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Post by DS Piron on Apr 14, 2016 1:25:37 GMT
On the subject of that imgur post: no, the rules of writing are subjective, otherwise all of would dislike this ending. < Yes, but at the same time, if more of them were followed, perhaps Homestuck's ending would've been found appealing by more of it's fans > And/ Or more homogenized, I dunno. The post below is a better counter point.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 14, 2016 1:27:30 GMT
On the subject of that imgur post: no, the rules of writing are subjective, otherwise all of would dislike this ending. Another reddit post which is a reply to your point and is also kind of awesome:
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 14, 2016 1:30:43 GMT
If there is anything unequivocably positive about all this, at least Homestuck has left behind a legacy of those who were inspired by it. Things like Undertale, NeoKosmos and other such works were really only possible because of the impact Homestuck made on them. So, even if Homestuck is left as a mired mess, at least its spirit of what it could have been lives on in those things.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 14, 2016 1:32:23 GMT
Well Undertale's endings are way better than Homestuck's one and there are like 20 of them, so there is that.
Even the dog ending is better.
Even the glitch ending is better.
Okay I'll stop.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 14, 2016 1:34:18 GMT
I got to agree with Strawhat Luffy. Rules are there for a reason. It makes better storytelling. I honestly think Homestuck would have had a far better final if story rules were obeyed and all the rules in that image were followed. I mean, look what happened as a result of the comic disobeying story telling; it made the comic go in a bad direction and leaving many fans unsatisfied. This is why it's easier to just obey the rules of storytelling, because not doing so is very risky.
And yes Undertale went down far better. Probably because it didn't get stretched out for 7 years. It still had a few questions, but those question's aren't huge plot holes and can be easily satisfied with fan theories.
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 14, 2016 1:35:58 GMT
On the subject of that imgur post: no, the rules of writing are subjective, otherwise all of would dislike this ending. Another reddit post which is a reply to your point and is also kind of awesome: But we were told from the start that this was a urine party. There was never going to be a final boss battle, and Cascade was always the Climax. This was always a urine drinking party, and it just happened to have wine. The real question is why you showed up to a urine party expecting wine, found some, and then got upset when the host served you the urine that was promised from the start.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 14, 2016 1:39:03 GMT
Look, I'll be the first to tell anyone that one of the reasons I love Homestuck is because Hussie murders storytelling rules them pisses on their graves, and still manages to pull something awesome off.
But usually when he is doing that, he pulls plot twists so cool we can't hope but love them.
But this was not the case. It wasn't awesome. He didn't pull any twists. He spoiled the plot before the omegapause and played it straight. No strings attached. No surprises. Nothing.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 14, 2016 1:40:19 GMT
It's hard to think that Cascade was the climax when Act 6 ended up becoming far longer than Act 5, and acts 1-5 combined for that matter. Act 6 ended up becoming it's own story to the point that the main villain in Act 5 got shoved aside and became very minor. Act 5 lasted for one year (I think?), compared to Act 6 lasting for about 5 years.
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Post by Strawhat Luffy on Apr 14, 2016 1:43:01 GMT
Cascade was always the Climax. No it wasn't. Cascade was 4.5 years and 4000 pages ago. We didn't just get 4000 pages of epilogue. The villain didn't die in Cascade. The villain won in Cascade. And he also got formally introduced right after it. Half of the main cast also got introduced after it. That's not a climax in any sense of the word, and if Hussie said that, I attribute it to either him not having a full grasp of the size of Act 6 (which is understandable) or being a shitty storyteller (which is not, because this is the guy who wrote Problem Sleuth).
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 14, 2016 1:46:29 GMT
Yeah Hussie is definetly not a bad writer, considering that it's the same guy who did Acts 1-5, which was probably the best works in fiction I've ever seen. And Act 6 wasn't that bad. I love the guy's works and I also love people who have a similar style to him like Toby. It's like Hussie just wrote himself into a corner along the way and didn't know how to get out of it. Ether that or he simply lost his passion for Homestuck after 7 years of working on it.
I'm also starting to wonder if the whole deal with Hiveswap and what happened with that greatly effected the comic and it's delivery.
