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Post by Neptz on May 9, 2016 1:10:04 GMT
I can really see this becoming kinda hard to do considering Homestuck has way more characters than pokemon. I can see that people are already wanting to hold off on making things sburbmon because evolution lines are more than already cluttered. Can you make pokemon from scratch? Maybe that'd ease things quite a bit.
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Post by invisibleTerrarium on May 9, 2016 1:39:53 GMT
1) Pokemon has about a million characters there will never be a shortage for that
2) The only ones we'd hold off on are the Dirkbot and Jadebot who A) don't really matter and B) dirk and jade have long convoluted evolution lines so it'd just be kind of difficult to shove them in somewhere
3) we can make pokemon from scratch (lol) but since those two specific robots are alternate forms of dirk and jade it probably makes more sense gameplay-wise to have them be part of that line
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Post by twixstix on May 9, 2016 6:23:23 GMT
Crowbar sprite.
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captain
Plucky Tot
Posts: 23
Pronouns: he/him/his
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Post by captain on May 9, 2016 12:03:08 GMT
Personally seeing as Brobot (which should be the name btw, idk why it's called Dirkbot when it's Brobot in canon) is far more of a relevant character than Trickster Dirk, I think it should absolutely be included (and if we're super not keen on having a three branch evo, just scrap Trickster Dirk. We have a three branch evo for Aradia though so I don't see why it's an issue?). I agree that Dreambot is definitely surplus though, so I'm all for scrapping that one. I would personally have the Skeletal Consorts as the same entity. Story-wise they do nothing different from one-another. Plus if we're going for Shadow's dex entry (which we should), I like the idea of this just being a particular individual Skeletal Consort and having it be Bone-Bone (who is a skeletal turtle, by the way). It means we don't need to bother with three exra sprites/movestes/sets of stats etc. Moveset changes: =============================== SKELETAL IMP (Cofagrigus) =============================== 1 Scratch 1 Leer 5 Astonish 9 Disable 13 Night Shade 17 Bone Rush 21 Will-O-Wisp 25 Shadow Claw 29 Curse 33 Recover 34 Scary Face 39 Hex 42 Endure 48 Shadow Ball 51 Mean Look 57 Destiny Bond Shadow Ball is now included. For the Cherubs, I'll wait to see if anyone else wants to make changes to them (including some suggested moves for the whole "learn in this level up learnset but is useful for other" thing) before doing so. I doubt that Caliborn will get a different Physical Fire move though. He has a serviceable enough Special Attack stat to make do with Flamethrower. I could potentially swap Flamethrower for Blaze Kick, but that's about it, honestly, and that would kinda waste his Special attacking potential personally. Maybe Flare Blitz and Leaf Storm could be relearner moves as well as level up moves to make up for that? In addition, I definitely agree about relearner moves being God Tier only. Speaking of which, Sketch will be a relearner move instead, and I'll swap it out for Stored Power. I want that move to be a Calliope specific move. I'll redo the Cherubs some other time though, as I said, and wait for people's responses first. =============================== DAVESPRITE =============================== 1 Ember 1 Flare Blitz 1 Scratch 1 Leer 1 Focus Energy 7 Ember 9 Focus Energy 15 Roost 16 Wing Attack 19 Flame Charge 26 Quick Attack 29 Double Team 34 Slash 36 Acrobatics 42 Fire Punch 52 Night Slash 54 Tailwind 58 Psycho Cut 64 Brave Bird 68 Flare Blitz =============================== JADESPRITE =============================== 1 Bullet Seed 1 Leaf Storm 1 Dragon Rage 1 Pound 1 Foresight 5 Bullet Seed 9 Foresight 13 Dragonbreath 16 Dragon Dance 18 Charming Cry 23 Magical Leaf 28 Fake Tears 33 Dragon Claw 36 Dragon Pulse 39 Hyper Voice 45 Seed Bomb 51 Outrage 57 Future Sight 63 Lock-On 66 Draco Meteor 70 Leaf Storm Blaze Kick is now Fire Punch, the final two moves for Davesprite have been reserved (what do we think about reversing Flare Blitz and Close Combat on GT Dave actually, seeing as Close Combat is currently the final move in his set?). I also swapped out Energy ball on Jadesprite for Seed Bomb. She gets Leaf Storm later so her Special Attacking potential isn't hurt too much, and I couldn't think of what else to get rid of. Also, really liking that Crowbar sprite.
