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Post by plainWonder on Apr 14, 2016 20:19:20 GMT
Ho boy have I gotten a lot of theories to get out of my system already. Both of new things and old. 1) Jade's informative nap when she died, was the one showing Doc Scratch' origin. That's how she knew they all got SUCKERed into creating the Green Sun. 2) Unlocking the Ultimate Reward is cause for a timeline split: it creates a timeline in which you may enter the next universe, and another in which some indeterminate force stops you. This also creates a timeline split inside the universe. For instance, the B1 kids came from a timeline in which a version of the trolls were gods in ancient times. While Caliborn and Calliope come from a timeline in which no version of the kids or carapaces re-terraformed B2 Earth, leaving it barren and only bearing the marks left by B2 Dave... and the curtain thingy by Andrew somehow ended up there, too. 3) The clockwork majjycks and Skaia's well of infinite potential are one and the same. Bilious Slick is therefor momentarily invulnerable, as it shoots up into Skaia. In fact, the Furthest Ring burns on the majjycks too. This explains why the cracks glow in the technicolor colours, and why John glowed similarly while resurrecting. 3) Lord English' tale is an ouroburos. It began in Universe C, but every universe he visited after he received the boon, chronologically comes BEFORE it. In the end, he is dealt with at the precise moment of creation of his home universe, as well as the undoing of the Green Sun (and, perhaps, the whole of the Furthest Ring). 4) Terezi chose not to enter the new universe and instead teleported to Vriska. Yes, she came through the door opening in the plothole. She survived LE's clockwork blast due to momentary immortality or something. Then she proceeds to make LE's soulparts remem8er who they used to be, further weakening him as Gamzee and Arquius disappear from his genetic makeup. 5) When Karkat ran to face of against Lord English, he was shouting "FOR ALTERNIA!!!", in reference of C.S. Lewis' Narnia chronicles. 6) Dirk's katana was only breakable because the juju breaker had touched it.
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randomwriter
Your shit is wrecked
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Post by randomwriter on Apr 14, 2016 20:37:45 GMT
I have a few theories as well.
1. The entirety of Homestuck is being narrated by the Mayor, in the future, as some sort of how I met your mother story. It explains why much focus is given to Can Town in the epilogue. And WV's a cloudcuckoolander, so he'd likely be prone to random tangents upon the story.
2. John and the others eventually after a long time, at the bidding of Calliope, during their happy ending, warp to Caliborn, and in an attempt to redeem him, offer him the same happy ending. This leads to the masterpiece.
3. Lord English is still alive, in the black hole, unable to escape, and only able to comprehend how he got there in the first place until the end of time.
4. Jack Noir is easily forgiven by WV, gains a black relationship with PM, while WV somehow gets one with MS Paint. He is then given the most important job ever, being the law, and doing all of can town's paperwork, begrudgingly.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 21:31:41 GMT
3) Lord English' tale is an ouroburos. It began in Universe C, but every universe he visited after he received the boon, chronologically comes BEFORE it. In the end, he is dealt with at the precise moment of creation of his home universe, as well as the undoing of the Green Sun (and, perhaps, the whole of the Furthest Ring). I think this is more than a theory: it's an actual fact (although "he is dealt with at the precise moment of creation of his home universe" is more of a circumstantial simultaneity than a temporal one).
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partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 14, 2016 21:47:24 GMT
I have a few theories as well. 1. The entirety of Homestuck is being narrated by the Mayor, in the future, as some sort of how I met your mother story. It explains why much focus is given to Can Town in the epilogue. And WV's a cloudcuckoolander, so he'd likely be prone to random tangents upon the story. 2. John and the others eventually after a long time, at the bidding of Calliope, during their happy ending, warp to Caliborn, in an attempt to redeem him, offer him the same happy ending. This leads to the masterpiece. 3. Lord English is still alive, in the black hole, unable to escape, and only able to comprehend how he got there in the first place until the end of time. 4. Jack Noir is easily forgiven by WV, gains a black relationship with PM, while WV somehow gets one with MS Paint. He is then given the most important job ever, being the law, and doing all of can town's paperwork, begrudgingly.I love that idea, the ultimate ironic punishment. Here's my theory on the status of Lord English and the new Universe, which I just call Universe C: If he wasn't outright destroyed, then he was definitely cut off from being able to harm Universe C/the heroes in anyway. That shot with Aradia watching the black fragments of Paradox Space sucked away makes me think that the black hole actually made a giant hole in reality. So visually speaking, there's a giant white circle just sitting the void. Inside is LE. Because the Green Sun is destroyed, and because it's a space "outside" reality, he can't leave. Even if Vriska, the dream bubbles, and everyone else there died, LE's immortality would be what confines him there. He'll be in there forever, unable to leave.
