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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 12, 2016 5:05:53 GMT
You know, something just occurred to me. Collide is like an opposite Game Over: Everything's going right instead of wrong. Game Over was retconed out of existence by John; what if the static at the end of Collide was representing that it's getting retconed by Lord English? Collide is detrimental to the characters' development regardless. I am almost certain they are about to be punished for using a psychotropic game powerup to Trickster Mario their way to the finish, and for simply killing or defeating all of their enemies in the session, just as the trolls were punished for killing all of their Denizens and failing to complete their quests. Anything else would be almost directly contradictory to the moral espoused by Hussie earlier in the comic. I agree, although I don't know if punished is the way I'd put it. After all, if that frog theory is true, they're doing exactly what the game wants them to do so that there are no paradoxes. I think the problem is that S***b's reward for doing so would be sort of like the Handmaid's: we get what we want, you get to die. Enjoy!
I don't know, it's just that I've been thinking about how the comic seems to have set up a weird distinction between cheating and exploiting aspects of the game like glitches and loopholes. The kids, like the trolls, are now just rushing through, killing everything in sight and racing straight for the reward. This is being portrayed as a course of action that can only result in something ominous. However, the original escape from their sessions (via the Green Sun mission, Sollux's sacrifice and the exodus to the realm of the Yellow Yard) is portrayed as an overall positive thing, even if it didn't work out the way any of the characters expected. It forced them to work and grow, but couldn't it be called cheating too, or at least bending the rules? I think the main reason Vriska's style of playing is not going to work is not (or at the very least not only) because they'll be punished for doing so, but because you can't out cheat Lord English. It's the way he's always done things (killing his co-player before the game even starts, always being there no matter what, having everything handed to him) and he can't be outdone. You cannot hope to best Lord English in a cheat off, he is simply the best there is and the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. The kids can't beat Lord English or S***b by either's own game, so they have to play a different game if they want to win. Ironically, they have to pull something like Caliborn did in his chess game against Calliope. Not cheating...but not playing how the game was strictly meant to be played either. It's just that they can't figure out how to do that without doing a little growing as people. Well, that's my overly lengthy take on it anyway. On a completely different note, still thinking about that frog theory, here's an idea for Act 7 that will horrify everyone: what if it's partly a game where we control the frog the beta kids become, and have to lead it to little Jade?
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wheals
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Post by wheals on Apr 12, 2016 12:39:54 GMT
A last-minute theory: maybe Gamzee actually has the Ring of Life somehow, which is how he keeps not dying despite everything. At some point he loses it in Caliborn's session, whereupon Caliborn finds the Ring of Void. This explains why he dies only in the Game Over timeline (since he gives the ring to Aranea) and in the masterpiece (since he lost the ring).
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 12, 2016 12:51:11 GMT
A last-minute theory: maybe Gamzee actually has the Ring of Life somehow, which is how he keeps not dying despite everything. At some point he loses it in Caliborn's session, whereupon Caliborn finds the Ring of Void. This explains why he dies only in the Game Over timeline (since he gives the ring to Aranea) and in the masterpiece (since he lost the ring). It's still uncertain whether Gamzee really died in Game Over. He was more likely divided in two halves. Kinda like that SpongeBob episode where he gets torn in half by a huge gorilla.
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wheals
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Post by wheals on Apr 12, 2016 13:54:29 GMT
Unlike sponges, though, clowns are not noted for their ability to live after being bisected.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 12, 2016 13:59:26 GMT
You know, something just occurred to me. Collide is like an opposite Game Over: Everything's going right instead of wrong. Game Over was retconed out of existence by John; what if the static at the end of Collide was representing that it's getting retconed by Lord English? Collide is detrimental to the characters' development regardless. I am almost certain they are about to be punished for using a psychotropic game powerup to Trickster Mario their way to the finish, and for simply killing or defeating all of their enemies in the session, just as the trolls were punished for killing all of their Denizens and failing to complete their quests. Anything else would be almost directly contradictory to the moral espoused by Hussie earlier in the comic. Don't really see it that way, a happy ending is not detrimental to the character's developments, it is going to happen sooner or later. They are fairly developed after Intermission 5 and are likely not getting much more. I want something bad to happen because of plot, not because I think we need another tragedy for character development to happen.