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muffinz
Greentike
Posts: 4
Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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Post by muffinz on May 9, 2016 21:23:15 GMT
The main issue with the three-branch evolution lines IMO was having two of the eight kids inexplicably have a differently-structured evolution line from all the others. Aradia is designed to have an Eevee-like branching chain, whereas making Jade and Dirk alone have a larger line than the other six kids just makes them stand out unnecessarily. Now, Dirk DOES have his whole thing about "splinters", so it would actually be kind of fitting for him, out of all the kids, to have more branch evolutions. But if we are to give him an a Robostone evolution, I feel like making it Lil' Hal may be a bit better? Hal is a more major and prominent figure than the Brobot is, and he does have a canonical "human" design as seen in MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown. Maybe his type could be something like Steel/Ghost, to contrast Dave's Bro being Ice/Steel? I'm neutral on replacing Trickster Dirk, by the way. If we want to keep things a bit simpler, replacing him is a good idea. He barely has his own niche separate from regular Dirk anyways, so it wouldn't really affect much! It all depends on what works better in the game, really. At this point my only actual issue with combining the Skeletal Consorts is the thought of what we would do for the sprite. Would we just use a Turtle image for it? Because if that's the case, it would be a little weird to not call it a "Skeltal Turtle". I mean, on paper I like the idea of just representing them with one 'mon, because that trims things down and removes extraneous Sburbmon, but it becomes a little awkward when there is no singular, "generic" image that can all four types. Thinking about it further, I'm actually not sure if giving Callie Sketch at all is a very good idea, at least in her level-up list. It fits conceptually, but it can be VERY broken if the player goes out of their way to make her learn it multiple times. I feel like if she should get Sketch at all, it should be by breeding-- that way, she can only learn it one time, giving her only one impossible move at maximum. Of course, for that to be the case, something else would have to be capable of learning Sketch. And if that were the case, Caliborn would also be able to learn Sketch??? It's kind of a messy situation. I think for now, maybe we should remove Sketch entirely and try and figure something else out later. Davesprite looks good, and I agree with swapping the moves on regular GT Dave too. I totally forgot that Seed Bomb was a move that exists! Huh. Well, uh, it works! And Energy Ball would make a good TM move anyways, so she's probably not totally deprived of learning it. In other news, I've been thinking about some stats. I'm gonna try and re-do a few of the more recent ones, if nobody minds. Hope Angel: 120/35/70/75/70/90 (460)
I felt like all this one really needed to become moderately usable was a slight boost to its offense, just enough to let it actually KO stuff from time to time. It's still really bulky even with the dropped defenses, and the speed boost gives it a tiny bit more utility as a support 'mon. Still far from the strongest Sburbmon in the 'dex, but it may have at least some use on your team now.
Skeletal Consort: 55/75/130/55/120/15 (450)
I based these stats on the Skeletal Imp, going for a similar distribution, but slightly balanced them out by lowering the defenses and increasing the HP and Attack. The overall BST is lowered, to make it a bit closer to the power level of a regular Consort.
Rammom: 80/80/65/65/90/90 (470)
I don't know where she would appear and be catchable in the game, and as a stand-alone 'mon, her stats would partially depend on what is not overpowered for that portion of the game. So these are more of a "placeholder" for now, although I'd consider them decently fitting. She does seem like more of a physical attacker than special, based on her moveset and appearance.
Horsaponi: 56/60/51/30/56/62 (315)
Horsaroni: 86/90/71/50/86/102 (485)
I'm not sure if we are going with the evolution line thing here, but I made these stats with that in mind. The stats it had on the checklist were a good start, but they didn't fit it very well in my opinion, so I went ahead and reworked them. I hope I haven't made Horsaroni too powerful, but I felt that as a Fiduspawn monster, it could be sort of a special case that's a little bit stronger than other minor Homestuck characters. On another, tangentially-related topic, I've been thinking that Normal/Psychic isn't really a very fitting type for Jasprose. She really only has the Normal-type because she's evolved from Jaspersprite. But Jaspers' entire line probably needs a significant retooling now that Jasprose exists-- Jaspers in Sburbmon hasn't really changed since long before her introduction. Pure Normal is a fitting enough type for Jaspers, but with Jasprose in mind, would he work decently as a Normal/Fairy type? At the very least, he's got a decently good color scheme for it, and after he evolves he could become Psychic/Fairy as Jasprose, which I think is pretty well fitting for both her personality and her appearance. It's not a PERFECT solution, but I feel like it might be the best way to go about it.
