cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Oct 31, 2016 23:09:14 GMT
Jesus Salty you really don't need to go off on these tangents about sexuality like that, especially when it's not that relevant to the discussion. I am perpetually annoyed by SJW stuff too, and agree with a fair portion of what you say in that regard, but at least you should ignore the parts of what people say that are annoying lik that.
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Post by therationaldove on Oct 31, 2016 23:12:32 GMT
Wow, I opened this thread because I am a fan of JohnRoxy, but I was not expecting such a cesspool of yelling. Yeesh.
So I agree with The One Guy as to why John has not been paired with anyone. It serves as his motivation for wanting to take on Caliborn. He is unsatisfied with life.
Now, as far as romance in Homestuck goes, it's a bit complicated. I think things that we need to recognize about the comic is that, unlike books and movies, this webcomic was written over a long period of time without a whole lot of planning beforehand. The idea for the Alpha kids came in around the time Act 2 was being developed (for example). I'm pretty sure the trolls where something he created on a whim as well. Hell, he's been known to actively experiment within Homestuck (he's tried different art styles, for example). So, I don't think there was ever a precedence for every foreshadowed event coming to fruition as the project develops. Not to mention that time is a huge factor when it comes to comics like this. Hussie is in a different place than he was back in 2009 and I think it would be absurd to expect for his storytelling to be the exact same as it was 7 year ago. Hell, he sort of lampshaded the fact that John and Dave would use the word "gay" in potentially offensive ways during some of the late game conversations. Does that excuse him from bad storytelling? Not really. I think that he could've spent more time developing some of the relationships. However, I don't think any of the relationships that we have seen in Homestuck came out of literally nothing, so...there's that.
Bascially, what I am trying to say is that I think it's hard for anything that is being composed over time to stay completely consistent from beginning to end. We have to expect that some things will be abandoned for bigger, different ideas that might pop into Hussie's head.
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Salty
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Post by Salty on Oct 31, 2016 23:12:53 GMT
Jesus Salty you really don't need to go off on these tangents about sexuality like that, especially when it's not that relevant to the discussion. I am perpetually annoyed by SJW stuff too, and agree with a fair portion of what you say in that regard, but at least you should ignore the parts of what people say that are annoying lik that. Yeah... I tend to get sidetracked easily. Let's just forget that conversation ever happened and just be salty about Roxygen.
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Salty
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Post by Salty on Oct 31, 2016 23:24:24 GMT
Wow, I opened this thread because I am a fan of JohnRoxy, but I was not expecting such a cesspool of yelling. Yeesh. So I agree with The One Guy as to why John has not been paired with anyone. It serves as his motivation for wanting to take on Caliborn. He is unsatisfied with life. Now, as far as romance in Homestuck goes, it's a bit complicated. I think things that we need to recognize about the comic is that, unlike books and movies, this webcomic was written over a long period of time without a whole lot of planning beforehand. The idea for the Alpha kids came in around the time Act 2 was being developed (for example). I'm pretty sure the trolls where something he created on a whim as well. Hell, he's been known to actively experiment within Homestuck (he's tried different art styles, for example). So, I don't think there was ever a precedence for every foreshadowed event coming to fruition as the project develops. Not to mention that time is a huge factor when it comes to comics like this. Hussie is in a different place than he was back in 2009 and I think it would be absurd to expect for his storytelling to be the exact same as it was 7 year ago. Hell, he sort of lampshaded the fact that John and Dave would use the word "gay" in potentially offensive ways during some of the late game conversations. Does that excuse him from bad storytelling? Not really. I think that he could've spent more time developing some of the relationships. However, I don't think any of the relationships that we have seen in Homestuck came out of literally nothing, so...there's that. Bascially, what I am trying to say is that I think it's hard for anything that is being composed over time to stay completely consistent from beginning to end. We have to expect that some things will be abandoned for bigger, different ideas that might pop into Hussie's head. Agreed wholeheartedly. John being unsatisfied with life would surely be interesting; as I mentioned before, I would like to see John explore the pre-retcon timeline, so that we might get some significance in regards to Terezi: Remember, as well as the ghost versions of his former teammates -- you know, the ones that were actually his friends. This time isn't actually Johns, not really, and these people are different from the ones he used to know. I think it would be a very positive direction for the character