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Post by therationaldove on Apr 14, 2016 1:50:12 GMT
An interesting opinion on everything: mtjester.tumblr.com/post/142766726165/all-of-these-comparisons-of-act-7-to-the-finalI think the most relatable thing that this person talks about is how HS's ending was most likely a pure product of Hussie's full artistic vision, rather than him wanting to completely conclude the story "properly". Like, I don't think, as I've said before, he did this because he was tired or because he was "pressed for time". The newspost make it sound like this was the vision he had been working towards for years and he wasn't afraid to ignore standard writing conventions in order to realize that vision. Obviously that decision may be admirable or maybe Hussie is selfish because of that. I don't know. In some ways, this also reminds me a lot of Scott Cawthorn and the Five Nights at Freddy's Games. At one point, in the last game where he had a box at the very end talking about the answer of what the hell is going on in those games being within the box. There was this expectation that FnaF would get some definitive answer to the meaning of all the lore, but then, after the Halloween update, he decided against it. He figured that he would just leave it all unanswered and mysterious because he felt that a true explanation would leave too many people angry or disapointed. So, in a way, he sort of left the ultimate answers up to the fanbase to puzzle out. Granted, the FnaF games aren't master stories and you can easily find satisfaction in the pure game mechanics rather than the complex lore. Thus, leaving the games in a classically "unresolved" state is fine. At least Homestuck isn't alone in that regard. I think the real question then becomes, can we be satisifed? If this is the true ending and nothing else comes after what do we do? How do we process this? Is Homestuck now a piece of garbage, is there still confort in the fond memories? Can we still say it was good even with a poor ending? It's a hard question to answer.
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Post by mageddondreams on Apr 14, 2016 1:50:53 GMT
Read this and burn it into your souls: imgur.com/a/9ucF7Edit: Just noticed I got ninja'd, sorry. Solid rules for making a certain shape of story work, in a certain tradition of telling stories. Homestuck not being a story of that type does not make it a bad story. Any more than a Western European fairy story ending with "and they got married and lived happily ever after", a Chinese traditional story ending "and they had lots of sons who all did great in their exams and had successful careers", or a Hungarian fairy story ending "and if they haven't died yet they're alive to this day" are doing anything wrong by having different notions of what makes a satisfying ending. Homestuck isn't at heart a heroic story. It is, to my mind, a story about the various ways thinking you are in a heroic story is bad for you and how to grow out of them. That it breaks the "rules" of a heroic story all over the place, in a sustained and systemic way, is success at doing that, not failure at being something it isn't. Everything of significance Vriska ever does illustrates how terrible it is to want to be the hero of your own story rather than just living your life.
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Post by ConstantTroublemaker on Apr 14, 2016 1:58:31 GMT
Look, I'll be the first to tell anyone that one of the reasons I love Homestuck is because Hussie murders storytelling rules them pisses on their graves, and still manages to pull something awesome off. But usually when he is doing that, he pulls plot twists so cool we can't hope but love them. But this was not the case. It wasn't awesome. He didn't pull any twists. He spoiled the plot before the omegapause and played it straight. No strings attached. No surprises. Nothing. And he also managed to not even playing it straigth WELL, leaving gaping plot holes all around. He was tired (or just ran out) of sudden plot twists? Fine. In all stories, even the most convoluted, comes a moment when you have to actually bring the main plot to a conclusion and tie up loose ends. This is what didn't happen here, or at least happened very poorly.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 14, 2016 2:18:03 GMT
Another problem that I've noticed with the comic that someone pointed out on reddit was that a lot of character arcs remained unfinished, and character arcs in story telling should get finished. They got kind of broken and jumbled up, and considering the comic became heavily character driven this sort of thing shouldn't have happened.
Vriska's arc and Gamzee's arc both stood to me for being the most broken. Both of their arcs went downhill during act 6 and Gamzee lost his arc completely in the post-retcon timeline. I really wanted to see Gamzee's perspective on things and get treated as an actual character again rather than a weird comic relief with no lines. I prefer Terezi's, Dave's, Jade's and Karkat's arcs pre-retcon (although that's just my own personal preference and I know people have different opinions on this matter), Rose and Jade didn't have much of an arc after Act 5, Jake and Dirk's relationship seemed to have gotten resolved off-screen, we now have a war between Davekat and Davejade shippers because of that picnic scene, etc.
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Post by sparkeletran on Apr 14, 2016 2:26:02 GMT
Eyyy finally something I can agree with. Seriously - the notion he just didn't care anymore is... kind of ridiculous, going by the newspost. It sounds more like he cared, and a LOT, about his original vision of how the story would conclude - including its vagueness. What's actually being shown is very possibly to be revealed in the future, "after some reflection." I'm pretty sure Hussie knew the ending would piss some people off - perhaps not quite as many as it did, but he's not dumb. He definitely knew there'd be backlash. His intention feels like it's pretty clearly to just accept it and either forget about the comic or try and figure out a nice ending with the pieces given to us - on a literal the-defeat-of-Lord-English level, I'm liking Bzak's and Soeroah's "pocketing LE into the blackhole" idea. On a more meta, "what was the point" level, I'm still leaning towards the previously linked post - the ending reflecting Homestuck's own status as metafiction, something divergent from conventional storytelling since its inception. I can definitely understand being disappointed by plot holes, and I do hope there's resolution to those at some point of the epilogue... but in terms of Act 7, what we saw and how it was done - the kids' ultimate fate and Lord English's demise - I'm pretty happy. There could've just been more stuff before it.