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Post by Ariestinak on Apr 12, 2016 14:28:06 GMT
Unlike sponges, though, clowns are not noted for their ability to live after being bisected. Clowns are also generally not known for their ability to live after being shot for 30 seconds straight. Remember that this is Homestuck.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 12, 2016 14:32:58 GMT
Collide is detrimental to the characters' development regardless. I am almost certain they are about to be punished for using a psychotropic game powerup to Trickster Mario their way to the finish, and for simply killing or defeating all of their enemies in the session, just as the trolls were punished for killing all of their Denizens and failing to complete their quests. Anything else would be almost directly contradictory to the moral espoused by Hussie earlier in the comic. Don't really see it that way, a happy ending is not detrimental to the character's developments, it is going to happen sooner or later. They are fairly developed after Intermission 5 and are likely not getting much more. I want something bad to happen because of plot, not because I think we need another tragedy for character development to happen. Eh, it's both for me. I think something bad should happen because the kids won their battles so easily, just about everything went according to Vriska's plan, things have been incredibly ominous up to this point, and as you've pointed out, there's no reason right now for the kids to want to ambush Lord English. I also think something else should happen because these kids just don't feel like they're at the end of their developmental journeys yet, and it feels wrong that they should (or could) end the game and the story without growing a little more. Rose and Dave just seemed to have given up on their quests, and the Alpha kids haven't been shown sparing them a thought. That just feels off, especially since the trolls rushing through their quests or blowing off parts of them had been portrayed as a big reason why their session ended up like it did. I was only musing before, but...I don't know. I'm getting closer and closer to believing something really awful is going to happen, that Act 7 is going to end on an incredibly depressing and/or shocking note and Act 8 is going to be a thing. Or there will be something that functions as an Act 8 without actually being called that, maybe.
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quixoticTokki
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Post by quixoticTokki on Apr 12, 2016 16:45:00 GMT
I was only musing before, but...I don't know. I'm getting closer and closer to believing something really awful is going to happen, that Act 7 is going to end on an incredibly depressing and/or shocking note and Act 8 is going to be a thing. Or there will be something that functions as an Act 8 without actually being called that, maybe. I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is going to be the case. If what they say is true, and Act 7 is really only 2 pages, there is no way I can see the ENTIRETY OF HOMESTUCK being wrapped up in such a small window - unless we get like an hour long flash or something, but considering how quickly Andrew finished Act 7 I'm guessing that isn't the case? But who knows. Anyway I have a feeling this isn't going to the end of everything quite yet. Maybe the end of "Homestuck" as some people have said - whether that means becoming "unstuck from canon", "Homefree", Homestuck 2.0, or other theories I've seen thrown around, I don't know. But I'm excited to find out.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 12, 2016 16:48:00 GMT
I am reposting my Trickster Mario speech from the MSPA forums here for reference, so that I can use it to bolster a final theory post before the end: The retcons could totally be used for something other than bringing out Mrs. Controversial, like retconning Lord English out of existence or something. What if the retcons changed to convince Aradia to join the meteor crew? The person you replied to mentioned her so that might be neat. Someone draw up "Aradiagram", now. The retcons COULD have been used to do that, but I feel like you're not looking at it from a storytelling perspective... The retcons are there ONLY to serve the narrative and the moral, what you're suggesting is an entirely different story. Okay let's look at it like this. When is the retcon power FIRST introduced? Right after John refuses to bring old Vriska back to life with the Ring of Life, ostensibly because of her mistakes, despite the fact that she's only doing questionable things to try and make up for her mistakes in the past, and earn the respect from others that she is incapable of giving to herself. So when the retcon power is introduced IMMEDIATELY afterwards, it's really obvious what's going to happen. John is eventually going to use those powers to literally erase Vriska's mistakes and create some kind of alternate timeline where Vriska never learned from those mistakes, and at first it will seem like it was the right thing to do because she's "perfect" and everything is "perfect", but then it turns out that really the moral is to learn from your mistakes or else you never grow as a person, and then they're going to need the old Vriska back when the new one tears reality a new one. And this was years before Hussie finally got around to it, I think his story actually suffers from beating around the bush too long and then people forget what's happening. But anyway, it's anime rules. That's just what's going to happen when you have this kind of story. So it's perplexing to me that anyone was shocked by this development. In fact, it's just an extension of his Trickster arc and moral. If you read that conversation, it actually choreographs the current situation: A reminder that Caliborn/Lord English is almost directly responsible for this "new Vriska" development, I mean the retcons themselves