if instead of using the current beta kids, who are all happy on Earth C, he could solicit the help of his friends from the original timeline. Eh, I would disagree on the whole romance thing, at least to an extent. While I obviously don't expect the comic to be the same after seven years of development, I expected it to maintain a certain degree of quality. As in, if it did so well developing the characters before A6, why couldn't it do so after? If he wanted to make Rosemary and Davekat the new main ships, why not use some proper buildup of those relationships instead of hastily shoving them in there without any sort of tact or grace about the matter? It just seemed very... lazy, almost. Like, he had so much potential for where to go and how to change these characters, and all that really happened is three years of nothing, followed by GAME OVER, and then a universe we don't even recognize or, in my case, empathize with. Just a whole lot of slow perfunctory action, like he was just going through the motions instead of enjoying himself. It really showed, in my opinion, with JohnRoxy: something that he was seemingly building up, and actually building up well, only to have it lead nowhere. That's kinda how the whole comic felt for me after A5, just leading... nowhere. At all. Collide was great, sure, but A7 was trash because it didn't really give us a satisfactory ending. It felt like it left too many loopholes in a story known for closing loopholes; shit, just look at Cascade! Most consider it the high point of the comic because, well, it gave us a satisfying conclusion to a narrative arc, closing up everything nice and neat like in this big cataclysmic kind of event! And I feel like Hussie could've achieved that again. But shit, what do I know? I'm just a salty bastard.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 1, 2016 0:18:58 GMT
this webcomic was written over a long period of time without a whole lot of planning beforehand. I think Homestuck has far more planning in it than many people think. Hussie took away the user commands fairly early on in the story, obviously because he wanted control of the story's direction, which in turn suggests that had a particular direction in mind. On top of that there is of course the Gigapause, the yearlong Hiatus in which Hussie claims to have finished writing the remainder of the story out at his own pace and leisure. And as the cherry on top, Hussie has pretty much from the get go always maintained that he knew what the ending to Homestuck will be and that he never deviated from that end goal. So whatever Hussie was attempting with the end here, I am very confident that he meant it, that it wasn't just hastily slapped together in a last minute panic. I think what happened is that A) he got a little to carried away with the need to be subversive and meta and forgot that literary tropes exist for a reason and B) with all his other projects ongoing he wanted to try and wrap up the story even if he had to skip buildup and pacing to do so.
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Post by TrickleJest on Nov 1, 2016 9:32:47 GMT
I'm a very big Roxygen shipper, and Calleoxy is a fucking shit ship. It's so bad, I can't even fathom how bad it is. Callie is also like three years younger so it's more fucking messed up. I'm so Salty with Hussie right now...
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Nov 1, 2016 14:59:59 GMT
this webcomic was written over a long period of time without a whole lot of planning beforehand. I think Homestuck has far more planning in it than many people think. Hussie took away the user commands fairly early on in the story, obviously because he wanted control of the story's direction, which in turn suggests that had a particular direction in mind. On top of that there is of course the Gigapause, the yearlong Hiatus in which Hussie claims to have finished writing the remainder of the story out at his own pace and leisure. And as the cherry on top, Hussie has pretty much from the get go always maintained that he knew what the ending to Homestuck will be and that he never deviated from that end goal. So whatever Hussie was attempting with the end here, I am very confident that he meant it, that it wasn't just hastily slapped together in a last minute panic. I would disagree, to an extent. Actually part of the problem was that he did have a plan for the ending, he just did a terrible job working toward it. I'm a very big Roxygen shipper, and Calleoxy is a fucking shit ship. It's so bad, I can't even fathom how bad it is. Callie is also like three years younger so it's more fucking messed up. I'm so Salty with Hussie right now... I don't know where people keep getting the idea that Calliope is three years younger than Roxy, and even if that is the case three years is not that significant of an age gap for relationships anyway.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Nov 1, 2016 16:26:55 GMT
I'm a very big Roxygen shipper, and Calleoxy is a fucking shit ship. It's so bad, I can't even fathom how bad it is. Callie is also like three years younger so it's more fucking messed up. I'm so Salty with Hussie right now... I don't know where people keep getting the idea that Calliope is three years younger than Roxy, and even if that is the case three years is not that significant of an age gap for relationships anyway. Hussie tweeted once that the cherubs are both 11 units old, which some people confused with years even though that could mean basically anything.