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Post by nubaris on May 10, 2016 16:42:41 GMT
The main issue with the three-branch evolution lines IMO was having two of the eight kids inexplicably have a differently-structured evolution line from all the others. Aradia is designed to have an Eevee-like branching chain, whereas making Jade and Dirk alone have a larger line than the other six kids just makes them stand out unnecessarily. Now, Dirk DOES have his whole thing about "splinters", so it would actually be kind of fitting for him, out of all the kids, to have more branch evolutions. But if we are to give him an a Robostone evolution, I feel like making it Lil' Hal may be a bit better? Hal is a more major and prominent figure than the Brobot is, and he does have a canonical "human" design as seen in MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown. Maybe his type could be something like Steel/Ghost, to contrast Dave's Bro being Ice/Steel? I'm neutral on replacing Trickster Dirk, by the way. If we want to keep things a bit simpler, replacing him is a good idea. He barely has his own niche separate from regular Dirk anyways, so it wouldn't really affect much! It all depends on what works better in the game, really. I like Steel/Ghost Lil Hal! He could be in Lord English's team... Ghost/Rock Skelesquad? I thought about having Calliope learn Sketch in an event (a little like Meloetta)... Maybe in the Veil there is someone with a GT Calliope who can teach Sketch only one time (maybe the particular house where they lived is destroyed after you get Sketch and leave the Veil-city...? We could retool a Move Tutor for this) Psychic/Fairy Jasprose also sounds nice! I vaguely remember Magic Bounce/Own Tempo being possible abilities for her... Whatever we give her, I feel like evasiveness should be one of her 'things'. Would then Jaspers' line be something like Normal Jaspers --> Normal/Fairy Jaspersprite --> Psychic/Fairy Jasprose?
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Post by hebibebi on May 10, 2016 21:52:52 GMT
The main issue with the three-branch evolution lines IMO was having two of the eight kids inexplicably have a differently-structured evolution line from all the others. Aradia is designed to have an Eevee-like branching chain, whereas making Jade and Dirk alone have a larger line than the other six kids just makes them stand out unnecessarily. Now, Dirk DOES have his whole thing about "splinters", so it would actually be kind of fitting for him, out of all the kids, to have more branch evolutions. But if we are to give him an a Robostone evolution, I feel like making it Lil' Hal may be a bit better? Hal is a more major and prominent figure than the Brobot is, and he does have a canonical "human" design as seen in MSPA Reader: Mental Breakdown. Maybe his type could be something like Steel/Ghost, to contrast Dave's Bro being Ice/Steel? I'm neutral on replacing Trickster Dirk, by the way. If we want to keep things a bit simpler, replacing him is a good idea. He barely has his own niche separate from regular Dirk anyways, so it wouldn't really affect much! It all depends on what works better in the game, really. At this point my only actual issue with combining the Skeletal Consorts is the thought of what we would do for the sprite. Would we just use a Turtle image for it? Because if that's the case, it would be a little weird to not call it a "Skeltal Turtle". I mean, on paper I like the idea of just representing them with one 'mon, because that trims things down and removes extraneous Sburbmon, but it becomes a little awkward when there is no singular, "generic" image that can all four types. Thinking about it further, I'm actually not sure if giving Callie Sketch at all is a very good idea, at least in her level-up list. It fits conceptually, but it can be VERY broken if the player goes out of their way to make her learn it multiple times. I feel like if she should get Sketch at all, it should be by breeding-- that way, she can only learn it one time, giving her only one impossible move at maximum. Of course, for that to be the case, something else would have to be capable of learning Sketch. And if that were the case, Caliborn would also be able to learn Sketch??? It's kind of a messy situation. I think for now, maybe we should remove Sketch entirely and try and figure something else out later. Davesprite looks good, and I agree with swapping the moves on regular GT Dave too. I totally forgot that Seed Bomb was a move that exists! Huh. Well, uh, it works! And Energy Ball would make a good TM move anyways, so she's probably not totally deprived of learning it. In other news, I've been thinking about some stats. I'm gonna try and re-do a few of the more recent ones, if nobody minds. Hope Angel: 120/35/70/75/70/90 (460)
I felt like all this one really needed to become moderately usable was a slight boost to its offense, just enough to let it actually KO stuff from time to time. It's still really bulky even with the dropped defenses, and the speed boost gives it a tiny bit more utility as a support 'mon. Still far from the strongest Sburbmon in the 'dex, but it may have at least some use on your team now.