are necessary for him to come about in the first place, so it only follows that they can't be good news. The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. Like literally "the Master's house". It almost seems like Hussie must have been conscious of this. This part is just describing all of Act 6 before the retcons. And it just goes on. He compares the Juju (ostensibly the lollipop, but allegorically the retcon power) to the star power-up from Mario: And immediately before that conversation, he actually refers to making things "un-happen". He almost seems to predict the arguments over whether the stuff that happened in the Game Over timeline actually "mattered", or if it was just a waste of time. And he also predicts that the retcons will be interpreted by some as a cheap, deus ex machina solution to his own story: So the Juju is the star. And John is Mario. Trickster Mario. And I guess by extension, the new Vriska is also Trickster Mario. Or more like Trickster Vriska. Which is terrifying. But in the end, despite her "positive influence", nothing was actually solved. Because they failed to develop and resolve their interpersonal issues. In order to ACTUALLY solve all of their problems with the retcon power, I think that John would have to go back here and convince Vriska to open up about her insecurities with Terezi and Karkat. Buuut for thematic reasons, they're probably NOT going to solve all of their problems with the Juju. Master's tools and all that. It's actually kind of weird to me that Hussie performed a dress rehearsal of this moral with the alpha kids, blatantly TOLD us the moral, and then spent so long setting this up with the Juju and John and Vriska. The story definitely could have been told more succinctly. But whatever. This is also part of the reason why the story has to go on longer than two more months, we aren't even at the stage where everyone realizes that they made a mistake yet.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 12, 2016 17:05:46 GMT
My bet: if we get one more person taking over the narrative before this shit is completely over (whether in a theoretical Act 8 or not) it'll be Muse!Calliope.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 12, 2016 21:06:18 GMT
One thing that I always like to remind everyone else, espeically now with the end so close, is that John paid a very steep price in order to be able to control his retcon powers. Everyone he loves and cared about will have to feel the same loss he did when his timeline ended. Same with Roxy. That price has yet to be paid, and I doubt that Hussie's just gonna ignore that part of Typheus's deal, esepcially when we hear Typheus noises at the end of Collide.
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Post by silavor on Apr 12, 2016 22:41:39 GMT
One thing that I always like to remind everyone else, espeically now with the end so close, is that John paid a very steep price in order to be able to control his retcon powers. Everyone he loves and cared about will have to feel the same loss he did when his timeline ended. Same with Roxy. That price has yet to be paid, and I doubt that Hussie's just gonna ignore that part of Typheus's deal, esepcially when we hear Typheus noises at the end of Collide. I thought that was pretty explicitly covered with post-recton John, Davesprite, and Roxy dying and being unable to be revived. Everyone else had to feel their loss until the retcons could bring the group back together.
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thecrystalship
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Post by thecrystalship on Apr 12, 2016 22:48:39 GMT
I thought that was pretty explicitly covered with post-recton John, Davesprite, and Roxy dying and being unable to be revived. Everyone else had to feel their loss until the retcons could bring the group back together. They could have revived post-retcon Roxy, they just chose not to because they're sociopaths. Remember when everyone abandoned Griska because she saw the doomed ghosts as expendable copies and used them to distract Lord English? Oh yeah. About that... LOL.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 12, 2016 22:52:24 GMT
Final IDE/Theory:
Page 1 of Act 7 is a flash simply showing the kids making the frog and entering the red door.
Page 2 of Act 7 is a link to the download page of Sburb, and the following text: "I've taught you everything you needed to know. Now the next adventure is yours. Good luck".
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Post by Outis on Apr 12, 2016 23:33:24 GMT
Last IDE/Theory: In Act 7 Hussie will be the one who defeat Lord English.
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Post by humbleElitist on Apr 13, 2016 0:04:23 GMT
theory: If a final blow is dealt against LE, AH will not deal said final blow against LE, or, if he does, said blow will be relatively insignificant.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 13, 2016 0:06:51 GMT
Ok another one: There will be no fight against LE in the ending, and if there is, it will be unnecessary or a red herring of some sort. Likewise, the fight we saw in Collide is also unnecessary.
Lord English will be defeated by means other than kicking his ass.
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Post by humbleElitist on Apr 13, 2016 0:25:41 GMT
Ok another one: There will be no fight against LE in the ending, and if there is, it will be unnecessary or a red herring of some sort. Likewise, the fight we saw in Collide is also unnecessary. Lord English will be defeated by means other than kicking his ass. I think this is also likely.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Apr 13, 2016 0:41:07 GMT
LAST MINUTE THEORY (warning: dumb)
What if (John) turns out to be Dad? Let's say he meets up with his timeline's Roxy and they return to leading lives on Earth; based on a coinflip they either go on B1 Earth or B2 Earth, and in both cases John from that timeline becomes Dad.