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Post by sporkaganza on Nov 2, 2016 1:06:32 GMT
We've gotten to the point where people are saying "SJW" and being serious about it. This thread needs to end.
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 2, 2016 2:19:29 GMT
We've gotten to the point where people are saying "SJW" and being serious about it. This thread needs to end. While I agree that this thread is wildly off topic, your phrasing makes it sound like you want it shut down because the people are expressing opinions you disagree with. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you meant. I only point it out because the stifling of dissenting opinion is one of the things so-called SJWs are often blamed for, so adopting such a stance, even if accidentally, certainly isn't going to help your case.
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Post by jacquerel on Nov 2, 2016 4:18:23 GMT
Nah he's basically right, this was a terrible topic from less than halfway down the first page. How about instead of having a topic to make awful posts in, why not just not make awful posts?
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The One Guy
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Post by The One Guy on Nov 2, 2016 14:03:45 GMT
You guys do realize that particular conversation had already ended, right?
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Georgie
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Post by Georgie on Nov 2, 2016 14:23:03 GMT
Exactly. No need to continue a closed discussion, you lot. Now, my interest in shipping is minimal, but I do have to admit that the distinct lack of anything Roxygen since A6A6I4 has bothered me. It was, in my opinion, one of the more hinted at relationships in the comic, and I was genuinely quite surprised that Hussie decided not to make it canon. That said, I can understand the emphasis that has been placed on the friendship between Roxy and Calliope (and I see their relationship as no more than that), given how important it was to the development of the latter. Hopefully, we might get a few bits between John and Roxy in any future snaps and/or the epilogue. As a side note, it also just occurred to me that I may have latched onto Roxygen because it was pretty much the only reasonably developed relationship that we saw between an alpha kid and a beta kid who are unrelated.
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Salty
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Post by Salty on Nov 3, 2016 20:02:38 GMT
Exactly. No need to continue a closed discussion, you lot. Now, my interest in shipping is minimal, but I do have to admit that the distinct lack of anything Roxygen since A6A6I4 has bothered me. It was, in my opinion, one of the more hinted at relationships in the comic, and I was genuinely quite surprised that Hussie decided not to make it canon. That said, I can understand the emphasis that has been placed on the friendship between Roxy and Calliope (and I see their relationship as no more than that), given how important it was to the development of the latter. Hopefully, we might get a few bits between John and Roxy in any future snaps and/or the epilogue. As a side note, it also just occurred to me that I may have latched onto Roxygen because it was pretty much the only reasonably developed relationship that we saw between an alpha kid and a beta kid who are unrelated. I should hope so. I greatly enjoy the dynamic the two shared, despite how brief it was. I wish they'd followed through, but getting something in the epilogue might make up for that.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Nov 5, 2016 0:54:42 GMT
Hey I'm forever salty about how JohnVris was handled after act 5 and that happened before JohnRoxy lol. I never cared about JohnRoxy and it just seemed like a fanservice ship from the start to me since Hussie started pushing it right when it became a popular crack ship. It just came from out of the blue and never really got explored, and still hasn't been. It happened because..... Roxy was desperate for a boyfriend and she saw Jake in John, and John kind of... went with it? I would like it more if the pairing got more screen time and some proper development like JohnVris did.
