nothing wrong with someone else, by being close to them and talking about your issues, helping you solve those problems. The arguement here is that Davekat, from a narrative and character perspective, falls in line with both Dave's and Karkat's character arcs. Ultimately, those problems need to be solved on their own, but there's is nothing problematic about getting outside help. I mean, I would even go as far as to say, that Dave didn't truly free himself from his brother's shadow until Collide. His relationship with Karkat put him on that right track though, something that was missing from the pre-retcon version of events.Oh no, I think you misunderstood, I entirely agree with you. I meant that, in response to cookiefonster's post, it's not like solving your non-relationship-related problems is what a relationship is about. So, Davekat can be a thing while Dave still has his hero problem thing and Karkat his leader problem thing. Which is why I said "with the help of people that care about you." i'm not good with english words
|
|
|
Post by therationaldove on Apr 7, 2016 15:35:09 GMT
Oh! Well, sorry for misreading your post! I think your English is very good, by the way. So, it wasn't your writing. More, me not realizing you were responding to someone else that was the problem.
|
|
|
Post by nakAratoo on Apr 7, 2016 21:39:41 GMT
Oh no, I think you misunderstood, I entirely agree with you. I meant that, in response to cookiefonster's post, it's not like solving your non-relationship-related problems is what a relationship is about. So, Davekat can be a thing while Dave still has his hero problem thing and Karkat his leader problem thing. Which is why I said "with the help of people that care about you." i'm not good with english wordsI'm pretty sure the anti-DaveKat argument here isn't that "The relationship is bad because it hasn't fixed their personal problems." Rather, the argument seems to be that the relationship is bad because it has compounded their personal issues, and that there's evidence they might be feeding on each other's tendency to lionize inferiority, possibly making things worse. Karkat was not so disillusioned back in the pre-retcon era. It's very possible his focus on Dave as Terezi pulled away from him has something to do with that.
|
|
|
Post by authorialalchemy on Apr 8, 2016 1:08:27 GMT
I'm kind of disappointed that my favorite ship has indeed sunk hard. I really believed in Dave's heterosexuality and I get annoyed when heterosexual women ship two guys together even if they're not queer, or if only one of them is queer.
That's what stopped me from warming up to the now canon ship. But, to me, it makes sense in retrospect.
Also, it's kind of funny that Karkat/Terezi and Karkat/Dave were rival ships, but then SUDDENLY DAVEKAT.
|
|
The One Guy
Rust Maid
Posts: 1,148
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by The One Guy on Apr 8, 2016 15:17:33 GMT
You know, rewatching part of Collide, I was reminded of something, and with all this talk of transending the quadrants, it has occurred to me that the answer is obvious: Dave star-heart-horseshoe Karkat!
|
|
wheals
Mr. Snoozyprince Mcsleepypants
Posts: 170
|
Post by wheals on Apr 8, 2016 15:26:41 GMT
He'll have to fight clover if he wants THAT.
I'm already shipping Dave marshmallow-rainbow-star Karkat though.
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Apr 8, 2016 15:40:35 GMT
Dave pot-of-gold Karkat might actually be a pretty tolerable pairing come to think of it. Why haven't I considered leprechaun romance like this before?
|
|
|
Post by accipitrineOutlier on Apr 8, 2016 15:41:40 GMT
If the leprechaun pair has 8een so 8lessed, they will 8egin an ela8orate coupling procedure culmin8ting in a lively m8ting jig. The jigs are specific to the charms of course, similar to how different kinds of music lend themselves to various styles of dance.
|
|
|
Post by crossedcaravan on Apr 11, 2016 2:09:50 GMT
What. The actual. Heck.
I didn't think that this ship would be so debatable that it needed to have it own quarantine thread. Are there really that many fans and non-fans of Davekat or are people just obsessed with over-analyzing this ship?
Also, based on this theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/1axgyd/leprechaun_charm_grid_theory_warning_major_wall/
I say Dave Heart-Diamond-Balloon Karkat!
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Apr 11, 2016 2:38:02 GMT
What. The actual. Heck. I didn't think that this ship would be so debatable that it needed to have it own quarantine thread. Are there really that many fans and non-fans of Davekat or are people just obsessed with over-analyzing this ship? Also, based on this theory: https://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/1axgyd/leprechaun_charm_grid_theory_warning_major_wall/ I say Dave Heart-Diamond-Balloon Karkat! Well, some people think Dave and Karkat being in a relationship makes sense, some people (like me) don't. When some people like something and others don't, it's a definite matter of debate. And I know how absurd it is for one particular pairing to be so controversial but it's really a lot more polarizing than any other ship. I mean, how many people think John and Roxy are very unfit for each other and shouldn't be in a relationship?
|
|
partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
Best Fraymotif
Posts: 126
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by partymember57 on Apr 11, 2016 2:46:37 GMT
I still can't decide if I'm even ok with DaveKat or not. I think I was against it, then I was ok with it, now, I'm not sure. My relationship with the pairing itself seems to have also transcended the quadrants.
|
|
|
Post by badatnames on Apr 11, 2016 20:07:17 GMT
I mean, how many people think John and Roxy are very unfit for each other and shouldn't be in a relationship? *Raises hand*
|
|
cookiefonster
Dead
TAKE US THEIR FRESH JIMMY
Posts: 723
Pronouns: he/him/his
|
Post by cookiefonster on Apr 11, 2016 20:49:50 GMT
I mean, how many people think John and Roxy are very unfit for each other and shouldn't be in a relationship? *Raises hand* Huh, interesting. Is it because you think Roxy should learn she doesn't need a boyfriend to be happy? That's a fairly popular argument against the ship.
|
|
|
Post by badatnames on Apr 12, 2016 2:50:24 GMT
Huh, interesting. Is it because you think Roxy should learn she doesn't need a boyfriend to be happy? That's a fairly popular argument against the ship. ...Yeah, sure, that seems intelligent and well thought out. Totally not because I just happen to ship them with different people.
|
|