Nanna has multiple times compared John to his dad, saying that he reminds her of his dad when he was his age. And they are both attracted to Roxy. What if the John from that timeline misses his dad and decides to be like him only to realize he is his dad? What if he takes weightlifting and that's why Dad is super strong? Also, it might explain part of the thing of guardians knowing about Sburb.
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Post by PieTheDerptacular on Apr 13, 2016 1:37:15 GMT
Theory: Since Cal and Doc Scratch have both been hosts to LE, and both of their names are in Caled scratch, the final part of Caledscratch ( Ed) will be LE's final form. The ghost of Eddie Morton is Lord English.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 3:15:15 GMT
I thought that was pretty explicitly covered with post-recton John, Davesprite, and Roxy dying and being unable to be revived. Everyone else had to feel their loss until the retcons could bring the group back together. They could have revived post-retcon Roxy, they just chose not to because they're sociopaths. Remember when everyone abandoned Griska because she saw the doomed ghosts as expendable copies and used them to distract Lord English? Oh yeah. About that... LOL. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'd want fixed up if there was an adaptation or another version or something. Along with a couple of other things. Like that you were supposed to confront your Denizen to release the grist hoard, but the kids didn't have to to get their's released into Skaia, and this is not even lampshaded.
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imglasses
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Post by imglasses on Apr 13, 2016 3:24:24 GMT
They could have revived post-retcon Roxy, they just chose not to because they're sociopaths. Remember when everyone abandoned Griska because she saw the doomed ghosts as expendable copies and used them to distract Lord English? Oh yeah. About that... LOL. Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'd want fixed up if there was an adaptation or another version or something. Along with a couple of other things. Like that you were supposed to confront your Denizen to release the grist hoard, but the kids didn't have to to get their's released into Skaia, and this is not even lampshaded. Wasn't it just Terezi who said that the grist hoards had to be taken from the denizens? The trolls do have a history of terribly misunderstanding how they're supposed to deal with their denizens. Maybe the grist hoards are given up willingly if the denizens decide that the players are ready (the trolls were obviously not ready, so they decided the grist hoards had to be taken by force). I don't know if that's actually what went through Hussie's head, but it's a rationalization that keeps me from complaining at least.
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Post by alleywaycreeper on Apr 13, 2016 3:53:56 GMT
Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'd want fixed up if there was an adaptation or another version or something. Along with a couple of other things. Like that you were supposed to confront your Denizen to release the grist hoard, but the kids didn't have to to get their's released into Skaia, and this is not even lampshaded. Wasn't it just Terezi who said that the grist hoards had to be taken from the denizens? The trolls do have a history of terribly misunderstanding how they're supposed to deal with their denizens. Maybe the grist hoards are given up willingly if the denizens decide that the players are ready (the trolls were obviously not ready, so they decided the grist hoards had to be taken by force). I don't know if that's actually what went through Hussie's head, but it's a rationalization that keeps me from complaining at least. I think all Hussie had to do was have that be part of Kanaya and Echidna's deal. That she would release the egg and she would get the other Denizens to release their grist hoards as well, because we know from Dave's and Jade's quests and John's and Roxy's Choices that the Denizens work together on things like that sometimes. As for forked!Roxy, if her body was simply destroyed instead (via Union Jack or Condy's lasers like Kanaya's was in Game Over) than the whole 'we could've revived her but we chose not to' thing wouldn't have been an issue. Gonna be honest, that last act was pretty rushed.
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Post by Shadow of the Lotus on Apr 13, 2016 3:58:40 GMT
Shit. last minute theory. shit.
John still dislikes bakery items.
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Post by pointycatears on Apr 14, 2016 19:57:01 GMT
I came up with an idea this morning. I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but...
So I'm not the only one who thinks that the B1 kids that got trapped in the house are the ones from the pre-retcon timeline after John took the ring, meaning that Aranea never entered and messed everything up, and that timeline resulted in the universe we saw the Cherubs in, and things went differently in the new universe in the post retcon timeline.
What if Alternate Calliope came from the post-retcon timeline because she hatched somewhere else instead of Earth, and that's why she was never able to contact the B2 Kids? I mean, yes, she'd still have to have gotten a computer and a copy of the game somehow, but it's a possibility.
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