Also I just want to point out that John not really caring so much about romance doesn't suddenly make him ace, because there's other factors that can contribute to that. It's like how people were saying that Jake could be ace because at one time he said he didn't want a relationship or something. Also, there has been other pairings that weren't really addressed like Davekat so it's not just JohnRoxy. It just annoys me how people keep jumping to conclusions about characters, like the whole 'DaveJadeKat' ship rising just because Jade is hanging out with Karkat and Dave. 3 people living in a house together doesn't mean a poly relationship.
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Post by TrickleJest on Nov 5, 2016 19:24:53 GMT
Also I just want to point out that John not really caring so much about romance doesn't suddenly make him ace, because there's other factors that can contribute to that. It's like how people were saying that Jake could be ace because at one time he said he didn't want a relationship or something. Also, there has been other pairings that weren't really addressed like Davekat so it's not just JohnRoxy. It just annoys me how people keep jumping to conclusions about characters, like the whole 'DaveJadeKat' ship rising just because Jade is hanging out with Karkat and Dave. 3 people living in a house together doesn't mean a poly relationship. YES!! THANK YOU!!! I whole-heartedly agree. I always wish I could live in a house with some people, like FUCKING FRIENDS. And also, if John wanted to adventure, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM ACE! He said 'we have bigger fish to fry' but now that they DON'T have bigger fish to fry, they can go back to their relationships. Sheesh. People really like making stupid assumptions. Remember - ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME!
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Salty
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Post by Salty on Nov 5, 2016 20:44:06 GMT
Also I just want to point out that John not really caring so much about romance doesn't suddenly make him ace, because there's other factors that can contribute to that. It's like how people were saying that Jake could be ace because at one time he said he didn't want a relationship or something. Also, there has been other pairings that weren't really addressed like Davekat so it's not just JohnRoxy. It just annoys me how people keep jumping to conclusions about characters, like the whole 'DaveJadeKat' ship rising just because Jade is hanging out with Karkat and Dave. 3 people living in a house together doesn't mean a poly relationship. YES!! THANK YOU!!! I whole-heartedly agree. I always wish I could live in a house with some people, like FUCKING FRIENDS. And also, if John wanted to adventure, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM ACE! He said 'we have bigger fish to fry' but now that they DON'T have bigger fish to fry, they can go back to their relationships. Sheesh. People really like making stupid assumptions. Remember - ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME! That was so cheesy, and I love it. Yeah, it really doesn't correlate, especially considering John has, you know, shown attraction to be before.
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Post by staircaseofkneecaps on Nov 5, 2016 22:38:58 GMT
YES!! THANK YOU!!! I whole-heartedly agree. I always wish I could live in a house with some people, like FUCKING FRIENDS. And also, if John wanted to adventure, IT DOESN'T MAKE HIM ACE! He said 'we have bigger fish to fry' but now that they DON'T have bigger fish to fry, they can go back to their relationships. Sheesh. People really like making stupid assumptions. Remember - ASSUME makes an ASS out of U and ME! That was so cheesy, and I love it. Yeah, it really doesn't correlate, especially considering John has, you know, shown attraction to me before. I ship John and Salty
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Salty
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Post by Salty on Nov 5, 2016 23:06:57 GMT
That was so cheesy, and I love it. Yeah, it really doesn't correlate, especially considering John has, you know, shown attraction to me before. I ship John and Salty Drat, you've discovered my nefarious plan! John will be my waifu yet, you rotten kids!