And when we saw the red "victory house" turn white, that marks it as a portal to "escape" the story. Remember when Calliope talked about escaping "colours and mayhem?" well, we sort of get that LE's deal is a bunch of flashing colors, and that his weakness is white. The completed Genesis Frog is white, which contrasts the clear one the trolls made. But there's another thing that's white. The plot juju that allowed John to escape canon. And now all of Universe C is either outside of canon, free from LE, or LE is locked out of canon, unable to affect the story with his temporal inevitability.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 21:59:29 GMT
Ok, time for some theorizing; these are the possible interpretations I see for the MAIN PLOT (protagonists vs. Lord english and related timeloops); I'll leave all the subplots for another time. - The door on the final platform leads to Caliborn, being (somewhat) a counterpart of the House Juju; all 8 kids jump to him, Masterpiece events follow, 4 of them gets trapped in the Juju, are released in front of Lord English in the Furthest Ring and defeat him; they somewhat manage to come back to the new universe and live happily there after.
- As above, but they lose against LE or defeat him but die in the process (f.e. being sucked in the black hole with him); the vision of happy life on Earth was only a vision and never got realized.
- The door leads to the new universe, where they all live happily for some time, until they decide for some reason to jump to Caliborn and ambush him; same outcome as above; in the end they defeat Lord English, or maybe not; survive, or maybe not; come back to Earth, or maybe not.
- The door leads to the new universe, where they all live happily forever (minus non-immortal characters, of course); the kids who go to fight Caliborn come from a different timeline, possibly one of the many splinters created by John while retconning; the most common one is the hypothetical timeline starting after john retrieved the ring but before he followed the rest of Terezi's instructions: in this timeline Aranea was never able to influence real-life events, but the rest stayed the same (Vriska dead, Terezi full of self-loathing, Gamzee free to wreak havoc, lots of drama, etc.); the timeline starting here looks promising (it contains another John about to go see Typheus), but it's not a possible candidate, because it's post-Game Over and several critical people are already dead.
- All of this doesn't matter at all, because by going through the door the protagonists were able to escape the narration altogether, and they are now free to live their lives outside the boundaries of a fixed story; very poetic and meta (and thus liked by many), but also quite inconclusive if you want to understand what actually happened; which could very well be a limit when you're approaching a work like Homestuck. But still.
Did I forget something? Can any one of these theories be proven definitely wrong?
Edit: the second theory can in fact be proven wrong; if the kids die without entering the new universe, they wouldn't be able to deposit Earth in it, which would prevent Caliborn from existing.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 22:09:45 GMT
Also, the ending of Homestuck allows some additional insights into the whole retcon business; I've posted about this elsewhere, so I won't repeat myself here; please feel free to reply in the other thread if you so wish.
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Post by NorthernDruid on Apr 15, 2016 0:02:48 GMT
Ok so here's an elongated thought about the house juju and how it turns into a large-size structure resembling the victory platform door leading to the ultimate reward. (dunno if anyone else thought about this or not)
So, Caliborn obtains it at the very end of his solo session right? A dead session. And his reward for the path of the conqueror was supposed to be to get the power and ability to run around destroying shit for as long as he wanted IIRC (too late for me to dig up all the exposition and sift through it right now, I might do so in the morning if no one else bothers).
The onlything is... how? So he wins the unwinnable unplayable session, is rewarded with absolute immortality and incredible power to go with it. As well as an obscenely powerful juju.
But how the heck is he getting out of the session? How's he getting to somewhere there's anything left to destroy?
If you play a normal session and win, then you get to go on into the universe you created. If you lose then there's plenty of ways to get back to a now post-apocalyptic planet and aid in rebuilding it. And in either case there's enough stuff in the incisphere (in theory anyway) that you could just live there.
Even a void session has no worse punishment than not being able to create a new universe, and if no apocalypse happened then it might even be easier for them since they can find their way back to an unmolested home planet.
Now failing a dead session on the other hand leaves you with nothing. There's nowhere to go back to, you brought your home planet with you after all. And I imagine the planets are a lot less interesting than those of a normal session.
But for winning it... You get all these awesome things... glowing rainbow flashy eyes, incredibly powerful toys. And still nowhere to go?
What if that's the real purpose of the house juju. Not to be a weapon, but rather, a portal. What if by sucking in the Beta kids the house juju was made into their victory platform. Only reacting to LE because it's his door.
It's not just randomly that it turns into a victory platfomr door. And it can mean almost anything. Maybe it's a way to escape to somewhere LE can't reach now that the furthest ring is being sucked into the green sun black rose hole, maybe it's a door for the victims of it's first form to exit from, maybe it's something else.
But maybe the original purpose of such a juju is for it's owner to be allowed entry into some universe, from which they can move easily from universe to session to universe through the game's various back doors. Using their won power for whatever purpose someone who chose the path of the conqueror would.