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imglasses
Your shit is wrecked
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Post by imglasses on Apr 14, 2016 2:28:03 GMT
I think I figured out an interpretation of the ending that makes me feel okay with it. Happy about it, even, despite all my complaining. It's not until the very last moment of the story that we realize the true meaning of "Homestuck". We saw Caliborn and John at the same time at the very end as an important contrast. Caliborn is the embodiment of determinism. He chose domination via inevitability. During the Masterpiece, Caliborn trapped the four main protagonists inside the juju. By doing this, he was trapping them within the narrative. The narrative is static. No matter how many times you read it, it's always the same course of events, the one that has been manipulated by LE all along. Caliborn took a literal control of the narrative in Act 6 Act 6, but he had that control all along. The only thing that could cause pages of Homestuck to change was John's interaction with the white house juju. The true goal of the protagonists was to escape inevitability and gain free will. The only way to do this was to escape Homestuck itself; they don't have free will if the next page is set in stone already. This is why their red house was really the white house juju. They weren't just entering a new universe, they were exiting the narrative that they had been trapped in. The greatest dilemma faced by the protagonists all along wasn't Lord English himself, but inevitability, which English simply exploited. That is why the story is called Homestuck. The protagonists were stuck in a home, that home being Homestuck itself, symbolized by the white house-shaped juju. This is also why the very last thing we see is John reaching for the door. After that moment, the protagonists are free from the story. Our inability to see them is their freedom (unfortunately for us); in fact, it is probably their Ultimate Reward. That's why it doesn't actually matter what happened to Lord English, or any of the plotlines we never got to see resolved for that matter. Lord English was trapped within the narrative, as was everyone and everything else. As soon as our protagonists passed through that door, the story was over. That is how LE dies. Homestuck is his medium for existing, the strict unchangingness of the narrative was what gave him power, and by passing through the white house, the protagonists put an end to Homestuck. That is why the white house first served as LE's weapon, and afterwards served as his demise. He first used it to trap the characters in the narrative. Then, the characters used it to escape and end the narrative with LE in it. Our protagonists are finally free. At least, this is my theory, which is a really nice way to keep me from hating the ending. The plot was neglected intentionally because it was "overridden" by the deeper theme of the story. It's still really not the best way to tell the story, but at least maybe the "bad" ending happened for a good reason. If this is at all true, though, it means we won't exactly get the epilogue we want. The fact that the protagonists were victorious means we cannot view them anymore. The epilogue will only cover the remaining plot threads in the world that the protagonists have left behind. Maybe we'll get some real explanations of plot, and possibly see Vriska, Aradia and others...but I think John, Rose, Dave, Jade, Jane, Jake, Roxy, Dirk, Karkat, Kanaya, Terezi, Calliope, Dad, WV, and PM are gone. It would violate the theme of the story to put any of those characters back on mspaintadventures.com. That's why we saw a flash-forward to what the future might be like on Earth, rather than actually seeing it. For their victory to mean anything, we cannot see these characters after they pass through the door. Maybe it would be OK if the epilogue was on a different website, though. Anyways, I know there's plenty of plot holes with that theory, but it's a reasonable excuse for disregarding so many plot threads, and a reasonable excuse for not showing us the characters in their new universe, while actually feeling satisfying. At least it's a way for me to actually appreciate the end of Homestuck. Maybe Hussie will talk about it in a news update at some point.
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Post by badatnames on Apr 14, 2016 2:40:29 GMT
While I was (and to an extant still am) dissatisfied with the plot threads left open, I think I can can put that aside and just be happy that Homestuck has ended, and that after all that's happened, the kids are finally happened. I also trust Hussie to make use of the epilogue wisely.