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Nov 6, 2016 8:45:01 GMT
That was so cheesy, and I love it. Yeah, it really doesn't correlate, especially considering John has, you know, shown attraction to me before. I ship John and Salty sorry i will probs be shipping johnvris until my grave so it will have to settle for second best for me
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Post by The One Guy on Nov 7, 2016 16:07:02 GMT
Also I just want to point out that John not really caring so much about romance doesn't suddenly make him ace, because there's other factors that can contribute to that. It's like how people were saying that Jake could be ace because at one time he said he didn't want a relationship or something. Also, there has been other pairings that weren't really addressed like Davekat so it's not just JohnRoxy. It just annoys me how people keep jumping to conclusions about characters, like the whole 'DaveJadeKat' ship rising just because Jade is hanging out with Karkat and Dave. 3 people living in a house together doesn't mean a poly relationship. Well the theories about John being ace are based on him not showing any sort of attraction toward anyone not just him not being interested in romance right now. As for Davekat, people aren't as salty because of the very fact you mentioned, that they're living together and interacting closely with each other. Whether they do so romantically or not is unknown, but the possibility is still there. Ultimately, with everything you brough up, what you have to realize is that the various ships and theories that pop up are just that: ships and theories. For instance, no one is saying that Dave, Jade, and Karkat are necessarily in a poly relationship without a doubt, only that the possibility exists, and people have latched on to that. (With the John x Roxy ship, though, it seems pretty clear it is not a possibility, hence why people are salty about it.)
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Post by HypergressiveAgent on Nov 8, 2016 22:37:03 GMT
good god this thread i am not going to pretend to know anything about sexuality or shipping or anything that has been previously discussed. i am going to offer some input, and hope we can clean up all this salt, rather than bitch and moan. Unless you want to vent. go nuts in that case. My understanding is that this thread is a quarintine for salty peeps over the John/Roxy realtionship. i personally "shipped" it, since they complement each other insanely well, but there is a flaw inherenet to this pairing that is obvious when you start to look at bigger picture. and by that i mean dave. dave and the the whole biological relationship between Dave and Roxy (which is already awkward enough) prevent roxygen from working. Roxygen requires Dave to be okay with his best bro John dating his Mom, with whom dave is already very emotionally confused about. I like to think that John can see that this would upset his best bro, and almost certainly would bring awkwardness into the hypothetical relationship between John and Roxy. if shipping is a science, then the first tenet of it should be to minimize awkward situations at all times. Shipping is not a hard science, however, and only by discussion and taking into account the larger social interactions beyond one character with another can the correct, canonical ships be reached. Let it be known now that i am also butthurt about Roses complete lack of development, and that although i can understand the apparant relationship between Roxy and Calliope (seeing as Rose also went for an alien), i still think its weird.
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cookiefonster
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Post by cookiefonster on Nov 9, 2016 17:15:34 GMT
Roxygen requires Dave to be okay with his best bro John dating his Mom, with whom dave is already very emotionally confused about. The funny thing is that Dave actually is completely OK with that. So there you go.
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Post by HypergressiveAgent on Nov 9, 2016 21:57:10 GMT
Damn ye and your damning evidence But by the same token, Dave is extremely awkward in his relationship with Roxy, and by extension, Rose. These Freudian slips can't be over looked.That being said, i have since changed my stance on John's apparent shipless canon life, considering he is a Breath player, a "free spirit", if you will. Following this train of thought, only a Blood player could hope to form some kind of end game canonical ship with a Breath player. plus, although i concede that Dave does say he is cool with it, i think its safe to say that many people would not be OK with it, considering the semi-psuedo-incestuous nature of John marrying his best bro's mom. I mean, if we did say this ship would work, then we would also have to say that JohnXJane could be a possibility, especially considering it was in the end credits. This obviously cannot be the case, or else Hussie is a huge perv. That being said, "Hussie" is entirely to close to "hussy" word wise for my liking. I hope to god he isn't actually a perv
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Post by obsidalicious on Nov 9, 2016 22:17:07 GMT
plus, although i concede that Dave does say he is cool with it, i think its safe to say that many people would not be OK with it, considering the semi-incestuous nature of John marrying his best bro's mom. Do you actually know what Incest is? Because it isn't that. Not by a long shot.
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