Skeletal Consort: 55/75/130/55/120/15 (450)
I based these stats on the Skeletal Imp, going for a similar distribution, but slightly balanced them out by lowering the defenses and increasing the HP and Attack. The overall BST is lowered, to make it a bit closer to the power level of a regular Consort.
Rammom: 80/80/65/65/90/90 (470)
I don't know where she would appear and be catchable in the game, and as a stand-alone 'mon, her stats would partially depend on what is not overpowered for that portion of the game. So these are more of a "placeholder" for now, although I'd consider them decently fitting. She does seem like more of a physical attacker than special, based on her moveset and appearance.
Horsaponi: 56/60/51/30/56/62 (315)
Horsaroni: 86/90/71/50/86/102 (485)
I'm not sure if we are going with the evolution line thing here, but I made these stats with that in mind. The stats it had on the checklist were a good start, but they didn't fit it very well in my opinion, so I went ahead and reworked them. I hope I haven't made Horsaroni too powerful, but I felt that as a Fiduspawn monster, it could be sort of a special case that's a little bit stronger than other minor Homestuck characters. On another, tangentially-related topic, I've been thinking that Normal/Psychic isn't really a very fitting type for Jasprose. She really only has the Normal-type because she's evolved from Jaspersprite. But Jaspers' entire line probably needs a significant retooling now that Jasprose exists-- Jaspers in Sburbmon hasn't really changed since long before her introduction. Pure Normal is a fitting enough type for Jaspers, but with Jasprose in mind, would he work decently as a Normal/Fairy type? At the very least, he's got a decently good color scheme for it, and after he evolves he could become Psychic/Fairy as Jasprose, which I think is pretty well fitting for both her personality and her appearance. It's not a PERFECT solution, but I feel like it might be the best way to go about it. If people go out of their way to break callie, oh well? It's not like this game is mutiplayer and people can go out of their way to use gameshark codes too. honestly trying to balance everything in a pokemon game is kinda moot, as gen three is kinda inherently broken as is.
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Post by TangledAlmond on May 11, 2016 2:25:34 GMT
Oh my god ok I have FINALLY gotten an Omegaupdate account and am ready to fucking thrOW MYSELF BACK INTO GAME DEV HELL YES.
I would like to comment on the potentially convoluted evolution lines but the problem is I'm really not sure what all of them are. We should make like a chart or something for that but anyway here are some words regardless.
One argument I'm seeing is how different Dirk and Jade's lines are from the rest of the kids. Who said they had to be similar, though? I could understand it if we were talking about say, the three starters or something, who obviously need to remain at similar power levels and whatnot. But that's because you can get them all at the same point in the game! Each kid is going to be gotten at different points, so there is no need to make sure they all have the same evolution lines and shit. Different stuff happened to Jade than stuff that happened to John! Why shouldn't we make her different then in Sburbmon?
Regarding convoluted lines, let me see if I can map out our potential Jade and Dirk lines. I need to make sure I have this right
For Jade we have Baby Jade -> Jade -> GT Jade, and branching off of those are evo's for Grandma, Jadesprite, and (potentially) Dreambot and Grimbark Jade. First of all I find it strange that Grandma (and all of the adult forms actually) evolve from Baby versions; I know this is because of Baby Jane -> Nanna -> Nannasprite, but just because it is applied to Jane, does that mean it has to apply to everyone? I just don't see the reason we really NEED to have Jane as the rule, rather than the exception, for all eight kids.
Of course, then I'm just arguing to give Jade even MORE evolutions. However, even if Jade does have 5 potential evolutions, I don't really see a problem with it? Jade, in-comic, just happened to take many more forms than the other kids did. Since this is the case, I don't see why we have to stick to giving all eight kids the same amount of evolutions.