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Post by mysterypig on Apr 14, 2016 2:41:55 GMT
We saw Caliborn and John at the same time at the very end as an important contrast. Caliborn is the embodiment of determinism. He chose domination via inevitability. During the Masterpiece, Caliborn trapped the four main protagonists inside the juju. By doing this, he was trapping them within the narrative. The narrative is static. No matter how many times you read it, it's always the same course of events, the one that has been manipulated by LE all along. Caliborn took a literal control of the narrative in Act 6 Act 6, but he had that control all along. The only thing that could cause pages of Homestuck to change was John's interaction with the white house juju. The true goal of the protagonists was to escape inevitability and gain free will. The only way to do this was to escape Homestuck itself; they don't have free will if the next page is set in stone already. This is why their red house was really the white house juju. They weren't just entering a new universe, they were exiting the narrative that they had been trapped in. The greatest dilemma faced by the protagonists all along wasn't Lord English himself, but inevitability, which English simply exploited. That is why the story is called Homestuck. The protagonists were stuck in a home, that home being Homestuck itself, symbolized by the white house-shaped juju. This is also why the very last thing we see is John reaching for the door. After that moment, the protagonists are free from the story. Our inability to see them is their freedom (unfortunately for us); in fact, it is probably their Ultimate Reward. This is the best explanation. Its this post.
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Post by melonlord on Apr 14, 2016 2:43:57 GMT
Everything of significance Vriska ever does illustrates how terrible it is to want to be the hero of your own story rather than just living your life. Is that so? Man, that's an interesting and thematically fitting moral. Would have been nice if the story had actually illustrated that, instead of bending over backwards to bring her back to life, regressing her to her self-absorbed abusive self, and then portraying her as a hero in the final animation with absolutely no apparent comeuppance or lessons learned whatsoever, while her more developed counterpart that we spent hundreds of pages getting to know was abandoned by her girlfriend and then presumably fucking died, if not during Terezi:remem8er then almost certainly in the finale. The character that said these things never apologized, never learned anything new, and indeed was never acknowledged by herself, the other characters, or the narrative itself as having done anything wrong. She sure got to look badass doing a heroic anime pose in front of that juju house whatsit, though.
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Post by comicalArchitect on Apr 14, 2016 2:47:19 GMT
We saw Caliborn and John at the same time at the very end as an important contrast. Caliborn is the embodiment of determinism. He chose domination via inevitability. During the Masterpiece, Caliborn trapped the four main protagonists inside the juju. By doing this, he was trapping them within the narrative. The narrative is static. No matter how many times you read it, it's always the same course of events, the one that has been manipulated by LE all along. Caliborn took a literal control of the narrative in Act 6 Act 6, but he had that control all along. The only thing that could cause pages of Homestuck to change was John's interaction with the white house juju. The true goal of the protagonists was to escape inevitability and gain free will. The only way to do this was to escape Homestuck itself; they don't have free will if the next page is set in stone already. This is why their red house was really the white house juju. They weren't just entering a new universe, they were exiting the narrative that they had been trapped in. The greatest dilemma faced by the protagonists all along wasn't Lord English himself, but inevitability, which English simply exploited. That is why the story is called Homestuck. The protagonists were stuck in a home, that home being Homestuck itself, symbolized by the white house-shaped juju. This is also why the very last thing we see is John reaching for the door. After that moment, the protagonists are free from the story. Our inability to see them is their freedom (unfortunately for us); in fact, it is probably their Ultimate Reward. This is the best explanation. Its this post. Seconded; I like the ending more than ever now. Still flawed, but it makes sense to me.