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partymember57
Gadabout Pipsqueak
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Post by partymember57 on Apr 15, 2016 20:32:09 GMT
Theory: since Shrek is all white in Collide, he's a guardian of Eridan from an alternate timeline.
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Post by plainWonder on Apr 17, 2016 8:37:04 GMT
4. Jack Noir is easily forgiven by WV, gains a black relationship with PM, while WV somehow gets one with MS Paint. He is then given the most important job ever, being the law, and doing all of can town's paperwork, begrudgingly. I theorize he's still thrown in jail for his crimes and has to do all of the paperwork there, like B2 Jack. Let's assume WV and PM don't allow him to receive gifts from CD and DD, if they even came along. Plus, all the jailors should be Dersites, since they wouldn't be too kindly on him if he misbehaves, unlike B2 Jack. It would be pretty rewarding if Jack's kept in check by alternate ARs, come to think of it. But maybe the original purpose of such a juju is for it's owner to be allowed entry into some universe, from which they can move easily from universe to session to universe through the game's various back doors. Using their won power for whatever purpose someone who chose the path of the conqueror would. Bolded for emphasis since it ties into a thought of mine. What if the orientation of the house is meaningful? When it's oriented in the traditional way, it represents going in through the front door. But then you're in the house. You're homestuck. Flipping the sprite, the front door becomes the back door. Back doors, in games, are ways to get rewards more easily. The trolls' door on the lilypad platform was still oriented in the traditional way. It was colored in their universe's color, too. They wouldn't have escaped if they opened that door, they might've just ended up back on a post-apocalyptic Alternia. They weren't ready yet to seed a new universe. If they had been, it would have looked like this. (EDIT: Fudge, no, it would have looked red, like the colour of universe B / the Genesis Frog. I'll edit that later today. EDIT2: Done! Wow, that Tumblr post has taken off like a Boeing 747!) The kids, likewise, escaped from their green session to a universe where SBURB is represented in the second way, flipped. It's their way out of being Scratched. Still, when the door first appears on the lilypad platform, it's the traditional SBURB logo, but coloured red. It would've led back to Universe B2. It was only when it flipped that they could sneak out the back door. Meanwhile, in the dreambubbles, the juju transforms into a white traditional SBURB logo. The door that opens doesn't lead to escape, it leads to entrapment, for Lord English, hopefully. Lastly, remember how Roxy entered Calliope's bubble? She went into the observatory door... and came out through the front door on the green SBURB logo.Signifying that not only Calliope was stuck in the afterlife, hidden in her secluded bubble... But also, that ultimately Roxy would be her way out.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 17, 2016 11:33:57 GMT
1) Jade's informative nap when she died, was the one showing Doc Scratch' origin. That's how she knew they all got SUCKERed into creating the Green Sun. You know, I've been meaning to address this. Before Remem8er, readers assumed that if you died on a Quest Bed you merged with your dreamself. After, it seemed like actually, the realself just dies and then the dreamself takes over. But that doesn't make sense given what Jade said. She said she had one last informative nap when she was dead for a few minutes, so that would have to mean she and Jadesprite did merge.
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Post by The Paradoxical Insurgent on Apr 17, 2016 18:56:01 GMT
When one dies on a Quest bed/slab, regardless of which self dies, the dreamself becomes the sole self left. Leaving the normal self dead.
The bodies don't merge, but the memories probably do, if for whatever reason your dreamself has different memories.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 17, 2016 22:34:53 GMT
When one dies on a Quest bed/slab, regardless of which self dies, the dreamself becomes the sole self left. Leaving the normal self dead. The bodies don't merge, but the memories probably do, if for whatever reason your dreamself has different memories. Uh...I don't think anybody was arguing the bodies merge (I don't even know what that would look like or how we'd know that was what happened) but whether the two personalities and/or sets of memories merged or if one personality just took over for the one that was now dead.
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Post by The Paradoxical Insurgent on Apr 17, 2016 23:22:43 GMT
When one dies on a Quest bed/slab, regardless of which self dies, the dreamself becomes the sole self left. Leaving the normal self dead. The bodies don't merge, but the memories probably do, if for whatever reason your dreamself has different memories. Uh...I don't think anybody was arguing the bodies merge (I don't even know what that would look like or how we'd know that was what happened) but whether the two personalities and/or sets of memories merged or if one personality just took over for the one that was now dead. Dogtier!Jade has the memories of the realself along with those of Jadesprite so it seems that is true.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 18, 2016 0:00:38 GMT
Uh...I don't think anybody was arguing the bodies merge (I don't even know what that would look like or how we'd know that was what happened) but whether the two personalities and/or sets of memories merged or if one personality just took over for the one that was now dead. Dogtier!Jade has the memories of the realself along with those of Jadesprite so it seems that is true. Yeah, that's what I was getting at.