I, personally, think that Dreambot should be in. It would be nice to have more Steel types, and I can imagine some unique things to do with it (dream moves, sleep moves, copying moves, explosive moves). However, since we don't like the evolution idea, I have another idea. Let's just make Dreambot separate from the Jade line completely, and have her be a standalone. This fits because in-comic, Dreambot didn't develop from Jade anyway (like her other evolutions did), and was just made separately. This also allows us freedom to give her a different moveset than Jade, filled with moves than can make her unique. I also think we should have her be a Sburbmon that is given to you (replacing Lapras perhaps) to make it less unusual that she is separate from the Jade line, like we could just have the guy in Silph Co. say he made this robot, do you want it? Stuff like that. I think it'd be cool, and it would slightly remedy the issue of Jade's many evo's.
Something else we discussed before the MSPA Forums closed down was adding Grimbark Jade and Crockertier Jane which we never finalized, and which I think is a fantastic idea, due to how iconic they are, and how they can get us more uses out of the Horrorstone. We can also have them be on the Condesce's team rather than just regular GT Jane and Jade, which would be peculiar. I want to start conceptualizing stats and stuff for them but I want to make sure we all agree on adding them first. (I think they should be Grass/Dark and Steel/Grass ;v;)
As for Dirk's line, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't add Brobot? Dirk's line isn't even crowded like Jade's is (he just has GT, adult, and trickster IIRC) and also Brobot is cool and we need more steel types and robots and we could give him moves like Extremespeed and stuff. If we want Lil' Hal in then I'm tempted to say we should do the same thing with Brobot that I'm suggesting we do with Dreambot, and have Hal be the robostone evo, but my question is, what would Hal add to the Dirk line that Dirk doesn't already have?
I also don't think we should take out Trickster Dirk, as we'd be taking out one of the only 5 tricksters we have, and it would be weird to have only 4 out of 5 of the canon tricksters. Plus, we'd be taking out a Fairy type, which we really do not have much of.
I strongly agree with muffinz's suggestion for the Jasprose line, I say we do it. It fits much better thematically and it would give us more Fairy types, which we need.
I have some ideas about the post-retcon sprite lines but that whole mess is a muddy area and I've already talked too much I guess I'll talk about it when conversation shifts in that direction.
tl;dr - the kids dont all have to be same evolutionwise - its weird how adults evolve from babies; maybe jane should be the exception not the rule? - let's make dreambot separate from the jade line - let's add grimbark jade and crockertier jane - let's keep brobot - what would lil hal add? - let's keep trickster dirk - let's do that thing muffinz said with jasprose
It's nice to be back and to see you all again! :>
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Post by shadowsandbag on May 11, 2016 19:40:30 GMT
Another solution if we want to keep evolution lines simple: We make a basic robot mon (Probably based off of Equius' robots) that can evolve into Aradiabot, Dreambot or Brobot/Lil Hal. Can we do the Mantyke evolution thing?
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Post by Igigigif on May 20, 2016 5:22:40 GMT
Glad this survived. Anyone here know what happened with the script and if it still needs work?
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thedude3445
Scampermaster
Homestuck? More like, Homo suck... oh wait...
Posts: 212
Pronouns: other (see signature)
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Post by thedude3445 on May 22, 2016 22:07:50 GMT
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Post by twixstix on May 24, 2016 2:49:41 GMT
With the script I've kinda just been going along and making stuff up as necessary, and asking for help when required. Right now the biggest script thing that needs doing is replacing the Felt text in LOCAS - since we're replacing the Felt Grunts with actual Felt Members, their current text lines feel kinda generic. If you or anybody else could make encounter text, defeat text, and post-defeat text for Itchy, Doze, Trace, and Clover in the context of raiding LOCAS for the fossils, that would be awesome.
And yes, thedude, it is indeed the same project! It's changed hands several times over the years, but it's still kicking.