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
Posts: 1,343
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 14, 2016 2:48:35 GMT
I think I figured out an interpretation of the ending that makes me feel okay with it. Happy about it, even, despite all my complaining. It's not until the very last moment of the story that we realize the true meaning of "Homestuck". We saw Caliborn and John at the same time at the very end as an important contrast. Caliborn is the embodiment of determinism. He chose domination via inevitability. During the Masterpiece, Caliborn trapped the four main protagonists inside the juju. By doing this, he was trapping them within the narrative. The narrative is static. No matter how many times you read it, it's always the same course of events, the one that has been manipulated by LE all along. Caliborn took a literal control of the narrative in Act 6 Act 6, but he had that control all along. The only thing that could cause pages of Homestuck to change was John's interaction with the white house juju. The true goal of the protagonists was to escape inevitability and gain free will. The only way to do this was to escape Homestuck itself; they don't have free will if the next page is set in stone already. This is why their red house was really the white house juju. They weren't just entering a new universe, they were exiting the narrative that they had been trapped in. The greatest dilemma faced by the protagonists all along wasn't Lord English himself, but inevitability, which English simply exploited. That is why the story is called Homestuck. The protagonists were stuck in a home, that home being Homestuck itself, symbolized by the white house-shaped juju. This is also why the very last thing we see is John reaching for the door. After that moment, the protagonists are free from the story. Our inability to see them is their freedom (unfortunately for us); in fact, it is probably their Ultimate Reward. That's why it doesn't actually matter what happened to Lord English, or any of the plotlines we never got to see resolved for that matter. Lord English was trapped within the narrative, as was everyone and everything else. As soon as our protagonists passed through that door, the story was over. That is how LE dies. Homestuck is his medium for existing, the strict unchangingness of the narrative was what gave him power, and by passing through the white house, the protagonists put an end to Homestuck. That is why the white house first served as LE's weapon, and afterwards served as his demise. He first used it to trap the characters in the narrative. Then, the characters used it to escape and end the narrative with LE in it. Our protagonists are finally free. At least, this is my theory, which is a really nice way to keep me from hating the ending. The plot was neglected intentionally because it was "overridden" by the deeper theme of the story. It's still really not the best way to tell the story, but at least maybe the "bad" ending happened for a good reason. If this is at all true, though, it means we won't exactly get the epilogue we want. The fact that the protagonists were victorious means we cannot view them anymore. The epilogue will only cover the remaining plot threads in the world that the protagonists have left behind. Maybe we'll get some real explanations of plot, and possibly see Vriska, Aradia and others...but I think John, Rose, Dave, Jade, Jane, Jake, Roxy, Dirk, Karkat, Kanaya, Terezi, Calliope, Dad, WV, and PM are gone. It would violate the theme of the story to put any of those characters back on mspaintadventures.com. That's why we saw a flash-forward to what the future might be like on Earth, rather than actually seeing it. For their victory to mean anything, we cannot see these characters after they pass through the door. Maybe it would be OK if the epilogue was on a different website, though. Anyways, I know there's plenty of plot holes with that theory, but it's a reasonable excuse for disregarding so many plot threads, and a reasonable excuse for not showing us the characters in their new universe, while actually feeling satisfying. At least it's a way for me to actually appreciate the end of Homestuck. Maybe Hussie will talk about it in a news update at some point. I'm not a gambling man, but if I was, I would bet that the first thing they did after going through that door, was Pose as a team. The world is real.
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Post by thezcmme on Apr 14, 2016 2:49:36 GMT
This is going to be my last post for 4/13. I just want to say, no matter the ending. No matter what the future holds. It's been a great ride and I enjoyed spending it with this community. Homestuck was the first really fandom I felt apart of. Where I would look at all the fan content and take place in discussions and whatnot. It's been an absolute pleasure being in this fandom and I can't wait to see what the future holds. I thank you all.
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dldracorex
Jade Sylph
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Post by dldracorex on Apr 14, 2016 2:52:39 GMT
This will be my last post today as well. I just want to say that, whatever you think of Act 7, you should at least stick it out till the end of the Epilogue. We all made it this far, let's all finish this crazy journey together. I've said it twice before, and I've said I'd say it again, it has been an honor.
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Post by butternutpumpkin on Apr 14, 2016 3:01:03 GMT
Everything of significance Vriska ever does illustrates how terrible it is to want to be the hero of your own story rather than just living your life. Is that so? Man, that's an interesting and thematically fitting moral. Would have been nice if the story had actually illustrated that, instead of bending over backwards to bring her back to life, regressing her to her self-absorbed abusive self, and then portraying her as a hero in the final animation with absolutely no apparent comeuppance or lessons learned whatsoever, while her more developed counterpart that we spent hundreds of pages getting to know was abandoned by her girlfriend and then presumably fucking died, if not during Terezi:remem8er then almost certainly in the finale. The character that said these things never apologized, never learned anything new, and indeed was never acknowledged by herself, the other characters, or the narrative itself as having done anything wrong. She sure got to look badass doing a heroic anime pose in front of that juju house whatsit, though. This is why I wished the plan would have failed instead of going all smoothly. This new Vriska didn't deserve that awesome animation and being the one to defeat Lord English. It seemed to go that way with Collide, with Vriska's scenes all being nothing but a joke. But that quickly changed. I was hoping that (Vriska) would regain her backbone, get rid of that new getup and do something more awesome than Vriska could ever accomplish, but instead she got a terrible ending along with the other pre-retcon characters. It's just not right to have someone who said very abusive comments like that to be a hero and not have any sort of failure.
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Post by mysterypig on Apr 14, 2016 3:08:33 GMT
I think that when John was reaching for the handle and everything went black, it was the lilypad platform teleporting to the new universe, and that their old universe and paradox space "closed up" and became the white spirograph. And if it is a creation myth, and their world was the new earth, then the story continued outside of the comic, in our universe.
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