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Post by ForestGardener on Apr 18, 2016 0:23:30 GMT
I hold out hope that Act 7 is Hussie trolling us really hard, and that the epilogue will finish the scenes that were cut off by showing what went wrong.
I'm quite sure others have already said this.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 18, 2016 0:50:41 GMT
I hold out hope that Act 7 is Hussie trolling us really hard, and that the epilogue will finish the scenes that were cut off by showing what went wrong. I'm quite sure others have already said this. What's really funny in an 'it's only funny in hindsight' way, is that if those of us who believe that are right, the archival readers will have no idea the pain we had to suffer before the 'real' ending came out. Them: 'Why do y'all twitch when I mention Act 7? I thought it was a beautiful flash!' Us: *shudder*
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Post by plainWonder on Apr 18, 2016 20:34:37 GMT
What would cause the limeblood trolls being eradicated as a caste? What are traits the Alternian and Beforan cultures both would deem unruly and unfit for trolls? I would say: - Chucklevoodoo immunity - trolls that can’t be scared can’t be ruled
- Introversy - trolls that don’t speak their mind can’t be censored
- Passivity - trolls that don’t act don’t contribute to the empire
- Solitude - trolls that live alone don’t contribute to the gene pool
- Asexuality - again the gene pool thing
Limebloods don’t have to have had really magical powers to have been dangerous to troll society. Nor do they need to have shared the jadebloods’ ability to walk in the sunlight, the lower castes’ psionics, the tyrianbloods’ Vast Glub immunity or the abnormal strength of the Zahhaks.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 18, 2016 20:43:39 GMT
Figured I would post this here since I'm pretty proud of it, and it got mostly overlooked in the 4/13 update discussion thread.
I have come up with a new interpretation of the finale that satisfies thematic concerns while simultaneously making sense plot-wise. The central question is this: why did the door turn white? The answer is this: because it and the juju exist for the same reason. The juju/LE was encoded into Paradox Space/SBURB for a reason: to provide an eventual way out. Defeating Lord English served as a sort of test for the kids and trolls; when it was passed, the door turned white, allowing them to escape Paradox Space once and for all.
That made perfect sense in my head, but feel free to ask questions if I didn't explain myself very well.
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Acamaeda
Nipper Cadet
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Post by Acamaeda on Apr 19, 2016 20:11:05 GMT
One interpretation is that Hussie wants us to make the ending, in which case I give you Project Omega!
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Post by humbleElitist on Apr 21, 2016 2:34:14 GMT
Theory: since Shrek is all white in Collide, he's a guardian of Eridan from an alternate timeline. Apparently it actually was based on some old jokes about Shrek being Eridan's lusus. So, uh, apparently that was, pretty much exactly what was intended by shrek being there?
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 21, 2016 2:37:31 GMT
What would cause the limeblood trolls being eradicated as a caste? What are traits the Alternian and Beforan cultures both would deem unruly and unfit for trolls? I would say: - Chucklevoodoo immunity - trolls that can’t be scared can’t be ruled
I've always been partial to this reason.
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Acamaeda
Nipper Cadet
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Post by Acamaeda on Apr 22, 2016 17:09:13 GMT
Ipgd confirmed that the meta ending theory is wrong:
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 22, 2016 17:41:49 GMT
1. Maeda, I think you should make one post and then maybe provide links to it? Reposting the same post just on different threads could be considered spamming...
2. I already mentioned my opinion of this on the Comdisc thread, but basically: IPGD is just a person with a certain opinion on the ending and is reminding people that her reblogging or liking a theory, doesn't mean it's now a Cold Hard Fact. This also means that her thinking the theory is ridiculous doesn't debunk the theory either. Her opinions could totally be off-base with the "truth", despite being close to Hussie.
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Post by plainWonder on Apr 22, 2016 20:25:54 GMT
Also, that she says not to take her liking it as some Higher Truth, doesn't mean that the Higher Truth is now that the thing she liked is Not True.
---
Earth in Universe C won’t have a First Guardian.
But maybe Calliope grows up to be its Guardian Cherub.
I wonder if she’d grow wings, not having predominated the natural way.
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Post by tentacleTherapist on Apr 22, 2016 20:49:30 GMT
When one dies on a Quest bed/slab, regardless of which self dies, the dreamself becomes the sole self left. Leaving the normal self dead. The bodies don't merge, but the memories probably do, if for whatever reason your dreamself has different memories. Uh...I don't think anybody was arguing the bodies merge (I don't even know what that would look like or how we'd know that was what happened) but whether the two personalities and/or sets of memories merged or if one personality just took over for the one that was now dead. Given that we did not see the Remem8ering ghosts for that long, maybe the time between death and god-tiering always puts the individual through an intermediary stage of being in the Dream Bubbles?
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