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Post by shadowsandbag on May 24, 2016 21:57:44 GMT
Made some text for the grunts Itchy: Pre: AlrightLetsStartBattleingIDontHaveTimeToWasteWithYou. Defeat: Hah! I was running around searching this room while battling you! Post: Youll never beat all the felt! Doze: Pre: Hey...... Lets...... Battle...... Defeat: Oh..... I lost..... Post: Huh? ? Trace: Pre: You haven't seen any fossils have ya? Defeat: Guess following you would be a waste of time. Post: Stop running around everywhere, your past trail is hurting my eyes. Clover: Pre: *The strange frogman is dancing in an inviting manner* Defeat: You got lucky kid. Real Lucky. Post: *His dance has slowed and he seems less excited*
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Post by Neptz on May 25, 2016 16:58:09 GMT
Made some text for the grunts Itchy: Pre: AlrightLet'sStartBattlingIDontHaveTimeToWasteWithYou. Defeat: Hah! I was running around searching this room while battling you! Post: You'll never beat all of the Felt! Doze: Pre: Hey...... Let's...... Battle...... Defeat: Oh..... I lost..... Post: Huh? ? Trace: Pre: You haven't seen any fossils have ya? Defeat: Guess following you would be a waste of time. Post: Stop running around everywhere, your past trail is hurting my eyes. Clover: Pre: *The strange frogman is dancing in an inviting manner* Defeat: You got lucky kid. Real Lucky. Post: *His dance has slowed and he seems less excited* fixed a few things but otherwise is great
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Post by Ch4gr1nK1ngl3r on Jun 1, 2016 1:49:00 GMT
I can't seem to get the IPS file to work on my VBA? The Fire Red ROM works but when I patch the Sburbmon file onto the Fire Red ROM the VBA screen goes white and all I get is static through my speakers.
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Post by twixstix on Jun 1, 2016 2:04:52 GMT
Hm, I just fresh-patched a rom and I didn't encounter any errors. Are you using Lunar IPS or the auto-patch function of VBA?
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Post by Ch4gr1nK1ngl3r on Jun 1, 2016 2:18:31 GMT
I was using the auto-patch function on VBA at first but then tried Lunar IPS and the same thing happened on both accounts.
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Post by twixstix on Jun 1, 2016 3:33:43 GMT
Alright then, let's see. Your rom may be version 1.1. Look for a 1.0 rom and that should fix your problem.
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Post by Ch4gr1nK1ngl3r on Jun 1, 2016 3:43:03 GMT
Ah, it is. Thank you very much.
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Post by twixstix on Jun 2, 2016 4:26:18 GMT
LOPAN wip. Thoughts? I'm thinking it's actually probably going to be a LOPAN-themed area more that LOPAN proper, because tileset constraints are making the land a lot shorter than I originally wanted. Also grass clashed horribly so ground tiles are encounters a la caves.
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Post by shadowsandbag on Jun 2, 2016 21:54:24 GMT
Looks good. Is there anyway to make the encounter tiles noticeable though? I don't mind them not being grass, but darker tiles or something to point it out would be nice if possible.
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Post by twixstix on Jun 3, 2016 1:24:01 GMT
Good idea- how's this?
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Post by shadowsandbag on Jun 3, 2016 4:24:47 GMT
That looks amazing. Its really clear that its representing the grass and looks super sharp.
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Post by twixstix on Jun 18, 2016 23:00:04 GMT
Poking my head in for another update. I've fixed a bunch of bugs, and since I'm also using this patch to clean up some messy things, I'm taking the opportunity to update some of the other maps in the game. I've given the Abandoned Skaianet lab a small makeover. Here's a sneak peek on that. I'm going to start work on LOCAS next. After that I just need to put in the LOCAH tiles, change the text in the new areas, and give all the trainers proper teams. Speaking of that, I'd like to get the Felt's teams solid, or at least for the 4 of them you can encounter up to this point. Here's what I've got so far, for LOCAS: Itchy: High Speed stat mons. - Baby Jake, Lv 11 (72 base)
- Baby Dirk, Lv 11 (72 base)
Crow and Jaspers also have a Speed stat of 80, Lil Cal has 90, and Pounce surprisingly has 95. Potential alternate options? Doze: Low Speed stat mons.
- GrubGamzee, Lv 11 (30 base)
- GrubTerezi, Lv 11 (25 base)
Trace: - Tad stumped here. CC suggest a Strider, but who else?
Clover: Vriska. Also Karkat.
- GrubVriska, Lv 13
- GrubKarkat, Lv 13
Any suggestions?
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Post by shadowsandbag on Jun 19, 2016 4:27:55 GMT
Maybe GrubEridan (Since he looks like a shark) and/or GrubNepeta and Shale Imp (Since theyre the earliest mons you find and would therefore be part of your past trail)
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